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Author Topic: Empires Previews #5: Events  (Read 17363 times)

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Donald X.

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Empires Previews #5: Events
« on: May 13, 2016, 12:09:39 pm »
+30

Empires brings back Events. They were fun but I did everything I could think of to do with them in Adventures. But well, this set had new stuff; maybe that new stuff would allow for more Events? In fact of thirteen new Events, nine involve either VP tokens or Debt or both



Triumph has both a Debt cost and a VP token payout. It's like a Victory card that rewards you for getting a lot of cards in one turn, and is represented in your deck with an Estate that you can maybe get rid of. The Debt cost helps you afford it after buying other cards; and hey, if you don't think you're getting another turn, why not go out in Debt and up a few points.

Windfall is one of the four Events that don't involve tokens. If you can manage to get your whole deck into play / your hand / the trash, you can get three Golds for cheap. It's a mini-game.

Dominate is like a new Victory card above Colony - $14 for 15 VP. But instead of a pile, it's just this Event; and you use Provinces for the Victory card, so buying Provinces also runs out the Dominates.

That's it for previews, not counting today's other preview, which is a doozy. We currently expect the set out on May 25, which I believe is when it ships not when it's in stores. I will post the Secret History around when people start to get the actual cards.
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jonts26

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2016, 12:14:58 pm »
+3

This expansion is adding an absurd amount of potential extra points to games.

I love it.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 12:19:16 pm by jonts26 »
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crlundy

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2016, 12:15:43 pm »
+2

Love the Windfall art. A lot.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2016, 12:15:52 pm »
0

Dominate is really cool. It also feels very final to have something called Dominate in Dominion; I hope this doesn't mean this is the last expansion.

Windfall seems weak. If you're drawing your deck, you usually don't want Golds. But I could be wrong there.

math

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2016, 12:19:08 pm »
+1

Triumph looks particularly interesting, and really strong.  It really seems like a last-turn kind of card.  Of course, I would also buy it after playing Treasure Hunter or buying Stonemason or something.  If you have enough +Buy, this can be a Province or more.  This will make Goons even more ridiculous.

Windfall:  This is good, but not that interesting.  Build your engine first, then get the money all at once.

Dominate:  This will definitely change games a lot.  Is it even possible for BM to win in a game with this where any engine exists?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2016, 12:19:30 pm »
+6

Windfall seems weak. If you're drawing your deck, you usually don't want Golds. But I could be wrong there.

I think you're wrong there... quite often you'll build up a great engine that can draw your deck and generate multiple buys; but still only end up with $15 or so money to spend. I remember many games where I've bought a Province and a Silver, then later a Province and a Gold, then finally could move on to 2 Provinces. This gives you a whole new way to build up an engine and then quickly add payload.
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DLloyd09

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2016, 12:19:46 pm »
0


Edit: deleted
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 05:49:17 pm by DLloyd09 »
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spiralstaircase

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2016, 12:20:08 pm »
+10

That's it for previews, not counting today's other preview, which is a doozy.

Is it an Action - Doozy or an Event - Doozy?
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2016, 12:20:36 pm »
+9

Dominate is really cool. It also feels very final to have something called Dominate in Dominion; I hope this doesn't mean this is the last expansion.
We'll get 21 VP for $17 in 6 years.
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ben_king

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2016, 12:21:41 pm »
+5

Dominate is really cool. It also feels very final to have something called Dominate in Dominion; I hope this doesn't mean this is the last expansion.

Windfall seems weak. If you're drawing your deck, you usually don't want Golds. But I could be wrong there.

Not weak at all.  It's a great way to add payload.  Way easier than lining up treasure maps.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2016, 12:21:44 pm »
0

Dominate really seems crazy. Previously, $16 and an extra buy would get you 12 points. In any game that has Dominate, you'll never (edge case blah blah) buy 2 Provinces on a turn.
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math

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2016, 12:21:51 pm »
0

Windfall seems weak. If you're drawing your deck, you usually don't want Golds. But I could be wrong there.

I disagree.  Often I find myself trashing really thin, building a sleek engine, and then having to buy money to give myself some economy (if the engine cards don't do enough of that).  Buying Windfall will help a lot.  You probably only want it once, though.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2016, 12:21:57 pm »
0

Windfall is pretty awesome. Draw your deck, have $5, and the amount of money in your deck immediately increases from 5 to 14. Sometimes, in engines, you really want to double Province but you can only increase payload very slowly, and you still need to add drawing cards as well if you still want to draw your deck. Windfall is a huge boost to engines.

