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Author Topic: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens  (Read 24579 times)

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Ankenaut

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2016, 02:10:00 pm »
+2

There was a lot you could do with VP tokens, and I did a lot with them. Nine of the kingdom card piles use them

I hope one of these 9 is a split pile with debt cost.
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math

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2016, 02:12:55 pm »
+2

Groundskeeper will probably become a trap for inexperienced players, similar to Hoard.  "I play my Groundskeeper, now I can buy a Duchy and get 4 VP!"
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Ankenaut

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2016, 02:13:12 pm »
0

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.
That suggests "no card" is cheaper than zero-cost cards, so you could win a Chariot Race with a Curse?

Well, it is true that no card is cheaper than a $0 card.   ;)
Not that we've seen anyway. We need an Alt-Curse pile with negative cost.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2016, 02:14:03 pm »
+9

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?
Actually, what happens if your neighbour's deck (and discard pile) is empty?
What if yours is?

In normal mathematical terms, real numbers are incomparable with not-a-numbers, so intuition fails me here.

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.

Nope! If either you can't reveal a card or your opponent can't reveal a card, you can't make the comparison, so you don't get +$1 or +1 VP.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2016, 02:15:47 pm »
+5

Is this why 'differently named' was introduced, to prevent it from being more powerful?  Or do we have to wait for a Secret History for this type of question?
It's just part of the card concept.
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math

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2016, 02:17:29 pm »
0

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?
Actually, what happens if your neighbour's deck (and discard pile) is empty?
What if yours is?

In normal mathematical terms, real numbers are incomparable with not-a-numbers, so intuition fails me here.

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.

Nope! If either you can't reveal a card or your opponent can't reveal a card, you can't make the comparison, so you don't get +$1 or +1 VP.

Hmm, so a standard Bishop Golden deck nullifies your opponent's Chariot Race.  Interesting.
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crj

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2016, 02:18:35 pm »
0

That suggests "no card" is cheaper than zero-cost cards, so you could win a Chariot Race with a Curse?
Well, it is true that no card is cheaper than a $0 card.   ;)
Ah yes, but it's equally true that no card is more expensive than a $99 card.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2016, 02:19:01 pm »
+9

The art has really improved so far :) That's the most important observation, right?
Yes, this is nice artwork!

It's bugging me a little that the Groundskeeper's t-shirt looks anachronistic, though.

Seriously.  I still need a Chariot to get around but I have fingertip gloves and a t-shirt with modern hems for my gardening?

It's obviously a Temporum crossover! The Groundskeeper has a time machine.
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Voltaire

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2016, 02:22:20 pm »
+1

What I like the most about Chariot Race is it that it seems like a cantrip VP card should be broken but somehow it isn't.
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Burning Skull

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2016, 02:31:21 pm »
+1

Groundskeeper seems super strong actually.
And I don't even know her!

eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2016, 02:38:32 pm »
+3

With VP tokens, it's a concern whether the card can lead to degenerate situations where no decks advance and players just sit there accumulating VP tokens for the rest of their lives. 

Goons almost guaranteed it (edit: and by "it", I mean "the game ending eventually") by requiring you to buy cards, eventually leading to a 3-pile even if it took a long time (exceptions: Trader, Ambassador shenanigans). 

Bishop encouraged it by offering more VP for trashing, which then requires you to buy stuff and, again, head towards a 3-pile ending (exceptions: Fortress, Graverobber, Rogue). 

Monument encouraged it by giving you $2 that you want to spend, which once more pushes towards a 3-pile ending if nothing else.  Those unending scenarios could still come up (Bishop-Fortress is probably the easiest) but they are rare. 

Do these cards do anything to move towards a game end?

Groundskeeper requires you to gain cards, so it's like Goons.

Temple encourages players to buy more Temples (to gain the VP that's placed there) so at least that pile will empty eventually, but otherwise... eh.  It trashes though, which should help players to build a better deck that can end the game.

Chariot Race is a Peddler whenever it grants VP, so it's kind of like Monument in giving you money you want to spend.  It's also unreliable, so it's tougher to get into a stable back-and-forth where all the players have to keep gaining more VP and doing nothing else or else be forced into a loss.

Sounds good, I guess?

In raw power, I think Groundskeeper has a lower ceiling than Goons.  It only works for Victory cards, it doesn't have +Buy, it doesn't even give coins to help you buy stuff.  But it's cantrip so you can chain them more easily, and it works with gainers.  Where Goons games start slow and get bigger until a game-ending VP explosion (or a sudden 3-pile), I think Groundskeeper will provide a steady drip.  I can see it encouraging alt greening as well, because you'll be much more inclined to buy Estates or Duchies with a few Groundskeepers in play.  Groundskeeper is at a price point with lots of competition and doesn't help you build your deck, so it probably won't be bought early... unless rushing Estates/Duchies is especially powerful.  Hm.

I think Groundskeeper will love Distant Lands.

Temple is strange.  The trashing is mediocre, and the VP seems especially slow.  But the Gathering mechanism here seems like something that will push players into group think.  One player buys Temple while the others ignore it.  That player slowly gains more VP tokens, which may make others wary.  But VP tokens may also accumulate on the Temple pile, until another player gives in and buys it.  Now tokens build up on the Temple pile even more quickly, making it even more attractive to buy more... and so goes the snowball.  It may also create an all-in mentality, if the first Temple player is also the one who buys the second Temple and its gathered tokens.  Actually, this may happen more than the multiplayer snowball, because I sure don't want you to get all those VP tokens without suffering the same opportunity cost of having a terminal Temple in your deck for a few shuffles.

If the Temple pile is empty, you still continue adding VP tokens to it, right?  But there's no way to get those tokens without Ambassador shenanigans (or something unrevealed)?

