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Author Topic: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens  (Read 25889 times)

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Donald X.

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Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« on: May 11, 2016, 12:24:11 pm »
+35

One major theme of Empires is VP tokens and well here is some of that. VP tokens appeared in Prosperity, originally just on Monument, but on Bishop and Goons too by the time the set was released. They haven't been used since because well you have to include the tokens. But we included the tokens so we were set. In fact there are three denominations of tokens this time: 1 VP, 2 VP, and 5 VP. The 2 VP ones are the same size as 1 VP but a different color; the 5 VP ones are bigger. That was what we could manage so that's what we did.



Groundskeeper is pretty basic; all VP cards you gain under her watch come with extra VP. That applies to both bought and otherwise gained cards, which can sometimes be exciting. They're cumulative; you can play a line of four Groundskeepers, buy an Estate and get +4 VP.

Temple is more exotic. The basic function of the card both gives you VP and puts VP on the pile - sitting right there on the Temples. And then someone buying a Temple takes that VP. So playing Temple is a VP now for you, and a VP later for someone, could be you or someone else. Temple has this weird word "Gathering" on the bottom, I should say something there. Well uh. It groups together a few cards that put VP on their piles, and lets another card refer to them (in a "let's not mess this up" way). So that's that.

Chariot Race is a funny one. You get a card (the one you reveal) and an Action no matter what; you also get +$1 and +1 VP if your card is costlier than theirs. Their card is the same all turn usually, so after the first Chariot Race you will know what your other Chariot Races are up against.

There was a lot you could do with VP tokens, and I did a lot with them. Nine of the kingdom card piles use them, and then there are all those Landmarks and Events. But those stories are for another day. Well more specifically, tomorrow and the next day, and then later when the Secret History goes up.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2016, 12:27:04 pm »
+11

Play sea hag
Play chariot race x times
???
PROFIT

Edit: Spy gets much more better
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 12:28:42 pm by LaLight »
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2016, 12:28:26 pm »
+2

There was a lot you could do with VP tokens, and I did a lot with them. Nine of the kingdom card piles use them, and then there are all those Landmarks and Events.

Holy smokes that is a ton of VP tokens!  :o
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2016, 12:31:25 pm »
0

There was a lot you could do with VP tokens, and I did a lot with them. Nine of the kingdom card piles use them, and then there are all those Landmarks and Events.

Holy smokes that is a ton of VP tokens!  :o

On these three cards we see only 5 vp symbols. We were promised 60. So there's really soooo much more
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2016, 12:31:37 pm »
+2

Wow, Groundskeeper is a good card. Yes, it's expensive, and you don't want it early, but it's a fantastic card in engines, and can help you win in pileouts involving Estates!

Temple has some interesting mind games going on, but is not a very good card to pursue by itself, only a complimentary engine piece I would think.

Chariot Race is like Tribute, swingy, but should be better since it won't kill your turn like Tribute does, not to mention it's cheaper.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2016, 12:34:37 pm »
0

Groundskeeper is sort of the most exciting alt-vp card in a while! The other 2 card seems marginal on their own, but with some enablers they can be quite interesting.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2016, 12:35:50 pm »
+5

The art has really improved so far :) That's the most important observation, right?

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2016, 12:37:47 pm »
0

On these three cards we see only 5 vp symbols. We were promised 60. So there's really soooo much more

Yeah, presumably each "Gathering" card has 3-ish symbols (one for any VP it might gain itself, one referring to where it places VP tokens and another to clarify that you gain the VP tokens when buying that pile). And then the events and landmarks. So yeah 55 more symbols, that's...wow.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2016, 12:40:10 pm »
+1

Is it just me, or is Temple slightly darker in color than normal Actions?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2016, 12:40:22 pm »
0

Temple is nearly as good as Chapel, the VP thing is just a bonus.

Is the marginally different background color on Temple intended?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2016, 12:40:49 pm »
+2

Chariot Race is my favourite preview card so far. It reminds me of Menagerie (my favourite Dominion card). It can be cantrip, but when it's not, it's SO WOW
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2016, 12:41:08 pm »
0

Can you say how many of each VP token denomination come with Empires?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2016, 12:41:48 pm »
0

I wonder if there will be Gathering cards that use Debt tokens. Nope, read it wrong.

