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Author Topic: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens  (Read 24595 times)

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Burning Skull

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2016, 01:11:58 pm »
0

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Orange

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2016, 01:13:27 pm »
0

The art has really improved so far :) That's the most important observation, right?
Yes, this is nice artwork!

It's bugging me a little that the Groundskeeper's t-shirt looks anachronistic, though.

Seriously.  I still need a Chariot to get around but I have fingertip gloves and a t-shirt with modern hems for my gardening?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2016, 01:15:07 pm »
+2

2vp seems odd and redundant to me. Why not a larger denomination? Maybe we'll see a reason for it in another card, but it seems weird to have those components that provide so little extra compared to the 1vps.

yuma

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2016, 01:16:59 pm »
+1

The art has really improved so far :) That's the most important observation, right?
Yes, this is nice artwork!

It's bugging me a little that the Groundskeeper's t-shirt looks anachronistic, though.

I was actually looking for art for the Florist fan card in the Treasure Box Context set and came across this art and while I liked it ultimately rejected suggesting it because the clothing looked too modern. Who would have thought it would actually be Dominion Art?
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SirSlugma

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2016, 01:19:22 pm »
0

Chariot Race is so much fun. It doesn't screw you like Tribute can, but you still get that tasty non-attack interaction. And it doesn't even discard your opponent's cards, how nice for them! I'm sure there are some synergies where it works out well (like wishing well has) but it's just a very enjoyable card to play.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2016, 01:20:23 pm »
+2

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2016, 01:21:54 pm »
+5

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?

In order: Yes, Yes, No.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2016, 01:25:42 pm »
+1

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?

Note that this question isn't new to Chariot Race; same things mattered for any cards that have "up to" or "less than" in the wording (Border Village, Workshop, etc).
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2016, 01:28:43 pm »
0

2vp seems odd and redundant to me. Why not a larger denomination? Maybe we'll see a reason for it in another card, but it seems weird to have those components that provide so little extra compared to the 1vps.

10 or 20 would have been much more useful.

Groundskeeper gives Watchtower another boost.  Buy an Estate, gain VP from Groundskeeper, LOL no thanks I didn't want the Estate.

I find the similarity between Chariot Race and the Joust mechanic in Hearthstone... intriguing.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 01:29:45 pm by Kirian »
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2016, 01:31:49 pm »
+2

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?

Note that this question isn't new to Chariot Race; same things mattered for any cards that have "up to" or "less than" in the wording (Border Village, Workshop, etc).

And remember ¬(costs more than) ⇏ (costs less than or equal to)
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2016, 01:33:24 pm »
0

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?

In order: Yes, Yes, No.

So basically match the currencies on the opponent's card, then have an additional one or more of anything in the cost, same or different currency?  Thanks.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2016, 01:34:31 pm »
+1

Is it just me, or is Temple slightly darker in color than normal Actions?
It won't be. That's an issue with the software that shrinks the giant files down to something manageable to email me to proofread. We spotted it and struggled to find the problem and well, something about that conversion process.

Similarly this means my images have some numbers on coins that are off from where they actually are, and there's like a glitch next to the red hexagon that isn't there.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 02:52:43 pm by Donald X. »
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2016, 01:35:17 pm »
+3

Can you say how many of each VP token denomination come with Empires?
Not yet.
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ced

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2016, 01:39:17 pm »
0

I foresee Groundskeeper completely changing the way you green. An uncontested Groundskeeper stack will beat a Province stack if given time to green, forcing your opponent to either rush the endgame or mirror you. I think the key to this card is knowing which pile to go for. You could simply use Groundskeepers for extra points on your Province buys, but they do offer the opportunity of going for one of the lesser VP piles. It might not always be viable to empty both Estates and Duchies - you junk yourself up so much that an opponent has time to build more and go for Provinces anyway. I suspect you'll need to be able to 3pile on Groundskeeper/Duchy/X where X is an engine piece/curse/whatever, then you leave the Estates as consolation for when you don't hit 5.

Temple has a few things going on. As a trasher it's quite poor. Early on it can get Copper+Estate, but mostly it will just trash individual Coppers (though it gets better with Shelters). The easiest comparision is Bishop, but it doesnt have Bishop's payload potential or symmetry drawback. At least getting VP for something you're gonna do anyway is cool. Donald X briefly explains the gathering mechanic here, though he doesn't specify whether the trigger to gain the gathered piles is the same on each Gatherer card. I'm guessing it won't be.

