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Author Topic: Empires speculation  (Read 8515 times)

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trivialknot

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Empires speculation
« on: May 12, 2016, 08:49:10 pm »
0

Between the Empires previews and Empires release, we only have two weeks for wild mass guessing!  What will the $14 event do?  How will we be able to bid? etc.

Post your most wild-eyed ideas here.  If you were correct, you will earn bragging rights, and if you were incorrect we'll just pretend it was a fan card all along, well it is the fan card forum.  Obviously playtesters can't participate.
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pacovf

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2016, 08:56:06 pm »
+2

Since both are sideways, and who said that cards were the only things that could have multiple types

Quote
Sanctuary: Event-Landmark, 2$
Put a card from your hand facedown under this.

When scoring, 1VP per card if there's a copy of it under this.

Probably rife with balance problems, but eh. Obviously cards in the Sanctuary don't count as being in their original owner's decks.
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singletee

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2016, 08:56:51 pm »
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Bidding will be a once-per-turn event that players can buy. When someone buys it, everyone will be able to bid VP chips to receive some kind of cool reward, like an extra-powerful card. Bidding will be once around, with the player whose turn it is having the final bid, because who has the time for multiple rounds of bidding in a turn?

trivialknot

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2016, 09:01:14 pm »
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Bidding could be a sort of dutch auction.  For example:

Victory/Gathering card - 12 debt
4 VP
When anyone buys a kingdom card, place a debt token on this supply.  When you buy this, remove all debt tokens from this supply, and lose an equal number of debt tokens.
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pacovf

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2016, 09:03:16 pm »
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It looks likely that the bidding will be triggered by an event, and that it will be done with debt tokens, rather than VP tokens.
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singletee

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2016, 09:33:47 pm »
+1

It looks likely that the bidding will be triggered by an event, and that it will be done with debt tokens, rather than VP tokens.

I do see a potential problem with bidding using debt. On particular boards where stuff can be accomplished without buying, taking a lot of debt is not much worse than taking a little debt. So we might end up with a situation where everyone keeps bidding higher with no incentive to stop. Even if you limit bidding to one go-around, it would still be a competition to see who can name the highest number (hint, it's whoever gets to bid last). Either of these is pretty bad. You could avoid it by placing a cap on the amount of debt you can bid, but that seems inelegant.

eHalcyon

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 09:41:35 pm »
+1

It looks likely that the bidding will be triggered by an event, and that it will be done with debt tokens, rather than VP tokens.

I do see a potential problem with bidding using debt. On particular boards where stuff can be accomplished without buying, taking a lot of debt is not much worse than taking a little debt. So we might end up with a situation where everyone keeps bidding higher with no incentive to stop. Even if you limit bidding to one go-around, it would still be a competition to see who can name the highest number (hint, it's whoever gets to bid last). Either of these is pretty bad. You could avoid it by placing a cap on the amount of debt you can bid, but that seems inelegant.

That's why I think it'll be a one-time bid at the start of the game.  The kingdom might have stuff that lets you get by without buying anything, but you won't be able to buy that stuff until you pay off your starting debt.
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trivialknot

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2016, 09:44:39 pm »
0

Maybe something like this:
Quote
Auction - $1 Event
Once per turn: +1 Buy.  Choose a non-victory card in the supply.  Each player may call out a positive integer, starting with the player on your left.  The person who called the highest number takes that number of debt tokens and gains the card.

Obviously you'd need a way to deal with ties, and it's already too many words.
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trivialknot

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2016, 09:46:23 pm »
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If the bidding is attached to an event, then you can't buy it unless you've already gotten rid of all your debt.
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ConMan

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2016, 09:53:37 pm »
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I can imagine a Landmark that's something like

"When you buy this, you may overpay. For each $2 you overpay, you may take 1 VP token from this. | At the start of each player's turn, add +VP to this."

It's the old "overpay for VP" Event/card that kept getting identified as kind of broken, but if the number of VP is limited by the number of turns it's maybe not so bad.

Alternatively, one that has you place a huge stack of VP tokens on it at the start of the game, and each turn you can either pay $1 or $2 for each token on it to get them all, or else remove a token.
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Kirian

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2016, 10:14:16 pm »
+2

I'm uncertain why no one has suggested simultaneous blind bids.  That's what I'd expect rather than going around the table.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2016, 10:51:45 pm »
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I'm uncertain why no one has suggested simultaneous blind bids.  That's what I'd expect rather than going around the table.

I don't see how that's practical in real life play. I suppose you could take some number of VP chips from the supply and hide them under your hand, but people could get an idea of how many are left. You can't just do that with your own chips because people could see how many you have left.
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Kirian

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2016, 11:48:00 pm »
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I'm uncertain why no one has suggested simultaneous blind bids.  That's what I'd expect rather than going around the table.