Groundskeeper seems kind of weak. Chariot Race has a fun interaction with Spy, not so much Scrying Pool.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 02:35:28 pm by J Reggie »
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2016, 12:45:49 pm »
+2

Temple is nearly as good as Chapel, the VP thing is just a bonus.

Is the marginally different background color on Temple intended?
I think it is quite a bit weaker. It can at most trash 1 estate and 1 copper, and the other card you bought in case they collide.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2016, 12:47:27 pm »
+1

Play sea hag
Play chariot race x times
???
PROFIT

Edit: Spy gets much more better

You'll still need to trash your Coppers if you want this to be good. :)
You lose in case of ties.

Groundskeeper seems kind of weak.

Quite the opposite to me, actually. Being "Goons - revised edition" doesn't mean it's not bonkers.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2016, 12:48:01 pm »
0

Temple is nearly as good as Chapel, the VP thing is just a bonus.

Is the marginally different background color on Temple intended?

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2016, 12:50:27 pm »
0

Temple is nearly as good as Chapel, the VP thing is just a bonus.

I disagree. The power of chapel comes from trashing 4 cards in turn 3 or 4. Even when you hit chapel on turn 5 it can be devasting, that's how strong the power of trashing 4 cards on turn 3 or 4 can be. With Temple, best case you can trash 2 cards on turn 3 or 4, which is a huge difference. Not saying it's a bad card, but it's strength will certainly be different than chapel's IMO.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2016, 12:57:02 pm »
0

Temple is nearly as good as Chapel, the VP thing is just a bonus.

I disagree. The power of chapel comes from trashing 4 cards in turn 3 or 4. Even when you hit chapel on turn 5 it can be devasting, that's how strong the power of trashing 4 cards on turn 3 or 4 can be. With Temple, best case you can trash 2 cards on turn 3 or 4, which is a huge difference. Not saying it's a bad card, but it's strength will certainly be different than chapel's IMO.

Is this why 'differently named' was introduced, to prevent it from being more powerful?  Or do we have to wait for a Secret History for this type of question?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2016, 01:01:34 pm »
+11

All it takes is one teeny weeny cost reduction and you can use Inheritance on Groundskeeper.

That would be absurd.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2016, 01:01:55 pm »
0

Chariot Race is my favourite preview card so far. It reminds me of Menagerie (my favourite Dominion card). It can be cantrip, but when it's not, it's SO WOW

I was thinking that $3 was too cheap but this way, when it hits another Chariot Race, you don't win as often as you would if it cost $4 or $5.  Nice card.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2016, 01:04:17 pm »
0

In fact there are three denominations of tokens this time: 1 VP, 2 VP, and 5 VP. The 2 VP ones are the same size as 1 VP but a different color; the 5 VP ones are bigger. That was what we could manage so that's what we did.
How do the sizes and colours compare with Prosperity?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2016, 01:04:32 pm »
0

All it takes is one teeny weeny cost reduction and you can use Inheritance on Groundskeeper.

That would be absurd.

And the Groundskeepers of the Estates rose up to overthrow an Empire.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2016, 01:06:10 pm »
+10

That groundskeeper is, uh, surprisingly modern-looking...
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2016, 01:06:40 pm »
+2

The art has really improved so far :) That's the most important observation, right?
Yes, this is nice artwork!

It's bugging me a little that the Groundskeeper's t-shirt looks anachronistic, though.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2016, 01:07:54 pm »
+1

My initial thought on Groundskeeper is that this is a mega-turn/engine card. $5 is a lot to spend on a card that is a cantrip if you don't buy a victory. If you can get an engine where you play 5 of these a turn, buy a victory card get 5 vp tokens. Then next turn draw your deck again and trash that vp card and buy another for 5 more VP tokens. You don't even need a lot of money in your deck. A small deck with a lot of groundskeepers, a silver and a trasher can get lots of victory points every turn.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2016, 01:11:58 pm »
0

Ironworks / Great Hall now has a new powerful ally.

