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Author Topic: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks  (Read 26801 times)

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ced

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2016, 01:36:41 pm »
+1

Fountain offers a massive reward for only needing three Copper above the starting total. It's trivial in Mountebank games, fairly easy in an engine with lots of +buy eg Workers Village, and Beggar does it easily too. It's more interesting in money games. If you only have one buy, then you obviously need to pick up those coppers - they're worth a whopping 5VP each. The question is when do you get them? Additionally, if there's copper trashing on the board, do you skip it, or can your thin deck outscore someone going for 10 coppers?

Battlefield offers an additional 12VP for the first few green cards built. I can see this not being a huge deal in many games - perhaps you'll start greening a little earlier and split the VP 8-4. Or, as Donald X mentions, pick up an Estate and trash it. It's pretty cool for alt-VP strategies, where you aggressively buy out e.g. the Gardens early. It's also a nice little bonus for gaining Great Hall or Island.

Wolf Den will hurt some engines. You want to add a second copy of any of your payload actions, most likely. This might just reduce diversity (and result in things like double Militia), or increase terminal collision. Maybe you could buy it in the last couple of turns. It affects Duchy dancing. That first Duchy isn't worth any VPs, so you need to get that second one to counterbalance it. It also interacts with a lot of cards. Golden decks are going to be undesirable, looters and Swindler get a boost, and Black Market/Tournament/Knights might be skippable with Wolf Den out.

Tomb mostly looks like a little buff to any trashing on the table. It also gives something to do in the lategame - start trashing cards out of your deck for a bit of extra VP when the game is close to the end. It also makes you feel better about trashing the starting Estates - no need to keep one around as a tiebreaker.

Keep is going to be a huge BM card. BM decks are trivially going to pick up at least 10 VP from this card against an engine. In the BM mirror, it will encourage continuing to build - Golds are the obvious fight you want to win, and you might need to ignore Provinces for a while to do it. Fun with any kingdom treasures which are out. Cache is now a card you need to win the split on.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2016, 01:41:46 pm »
0

In Gladiator/Wolf Den games, you'll have to weigh whether getting that Fortune will be worth the -3.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2016, 01:47:01 pm »
+4

Battlefield does.

Whoooops.  You (and the others) are right.  Slip of the mind.

Why is that? is it said in rules?

The rules specify what you can do, not what you can't; for anything game-related, you can't do it unless the rules allow you to.

Now, the one with a good memory becomes a strictly better player than the one with the bad, isn't it?

Yes. Fortunately you can play online with a point-counter, or you can agree to play a variant with your friends where you are all allowed to write down notes.

Well, better memory doesn't make for a strictly better player because you still need to know what to do with that information.  There's more to being a good player than knowing what's in your deck, though it certainly helps. 

I always find it odd when people try to use the "loophole" of, "well the rulebook doesn't say you can't".  Rules are permissive, not restrictive, because they can't cover ever possible real life scenario.  Some other things that the rule book doesn't explicitly forbid:

- rigging your shuffle so key cards are more likely to be near the top (there was actually a big thread years ago where somebody tried to argue that this was acceptable)
- secretly marking the cards so you can tell what's in your opponent's hand
- setting fire to your opponent's deck

Dominion is a game that rewards many skills and talents, memory included.  As it is, plenty of Dominion players prefer testing their ability to find strategies and make tactical decisions and aren't as keen on the memory aspect, so they like to play with VP counters or even full-blown deck trackers.  And that's fine if it's what you like, and if all the players agree.

Edit: typoooo
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 02:07:43 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2016, 01:49:56 pm »
+4

In Gladiator/Wolf Den games, you'll have to weigh whether getting that Fortune will be worth the -3.

You could also buy a second Fortune.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2016, 01:56:27 pm »
0

Swindler may like Wolf Den, but it doesn't like Battlefield. Hitting an opponent's Estate gives them 2 points for free, and turning a 5 into a Duchy becomes much less appealing.

Rebuild-Battlefield is just silly.

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2016, 01:59:05 pm »
+2

In Gladiator/Wolf Den games, you'll have to weigh whether getting that Fortune will be worth the -3.

You could also buy a second Fortune.

