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Author Topic: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress  (Read 69483 times)

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markusin

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2016, 11:52:08 am »
+2

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

Thinking of the on-play effect of Noble Brigand as being categorically distinct from that of every other card makes less sense to me...

It makes a lot of sense to me, since it's worded differently than every other card.

And why wouldn't the wording of Noble Brigand be technically correct? It does exactly what it says, it just does so with a different timing than other cards.

The wording is incorrect because it does NOT have a different timing than other cards. All action cards have an implicit "when you play this" not written on them; Noble Brigand basically reads "when you play this, when you buy or play this, each other player..."

Yeah this is my understanding of the issue with Noble Brigand's text.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2016, 11:56:46 am »
0

I think the issue is rather you projecting this "When you play this..." onto other cards, instead of just executing all instructions with non specified timings when a card is played.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2016, 11:56:56 am »
0

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

Thinking of the on-play effect of Noble Brigand as being categorically distinct from that of every other card makes less sense to me...

It makes a lot of sense to me, since it's worded differently than every other card.

And why wouldn't the wording of Noble Brigand be technically correct? It does exactly what it says, it just does so with a different timing than other cards.

The wording is incorrect because it does NOT have a different timing than other cards. All action cards have an implicit "when you play this" not written on them; Noble Brigand basically reads "when you play this, when you buy or play this, each other player..."

Yeah, Noble Brigand should probably have a dividing line. Although even if it did, Enchantress would still turn Noble Brigand into "+1 Card and +1 Action".
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #78 on: May 12, 2016, 11:57:35 am »
+1

I think the issue is rather you projecting this "When you play this..." onto other cards, instead of just executing all instructions with non specified timings when a card is played.

No, (almost) all Action cards have an implicit "When you play this,…"
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Elestan

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #79 on: May 12, 2016, 11:59:32 am »
+2

Elestan, do you have a BGG account, or should somebody else cross-post this over there?

I just posted it there...had to drop a lot of the formatting though.  :-P
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #80 on: May 12, 2016, 11:59:53 am »
0

Like Action–Treasure, the concept of "attack that prevents opponents from using their Action cards" has floated around the fan cards forums a lot and always been dismissed for brokenness or making the game unfun. I'm glad Donald found a way to make the idea work.

Most of them revolved around the idea of shutting down engines, while this one actually benefits them. So this is definitely more fun and balanced.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2016, 12:03:07 pm »
+1

Ooh, other fun fact, an opponent playing this can be the only way to give you more than 1 Action (like, the 'counter') if there's Throne/King's Court/Procession type card in a terminal kingdom.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2016, 12:04:33 pm »
+2

it's not, you need to play that TR/whatever first, so it doesn't double anything.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2016, 12:12:01 pm »
0

it's not, you need to play that TR/whatever first, so it doesn't double anything.

Ah, damn, you're right.
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Seprix

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2016, 12:21:21 pm »
+2

I'm almost more excited about the formatting by Elestan than the actual card, and the card is simply fantastic. I'm going to study that format, and possibly copy it for any future card reviews I might do in the future.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #85 on: May 12, 2016, 12:22:35 pm »
+5

I just noticed that the pig's snout is ever so slightly leaning over the bar on top of the area with the card text.  This is the first Dominion art to break the fourth wall.
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trivialknot

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #86 on: May 12, 2016, 12:27:53 pm »
+2

Prediction: Enchantress will become one of the most hated attacks, in disproportion to how powerful it is.  Skipping an action you bought feels terrible.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #87 on: May 12, 2016, 12:41:30 pm »
0

This card is awesome. That's all I have to say.
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Jeebus

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2016, 01:14:07 pm »
0

The wording is incorrect because it does NOT have a different timing than other cards. All action cards have an implicit "when you play this" not written on them; Noble Brigand basically reads "when you play this, when you buy or play this, each other player..."

No, because on Noble Brigand the "when you play this" is not implicit.

It's basically, "When you play this, each other player... <dividing line> When you buy this, each other player..."
Just like Smithy is, "When you play this, +3 Cards."