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2016, 01:13:27 pm »
0

The art has really improved so far :) That's the most important observation, right?
Yes, this is nice artwork!

It's bugging me a little that the Groundskeeper's t-shirt looks anachronistic, though.

Seriously.  I still need a Chariot to get around but I have fingertip gloves and a t-shirt with modern hems for my gardening?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2016, 01:15:07 pm »
+2

2vp seems odd and redundant to me. Why not a larger denomination? Maybe we'll see a reason for it in another card, but it seems weird to have those components that provide so little extra compared to the 1vps.

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2016, 01:16:59 pm »
+1

The art has really improved so far :) That's the most important observation, right?
Yes, this is nice artwork!

It's bugging me a little that the Groundskeeper's t-shirt looks anachronistic, though.

I was actually looking for art for the Florist fan card in the Treasure Box Context set and came across this art and while I liked it ultimately rejected suggesting it because the clothing looked too modern. Who would have thought it would actually be Dominion Art?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2016, 01:19:22 pm »
0

Chariot Race is so much fun. It doesn't screw you like Tribute can, but you still get that tasty non-attack interaction. And it doesn't even discard your opponent's cards, how nice for them! I'm sure there are some synergies where it works out well (like wishing well has) but it's just a very enjoyable card to play.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2016, 01:20:23 pm »
+2

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2016, 01:21:54 pm »
+5

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?

In order: Yes, Yes, No.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2016, 01:25:42 pm »
+1

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?

Note that this question isn't new to Chariot Race; same things mattered for any cards that have "up to" or "less than" in the wording (Border Village, Workshop, etc).
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2016, 01:28:43 pm »
0

2vp seems odd and redundant to me. Why not a larger denomination? Maybe we'll see a reason for it in another card, but it seems weird to have those components that provide so little extra compared to the 1vps.

10 or 20 would have been much more useful.

Groundskeeper gives Watchtower another boost.  Buy an Estate, gain VP from Groundskeeper, LOL no thanks I didn't want the Estate.

I find the similarity between Chariot Race and the Joust mechanic in Hearthstone... intriguing.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 01:29:45 pm by Kirian »
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2016, 01:31:49 pm »
+2

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?

Note that this question isn't new to Chariot Race; same things mattered for any cards that have "up to" or "less than" in the wording (Border Village, Workshop, etc).

And remember ¬(costs more than) ⇏ (costs less than or equal to)
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2016, 01:33:24 pm »
0

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?

In order: Yes, Yes, No.

So basically match the currencies on the opponent's card, then have an additional one or more of anything in the cost, same or different currency?  Thanks.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2016, 01:34:31 pm »
+1

Is it just me, or is Temple slightly darker in color than normal Actions?
It won't be. That's an issue with the software that shrinks the giant files down to something manageable to email me to proofread. We spotted it and struggled to find the problem and well, something about that conversion process.

Similarly this means my images have some numbers on coins that are off from where they actually are, and there's like a glitch next to the red hexagon that isn't there.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 02:52:43 pm by Donald X. »
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2016, 01:35:17 pm »
+3

Can you say how many of each VP token denomination come with Empires?
Not yet.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2016, 01:39:17 pm »
0

I foresee Groundskeeper completely changing the way you green. An uncontested Groundskeeper stack will beat a Province stack if given time to green, forcing your opponent to either rush the endgame or mirror you. I think the key to this card is knowing which pile to go for. You could simply use Groundskeepers for extra points on your Province buys, but they do offer the opportunity of going for one of the lesser VP piles. It might not always be viable to empty both Estates and Duchies - you junk yourself up so much that an opponent has time to build more and go for Provinces anyway. I suspect you'll need to be able to 3pile on Groundskeeper/Duchy/X where X is an engine piece/curse/whatever, then you leave the Estates as consolation for when you don't hit 5.

Temple has a few things going on. As a trasher it's quite poor. Early on it can get Copper+Estate, but mostly it will just trash individual Coppers (though it gets better with Shelters). The easiest comparision is Bishop, but it doesnt have Bishop's payload potential or symmetry drawback. At least getting VP for something you're gonna do anyway is cool. Donald X briefly explains the gathering mechanic here, though he doesn't specify whether the trigger to gain the gathered piles is the same on each Gatherer card. I'm guessing it won't be.