Don't let's be silly.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2016, 02:01:44 pm »
+6

In Gladiator/Wolf Den games, you'll have to weigh whether getting that Fortune will be worth the -3.

You could also buy a second Fortune.

Most expensive Duchy ever!
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2016, 02:08:23 pm »
+2

Battlefield does.

Whoooops.  You (and the others) are right.  Slip of the mind.

Why is that? is it said in rules?

The rules specify what you can do, not what you can't; for anything game-related, you can't do it unless the rules allow you to.

Now, the one with a good memory becomes a strictly better player than the one with the bad, isn't it?

Yes. Fortunately you can play online with a point-counter, or you can agree to play a variant with your friends where you are all allowed to write down notes.

Well, better memory doesn't make for a strictly better player because you still need to know what to do with that information.  There's more to being a good player than knocking what's in your deck, though it certainly helps. 

I always find it odd when people try to use the "loophole" of, "well the rulebook doesn't say you can't".  Rules are permissive, not restrictive, because they can't cover ever possible real life scenario.  Some other things that the rule book doesn't explicitly forbid:

- rigging your shuffle so key cards are more likely to be near the top (there was actually a big thread years ago where somebody tried to argue that this was acceptable)
- secretly marking the cards so you can tell what's in your opponent's hand
- setting fire to your opponent's deck

Dominion is a game that rewards many skills and talents, memory included.  As it is, plenty of Dominion players prefer testing their ability to find strategies and make tactical decisions and aren't as keen on the memory aspect, so they like to play with VP counters or even full-blown deck trackers.  And that's fine if it's what you like, and if all the players agree.

I could be equally hyperbolic by saying that the rules don't permit you to talk, breath, or remember things at all. While rulebooks are permissive in theory, there are always unwritten assumptions which is why sometimes rulebooks must explicitly state restrictive rules (such as a "no talking" rule used in various games where in all other cases it is assumed players are permitted to talk even if the rules don't say that).

I doubt Donald would say that notetaking is allowed -- based off the rule that you can't look through your discard pile even -- but to claim that an act as innocent as notetaking is cheating cannot be justified by it's lack of inclusion in the rules.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2016, 02:08:54 pm »
+2

In Gladiator/Wolf Den games, you'll have to weigh whether getting that Fortune will be worth the -3.

You could also buy a second Fortune.

Most expensive Duchy ever!

You can still use that second Fortune!  Sometimes you really need another +Buy, especially when you're doubling your money.  Sometimes you don't draw your deck every turn.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2016, 02:11:39 pm »
0

In Gladiator/Wolf Den games, you'll have to weigh whether getting that Fortune will be worth the -3.

You could also buy a second Fortune.

Most expensive Duchy ever!

You can still use that second Fortune!  Sometimes you really need another +Buy, especially when you're doubling your money.  Sometimes you don't draw your deck every turn.

Yeah, I don't see why you would automatically want to stop at 1 Fortune... sure you can get unlucky and have them collide; but in general a second one will mean using it twice per shuffle instead of once per shuffle.

Now, Wolf Den does seem like it would really hurt Tournament and Fairgrounds, while making Cultist way stronger.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2016, 02:13:36 pm »
+7

I could be equally hyperbolic by saying that the rules don't permit you to talk, breath, or remember things at all. While rulebooks are permissive in theory, there are always unwritten assumptions which is why sometimes rulebooks must explicitly state restrictive rules (such as a "no talking" rule used in various games where in all other cases it is assumed players are permitted to talk even if the rules don't say that).

I doubt Donald would say that notetaking is allowed -- based off the rule that you can't look through your discard pile even -- but to claim that an act as innocent as notetaking is cheating cannot be justified by it's lack of inclusion in the rules.
Incorrecto. This has been discussed at length already, so: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=876.msg13546#msg13546
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2016, 02:15:13 pm »
+2

I doubt Donald would say that notetaking is allowed -- based off the rule that you can't look through your discard pile even -- but to claim that an act as innocent as notetaking is cheating cannot be justified by it's lack of inclusion in the rules.

No need to guess, this has been discussed multiple times before, and Donald has been extremely clear that taking notes is either cheating or a house rule/variant; depending on if your opponent agrees to it.

