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Author Topic: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress  (Read 69480 times)

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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #100 on: May 12, 2016, 02:37:36 pm »
0

Yeah, Noble Brigand should probably have a dividing line. Although even if it did, Enchantress would still turn Noble Brigand into "+1 Card and +1 Action".
I guess just sticking "When you buy this, play it immediately" under a line was considered and rejected for some reason?
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dane-m

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #101 on: May 12, 2016, 02:38:26 pm »
+4

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
As of my latest rulings on Band of Misfits, you would not pick a card, you would just get +1 Card +1 Action.

Can you clarify on Noble Brigand?

If you look back at this post...

Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Because it's exactly the same as all the other cards that have an implicit "when-played" (i.e. all the cards).

...you'll see that Donald X voted it up.  I think that counts as a clarification on Noble Brigand.
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flaquito

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #102 on: May 12, 2016, 02:44:48 pm »
+2

Yeah, Noble Brigand should probably have a dividing line. Although even if it did, Enchantress would still turn Noble Brigand into "+1 Card and +1 Action".
I guess just sticking "When you buy this, play it immediately" under a line was considered and rejected for some reason?

I obviously can't speak for any previous version or playtesting, but that wording would have actually changed the card behavior quite a bit. That changes actions played/in play for things like Peddler and Conspirator. It also changes being able to react to gaining it, such as top-decking or trashing it with Watchtower.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #103 on: May 12, 2016, 02:47:48 pm »
+2

Yeah, Noble Brigand should probably have a dividing line. Although even if it did, Enchantress would still turn Noble Brigand into "+1 Card and +1 Action".
I guess just sticking "When you buy this, play it immediately" under a line was considered and rejected for some reason?

Well, this would grant you an extra +$1 and allow others to use reactions, so it's not the same.  Also, because buying triggers before gaining, it could create weird situations with Trader or Watchtower.  Actually, I think doing this would technically cause you to obtain 2 copies of NB per buy (you buy it, triggering the on-buy which puts it into play, then you gain the next copy of it from the pile).  Weird, I know.

I was going to suggest this under the line: "When you buy this, follow its instructions.". Still grants that extra coin though.
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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #104 on: May 12, 2016, 02:50:47 pm »
0

A question that's just occurred to me...

Is it grouped as "...the first time each other player [plays an Action card on their turn], they.." or "...the first time [each other player plays an Action card] on their turn, they.."?

In other words, if I play Outpost (or Mission/Possession/etc.) does the Enchantress affect both the turns I take before your next turn, or just the first of them?
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flaquito

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #105 on: May 12, 2016, 02:56:32 pm »
+1

A question that's just occurred to me...

Is it grouped as "...the first time each other player [plays an Action card on their turn], they.." or "...the first time [each other player plays an Action card] on their turn, they.."?

In other words, if I play Outpost (or Mission/Possession/etc.) does the Enchantress affect both the turns I take before your next turn, or just the first of them?

Elestan answered this a few posts ago.

I'm guessing Enchantress affects the first Action opponents play on each of their turns?  So if they take extra turns, the first Action they play on each of them becomes a cantrip?

Correct.
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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #106 on: May 12, 2016, 03:02:10 pm »
+1

Thanks. I searched for "Outpost", "Possession" etc. before asking. Just my luck the previous question didn't mention any specific cards. D'oh!
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flaquito

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #107 on: May 12, 2016, 03:12:58 pm »
0

Thanks. I searched for "Outpost", "Possession" etc. before asking. Just my luck the previous question didn't mention any specific cards. D'oh!

Isn't that always the way it works? :)
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Watno

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #108 on: May 12, 2016, 03:16:29 pm »
0

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
As of my latest rulings on Band of Misfits, you would not pick a card, you would just get +1 Card +1 Action.

Can you clarify on Noble Brigand?

If you look back at this post...

Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Because it's exactly the same as all the other cards that have an implicit "when-played" (i.e. all the cards).

...you'll see that Donald X voted it up.  I think that counts as a clarification on Noble Brigand.

So now I would think that Enchantress doesn't replace anything and just adds +1 card, +1 action to every card's effect. That doesn't seem likely though.
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Voltaire

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #109 on: May 12, 2016, 03:18:13 pm »
+8

So now I would think that Enchantress doesn't replace anything and just adds +1 card, +1 action to every card's effect. That doesn't seem likely though.

Sure, if you ignore the card and make up your own.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #110 on: May 12, 2016, 03:29:55 pm »
+6

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
As of my latest rulings on Band of Misfits, you would not pick a card, you would just get +1 Card +1 Action.

Can you clarify on Noble Brigand?

If you look back at this post...

Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Because it's exactly the same as all the other cards that have an implicit "when-played" (i.e. all the cards).

...you'll see that Donald X voted it up.  I think that counts as a clarification on Noble Brigand.

So now I would think that Enchantress doesn't replace anything and just adds +1 card, +1 action to every card's effect. That doesn't seem likely though.

It adds +1 card, +1 action, and a return statement.
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King Leon

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #111 on: May 12, 2016, 03:39:11 pm »
0

What will happen, if I react to Enchantress with a Caravan Guard? Is Caravan Guard's effect resolved, before Enchantress' effect comes into play or after?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 03:46:11 pm by King Leon »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #112 on: May 12, 2016, 03:40:28 pm »
+4

What will happen, if I react to Enchantress with a Caravan Guard? Is Caravan Guards effect resolves, before Enchantress' effect comes into play or after?