Chariot Race looks like a card you pick up early and often and then you just let it accumulate VP. Its cantrip nature makes this easy to do most likely. It's great with ways to manipulate the top of the opponent's deck e.g. Spy. It is, however, very hard to manipulate your own deck to block opposing Races. Trashing down super-thin is the most relevant way, but a stack of 6 Alchemists would do the trick (only two cards "cost more" than an Alch), and Stash can on the reshuffle.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2016, 01:40:01 pm »
0

Is it just me, or is Temple slightly darker in color than normal Actions?
It won't be. That's an issue with the software that shrinks the giant files down to something manageable to email me to proofread. We spotted it and struggled to find the problem and well, something about that conversion process.

Similarly this means my images have some numbers on text that are off from where they actually are, and there's like a glitch next to the red hexagon that isn't there.

Is that why the hexagons on Capital are redder than the really rather orange hexagons on City Quarter and Royal Blacksmith?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2016, 01:41:27 pm »
+1

I'm starting to get super overwhelmed with the number of new things in Empires, in a way I didn't with Guilds or Adventures. I dunno, maybe that'll ultimately be a good thing.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2016, 01:45:21 pm »
0

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?
Actually, what happens if your neighbour's deck (and discard pile) is empty?
What if yours is?

In normal mathematical terms, real numbers are incomparable with not-a-numbers, so intuition fails me here.

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2016, 01:46:51 pm »
0

Will there be suggested kingdoms with this set?  I had a fun time a couple years ago playing through 16 or 18 suggested setups on the weekend of Dark Ages' release.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2016, 01:46:56 pm »
+1

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?

In order: Yes, Yes, No.

So basically match the currencies on the opponent's card, then have an additional one or more of anything in the cost, same or different currency?  Thanks.

Not sure if your sentence includes this or not, but you cannot have less of any currency types at all, even if you have more of all the others and more types. In other words, Golem does not cost more than Laboratory.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2016, 01:49:40 pm »
0

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?
Actually, what happens if your neighbour's deck (and discard pile) is empty?
What if yours is?

In normal mathematical terms, real numbers are incomparable with not-a-numbers, so intuition fails me here.

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2016, 01:57:37 pm »
+1

9 VP token cards!  That quadruples the number we currently have.

Groundskeeper -- Compared to Bishop, this suggests a very different kind of golden deck, one that depends on Estates rather than Provinces.  This is better because a non-golden opponent will take a long time to buy all the provinces.  But it's also worse because you need a way to end the game after the Estates are gone.

Temple -- Do you want this card early to trash cards, or late to get all the VP accumulated on the Temple supply?  Why not both?

Chariot Race -- Here it is, the cantrip VP card that doesn't do anything to bring the game closer to an ending.  Isn't that against the fan card creation guide?  On the other hand, for Chariot Race to actually be any good, you need to put expensive cards in your deck.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2016, 01:58:41 pm »
+2

Will there be suggested kingdoms with this set?  I had a fun time a couple years ago playing through 16 or 18 suggested setups on the weekend of Dark Ages' release.

Yes, there will be suggested kingdoms.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2016, 02:03:07 pm »
0

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.
That suggests "no card" is cheaper than zero-cost cards, so you could win a Chariot Race with a Curse?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2016, 02:09:03 pm »
+2

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.
That suggests "no card" is cheaper than zero-cost cards, so you could win a Chariot Race with a Curse?

Well, it is true that no card is cheaper than a $0 card.   ;)
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2016, 02:09:52 pm »
0

2vp seems odd and redundant to me. Why not a larger denomination? Maybe we'll see a reason for it in another card, but it seems weird to have those components that provide so little extra compared to the 1vps.

10 or 20 would have been much more useful.

Groundskeeper gives Watchtower another boost.  Buy an Estate, gain VP from Groundskeeper, LOL no thanks I didn't want the Estate.

I find the similarity between Chariot Race and the Joust mechanic in Hearthstone... intriguing.