*Edit* Ninja'd by the man himself.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2016, 02:16:59 pm »
0

I could be equally hyperbolic by saying that the rules don't permit you to talk, breath, or remember things at all. While rulebooks are permissive in theory, there are always unwritten assumptions which is why sometimes rulebooks must explicitly state restrictive rules (such as a "no talking" rule used in various games where in all other cases it is assumed players are permitted to talk even if the rules don't say that).

I doubt Donald would say that notetaking is allowed -- based off the rule that you can't look through your discard pile even -- but to claim that an act as innocent as notetaking is cheating cannot be justified by it's lack of inclusion in the rules.

Those are things that are unrelated the game itself, so the game doesn't need to permit you to do them.  I'll grant that talking is a fuzzy case though.  Rule books may state some restrictive rules for the purpose of clarity, especially when players would otherwise make assumptions that they shouldn't.

This topic has come up before and Donald has said explicitly that note-taking is not allowed, i.e. it really is cheating.  But you are free to play variants, and using counters and trackers is one of the most common variants, especially online.

PPE: super ninja'd
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crj

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2016, 02:20:00 pm »
0

OK. Now buying Empires is a no-brainer!

Forge, Tomb, oodles of Treasure Troves and some card draw.

It might suck, but I'm eager to give it a try, and that's the main thing.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2016, 02:28:57 pm »
+1

In Gladiator/Wolf Den games, you'll have to weigh whether getting that Fortune will be worth the -3.

I'm pretty sure that doubling your money is worth a lot more than a Duchy.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2016, 02:31:02 pm »
+1

In Gladiator/Wolf Den games, you'll have to weigh whether getting that Fortune will be worth the -3.

You could also buy a second Fortune.


Most expensive Duchy ever!

You can still use that second Fortune!  Sometimes you really need another +Buy, especially when you're doubling your money.  Sometimes you don't draw your deck every turn.

Yeah, I don't see why you would automatically want to stop at 1 Fortune... sure you can get unlucky and have them collide; but in general a second one will mean using it twice per shuffle instead of once per shuffle.

Now, Wolf Den does seem like it would really hurt Tournament and Fairgrounds, while making Cultist way stronger.

As if Cultist needed any buffing. To make matters worse, one player can get a ton of duplicates from Cultist while another player gets one of each ruins.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 02:33:17 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2016, 02:34:50 pm »
0

Is it just me, or isn't Wolf Den/Knights interesting?
If you're the only one going for Knights, then you have the advantage of being able to trash the opponents deck, but the disadvantage that you have to buy more victory cards.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 02:47:16 pm by Simon (DK) »
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2016, 02:35:32 pm »
0

I like these, I like these a lot.
The reason is simple, they try to make you think about different strategies you can pursue.

There's always been a way to get a lot of points without Copper (just trashing them), but now you can do something entirely different. The fun thing is, you probably can't do both.


And Wolf Den is amusing to make players buy Sea Hags and stuff near the end of the game.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2016, 02:37:38 pm »
0

I think Keep is the most interesting of these.  Save a couple Spoils for a 10 VP swing.  More Silver and fewer kingdom cards for another.  A couple useless Potions or Quarries in a game without another compelling reason to buy them.  Thin those Coppers or hold on to a few more?

The average game probably has about 4.5-5 Treasure cards.  Win 4 of 5 battles and you are up 15--you can lose Province 5-3 and still win.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2016, 02:43:57 pm »
+8

In a Keep game, all of a sudden Diadem becomes a much more attractive Tournament Prize.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2016, 02:44:45 pm »
0

I have a feeling our minds will explode on some Kingdoms where Landmarks are out. Man, these change the game so much.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2016, 02:50:00 pm »
+3

Miser just got a buff . . .
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2016, 02:57:09 pm »
+2

Miser just got a buff . . .

He must have a Fountain bundled away in his wagon along with all the other junk he's hoarding.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2016, 02:58:32 pm »
+1

With what we know so far, Empires offers more VP strategies/cards than all of Dominion combined prior to this.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2016, 03:07:28 pm »
0

In a Keep game, all of a sudden Diadem becomes a much more attractive Tournament Prize.

And yet the person who wins more Tournaments in a Wolf Den game ends up down several points. Does this make Tournament skippable?
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