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Author Topic: Empires Previews #5: Events  (Read 17791 times)

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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2016, 12:28:46 pm »
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Dominate is beautiful. Thank you Donald X. for making this card. You are a God. VP expansion here we come!!!
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Awaclus

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2016, 12:31:59 pm »
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Windfall seems weak. If you're drawing your deck, you usually don't want Golds. But I could be wrong there.

Well, yes and no. The reason why you don't want Golds is that you're trying to draw your deck and having the Golds in your deck would make it more difficult, and that Golds are a very inefficient payload since they only add $3 of buying power for $6. Windfall doesn't have these problems so much because you're already drawing your deck at the time when you're going for it and you get $9 of buying power for $5 which is good enough. I don't think it's super amazing because it still takes up three deck slots, but that's not always a big problem.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2016, 12:33:46 pm »
+2

New piledriving achievement: Buy out the Provinces in one turn by ONLY using Dominate.

I seem to remember one poorly-thought-out game I played where I hit way above $8 a bunch of turns in a row but there was no +Buy on the board. If only...

Windfall looks really good for Golden Deck variants, or possibly engines that get a bit delayed in buying payload. Triumph sounds like it could be a key part of a ton of forced wins.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2016, 12:34:37 pm »
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Triumph seems really, really strong, especially because you can pay the next turn for the VP you gain.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2016, 12:35:54 pm »
+1

So there are 13 events and 21 landmarks, that leaves 266 kingdom cards/randomizers. 24 piles, one of which is a victory pile, would fit exactly.
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AJD

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2016, 12:36:37 pm »
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Dominate really seems crazy. Previously, $16 and an extra buy would get you 12 points.

14 on a Colony board.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2016, 12:39:19 pm »
+2

Dominate really seems crazy. Previously, $16 and an extra buy would get you 12 points. In any game that has Dominate, you'll never (edge case blah blah) buy 2 Provinces on a turn.

I feel like you can make almost the exact same point about Colony though, right? Prior to Colony, a $13 turn with an extra buy got you 9 victory points, but with Colony you got 10 for $11 without needing an extra buy. It was also better to gain a Colony and a Duchy than 2 Provinces for the same cost. Colony will show up in a lot more games than Dominate if you're going full random though, and there is still the edge case of buying 2 Provinces to end the game.
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Ankenaut

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2016, 12:39:44 pm »
+1

Dominate isn't subject to cost reduction like other cards either, so it's even harder to get than a hypothetical $14 Victory card that gives 15vp.
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Awaclus

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2016, 12:41:28 pm »
0

Windfall looks really good for Golden Deck variants, or possibly engines that get a bit delayed in buying payload. Triumph sounds like it could be a key part of a ton of forced wins.

The idea of Golden Deck variants is that you play the same cards every turn. This is sometimes done by not having any other cards in the deck, and in those cases, adding more cards to your deck ruins the entire strategy. It's not as bad in the other kinds of Golden Decks (like KC/Scavenger) because in those decks, it just doesn't do anything when you buy it.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 12:42:49 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2016, 12:41:47 pm »
+2

Dominate isn't subject to cost reduction like other cards either, so it's even harder to get than a hypothetical $14 Victory card that gives 15vp.

Even better: It counters Rebuild.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2016, 12:49:34 pm »
+1

Dominate isn't subject to cost reduction like other cards either, so it's even harder to get than a hypothetical $14 Victory card that gives 15vp.

Even more significant is the lack of corresponding treasure. Platinum is very important in Colony games, but you only have Golds as payload to hit 14 in Dominate games. Certainly achievable, but moneyish decks have no hope.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2016, 12:50:00 pm »
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Windfall looks really good for Golden Deck variants, or possibly engines that get a bit delayed in buying payload. Triumph sounds like it could be a key part of a ton of forced wins.

The idea of Golden Deck variants is that you play the same cards every turn. This is sometimes done by not having any other cards in the deck, and in those cases, adding more cards to your deck ruins the entire strategy. It's not as bad in the other kinds of Golden Decks (like KC/Scavenger) because in those decks, it just doesn't do anything when you buy it.

The deck containing [3 Gold, 3 Bishop, 4 Wharf, 4 Bazaar] can Bishop 3 Golds every turn and purchase Triumph.  Baring an available discard attack, it seems perfectly Golden to me.