Dominate is pretty sick as well, and I think it's a high-skill card (well, Event) - do you piledrive the Provinces or go for the slower Dominate road? I guess it also enables Engines or strong Big Money decks without +Buy. Or how about a Golden Deck consisting of Bishop/Pt/Pt/Gold/Province, buying Dominate each turn? Wow.

Triumph is a bit harder to see the point of, but I guess it can be used as a post-hoc Goons-ish card.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2016, 12:22:06 pm »
+1

Dominate is really cool. It also feels very final to have something called Dominate in Dominion; I hope this doesn't mean this is the last expansion.

Windfall seems weak. If you're drawing your deck, you usually don't want Golds. But I could be wrong there.

Chapel openings now mean you can trash anything and get 3 golds. Seem with steward and other strong trashers.
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crlundy

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2016, 12:22:25 pm »
0

If you can pull off Windfall, then $5 for 3 Golds is a steal. Still feels like it will be a very situational Event.

Also, any edge cases to how you could buy multiple Windfalls and get Golds each time?
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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2016, 12:23:08 pm »
0

Windfall seems weak. If you're drawing your deck, you usually don't want Golds. But I could be wrong there.

I think you're wrong there... quite often you'll build up a great engine that can draw your deck and generate multiple buys; but still only end up with $15 or so money to spend. I remember many games where I've bought a Province and a Silver, then later a Province and a Gold, then finally could move on to 2 Provinces. This gives you a whole new way to build up an engine and then quickly add payload.

Also you can just trash all your money to replace it with 3 golds. Except you need 5 money.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 12:24:11 pm by Watno »
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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2016, 12:23:26 pm »
+6

If you can pull off Windfall, then $5 for 3 Golds is a steal. Still feels like it will be a very situational Event.

Also, any edge cases to how you could buy multiple Windfalls and get Golds each time?

trash them with Watchtower.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2016, 12:23:28 pm »
+3

If you can pull off Windfall, then $5 for 3 Golds is a steal. Still feels like it will be a very situational Event.

Also, any edge cases to how you could buy multiple Windfalls and get Golds each time?

Now that Villa exists, just about any theoretical thing is possible. And certainly Villa will allow you to do multiple Windfalls.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2016, 12:23:35 pm »
0

Windfall seems weak. If you're drawing your deck, you usually don't want Golds. But I could be wrong there.

I think you're wrong there... quite often you'll build up a great engine that can draw your deck and generate multiple buys; but still only end up with $15 or so money to spend. I remember many games where I've bought a Province and a Silver, then later a Province and a Gold, then finally could move on to 2 Provinces. This gives you a whole new way to build up an engine and then quickly add payload.

Good point. It's also interesting that, along with Tomb, this is completely useless in some games. I guess Donald decided that there are enough cards now that that doesn't matter.

ced

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2016, 12:24:21 pm »
+2

I wonder if the victory card above Colony was going to be called Dominion before it got remade into this event.
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wachsmuth

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2016, 12:25:04 pm »
+2

Triumph-Beggar megaturn! Probably gonna be extremely situational, but there will be boards where this is the best strategy.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2016, 12:25:27 pm »
0

If you can pull off Windfall, then $5 for 3 Golds is a steal. Still feels like it will be a very situational Event.

Also, any edge cases to how you could buy multiple Windfalls and get Golds each time?

Villa
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pst

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2016, 12:27:40 pm »
+6

New feeling to have during a Colony game: "Oh no, I only have $13, so I'll settle for a Colony for just 10 points."
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2016, 12:28:06 pm »
0

It would be funny to end the game on a 3pile on Gold, Villa, estate using Windfall and Triumph :D
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Ankenaut

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2016, 12:28:26 pm »
+1

Now that previews are (mostly) over, can you talk about the number of each denomination of VP tokens or whether or not there are any other kinds of tokens?
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2016, 12:28:46 pm »
0

Dominate is beautiful. Thank you Donald X. for making this card. You are a God. VP expansion here we come!!!
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2016, 12:31:59 pm »
0

Windfall seems weak. If you're drawing your deck, you usually don't want Golds. But I could be wrong there.

