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Author Topic: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress  (Read 27637 times)

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Moneymodel

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2016, 10:47:36 am »
+2

the Master had sent him down this highway with strict orders to squash anyone approaching.

Because you have to play Highway to get Prince of Giants? XD That's fantastic.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2016, 10:48:37 am »
0

Interesting that this is an attack that's pretty easy to help your opponent... they had terminal collision? You just saved them. Of course all attacks can theoretically end up helping your opponent, but this one seems a little less edge-casey.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2016, 10:48:44 am »
+1

Why would you get to choose anything with BoM. The thing that gets replaced is "Play this as if..." Thid doesn't happen, instead, +1 card, +1 action happens.

Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2016, 10:51:08 am »
+9

Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Because it's exactly the same as all the other cards that have an implicit "when-played" (i.e. all the cards).
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2016, 10:51:49 am »
0

Well... I think it is the same reason.  When you play Noble Brigand, the part that says "when you play this" gets replaced with +1 card/action, so you get that instead.  If it was below a line you would probably get it.

Cuzz

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2016, 10:55:02 am »
0

But there are very few circumstances in which it's right to react to Enchantress with a Moat. Village, Moat and no other actions is the first that comes to mind.

BM-Moat
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werothegreat

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2016, 10:56:08 am »
0

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?

My guess would be that you play the thing you select with BoM, and then that Action's text gets replaced by +1 Action, +1 Card.  That's going by the 'you never played BoM, you played that other thing instead' explanation of how BoM works.

The "you never played BoM" rule has been changed as a result of rules questions around getting token bonuses. The current rule is that you DID play BoM, as well as the card that it plays... so it counts for 2 cards played for Conspirator.

It makes sense, because BoM's wording is similar to Throne Room's.  All Action instructions have an implicit "when you play this" in front of them, so you do play Band of Misfits first.  Then BoM tells you to play itself (again) as a different card.  So you played two Actions.

By this logic, an Enchanted BoM only gives you +1 Card, +1 Action, and nothing else.

However, it would seem that Adventures token effects still happen, since they are not instructions on the card itself.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 10:57:25 am by werothegreat »
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Watno

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2016, 10:58:49 am »
0

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...". 
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2016, 11:00:00 am »
0

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

I'm guessing it's going to be defined in the rule book.
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Cuzz

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2016, 11:00:37 am »
+6

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

Thinking of the on-play effect of Noble Brigand as being categorically distinct from that of every other card makes less sense to me...
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2016, 11:01:45 am »
0


Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Can you explain why you think it wouldn't? Keep in mind that Noble Brigand is one of those cards, like Nomad Camp and Envoy, whose wording is not completely technically correct. But it's on-play effect is intended t be exactly the same like every other card.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2016, 11:07:24 am »
+1

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

Thinking of the on-play effect of Noble Brigand as being categorically distinct from that of every other card makes less sense to me...

It makes a lot of sense to me, since it's worded differently than every other card.

And why wouldn't the wording of Noble Brigand be technically correct? It does exactly what it says, it just does so with a different timing than other cards.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 11:15:13 am by Watno »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2016, 11:08:05 am »
+1

Just some rules clarification: If you play BoM as your first action, do you get choose whether Enchantress's on-play effect (changing to cantrip) or BoM's on-play effect resolves first?

My guess would be that you play the thing you select with BoM, and then that Action's text gets replaced by +1 Action, +1 Card.  That's going by the 'you never played BoM, you played that other thing instead' explanation of how BoM works.

The "you never played BoM" rule has been changed as a result of rules questions around getting token bonuses. The current rule is that you DID play BoM, as well as the card that it plays... so it counts for 2 cards played for Conspirator.

Ah, thanks.  We need a newsletter on this stuff.
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Jeebus

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2016, 11:16:04 am »
+2

The "you never played BoM" rule has been changed as a result of rules questions around getting token bonuses. The current rule is that you DID play BoM, as well as the card that it plays... so it counts for 2 cards played for Conspirator.

Yes, which means that BoM's play ability is timed just like any other play ability, so Enchantress will replace BoM's entire ability with "+1 Card, +1 Action".

Kirian

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2016, 11:16:32 am »
+2

+1 just for the bonus fanfic.
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Jeebus

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2016, 11:19:46 am »
+3


Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Can you explain why you think it wouldn't? Keep in mind that Noble Brigand is one of those cards, like Nomad Camp and Envoy, whose wording is not completely technically correct. But it's on-play effect is intended t be exactly the same like every other card.

Just like on special Treasures (including Relic!), "when you play this" on Noble Brigand is timed just like any other play ability. It's not timed like when-play abilities like Reactions or Urchin.