Chariot Race looks like a card you pick up early and often and then you just let it accumulate VP. Its cantrip nature makes this easy to do most likely. It's great with ways to manipulate the top of the opponent's deck e.g. Spy. It is, however, very hard to manipulate your own deck to block opposing Races. Trashing down super-thin is the most relevant way, but a stack of 6 Alchemists would do the trick (only two cards "cost more" than an Alch), and Stash can on the reshuffle.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2016, 01:40:01 pm »
0

Is it just me, or is Temple slightly darker in color than normal Actions?
It won't be. That's an issue with the software that shrinks the giant files down to something manageable to email me to proofread. We spotted it and struggled to find the problem and well, something about that conversion process.

Similarly this means my images have some numbers on text that are off from where they actually are, and there's like a glitch next to the red hexagon that isn't there.

Is that why the hexagons on Capital are redder than the really rather orange hexagons on City Quarter and Royal Blacksmith?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2016, 01:41:27 pm »
+1

I'm starting to get super overwhelmed with the number of new things in Empires, in a way I didn't with Guilds or Adventures. I dunno, maybe that'll ultimately be a good thing.
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crj

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2016, 01:45:21 pm »
0

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?
Actually, what happens if your neighbour's deck (and discard pile) is empty?
What if yours is?

In normal mathematical terms, real numbers are incomparable with not-a-numbers, so intuition fails me here.

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Orange

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2016, 01:46:51 pm »
0

Will there be suggested kingdoms with this set?  I had a fun time a couple years ago playing through 16 or 18 suggested setups on the weekend of Dark Ages' release.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2016, 01:46:56 pm »
+1

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?

In order: Yes, Yes, No.

So basically match the currencies on the opponent's card, then have an additional one or more of anything in the cost, same or different currency?  Thanks.

Not sure if your sentence includes this or not, but you cannot have less of any currency types at all, even if you have more of all the others and more types. In other words, Golem does not cost more than Laboratory.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2016, 01:49:40 pm »
0

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?
Actually, what happens if your neighbour's deck (and discard pile) is empty?
What if yours is?

In normal mathematical terms, real numbers are incomparable with not-a-numbers, so intuition fails me here.

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2016, 01:57:37 pm »
+1

9 VP token cards!  That quadruples the number we currently have.

Groundskeeper -- Compared to Bishop, this suggests a very different kind of golden deck, one that depends on Estates rather than Provinces.  This is better because a non-golden opponent will take a long time to buy all the provinces.  But it's also worse because you need a way to end the game after the Estates are gone.

Temple -- Do you want this card early to trash cards, or late to get all the VP accumulated on the Temple supply?  Why not both?

Chariot Race -- Here it is, the cantrip VP card that doesn't do anything to bring the game closer to an ending.  Isn't that against the fan card creation guide?  On the other hand, for Chariot Race to actually be any good, you need to put expensive cards in your deck.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2016, 01:58:41 pm »
+2

Will there be suggested kingdoms with this set?  I had a fun time a couple years ago playing through 16 or 18 suggested setups on the weekend of Dark Ages' release.

Yes, there will be suggested kingdoms.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2016, 02:03:07 pm »
0

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.
That suggests "no card" is cheaper than zero-cost cards, so you could win a Chariot Race with a Curse?
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math

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2016, 02:09:03 pm »
+2

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.
That suggests "no card" is cheaper than zero-cost cards, so you could win a Chariot Race with a Curse?

Well, it is true that no card is cheaper than a $0 card.   ;)
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2016, 02:09:52 pm »
0

2vp seems odd and redundant to me. Why not a larger denomination? Maybe we'll see a reason for it in another card, but it seems weird to have those components that provide so little extra compared to the 1vps.

10 or 20 would have been much more useful.

Groundskeeper gives Watchtower another boost.  Buy an Estate, gain VP from Groundskeeper, LOL no thanks I didn't want the Estate.

I find the similarity between Chariot Race and the Joust mechanic in Hearthstone... intriguing.

Yeah I also thought of Hearthstone's Joust mechanic when reading Chariot Race. The big difference is that in Dominion you can actually manipulate the top of a player's deck. Spy was already mentioned as an enabler for this. Plus there's a sort of Mystic thing going with the top card of the opponent's deck always being the same.

I think Groundskeeper is the most exciting card here. A Pure alt-VP card that requires a strong sense of timing to get the best use of it. Encourages mega turns, consistent engines, and golden decks. Heck, just trashing VP and regaining it with Rogue/Graverobbers while Groundskeeper is in play can be the next Bishop/Fortress. Pricing it at $5 seems like the right call.
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