Well, yes and no. The reason why you don't want Golds is that you're trying to draw your deck and having the Golds in your deck would make it more difficult, and that Golds are a very inefficient payload since they only add $3 of buying power for $6. Windfall doesn't have these problems so much because you're already drawing your deck at the time when you're going for it and you get $9 of buying power for $5 which is good enough. I don't think it's super amazing because it still takes up three deck slots, but that's not always a big problem.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2016, 12:33:46 pm »
+2

New piledriving achievement: Buy out the Provinces in one turn by ONLY using Dominate.

I seem to remember one poorly-thought-out game I played where I hit way above $8 a bunch of turns in a row but there was no +Buy on the board. If only...

Windfall looks really good for Golden Deck variants, or possibly engines that get a bit delayed in buying payload. Triumph sounds like it could be a key part of a ton of forced wins.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2016, 12:34:37 pm »
0

Triumph seems really, really strong, especially because you can pay the next turn for the VP you gain.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2016, 12:35:54 pm »
+1

So there are 13 events and 21 landmarks, that leaves 266 kingdom cards/randomizers. 24 piles, one of which is a victory pile, would fit exactly.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2016, 12:36:37 pm »
0

Dominate really seems crazy. Previously, $16 and an extra buy would get you 12 points.

14 on a Colony board.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2016, 12:39:19 pm »
+2

Dominate really seems crazy. Previously, $16 and an extra buy would get you 12 points. In any game that has Dominate, you'll never (edge case blah blah) buy 2 Provinces on a turn.

I feel like you can make almost the exact same point about Colony though, right? Prior to Colony, a $13 turn with an extra buy got you 9 victory points, but with Colony you got 10 for $11 without needing an extra buy. It was also better to gain a Colony and a Duchy than 2 Provinces for the same cost. Colony will show up in a lot more games than Dominate if you're going full random though, and there is still the edge case of buying 2 Provinces to end the game.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2016, 12:39:44 pm »
+1

Dominate isn't subject to cost reduction like other cards either, so it's even harder to get than a hypothetical $14 Victory card that gives 15vp.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2016, 12:41:28 pm »
0

Windfall looks really good for Golden Deck variants, or possibly engines that get a bit delayed in buying payload. Triumph sounds like it could be a key part of a ton of forced wins.

The idea of Golden Deck variants is that you play the same cards every turn. This is sometimes done by not having any other cards in the deck, and in those cases, adding more cards to your deck ruins the entire strategy. It's not as bad in the other kinds of Golden Decks (like KC/Scavenger) because in those decks, it just doesn't do anything when you buy it.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 12:42:49 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2016, 12:41:47 pm »
+2

Dominate isn't subject to cost reduction like other cards either, so it's even harder to get than a hypothetical $14 Victory card that gives 15vp.

Even better: It counters Rebuild.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2016, 12:49:34 pm »
+1

Dominate isn't subject to cost reduction like other cards either, so it's even harder to get than a hypothetical $14 Victory card that gives 15vp.

Even more significant is the lack of corresponding treasure. Platinum is very important in Colony games, but you only have Golds as payload to hit 14 in Dominate games. Certainly achievable, but moneyish decks have no hope.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2016, 12:50:00 pm »
0

Windfall looks really good for Golden Deck variants, or possibly engines that get a bit delayed in buying payload. Triumph sounds like it could be a key part of a ton of forced wins.

The idea of Golden Deck variants is that you play the same cards every turn. This is sometimes done by not having any other cards in the deck, and in those cases, adding more cards to your deck ruins the entire strategy. It's not as bad in the other kinds of Golden Decks (like KC/Scavenger) because in those decks, it just doesn't do anything when you buy it.

The deck containing [3 Gold, 3 Bishop, 4 Wharf, 4 Bazaar] can Bishop 3 Golds every turn and purchase Triumph.  Baring an available discard attack, it seems perfectly Golden to me.

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2016, 12:50:59 pm »
+2

I just realized that BGG now has the fixed Pathfinding card. While unrelated it is an Event.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2016, 12:51:44 pm »
0

Triumph allows for Rats pileouts that end the game to now come attached to 10+ VP. It seems like it can be very powerful in the right kingdom. Buffs Treasure Hunter, Masterpiece, Raid, and other such cards. Buffs empty-the-supply strategies as well, for what that's worth.

I like Windfall, but I worry that it's too situational to see too much use in full-random. 3 Golds is awesome though. Extra fodder for TfB even. Just an excellent source of money surge in an engine.