"Instructions" on Enchantress clearly means the play ability, since it talks about the instructions you follow when you play the card.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 11:24:10 am by Jeebus »
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flaquito

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2016, 11:23:19 am »
+3

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

Thinking of the on-play effect of Noble Brigand as being categorically distinct from that of every other card makes less sense to me...

It makes a lot of sense to me, since it's worded differently than every other card.

And why wouldn't the wording of Noble Brigand be technically correct? It does exactly what it says, it just does so with a different timing than other cards.

As far as I can see, the only reason Noble Brigand explicitly states "When you play this" is because it has the exact same effect for "When you buy this." It would have taken way too much space to put the same effect above the line to use with the implicit "When you play this" that every single card has, as well as doubling all the text under a line along with "When you buy this." There was no way to list the on-buy effect without explicitly stating "When you play this." I don't see that as being any different timing than other action cards. I see that as being a requirement of the English language.
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markusin

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2016, 11:23:34 am »
+1

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

Thinking of the on-play effect of Noble Brigand as being categorically distinct from that of every other card makes less sense to me...

It makes a lot of sense to me, since it's worded differently than every other card.

And wyh wouldn't the wording of Noble Brigand be technically correct? It does exayctly what it says, it just does so with adiffernet timing than other cards.

I think this perspective makes sense given that while-in-play effects are not replaced by Enchantress. That means there is some specific part of each card's text that constitutes an instruction, rather than the entire card text. It seems instruction needs a formal definition somewhere.

Noble Brigand's card text is really weird now that I think about it. It says do something when it is played, but it was already played by the time that instruction is reached. In theory, you can argue that Noble Brigand does nothing on play because you can't activate the when-played trigger when the card is already in play.

Well, if Noble Brigand's text has been confirmed to be an anomaly, there isn't much that can be done there.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2016, 11:25:53 am »
0


Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Can you explain why you think it wouldn't? Keep in mind that Noble Brigand is one of those cards, like Nomad Camp and Envoy, whose wording is not completely technically correct. But it's on-play effect is intended t be exactly the same like every other card.

Just like on special Treasures (including Relic!), "when you play this" on Noble Brigand is timed just like any other play ability. It's not timed like when-play abilities like Reactions or Urchin.

"Instructions" on Enchantress clearly means the play ability, since it talks about the instructions you follow when you play the card.

Where is this stated in the rules, or by Donald?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2016, 11:26:42 am »
+1

Noble Brigand's card text is really weird now that I think about it. It says do something when it is played, but it was already played by the time that instruction is reached. In theory, you can argue that Noble Brigand does nothing on play because you can't activate the when-played trigger when the card is already in play.

f.ds: where common sense doesn't matter

(I know you're talking about an admittedly weird card situation)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2016, 11:27:46 am »
+2

Fan fic plus a preview. Can't get better than this.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2016, 11:32:05 am »
0

Elestan, do you have a BGG account, or should somebody else cross-post this over there?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2016, 11:33:27 am »
0


Can someone explain why Noble Brigand's when-played effect gets replaced though?

Can you explain why you think it wouldn't? Keep in mind that Noble Brigand is one of those cards, like Nomad Camp and Envoy, whose wording is not completely technically correct. But it's on-play effect is intended t be exactly the same like every other card.

Just like on special Treasures (including Relic!), "when you play this" on Noble Brigand is timed just like any other play ability. It's not timed like when-play abilities like Reactions or Urchin.

"Instructions" on Enchantress clearly means the play ability, since it talks about the instructions you follow when you play the card.

Where is this stated in the rules, or by Donald?

Oh man. I have a lot of these rulings sources, but not this one. He has stated it several times when it comes to Treasures. For Relic it's clearly implied in the Dark Ages rulebook. I suggest you search on BGG or in the rules forums for "Noble Brigand".

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2016, 11:40:01 am »
0

Like Action–Treasure, the concept of "attack that prevents opponents from using their Action cards" has floated around the fan cards forums a lot and always been dismissed for brokenness or making the game unfun. I'm glad Donald found a way to make the idea work.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #4: Enchantress
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2016, 11:45:15 am »
+1

The problem is that the "instructions" of a card aren't defined anywhere. To me, it makes the most sense to consider it anything on the card that isn't conditiopned by some "when...".

Thinking of the on-play effect of Noble Brigand as being categorically distinct from that of every other card makes less sense to me...

It makes a lot of sense to me, since it's worded differently than every other card.

And why wouldn't the wording of Noble Brigand be technically correct? It does exactly what it says, it just does so with a different timing than other cards.

The wording is incorrect because it does NOT have a different timing than other cards. All action cards have an implicit "when you play this" not written on them; Noble Brigand basically reads "when you play this, when you buy or play this, each other player..."
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