Chariot Race seems swingy, depending on what you uncover from the other player's deck.  Copper, the rest of your Chariot Races will be good times.  Province, your day at the track is ruined.  It'll be better with some deck inspection attacks, and if you trash down vs. an opponent who still has all their starting Copper.  But even though it's great when it hits, it's also kind of bad when it doesn't.  I think that unreliability will make this a weak and ignorable card on most boards, but it will still be bought often and overrated because people love to gamble and the highs are pretty high here.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 07:17:37 pm by eHalcyon »
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werothegreat

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2016, 02:38:38 pm »
0

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?
Actually, what happens if your neighbour's deck (and discard pile) is empty?
What if yours is?

In normal mathematical terms, real numbers are incomparable with not-a-numbers, so intuition fails me here.

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.

Nope! If either you can't reveal a card or your opponent can't reveal a card, you can't make the comparison, so you don't get +$1 or +1 VP.

What!?  The rulings for Chariot Race and Gladiator seem to be inconsistent here.  :P
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Phil

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2016, 02:43:56 pm »
+5

What!?  The rulings for Chariot Race and Gladiator seem to be inconsistent here.  :P

The key is that Chariot Race is a positive "If yours is worth more", and Gladiator is a negative "If they do not".  A nonexistent card cannot be worth more than anything, but a nonexistent card is definitely not a reveal of a matching card (even if it is itself nonexistent).
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2016, 02:45:33 pm »
0

Hm... if you get a big King's Court-y engine going (Royal Carriages, too), you'll probably just want to clear the Temple pile the same turn you load a bunch of tokens onto it.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2016, 02:48:02 pm »
+1

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?
Actually, what happens if your neighbour's deck (and discard pile) is empty?
What if yours is?

In normal mathematical terms, real numbers are incomparable with not-a-numbers, so intuition fails me here.

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.

Nope! If either you can't reveal a card or your opponent can't reveal a card, you can't make the comparison, so you don't get +$1 or +1 VP.

What!?  The rulings for Chariot Race and Gladiator seem to be inconsistent here.  :P

Not inconsistent, it's just following the wording on the card.

Gladiator: You get the +$1 and Gladiator trashing if the opponent does not reveal a copy of a card you revealed.  If you didn't reveal a card, the opponent can't reveal a copy of it since there is no "it" to speak of!

Chariot Race: You only get the bonus if you reveal a card that costs more than a card your opponent revealed.  You can only make that comparison if both players reveal a card.
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crj

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2016, 02:50:57 pm »
+1

Goons almost guaranteed it by requiring you to buy cards, eventually leading to a 3-pile even if it took a long time (exceptions: Trader, Ambassador shenanigans).
How does Trader... wait... *thinks*

Gosh, the idea of reacting to a gain with Trader when the Silvers were all gone had never occurred to me before!
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2016, 02:51:14 pm »
0

Wohoo - VP tokens. Everybody loves VP tokens!

Absolutely now idea how good they're going be. How many Groundskeepers do you buy for your engine before greening? No clue. I guess we'll see how they play out. I'm especially excited to hear, that there are even more VP token cards to come.
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gloures

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #67 on: May 11, 2016, 03:20:54 pm »
+7

Now we need to have a ''magic" card type so we can have a "magic - gathering" card...   :P
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2016, 03:24:34 pm »
+1

Is that why the hexagons on Capital are redder than the really rather orange hexagons on City Quarter and Royal Blacksmith?
Probably?

Any mistake you find on the images might be a real mistake, but some things are entirely this shrinking process.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2016, 03:27:39 pm »
+6

That's funny...I posted this in February as a suggestion for art for a card called Florist:

She has some pieces that might work well for some of these:

Florist


...

These might actually have been used for other games, I'm sort of unclear on exactly what these are from.  I think they both look very Dominion-y though.

The image is gone now, but it was actually the art for Groundskeeper!
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #70 on: May 11, 2016, 03:29:58 pm »
0

I was under the impression that the art was made on demand; in some cases artists already have a piece that fits?
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #71 on: May 11, 2016, 03:31:09 pm »
+2

I find the similarity between Chariot Race and the Joust mechanic in Hearthstone... intriguing.
I am unfamiliar with Hearthstone. Magic did cost-comparing with clash in Lorwyn, and then there's, you know, War.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #72 on: May 11, 2016, 03:31:21 pm »
+4

That's funny...I posted this in February as a suggestion for art for a card called Florist:

She has some pieces that might work well for some of these:

Florist


...

These might actually have been used for other games, I'm sort of unclear on exactly what these are from.  I think they both look very Dominion-y though.

The image is gone now, but it was actually the art for Groundskeeper!

Look what else I found on her website:



Yes, he's wearing glasses. Are glasses a Roman thing?
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Titandrake

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2016, 03:34:48 pm »
+1

Predictions:

Groundskeeper won't be as insane as it looks. In money based-strategies you can't get enough out in play per turn. In engine strategies it will be tricky to justify buying Groundskeeper until right before the ending turns. It will definitely play a role, but I don't it as board warping unless it's combined with support that makes gaining lots of Groundskeeper easy. You miss out on 3 VP from a Duchy in exchange for a cantrip that encourages you to buy more VP than usual, so you'll clog faster, and you need Groundskeeper's VP tokens to overcome the VP you'll lose from not buying the most efficient VP/cost cards like Province/Colony.

Temple will be about as strong as Doctor. It may be explosively good in games with Throne Room, King's Court, or Crown, since you can play lots of Temples then buy a Temple instead of buying VP. Very unsure here.

Chariot Race feels very strong. Engines will buy this over Silver for days. Money decks that don't use too much terminal draw will do the same.
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timchen

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2016, 03:58:56 pm »
0

Groundskeeper is probably most dominant in megaturns. Just need an engine and several +buys.
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