Dominate, well people like Colony and I imagine people will like this. I see this as an elegant way to create something even bigger than Colony that still drives the game towards a conclusion. All while only requiring am Event an VP tokens as setup.

Is it more likely to play a game with Colony or with Dominate when playing full random with all recommended setup rules.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2016, 12:57:04 pm »
+2

Updating my calculation from yesterday: we're going to be playing with a lot of landmarks/events on average after Empires.

Using the recommendation of a 2 event/landmark limit, the negative binomial approximation to the negative hypergeometric distribution, and assuming 55 total events/landmarks and 260 total kingdom cards (which I believe assumes 24 kingdom cards in Empires)

Chance of 0 events/landmarks: 14.7%
Chance of 1 events/landmarks: 25.6%
Chance of 2 events/landmarks: 59.7%

Average events/landmarks: 1.45. The chance of any given event/landmark appearing is 1.45/55 = 2.6%.

The 2 event/landmark guideline matters quite a bit: if there was no limit, 35% of games would have more than 2 landmarks/events and there would be an average of 2.11 events/landmarks.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2016, 12:58:08 pm »
0

Dominate really seems crazy. Previously, $16 and an extra buy would get you 12 points. In any game that has Dominate, you'll never (edge case blah blah) buy 2 Provinces on a turn.

I feel like you can make almost the exact same point about Colony though, right? Prior to Colony, a $13 turn with an extra buy got you 9 victory points, but with Colony you got 10 for $11 without needing an extra buy. It was also better to gain a Colony and a Duchy than 2 Provinces for the same cost. Colony will show up in a lot more games than Dominate if you're going full random though, and there is still the edge case of buying 2 Provinces to end the game.

Dominate in a Colony game will also make some interesting changes. A Colony game ends fairly often with the Colony pile being exhausted, i.e. in a Colony game Provinces are the consolation prize. With Dominate in the game it's likely there will be more balance between the Province pile and the Colony pile. If you have $22 there's only 1 VP difference between 2 Colony's and 1 Dominate + 1 Province, so near the end of the game you may be making the choice based on which one ends the game.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2016, 12:58:44 pm »
+1

Dominate really seems crazy. Previously, $16 and an extra buy would get you 12 points. In any game that has Dominate, you'll never (edge case blah blah) buy 2 Provinces on a turn.

Case that is not very edgy:  I'm down 6-12 points with 2 Provinces left in the pile.  I have $16 and 2 buys.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2016, 01:01:41 pm »
+2

Windfall seems weak. If you're drawing your deck, you usually don't want Golds. But I could be wrong there.

I think you're wrong there... quite often you'll build up a great engine that can draw your deck and generate multiple buys; but still only end up with $15 or so money to spend. I remember many games where I've bought a Province and a Silver, then later a Province and a Gold, then finally could move on to 2 Provinces. This gives you a whole new way to build up an engine and then quickly add payload.

Yeah, you've never had an "oops, I've got too many Laboratories" moment?
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2016, 01:02:03 pm »
+3

Triumph only needs 1 other gained card to be better than Duchy -- you get 3VP total (2 from gained cards, including Estate, plus the value of the Estate itself) and the cost is in Debt, so you don't even have to pay it all this turn if you don't want to.  With a little bit of +Buy, it's easy to do better.  This sounds game-warping to me, even more than Dominate.

Windfall rewards drawing your deck -- that's cool.  The funny thing is that all that Gold often hurts that deck, but it can be nice for trim over-drawing engines that need a quick economy boost.

Somebody predicted "VP above Colony" for Dominate.  Kudos to them!  I think doing it as an Event is pretty clever.  I wonder if it started as an actual VP card and then got changed to an Event so that games wouldn't drag on too long (or so that more stuff could be put in the Empires box).  An actual $14-cost VP card might never be bought out (especially without Platinum), but tying it to Provinces solves that problem and is a neat twist to boot.

The person in Windfall... is she a particularly lucky Treasure Hunter?  Different artist, different clothing, but still...
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2016, 01:03:11 pm »
0

Dominate isn't subject to cost reduction like other cards either, so it's even harder to get than a hypothetical $14 Victory card that gives 15vp.

Even better: It counters Rebuild.

I think it would be better against Rebuild if it was a card. With it gaining Provinces, you help the Rebuild player ending the game more quickly.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2016, 01:03:56 pm »
+1

Dominate really seems crazy. Previously, $16 and an extra buy would get you 12 points. In any game that has Dominate, you'll never (edge case blah blah) buy 2 Provinces on a turn.