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2016, 12:50:59 pm »
+2

I just realized that BGG now has the fixed Pathfinding card. While unrelated it is an Event.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2016, 12:51:44 pm »
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Triumph allows for Rats pileouts that end the game to now come attached to 10+ VP. It seems like it can be very powerful in the right kingdom. Buffs Treasure Hunter, Masterpiece, Raid, and other such cards. Buffs empty-the-supply strategies as well, for what that's worth.

I like Windfall, but I worry that it's too situational to see too much use in full-random. 3 Golds is awesome though. Extra fodder for TfB even. Just an excellent source of money surge in an engine.

Dominate, well people like Colony and I imagine people will like this. I see this as an elegant way to create something even bigger than Colony that still drives the game towards a conclusion. All while only requiring am Event an VP tokens as setup.

Is it more likely to play a game with Colony or with Dominate when playing full random with all recommended setup rules.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2016, 12:57:04 pm »
+2

Updating my calculation from yesterday: we're going to be playing with a lot of landmarks/events on average after Empires.

Using the recommendation of a 2 event/landmark limit, the negative binomial approximation to the negative hypergeometric distribution, and assuming 55 total events/landmarks and 260 total kingdom cards (which I believe assumes 24 kingdom cards in Empires)

Chance of 0 events/landmarks: 14.7%
Chance of 1 events/landmarks: 25.6%
Chance of 2 events/landmarks: 59.7%

Average events/landmarks: 1.45. The chance of any given event/landmark appearing is 1.45/55 = 2.6%.

The 2 event/landmark guideline matters quite a bit: if there was no limit, 35% of games would have more than 2 landmarks/events and there would be an average of 2.11 events/landmarks.
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jsmarvin

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2016, 12:58:08 pm »
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Dominate really seems crazy. Previously, $16 and an extra buy would get you 12 points. In any game that has Dominate, you'll never (edge case blah blah) buy 2 Provinces on a turn.

I feel like you can make almost the exact same point about Colony though, right? Prior to Colony, a $13 turn with an extra buy got you 9 victory points, but with Colony you got 10 for $11 without needing an extra buy. It was also better to gain a Colony and a Duchy than 2 Provinces for the same cost. Colony will show up in a lot more games than Dominate if you're going full random though, and there is still the edge case of buying 2 Provinces to end the game.

Dominate in a Colony game will also make some interesting changes. A Colony game ends fairly often with the Colony pile being exhausted, i.e. in a Colony game Provinces are the consolation prize. With Dominate in the game it's likely there will be more balance between the Province pile and the Colony pile. If you have $22 there's only 1 VP difference between 2 Colony's and 1 Dominate + 1 Province, so near the end of the game you may be making the choice based on which one ends the game.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2016, 12:58:44 pm »
+1

Dominate really seems crazy. Previously, $16 and an extra buy would get you 12 points. In any game that has Dominate, you'll never (edge case blah blah) buy 2 Provinces on a turn.

Case that is not very edgy:  I'm down 6-12 points with 2 Provinces left in the pile.  I have $16 and 2 buys.
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werothegreat

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2016, 01:01:41 pm »
+2

Windfall seems weak. If you're drawing your deck, you usually don't want Golds. But I could be wrong there.

I think you're wrong there... quite often you'll build up a great engine that can draw your deck and generate multiple buys; but still only end up with $15 or so money to spend. I remember many games where I've bought a Province and a Silver, then later a Province and a Gold, then finally could move on to 2 Provinces. This gives you a whole new way to build up an engine and then quickly add payload.

Yeah, you've never had an "oops, I've got too many Laboratories" moment?
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2016, 01:02:03 pm »
+3

Triumph only needs 1 other gained card to be better than Duchy -- you get 3VP total (2 from gained cards, including Estate, plus the value of the Estate itself) and the cost is in Debt, so you don't even have to pay it all this turn if you don't want to.  With a little bit of +Buy, it's easy to do better.  This sounds game-warping to me, even more than Dominate.

Windfall rewards drawing your deck -- that's cool.  The funny thing is that all that Gold often hurts that deck, but it can be nice for trim over-drawing engines that need a quick economy boost.