I don't see how that's practical in real life play. I suppose you could take some number of VP chips from the supply and hide them under your hand, but people could get an idea of how many are left. You can't just do that with your own chips because people could see how many you have left.

"Setup: Each player takes 10 VP tokens at the start of the game."
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spiralstaircase

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2016, 03:00:16 am »
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Since both are sideways, and who said that cards were the only things that could have multiple types

Yeah - I'm guessing this will also turn out to be why we have the Gathering type.

Quote
Blathering - Event-Landmark - $0
Once per turn: +1 Buy; Put a VP on every non-Gathering supply pile. When any player buys a card from those piles, they take the VP.

...or something along those lines.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2016, 03:57:23 am »
+1

I'm also in the camp that believes bidding will happen with vp's. As others said, debt could be broken with power gainers, and bidding debt at the start of the game could work but it sounds kinda unfun. But who knows. A landmark that dishes out vp's for debt at the start of the game wouldn't be unbalanced, but, again, will it be fun? I mean, there's a player that won't start playing for a while, I'm not sure I'd be thrilled.
Anyway, I'm more interested in knowing what we'll be bidding for. The right of selecting first a unique card from a pool at the start of the game? The same thing at some key point of the game?

As a famous game designer once said, it's the goal that's important, not the bidding.
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pst

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2016, 08:12:10 am »
+1

What will the $14 event do?

"The game ends now".

So when this is in play even a small lead is a threat of immediate win.
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LostPhoenix

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2016, 10:08:55 am »
+2

Some names I think may show up: Amphitheater, Aqueduct, Bailey, Arch, Forum, Realm.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 12:39:27 pm by LostPhoenix »
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spiralstaircase

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2016, 12:11:55 pm »
+1

Usurer
Action - Attack - $4
+$2
Each other player takes  ⟨1⟩
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2016, 12:37:27 pm »
+3

I'm guessing we won't see an attack that gives other player's debt, because it's basically just a more harsh version of the - token.
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Gubump

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2016, 12:38:35 pm »
+2

Usurer
Action - Attack - $4
+$2
Each other player takes  ⟨1⟩

Except for the edge cases of Storyteller and Coppersmith, isn't this strictly better than Cutpurse, since it never misses and takes away the same amount of $?
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spiralstaircase

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2016, 12:41:16 pm »
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Both fair points.  I was more concerned with showing off that i'd found some good brackets to use for debt costs than I was with balance :-)
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Elestan

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2016, 12:49:37 pm »
+1

I'm guessing we won't see an attack that gives other player's debt, because it's basically just a more harsh version of the - token.

Also because if you give someone a debt token when they happen to have no economy, they're pinned forever.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2016, 02:02:41 pm »
+1

I'm also in the camp that believes bidding will happen with vp's. As others said, debt could be broken with power gainers, and bidding debt at the start of the game could work but it sounds kinda unfun. But who knows. A landmark that dishes out vp's for debt at the start of the game wouldn't be unbalanced, but, again, will it be fun? I mean, there's a player that won't start playing for a while, I'm not sure I'd be thrilled.
Anyway, I'm more interested in knowing what we'll be bidding for. The right of selecting first a unique card from a pool at the start of the game? The same thing at some key point of the game?

As a famous game designer once said, it's the goal that's important, not the bidding.

I feel like bidding with VP isn't great because the value of 1VP swings so wildly depending on the board.  Sometimes 1VP decides victory, sometimes the margin is in the triple digits.  I guess coin/debt value can swing too, but I think it's a much smaller range.



Maybe the bidding will be something else entirely, like...

Landlord
Landmark
Setup: At the start of the game, each player may bid* from 0 to 6, taking that number of Estates and twice that number of VP tokens.  Each player's starting deck consists of 7 Copper and those Estates.

*Simultaneously, using VP tokens or something.

I think VP tokens work here because it's not auction-style.
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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2016, 02:10:35 pm »
0

Moving here the discussion about Landmark speculation:
I think there will be at least one that cares about Curses. +1 vp token when you gain a Curse would be interesting, I think.
One for trashing Provinces could be cool, but it would need to be balanced against Province mills. 3-4vp per trashed Province could maybe kinda work?
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trivialknot

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Re: Empires speculation
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2016, 02:17:59 pm »
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How would a debt attack work?  Maybe something like this:

Quote
Action - $5
Until your next turn, when anyone buys a card, they take 1 debt.  Now and at the beginning of your next turn, +1 Buy.
-------
While this is in play, cards cost $1 and 1 debt less, but not less than zero.
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