Case that is not very edgy:  I'm down 6-12 points with 2 Provinces left in the pile.  I have $16 and 2 buys.

You don't even need to be down in score.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2016, 01:05:20 pm »
+5

Updating my calculation from yesterday: we're going to be playing with a lot of landmarks/events on average after Empires.

Using the recommendation of a 2 event/landmark limit, the negative binomial approximation to the negative hypergeometric distribution, and assuming 55 total events/landmarks and 260 total kingdom cards (which I believe assumes 24 kingdom cards in Empires)

Chance of 0 events/landmarks: 14.7%
Chance of 1 events/landmarks: 25.6%
Chance of 2 events/landmarks: 59.7%

Average events/landmarks: 1.45. The chance of any given event/landmark appearing is 1.45/55 = 2.6%.

The 2 event/landmark guideline matters quite a bit: if there was no limit, 35% of games would have more than 2 landmarks/events and there would be an average of 2.11 events/landmarks.

Cross-posting from the other thread; this does not use the approximation, should be exact.

Without limiting to 2, I get:

Chance of 0 Events/Landmarks: 14.230%
Chance of 1 Events/Landmarks: 25.661%
Chance of 2 Events/Landmarks: 25.070%
Chance of 3 Events/Landmarks: 17.541%
Chance of 4 Events/Landmarks: 9.816%
Chance of 5 Events/Landmarks: 4.657%
Chance of 6 Events/Landmarks: 1.940%
Chance of 7 Events/Landmarks: 0.727%
Chance of 8 Events/Landmarks: 0.249%
Chance of 9 Events/Landmarks: 0.079%
Chance of 10 Events/Landmarks: 0.023%
Chance of 11 Events/Landmarks: 0.006%
Chance of 12 Events/Landmarks: 0.002%

Chance of 2+ Events/Landmarks: 60.109%
Chance of 4+ Events/Landmarks: 17.499%

A limit of 4 total and picking 0-4 as 20% each is actually not a bad approximation, if you don't feel like shuffling 315 cards...

To answer the Colony/Dominate question: The probability of Colony is 25/260 (~9.6%); the probability of Dominate is about ~2.7% (limiting to 2 total Events/Landmarks), ~3.8% (without limiting).
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2016, 01:05:27 pm »
0

Windfall seems weak. If you're drawing your deck, you usually don't want Golds. But I could be wrong there.

I think you're wrong there... quite often you'll build up a great engine that can draw your deck and generate multiple buys; but still only end up with $15 or so money to spend. I remember many games where I've bought a Province and a Silver, then later a Province and a Gold, then finally could move on to 2 Provinces. This gives you a whole new way to build up an engine and then quickly add payload.

Yeah, you've never had an "oops, I've got too many Laboratories" moment?

This would have been a life saver on my default Base board back in the day. I always had to take a few turns to buy Golds before finishing my engine and then my opponent would get ahead. No need anymore! Except I've retired that board. And that strategy.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2016, 01:06:20 pm »
+1

Dominate isn't subject to cost reduction like other cards either, so it's even harder to get than a hypothetical $14 Victory card that gives 15vp.

Even better: It counters Rebuild.

I think it would be better against Rebuild if it was a card. With it gaining Provinces, you help the Rebuild player ending the game more quickly.

Yeah but two of those is already better than what rebuild does
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2016, 01:06:57 pm »
+1

Dominate is a Contraband buff.

Though honestly, all Events are Contraband buffs.  Except maybe Alms.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2016, 01:12:34 pm »
0

9 VP is a lot, like so much you can basically trash the Province and still be happy.

So you can lose the split 5 - 3 and as long as you bought them at $14 you'd still win 45 - 30
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2016, 01:14:34 pm »
+1

Dominate really seems crazy. Previously, $16 and an extra buy would get you 12 points. In any game that has Dominate, you'll never (edge case blah blah) buy 2 Provinces on a turn.

Case that is not very edgy:  I'm down 6-12 points with 2 Provinces left in the pile.  I have $16 and 2 buys.

I would pedantically argue that is exactly an example of an "edge case", and the relevant point is that the edge cases are relatively common.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2016, 01:15:18 pm »
+10

If you have Gladiator and Crown in the kingdom, you can do the Horn of Plenty/Mandarin trick with Dominate.