Somebody predicted "VP above Colony" for Dominate.  Kudos to them!  I think doing it as an Event is pretty clever.  I wonder if it started as an actual VP card and then got changed to an Event so that games wouldn't drag on too long (or so that more stuff could be put in the Empires box).  An actual $14-cost VP card might never be bought out (especially without Platinum), but tying it to Provinces solves that problem and is a neat twist to boot.

The person in Windfall... is she a particularly lucky Treasure Hunter?  Different artist, different clothing, but still...
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2016, 01:03:11 pm »
0

Dominate isn't subject to cost reduction like other cards either, so it's even harder to get than a hypothetical $14 Victory card that gives 15vp.

Even better: It counters Rebuild.

I think it would be better against Rebuild if it was a card. With it gaining Provinces, you help the Rebuild player ending the game more quickly.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2016, 01:03:56 pm »
+1

Dominate really seems crazy. Previously, $16 and an extra buy would get you 12 points. In any game that has Dominate, you'll never (edge case blah blah) buy 2 Provinces on a turn.

Case that is not very edgy:  I'm down 6-12 points with 2 Provinces left in the pile.  I have $16 and 2 buys.

You don't even need to be down in score.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2016, 01:05:20 pm »
+5

Updating my calculation from yesterday: we're going to be playing with a lot of landmarks/events on average after Empires.

Using the recommendation of a 2 event/landmark limit, the negative binomial approximation to the negative hypergeometric distribution, and assuming 55 total events/landmarks and 260 total kingdom cards (which I believe assumes 24 kingdom cards in Empires)

Chance of 0 events/landmarks: 14.7%
Chance of 1 events/landmarks: 25.6%
Chance of 2 events/landmarks: 59.7%

Average events/landmarks: 1.45. The chance of any given event/landmark appearing is 1.45/55 = 2.6%.

The 2 event/landmark guideline matters quite a bit: if there was no limit, 35% of games would have more than 2 landmarks/events and there would be an average of 2.11 events/landmarks.

Cross-posting from the other thread; this does not use the approximation, should be exact.

Without limiting to 2, I get:

Chance of 0 Events/Landmarks: 14.230%
Chance of 1 Events/Landmarks: 25.661%
Chance of 2 Events/Landmarks: 25.070%
Chance of 3 Events/Landmarks: 17.541%
Chance of 4 Events/Landmarks: 9.816%
Chance of 5 Events/Landmarks: 4.657%
Chance of 6 Events/Landmarks: 1.940%
Chance of 7 Events/Landmarks: 0.727%
Chance of 8 Events/Landmarks: 0.249%
Chance of 9 Events/Landmarks: 0.079%
Chance of 10 Events/Landmarks: 0.023%
Chance of 11 Events/Landmarks: 0.006%
Chance of 12 Events/Landmarks: 0.002%

Chance of 2+ Events/Landmarks: 60.109%
Chance of 4+ Events/Landmarks: 17.499%

A limit of 4 total and picking 0-4 as 20% each is actually not a bad approximation, if you don't feel like shuffling 315 cards...

To answer the Colony/Dominate question: The probability of Colony is 25/260 (~9.6%); the probability of Dominate is about ~2.7% (limiting to 2 total Events/Landmarks), ~3.8% (without limiting).
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2016, 01:05:27 pm »
0

Windfall seems weak. If you're drawing your deck, you usually don't want Golds. But I could be wrong there.

I think you're wrong there... quite often you'll build up a great engine that can draw your deck and generate multiple buys; but still only end up with $15 or so money to spend. I remember many games where I've bought a Province and a Silver, then later a Province and a Gold, then finally could move on to 2 Provinces. This gives you a whole new way to build up an engine and then quickly add payload.

Yeah, you've never had an "oops, I've got too many Laboratories" moment?

This would have been a life saver on my default Base board back in the day. I always had to take a few turns to buy Golds before finishing my engine and then my opponent would get ahead. No need anymore! Except I've retired that board. And that strategy.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2016, 01:06:20 pm »
+1

Dominate isn't subject to cost reduction like other cards either, so it's even harder to get than a hypothetical $14 Victory card that gives 15vp.

Even better: It counters Rebuild.

I think it would be better against Rebuild if it was a card. With it gaining Provinces, you help the Rebuild player ending the game more quickly.

Yeah but two of those is already better than what rebuild does
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2016, 01:06:57 pm »
+1

Dominate is a Contraband buff.

Though honestly, all Events are Contraband buffs.  Except maybe Alms.
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