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Author Topic: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks  (Read 27541 times)

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LaLight

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2016, 01:05:45 pm »
0

so, now i'm finally gonna take a piece of paper to every game. Just to write down how many of each card i have

Not sure if intended to be serious, but this would be cheating (unless you all agreed to play by that house rule).

Why is that? is it said in rules? Now, the one with a good memory becomes a strictly better player than the one with the bad, isn't it?
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2016, 01:05:58 pm »
+3

Swindler and Wolf's den make for hilariously low scoring games.
How about masquerade/black market with wolf den?
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2016, 01:06:00 pm »
+2

Art Criticisms:
Battlefield and Wolf Den look horrendous. This expansion seems to be half great art and half horrible art IMO.
Fountain looks good, but it could have a little more focus on the fountain itself.
Tomb and Keep look AMAZING! Would have expected nothing less from their artists.

A lot of people seem to dislike the more cartoon-style art. 
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2016, 01:06:06 pm »
+7

Wolf's Den also makes Fairgrounds a lot harder.

Joseph2302

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2016, 01:06:10 pm »
0

I got to play Kingdom Builder last week, and man, this sure feels like Kingdom Builder. In a good way.
Exactly what I was thinking, having played Kingdom Builder for the first time 2 weeks ago.
Interesting to have public end (and in-game) goals that change the game even more, by encouraging weird & wonderful strategies.
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ced

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2016, 01:06:42 pm »
+1

One dull old Dominion puzzle has got a lot more interesting. What's the lowest possible winning score in a Dominion game?

3-pile Ruins, Curses, Knights with Shelters and Wolf Den.
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JW

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2016, 01:07:34 pm »
+4

We're going to be playing with a lot of landmarks/events on average after Empires.

Using the recommendation of a 2 event/landmark limit, the negative binomial approximation (how can Excel not have a built in negative hypergeometric distribution!), and assuming 47 total events/landmarks and 262 total kingdom cards (I'm not sure we know how many kingdom cards and events will be in Empires):

Chance of 0 events/landmarks: 19.2%
Chance of 1 events/landmarks: 29.2%
Chance of 2 events/landmarks: 51.6%
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 05:33:38 pm by JW »
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schadd

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2016, 01:08:04 pm »
+1

defend yourself from wolves with a talisman.

eh, swing and a miss
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2016, 01:09:35 pm »
+5

So I am guessing that the "When scoring" clause will prevent any point tracking system from adding the number of points from these landmarks to your total until at the end of the game?

I don't see how.... the 6 VP from Province is also given "when scoring"... since the only things that care about your score at any time other than the end of the game are unofficial point counters, it seems reasonable that such point counters would track if you have 10 Coppers just like they would track how many Silvers you have for the purpose of Feodum.

I think that is a reasonable interpretation, but I can see it going either way.

Feodum says nothing about "when scoring"

Quote
Worth 1 VP for every 3 Silvers in your deck (rounded down)

So I can see the interpretation for Feodum meaning that it is constantly refreshed, but that for Landmarks it is a one time scoring moment (at the end of the game).

Any reasonable point tracker would keep track of Landmark VP as the game progresses. All existing VP cards have an implicit "When scoring,"
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2016, 01:11:09 pm »
+1

This is pretty much what I expected Landmarks   I like it.  I vaguely recall fan card threads with this basic premise and it was well received then too, though I and others may have recommended caution for effects with VP swings as big as these.

I especially like the ones that entice you to do things you otherwise wouldn't (Fountain, Battlefield) or make you care about stuff that you usually  take for granted (Wolf's Den, Keep).  I also wonder how many Landmarks that help new players learn strategy (Tomb may encourage a newbie to trash stuff and then they might see that trashing is good even when you don't get VP for it).

Landmarks don't actually have "setup" written on them.  Well, these ones don't at least... Maybe on tomorrow's events.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2016, 01:14:03 pm »
+1

This is pretty much what I expected Landmarks   I like it.  I vaguely recall fan card threads with this basic premise and it was well received then too, though I and others may have recommended caution for effects with VP swings as big as these.