Crown Gold ->
Play Copper ->
Play Fortune ->
Play Horn of Plenty, Gain Mandarin, topdeck Crown, Gold, Copper, Fortune, Horn of Plenty.
Buy Dominate.
Repeat!
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2016, 01:23:24 pm »
+3

Thank you for continuing the triangular sequence in vanilla vp card values.

Dominate seems very cool, but the fact that it's the same vp-pile as Provinces (as opposed to Colony's own pile) means that if you go for Domination you have less leeway in how deep you can to let your opponent dig into the Province pile before starting your epic catch-up.
In a vacuum, 3 Dominions crush 5 provinces; but 2-6 favors the Province player.
The fact that the Dominate player can buy the occasional Province/double Province will give them the edge, but I suspect it won't be as automatic as going for Colonies, also because Platinum.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 09:51:51 am by Accatitippi »
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2016, 01:29:18 pm »
0

Bishop + Triumph, the Platinum deck.

Platinum x2, Gold, Bishop, Province
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2016, 01:29:57 pm »
0

Dominate is interesting with Bishop golden decks.

The traditional golden deck buys and trashes a Province every round.  In the end, you get 5VP per trashed Province (counting the base 1VP from Bishop).  You lose 1VP with each one, but it's still a pretty good return.

Colony isn't as efficient though.  You would get 6VP per trashed Colony, barely better than Province.  You lose 4VP on each one!

But with Dominate, you're back to trashing Provinces and losing only 1VP each.  The other 9VP is already in tokens.  In the end, you're still retaining 14VP (from 15) for each Dominated Province.

It's really tough to have a golden deck that can reach $14 though.  Gold isn't enough, and Platinum isn't guaranteed to come out with Dominate.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2016, 01:30:53 pm »
0

Windfall seems weak. If you're drawing your deck, you usually don't want Golds. But I could be wrong there.

I think you're wrong there... quite often you'll build up a great engine that can draw your deck and generate multiple buys; but still only end up with $15 or so money to spend. I remember many games where I've bought a Province and a Silver, then later a Province and a Gold, then finally could move on to 2 Provinces. This gives you a whole new way to build up an engine and then quickly add payload.

Also you can just trash all your money to replace it with 3 golds. Except you need 5 money.

Foraging down quickly to just Foragers and Coppers will get you to where it sounds like you want to be.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2016, 01:39:45 pm »
+2

As has already been pointed out, there is an important difference between Colony and Dominate: in Colony games, you can ignore Provinces because it's hard for a single player to end the game quickly by buying them all, so you have time to build your engine and still get to use it long enough to make up for the delay. In Dominate games, both players are still competing for the same pile, so you won't have the extra time Colony games have. Seems like the decision to go for Dominate is going to be trickier.

Also Goons + Watchtower + Tomb + Triumph for the win.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2016, 01:51:17 pm »
+2

Also, any edge cases to how you could buy multiple Windfalls and get Golds each time?

Trash the incoming golds with watchtower and you can buy as many as you like
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2016, 02:02:56 pm »
+1

Triumph has -quite thematically- good three-pile potential. (it doesn't provide the buys, but it will provide the points).

I can already see myself surprise-ending the game by buying out the Estates, then buying a Triumph to get enough points to overcome my opponent and then when I'm already exultantly pushing the End turn button, finding out that I shouldn't have bought that last Estate.
Suprise endings, gotta love them.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2016, 02:10:39 pm »
+4


My guess is the $14 cost is because it's $3 more than Colony, which is $3 more than Province, which is $3 more than Duchy and so on.  So the Event is probably a source of VP, perhaps as simple as $14-> Take X VP chips, where X is some number.  My guess is that the tough decision wasn't what the Event the should cost, but rather what number of VP was a fair number, keeping in mind that a deck that reliably hits $14 every turn could add points indefinitely without bring the game to an end. 

Actually, this can't quite be it.  You could have two opponents just going back and forth buying the event, with the game never coming to a conclusion.  Maybe it's $14 -> Take X VP, trash a Victory Card from the supply, where the Victory card is either something you choose, or something predetermined like Province.  So you're adding some number of VP (is 6 too few?  is 10 too many?), a Province is removed, bringing the game closer to its end, but now you don't have a Province cluttering up your deck.  This is my guess.

