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Author Topic: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market  (Read 16542 times)

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Watno

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Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« on: May 11, 2016, 04:40:53 pm »
+16

Quote from: AdamHorton
Twitch Highlight of live reveal
YouTube Video of live reveal



Farmers' Market: $3 Action-Gathering
+1 Buy
If there are 4 VP or more on the Farmers' Market Supply pile, take them and trash this. Otherwise, add 1 VP to the pile and then +$1 per 1 VP on the pile.


You may or may not already know this from other previews, so let's talk about the Gathering type. Some cards can put VP tokens on their supply piles, and then somehow you get those tokens. That's what Gathering cards do. Also, the wording about "4 VP or more": as of right now I don't know of a way to get more than 4 VP on the pile, but who knows, maybe it could come up in the future...

Let's do the "easy" comparison first: you play Farmers' Market five times, you get a total of $10, 5 buys, and 4 VP tokens. This comes out to an average of a card that looks like this:

Average Farmers' Market: $3 Action
+1 Buy
+$2
+0.8 VP tokens

Once you play this five times, trash it.


This looks like a pretty favorable comparison to Monument until you get to that last part, especially considering this guy only costs $3. Still, seems like a pretty solid card without even considering that it becomes very important when it's the only +Buy on the board -- it's like a Woodcutter/Monument mix, priced pretty competitively, but you have to re-buy it if you play it too much. I don't think the spiky distribution of money counts against it all that much. Let's put this in perspective, though, comparing favorably to Woodcutter and Monument is something many Dominion cards do quite easily, so that doesn't mean FM is a top-tier card in terms of power level (it isn't) -- the fact that it's pretty slow is something important to keep in mind.

And I should say that almost all of the time, you're going to want those points, getting the points is way, way better than getting money and the exceptions to this are rare.

Strategy:

Any time a card provides another way to score points, you have to figure out how many points you can score using that card, and how much time/work it will take to score those points (oh man you've already seen quite a lot of that in the previews and it's one of my favorite things about this set). We know that you can get up to 40 VP tokens with Farmers' Market, which is enough to offset a 6-2 Province deficit. That's a lot of points, and even better, they're VP tokens which are way better than green cards. The potential of this card is huge. It even becomes infinite with Rogue or Graverobber on the board.

But you're not guaranteed to get all of those points: any of your opponents could hit the VP jackpot after you've put all that hard work into getting those tokens on the pile. There's a dance to be danced to make sure you're getting more VP tokens than your opponent. Let's say that together you run the pile and get all 40 VP available, if you get 6 of those jackpots, that's an 8VP swing you have, it's more than a Province, that's a big deal. If you don't run the pile you can look at it like every time you manufacture a way to get those VP for yourself, you got 4VP on your opponent, and every time you snipe one from your opponent, it's an 8 VP swing. Of course this is the most optimistic way to look at it in terms of points, but considering the potential of the card when uncontested or contested poorly is very important.

So what is this dance and how do you do it? Let's talk about the one-card kingdom of Farmers' Market: Certainly you get them, and it's just like any other non-drawing terminal, you want to play it a lot of turns but not have them collide. There's not much you can do here other than just get more of them to try playing FM more than your opponent, but there's a lot of luck involved here.

What about the case where there are no villages and you can somewhat reliably play Farmers' Market once per turn? The hilarious thing is that the right thing to do is to have the card in your deck, but don't play it if you think your opponent can get the VP on the following turn. So you can end up with this card in your deck that you have just for the threat of playing it. Good times, huh? In any case, it's certainly an opportunity to outwit your opponent. I should also say that in games with more than 2 players, something similar to this strategy ends up being good a lot of the time, where you don't play your Farmers' Markets unless you can get the VP that turn and/or it's far enough away that your control becomes too little to matter.

In some cases the buy is just more important than all of this hullabaloo, so you play it anyways, but I'd say this happens more in the late game and I wouldn't make a habit out of doing this.

Then there are the games when you can play multiple Farmers' Markets in a turn. You've got this terminal payload card that adds a new phase to the game where you're building up longer than normal because you get these VP tokens in the process. The trick to dancing here is all about pile control, but this time you're controlling the number of VP tokens on the pile and not necessarily the number of cards in the pile. You'll have to keep track of how many FMs your opponent can play on a turn and try to build your deck so you can play more than them -- doing this gives you the trick of leaving the VP on the pile at juuuust the right amount where your opponent can't collect VP on their turn, but they also can't stop you from collecting on your next turn. Shutting them out like this is a big deal.

In this case, when you're looking for the best synergies, you find cards that work well with all kinds of terminal payload cards, so King's Court, Royal Carriage, and Throne Room are the stars of the show, though they don't actually increase the total number of VP you can get from Farmers' Markets in one game, sadly.

The neat thing, though, is that it actually plays nice with other terminal payload cards, since the Farmers' Markets will eventually go away and in the process they give you money and buys, which can be used to buy the terminal payload cards you can replace them with. For this reason, it is often good to get Farmers' Markets in the early-to-mid game as you're still building your deck, before going on to whatever other payload there is. Maybe you just want to replace it with terminal draw because you're greening. Maybe the other terminal payload is so strong that the points from FM are just too slow to compete so you skip it. Or maybe the other terminal payload helps you build up faster early and can win you the village split (being faster than a Woodcutter isn't terribly difficult to do).