It says the first time someone plays an action on their turn.
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King Leon

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #113 on: May 12, 2016, 03:45:25 pm »
0

What will happen, if I react to Enchantress with a Caravan Guard? Is Caravan Guards effect resolves, before Enchantress' effect comes into play or after?

It says the first time someone plays an action on their turn.
Oh sorry, I did not read this ... Thank you.
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liopoil

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #114 on: May 12, 2016, 04:03:46 pm »
0

I think a double enchantress opening will be fairly common.
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nana-king

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #115 on: May 12, 2016, 04:06:12 pm »
+3

Great write up!

One thing that I really like about this card is how it can actually be helpful to the player getting attacked later in the game.  That chapel you have hanging around suddenly becomes a can-trip.  Or if you draw a hand with two terminals, fear not! Just play the least helpful one first and enjoy having an extra card.

Also, the pig in that art is too great.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #116 on: May 12, 2016, 04:09:36 pm »
+8

Can you clarify on Noble Brigand?
Noble Brigand says "when you play" because the text wouldn't fit on the card otherwise. It is functionally identical to "ability, dividing line, when you buy this ability."
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trivialknot

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #117 on: May 12, 2016, 04:18:27 pm »
0

Upon some reflection, I decided Enchantress should go in the same category as trashing attacks.

Imagine if knights, instead of trashing cards from the top of your deck, replaced them with cantrips.

Being attacked by Enchantress might actually help you if you have terminal collisions.  But come to think of it, couldn't being attacked by a knight do the same thing?
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Jeebus

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #118 on: May 12, 2016, 04:39:15 pm »
0

I see a problem with the German translation of BoM. It says: "Choose an action card from the supply which costs less than this Band of Misfits. Perform the chosen card, as if you had played it. As long this Band of Misfits is in play, it counts as the chosen card."

The first sentence is missing in the Englisch original. It seems that Enchantress would prevent German BoM to choose a card, while it does not do this with the English BoM.

Enchantress also prevents the English version; see earlier comments about the new ruling on BoM.

However, you're right that the German version is different. It doesn't tell you to play the chosen card, so in effect you just play BoM, and then resolve the play ability of the chosen card without actually playing it. Which matters for Conspirator and (maybe) player tokens.

Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #119 on: May 12, 2016, 04:39:44 pm »
+3

I guess just sticking "When you buy this, play it immediately" under a line was considered and rejected for some reason?
Having an effect when you buy a card works fine. Playing a card when you buy it means you played it (putting it into play) before gaining it, and may not even gain it. It's really wonky.

There was a lot of discussion of, could Noble Brigand be when-gain; Jester is an example of that being problematic. There was a version of Noble Brigand at one point that said, "when you gain this during your turn, play it." That gets rid of issues with e.g. Saboteur but leaves Jester.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #120 on: May 12, 2016, 11:41:37 pm »
0

I guess just sticking "When you buy this, play it immediately" under a line was considered and rejected for some reason?
Having an effect when you buy a card works fine. Playing a card when you buy it means you played it (putting it into play) before gaining it, and may not even gain it. It's really wonky.

There was a lot of discussion of, could Noble Brigand be when-gain; Jester is an example of that being problematic. There was a version of Noble Brigand at one point that said, "when you gain this during your turn, play it." That gets rid of issues with e.g. Saboteur but leaves Jester.

Man, then we would've had a (non-treasure) action card that could be played during your buy phase!
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 12:35:34 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #121 on: May 13, 2016, 12:36:37 am »
0

It looks to me like the wording of Enchantress would mean it would nullify everything on the first action played by other players, not just the on-play part.

It would be clearer if it said "Until your next turn, the first time another player plays an action card on their turn, they get +1 Card, +1 Action, instead of its on-play instructions." or "instead of its usual on-play effect."

Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #122 on: May 13, 2016, 12:57:39 am »
+1

It looks to me like the wording of Enchantress would mean it would nullify everything on the first action played by other players, not just the on-play part.

It would be clearer if it said "Until your next turn, the first time another player plays an action card on their turn, they get +1 Card, +1 Action, instead of its on-play instructions." or "instead of its usual on-play effect."
Ah, Love! could thou and I with Fate conspire
To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire!
Would not we shatter it to bits-and then
Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's Desire!

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Elestan

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #123 on: May 13, 2016, 01:03:30 am »
+2

It looks to me like the wording of Enchantress would mean it would nullify everything on the first action played by other players, not just the on-play part.

It would be clearer if it said "Until your next turn, the first time another player plays an action card on their turn, they get +1 Card, +1 Action, instead of its on-play instructions." or "instead of its usual on-play effect."

"The first time another player plays an action card" phrase on the card governs when Enchantress has its effect - namely, when that card is played.  Not after it's been played, not when it's being bought or gained.  The text on the card never actually changes; Enchantress only overrides the card's instructions during that card's on-play resolution.  Which has the same outcome as saying you're only overriding it's on-play instructions.

Stretching to the edge of hypothetical edge cases, if the enchanted card happened to have below-the-line text that could somehow manage to be triggered during the resolution of Enchantress' "+1 Card +1 Action" substitute effect, then I might see an argument that under the current wording, Enchantress would negate those below-the-line instructions, while your proposed wording would not.  But I would be quite surprised if we ever saw such a card.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 09:34:29 am by Elestan »
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Davio

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #124 on: May 13, 2016, 05:15:20 am »
0

Such great card design and great artwork, the pig is super cute!

Want to start your KC-chain? Mwahaaha.
This can really hurt chains that hoped to start off with a single Village.
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