So I was pretty close to guessing what the $14 event was.  I wasn't sure how many VP it would be, but I probably should've guessed that it would net 15, as that's the next tier (Estate +2 to Duchy +3 to Province and so on).  I was also wrong about where the Province goes; you do remove a Province from the pile, but it goes into your deck instead of just being trashed (I was influenced by the teaser about cards that trash cards from the supply). 
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2016, 02:16:26 pm »
+2

New piledriving achievement: Buy out the Provinces in one turn by ONLY using Dominate.
Unopposed, Counting House + Travelling Fair + Bank can do it reliably (fastest in 9 turns), I believe.  On the last turn, you need 126 coins.  So, you need Counting House to grab at least 24 Coppers before playing 4 Banks.

However, it's likely that you can empty the Province pile and win one turn earlier.  So, the only reason (other than showing off) to do this is to beat an opponent that has >51 non-Province victory points on turn N-1, but hasn't ended the game by turn N.  This could happen a few ways, but it's pretty unlikely.  Doing this in a real game where the opponent is trying to win sounds like quite the challenge!
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2016, 02:22:04 pm »
+4

That's it for previews, not counting today's other preview, which is a doozy.

Is it an Action - Doozy or an Event - Doozy?

No.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2016, 02:24:38 pm »
+10

That's it for previews, not counting today's other preview, which is a doozy.

Is it an Action - Doozy or an Event - Doozy?

No.

I should have guessed Victory - Doozy.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2016, 03:03:16 pm »
+10

Salvager - Gold - Gold - Province is a 9VP/turn golden deck with Dominate. And it only needs 4 cards in hand, so the 5th can be a Lab or Wishing Well or something to make your golden deck discard-attack-proof!
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2016, 03:32:05 pm »
0

If you have Gladiator and Crown in the kingdom, you can do the Horn of Plenty/Mandarin trick with Dominate.

And all of those cards being available happens in, like, once per 100 000 games or something (I did the maths in my head so it's not 100% accurate, but that's roughly the order of magnitude we're talking about anyway), so you'd better not miss it when it does.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 03:33:35 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2016, 03:49:31 pm »
+2

Way worse than that - about 1 in 23 million to have a 4 Kingdom + 1 Event/Landmark combo.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2016, 03:53:48 pm »
+10

The excitement about the new events broke the forum record for most users online at the same time!
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2016, 04:00:16 pm »
+2

Way worse than that - about 1 in 23 million to have a 4 Kingdom + 1 Event/Landmark combo.

Very roughly the same order of magnitude.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2016, 04:01:44 pm »
0

The excitement about the new events broke the forum record for most users online at the same time!
Which is what number?  How many users?
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2016, 04:03:27 pm »
0

The excitement about the new events broke the forum record for most users online at the same time!
Which is what number?  How many users?

Most Online Today: 335. Most Online Ever: 335 (Today at 07:18:44 pm

It's at the bottom of the frontpage. The previous record was from 2012, I believe during Dark Ages previews? I'm too lazy to look up that one.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2016, 04:46:02 pm »
+2

I remember in my first 10 games of dominion or so nobody ever came close to drawing their deck. Windfall will seem impossible to achieve to new players.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2016, 04:49:09 pm »
+3

I remember in my first 10 games of dominion or so nobody ever came close to drawing their deck. Windfall will seem impossible to achieve to new players.

It might make them more inclined to try drawing their deck though.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2016, 05:18:12 pm »
+4

More random math:

Probability of playing with all 55 Events and Landmarks if you don't limit them (assuming 260 Kingdom): 1/4.85901E+51
Probability of playing with a 10 Kingdom Card combo: 1/3.26491E+17

Probability of playing with a 2 Event/Landmark Combo: 1/566 (no limit), 1/1731 (limit of 2)
Probability of playing with a 1 Kingdom Card + 1 Event/Landmark Combo: 1/679 (no limit), 1/980 (limit of 2)
Probability of playing with a 2 Kingdom Card Combo: 1/748
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2016, 05:20:58 pm »
+1

So essentially, combos are rare now is what you're saying.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2016, 05:28:35 pm »
+5

Probability of playing with a combo that everyone has agreed to play with: 1
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2016, 05:41:06 pm »
+1

So essentially, combos are rare now is what you're saying.

Well, it has been the case for years now that you might as well forget about anything involving more than two specific cards.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2016, 05:48:56 pm »
+3

So essentially, combos are rare now is what you're saying.