So that's Farmers' Market. It gives you VP and it gives you a buy, which make it very important on a lot of boards, despite its slower tempo.[/q]
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 04:41:59 pm by Watno »
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Seprix

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2016, 04:51:28 pm »
0

Seems average, reminds me of Fool's Gold. Uncontested 4VP, can be strong in the long run for engines. Contested, the 4VP instantly loses all meaning unless you can play 4 a turn or unless you think you can get the 3rd and 4th play in before your opponent, and even that dance won't last long because the card will trash itself eventually. The 4 VP is more of a bonus, the real excitement of this card is going to be the +buy.
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LaLight

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2016, 04:55:30 pm »
+3

dunno what to say about the card, but art slightly reminds me of HoMM 2, human castle =)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2016, 05:01:15 pm »
0

Collecting the VP is paramount, but your competitor(s) might get the points - seems like a delicate dance.
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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2016, 05:03:00 pm »
0

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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2016, 05:05:36 pm »
+2

I love the art!  Also, there are too many people now with Procession avatars...
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Awaclus

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2016, 05:08:00 pm »
+1

Seems average, reminds me of Fool's Gold.
Er... Fool's Gold isn't average!

That article is 4 years old. Fool's Gold is pretty average.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2016, 05:24:12 pm »
+6

Possible plays of this card:

+$1, +1 Buy (terrible)
+$2, +1 Buy (woodcutter)
+$3, +1 Buy (terminal gold)
+$4, +1 Buy (awesome money)
+4VP, +1 Buy, trash this (super efficient VP purchase)

With timing being so crucial, I expect this to play well with Transmogrify and Summon.  It also works well with King's Court, which takes you through 3 steps on its own.  Adam mentions it as a card that "work(s) well with all kinds of terminal payload cards", but I think covering many steps is the crucial bit since it makes it that much easier for you to score the VP. 

It's going to feel so swingy with 3+ players.

Edit: removing accidental strikethrough from writing [s]...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 06:42:56 pm by eHalcyon »
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Orange

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2016, 06:28:51 pm »
0

"or more"?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2016, 06:29:31 pm »
+6

"or more"?

Never can be too careful.
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faust

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2016, 06:29:40 pm »
+10

I thought this card would be:

+1 action
+1$
+1 buy
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action or Treasure. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.
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Voltaire

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2016, 06:29:45 pm »
0

"or more"?

Quote
Also, the wording about "4 VP or more": as of right now I don't know of a way to get more than 4 VP on the pile, but who knows, maybe it could come up in the future...
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Orange

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2016, 06:29:49 pm »
0

Best of the bonus previews.  Appreciate the analysis.
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Seprix

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2016, 06:29:57 pm »
+1

"or more"?

You can presumably add more VP tokens onto cards with Landmarks or Events not shown yet.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2016, 06:31:46 pm »
+9

The art for this features a disappointing lack of waxed mustaches and NPR totebags.
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faust

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2016, 06:33:38 pm »
+12

Gotta say I dislike putting long strategy articles into previews. Leave that stuff for us to figure out in our own time, man. (Yeah, yeah, Adam won't read this, but I'm too lazy to make a reddit account just to tell him.)
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Chris is me

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2016, 07:00:27 pm »
+2

Gotta say I dislike putting long strategy articles into previews. Leave that stuff for us to figure out in our own time, man. (Yeah, yeah, Adam won't read this, but I'm too lazy to make a reddit account just to tell him.)

He'll still read this, he just won't post here out of protest / a weird sense of pride about the whole drama explosion. In this case, with it being an official preview or whatever, it's more annoying than anything else.

Hey, if I'm wrong, he'll never read this comment, right?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2016, 07:02:15 pm »
+2

I just don't read long walls of text. I need more pictures
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2016, 07:07:05 pm »
+2

Gotta say I dislike putting long strategy articles into previews. Leave that stuff for us to figure out in our own time, man. (Yeah, yeah, Adam won't read this, but I'm too lazy to make a reddit account just to tell him.)

Well, you can just not read the commentary if you don't want to. 



I'm pretty curious about the testing for this card.  You crack the VP on the fifth play of the card.  Was it tested with 4 plays?  6 plays?
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Watno

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2016, 07:09:07 pm »
+1

Luckily, there's a picture at the top. I didn't read the text, I just copied it.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2016, 07:26:52 pm »
0

The art on this card is my favourite so far of the set.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2016, 07:57:27 pm »
+1

Gotta say I dislike putting long strategy articles into previews. Leave that stuff for us to figure out in our own time, man. (Yeah, yeah, Adam won't read this, but I'm too lazy to make a reddit account just to tell him.)

Well, you can just not read the commentary if you don't want to. 



I'm pretty curious about the testing for this card.  You crack the VP on the fifth play of the card.  Was it tested with 4 plays?  6 plays?

5 makes it a terminal Silver on average which is pretty standard and also makes it easier to compare to other cards.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2016, 08:05:56 pm »
+3

I'm pretty curious about the testing for this card.  You crack the VP on the fifth play of the card.  Was it tested with 4 plays?  6 plays?
I didn't try it every which way, but this wasn't the only version.
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DG

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2016, 08:28:47 pm »
+1

Gotta say I dislike putting long strategy articles into previews. Leave that stuff for us to figure out in our own time, man. (Yeah, yeah, Adam won't read this, but I'm too lazy to make a reddit account just to tell him.)

I think something to get the reader thinking about possibilities is a good thing. It is a teaser after all. It also doesn't really matter what Adam says about when not to play the farmer's market. I'm guessing that particular discussion will keep running as long people play Dominion.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #3: Farmers' Market
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2016, 08:31:43 pm »
0

5 makes it a terminal Silver on average which is pretty standard and also makes it easier to compare to other cards.

Sure, but I think the cycle is more important than the average case and makes it really hard to compare to other cards, even with a cycle of 5.

I didn't try it every which way, but this wasn't the only version.

I hope the secret histories will go into those other versions, and why you settled on 5!
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