I especially like the ones that entice you to do things you otherwise wouldn't (Fountain, Battlefield) or make you care about stuff that you usually  take for granted (Wolf's Den, Keep).  I also wonder how many Landmarks that help new players learn strategy (Tomb may encourage a newbie to trash stuff and then they might see that trashing is good even when you don't get VP for it).

Landmarks don't actually have "setup" written on them.  Well, these ones don't at least... Maybe on tomorrow's events.
Battlefield does.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2016, 01:14:24 pm »
+2

One of the Landmarks mentions setup.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2016, 01:14:41 pm »
+2

Dominion is now a completely different game.

I like this new game very much.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2016, 01:14:56 pm »
+1

Landmarks don't actually have "setup" written on them.  Well, these ones don't at least... Maybe on tomorrow's events.

Battlefield has "setup", and Donald has stated right in the preview that there are more like it.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2016, 01:15:42 pm »
+1

I find the (blueish) green color soothing.
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A Ladder

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2016, 01:16:14 pm »
+1

Wolf's Den also makes Fairgrounds a lot harder.

And going for Knights a terrible idea. (cue edge-casing).

BTW, I really like the art of Wolf's Den.

I am a HUGE fan of Keep. Big Money just got a big boost in viability.

LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2016, 01:16:54 pm »
+11

All you people wondering why Empires comes with 2-VP tokens rather than e.g. 10-VP tokens, this is why. VP comes off of Landmarks like Battlefield in 2-VP chunks, and it's really nice not to have to make change or have a huge pile of 1-VP tokens on these Landmarks.
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werothegreat

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2016, 01:17:17 pm »
0

For the purposes of Tomb: who's doing the trashing when you play, say, Thief?
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michaeljb

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2016, 01:19:03 pm »
+4

For the purposes of Tomb: who's doing the trashing when you play, say, Thief?

The player who owns the card being trashed. "they trash one of them that you choose".

e: changed my quote to actually be from Thief's text.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 01:20:12 pm by michaeljb »
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2016, 01:20:09 pm »
+3

For the purposes of Tomb: who's doing the trashing when you play, say, Thief?

"Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck. If they revealed any Treasure cards, they trash one of them that you choose. You may gain any or all of these trashed cards. They discard the other revealed cards."

Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2016, 01:21:42 pm »
+1

SCSN is not going to be happy when Wolf is out.

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2016, 01:21:47 pm »
0

Also, while Market Square doesn't trigger with Gladiator's Supply trashing, Tomb does.
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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2016, 01:25:56 pm »
+7

Why is that? is it said in rules?

The rules specify what you can do, not what you can't; for anything game-related, you can't do it unless the rules allow you to.

Now, the one with a good memory becomes a strictly better player than the one with the bad, isn't it?

Yes. Fortunately you can play online with a point-counter, or you can agree to play a variant with your friends where you are all allowed to write down notes.

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2016, 01:35:48 pm »
+1

how can Excel not have a built in negative hypergeometric distribution!

I know, right!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #4: Landmarks
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2016, 01:36:11 pm »
+4

So I am guessing that the "When scoring" clause will prevent any point tracking system from adding the number of points from these landmarks to your total until at the end of the game?

I don't see how.... the 6 VP from Province is also given "when scoring"... since the only things that care about your score at any time other than the end of the game are unofficial point counters, it seems reasonable that such point counters would track if you have 10 Coppers just like they would track how many Silvers you have for the purpose of Feodum.

I think that is a reasonable interpretation, but I can see it going either way.

Feodum says nothing about "when scoring"

Quote
Worth 1 VP for every 3 Silvers in your deck (rounded down)

So I can see the interpretation for Feodum meaning that it is constantly refreshed, but that for Landmarks it is a one time scoring moment (at the end of the game).

Sure it's a valid point, but I think it's really just creating a meaningless distinction where none exists. Now if a Dominion card is ever created that requires a player to count his VP during the game, then suddenly this type of thing will matter. But unless that happens, VP is inherently a concept that means nothing until the game is over.
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