Each individual combo is rarer, but there are now more of them, so it evens out.

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2016, 05:51:49 pm »
+1

More than anything, the thing that makes me happiest about Windfall is that it makes building an engine in the absence of reliable +Buy much better. So many games have everything you need except +Buy or a strong attack you want to play every turn, and this tilts the board very heavily toward any engine you can throw together.
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math

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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2016, 05:53:29 pm »
+2

More than anything, the thing that makes me happiest about Windfall is that it makes building an engine in the absence of reliable +Buy much better. So many games have everything you need except +Buy or a strong attack you want to play every turn, and this tilts the board very heavily toward any engine you can throw together.

If you don't have +Buy, how are you going to use the money from Windfall?  The only case where I can see this being useful is in a game with Dominate.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2016, 11:21:56 pm »
0

Also, any edge cases to how you could buy multiple Windfalls and get Golds each time?

In between buys of Windfall, buy a Cultist and trash it with Watchtower. Also Rats, but you'd have to buy and trash three of them between Windfalls.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #81 on: May 14, 2016, 12:16:43 am »
+1

More than anything, the thing that makes me happiest about Windfall is that it makes building an engine in the absence of reliable +Buy much better. So many games have everything you need except +Buy or a strong attack you want to play every turn, and this tilts the board very heavily toward any engine you can throw together.

If you don't have +Buy, how are you going to use the money from Windfall?  The only case where I can see this being useful is in a game with Dominate.

There's Expand/Remodel/Butcher.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #82 on: May 14, 2016, 08:01:46 am »
0

So there are 13 events and 21 landmarks, that leaves 266 kingdom cards/randomizers. 24 piles, one of which is a victory pile, would fit exactly.

There are 76 pieces of card art. Wht we know so far is that there are 13 events, 21 Landmarks, 8 Castles, 3 split piles (each accounting for 3 pieces of art - two cards plus randomiser which "list both cards and have art showing both things"). That totals 52 pieces of card art, including Castles randomiser, leaving 24 unaccounted for. So based on this... two more split piles and 24 kingdom cards total makes up the numbers?
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #83 on: May 14, 2016, 10:34:29 am »
+1

Also, any edge cases to how you could buy multiple Windfalls and get Golds each time?
In between buys of Windfall, buy a Cultist and trash it with Watchtower. Also Rats, but you'd have to buy and trash three of them between Windfalls.
Use Seaway to put +1Buy on Villa.

On your turn:
  Draw your entire deck.
  Have Watchtower in hand. Have a Council Room in hand.
  Have $10 to spend, including a Quarry in play.
  Have 3 Buys.

Now, as many times as you like (or, at least, until piles run out):
  Buy Windfall @$5, Council Room @$3 (react with Watchtower to topdeck it), Villa @$2.
  Put Villa in hand, return to action phase.
  Play Villa, draw Council Room.
  Play Council Room, draw three Gold and a Council Room.
  Enter buy phase, play three Gold, lather, rinse, repeat.

It works. Whether or not it's a good idea is another question entirely. One particular consideration is whether you're even going to take another turn this game, having emptied so many piles and given your opponents such gigantic hands.

(Edit: Fixed with strikeouts and italics. I forgot Villa didn't draw.)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 12:08:22 pm by crj »
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #84 on: May 14, 2016, 10:46:59 am »
0

  Play Villa, draw Council Room.

But Villa doesn't draw.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #85 on: May 14, 2016, 12:05:28 pm »
0

Fair point, well made.

Easy to fix, though: have one Council Room in hand before you start. Then, each time you play Council Room, you draw the Council Room for next time. Actually, that's simpler anyway, because you no longer need the Watchtower.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #86 on: May 14, 2016, 08:42:38 pm »
0

More than anything, the thing that makes me happiest about Windfall is that it makes building an engine in the absence of reliable +Buy much better. So many games have everything you need except +Buy or a strong attack you want to play every turn, and this tilts the board very heavily toward any engine you can throw together.

If you don't have +Buy, how are you going to use the money from Windfall?  The only case where I can see this being useful is in a game with Dominate.

Sorry, I actually meant Dominate. The expensive one that gives you a Province and a bunch of points.
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Re: Empires Previews #5: Events
« Reply #87 on: May 20, 2016, 05:57:52 am »
+4

Contraband is really so much better when what you want to buy is an expensive Event anyway. (Dominate, I'm looking at you!)
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