Alternatively, you can drop "when you play this" from both.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 01:15:25 pm by Jeebus »
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2016, 01:31:05 pm »
+9

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
As of my latest rulings on Band of Misfits, you would not pick a card, you would just get +1 Card +1 Action.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #90 on: May 12, 2016, 01:38:06 pm »
+3

The wording is incorrect because it does NOT have a different timing than other cards. All action cards have an implicit "when you play this" not written on them; Noble Brigand basically reads "when you play this, when you buy or play this, each other player..."

No, because on Noble Brigand the "when you play this" is not implicit.

It's basically, "When you play this, each other player... <dividing line> When you buy this, each other player..."
Just like Smithy is, "When you play this, +3 Cards."

Alternatively, you can drop "when you play this" from both.

I don't think you're actually disagreeing with me; because I agree with everything you just said. My point about "when you play this, when you play this" wording was to show how Noble Brigand is not technically worded correctly/consistently, because if you did read it literally the same as you read other cards, that is the weird wording you would get.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #91 on: May 12, 2016, 01:39:59 pm »
+3

Cards you can now have in play while nothing is being resolved:

Island, Feast, Band of Misfits, Wine Merchant, Distant Lands, Embargo, Madman, Treasure Map (others?)

Now I can finally Scheme my Treasure Maps!

Elestan

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2016, 01:56:09 pm »
+3

the Master had sent him down this highway with strict orders to squash anyone approaching.
Because you have to play Highway to get Prince of Giants? XD That's fantastic.

I knew that wouldn't slip past this crowd.  :-)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #93 on: May 12, 2016, 02:06:36 pm »
0

Very interesting attack.  I think it's not going to be as harmful as it first seems; a possible counter is simply to buy more action cards.  You can afford a higher terminal density if your opponent is enchanting you.

As for the effect of the card itself, it seems a bit weak to me.  It does nothing for you on the turn it's played.  I guess +2 cards next turn is still pretty good for this cost though.
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werothegreat

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #94 on: May 12, 2016, 02:19:25 pm »
0

I'm guessing Enchantress affects the first Action opponents play on each of their turns?  So if they take extra turns, the first Action they play on each of them becomes a cantrip?
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Elestan

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #95 on: May 12, 2016, 02:22:08 pm »
+1

I'm guessing Enchantress affects the first Action opponents play on each of their turns?  So if they take extra turns, the first Action they play on each of them becomes a cantrip?

Correct.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #96 on: May 12, 2016, 02:25:57 pm »
0

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?
As of my latest rulings on Band of Misfits, you would not pick a card, you would just get +1 Card +1 Action.

Can you clarify on Noble Brigand?
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flaquito

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #97 on: May 12, 2016, 02:30:24 pm »
0

I'm guessing Enchantress affects the first Action opponents play on each of their turns?  So if they take extra turns, the first Action they play on each of them becomes a cantrip?

Correct.

Similarly, it sounds like an Enchantress played on the same turn as an Outpost ends the attack immediately, although it does get you 5 cards for your Outpost turn.
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King Leon

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #98 on: May 12, 2016, 02:32:42 pm »
+1

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?

Huh, I'm not sure. I guess it only matters if you want to play Band of Misfits as a card that has Adventures tokens on its pile.

Matters for below-the-line stuff.

Right, of course. Good call.

I see a problem with the German translation of BoM. It says: "Choose an action card from the supply which costs less than this Band of Misfits. Perform the chosen card, as if you had played it. As long this Band of Misfits is in play, it counts as the chosen card."

The first sentence is missing in the Englisch original. It seems that Enchantress would prevent German BoM to choose a card, while it does not do this with the English BoM.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 02:35:24 pm by King Leon »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #99 on: May 12, 2016, 02:35:56 pm »
+1

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?

Huh, I'm not sure. I guess it only matters if you want to play Band of Misfits as a card that has Adventures tokens on its pile.

Matters for below-the-line stuff.

Right, of course. Good call.

I see a problem with the German translation of BoM. It says: "Choose an action card from the supply which costs less than this Band of Misfits. Perform the chosen card, as if you had played it. As long this Band of Misfits is in play, it counts as the chosen card."

The first sentence is missing in the Englisch original. It seems that Enchantress would prevent German BoM to choose a card, while it does not do this with the English BoM.

Despite other translations, all cards are played by the original English version.
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