Yeah I also thought of Hearthstone's Joust mechanic when reading Chariot Race. The big difference is that in Dominion you can actually manipulate the top of a player's deck. Spy was already mentioned as an enabler for this. Plus there's a sort of Mystic thing going with the top card of the opponent's deck always being the same.

I think Groundskeeper is the most exciting card here. A Pure alt-VP card that requires a strong sense of timing to get the best use of it. Encourages mega turns, consistent engines, and golden decks. Heck, just trashing VP and regaining it with Rogue/Graverobbers while Groundskeeper is in play can be the next Bishop/Fortress. Pricing it at $5 seems like the right call.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2016, 02:10:00 pm »
+2

There was a lot you could do with VP tokens, and I did a lot with them. Nine of the kingdom card piles use them

I hope one of these 9 is a split pile with debt cost.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2016, 02:12:55 pm »
+2

Groundskeeper will probably become a trap for inexperienced players, similar to Hoard.  "I play my Groundskeeper, now I can buy a Duchy and get 4 VP!"
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2016, 02:13:12 pm »
0

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.
That suggests "no card" is cheaper than zero-cost cards, so you could win a Chariot Race with a Curse?

Well, it is true that no card is cheaper than a $0 card.   ;)
Not that we've seen anyway. We need an Alt-Curse pile with negative cost.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2016, 02:14:03 pm »
+9

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?
Actually, what happens if your neighbour's deck (and discard pile) is empty?
What if yours is?

In normal mathematical terms, real numbers are incomparable with not-a-numbers, so intuition fails me here.

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.

Nope! If either you can't reveal a card or your opponent can't reveal a card, you can't make the comparison, so you don't get +$1 or +1 VP.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2016, 02:15:47 pm »
+5

Is this why 'differently named' was introduced, to prevent it from being more powerful?  Or do we have to wait for a Secret History for this type of question?
It's just part of the card concept.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2016, 02:17:29 pm »
0

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?
Actually, what happens if your neighbour's deck (and discard pile) is empty?
What if yours is?

In normal mathematical terms, real numbers are incomparable with not-a-numbers, so intuition fails me here.

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.

Nope! If either you can't reveal a card or your opponent can't reveal a card, you can't make the comparison, so you don't get +$1 or +1 VP.

Hmm, so a standard Bishop Golden deck nullifies your opponent's Chariot Race.  Interesting.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2016, 02:18:35 pm »
0

That suggests "no card" is cheaper than zero-cost cards, so you could win a Chariot Race with a Curse?
Well, it is true that no card is cheaper than a $0 card.   ;)
Ah yes, but it's equally true that no card is more expensive than a $99 card.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2016, 02:19:01 pm »
+9

The art has really improved so far :) That's the most important observation, right?
Yes, this is nice artwork!

It's bugging me a little that the Groundskeeper's t-shirt looks anachronistic, though.

Seriously.  I still need a Chariot to get around but I have fingertip gloves and a t-shirt with modern hems for my gardening?

It's obviously a Temporum crossover! The Groundskeeper has a time machine.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2016, 02:22:20 pm »
+1

What I like the most about Chariot Race is it that it seems like a cantrip VP card should be broken but somehow it isn't.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2016, 02:31:21 pm »
+1

Groundskeeper seems super strong actually.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2016, 02:38:32 pm »
+3

With VP tokens, it's a concern whether the card can lead to degenerate situations where no decks advance and players just sit there accumulating VP tokens for the rest of their lives. 

Goons almost guaranteed it (edit: and by "it", I mean "the game ending eventually") by requiring you to buy cards, eventually leading to a 3-pile even if it took a long time (exceptions: Trader, Ambassador shenanigans). 

Bishop encouraged it by offering more VP for trashing, which then requires you to buy stuff and, again, head towards a 3-pile ending (exceptions: Fortress, Graverobber, Rogue). 

Monument encouraged it by giving you $2 that you want to spend, which once more pushes towards a 3-pile ending if nothing else.  Those unending scenarios could still come up (Bishop-Fortress is probably the easiest) but they are rare. 

Do these cards do anything to move towards a game end?

Groundskeeper requires you to gain cards, so it's like Goons.

Temple encourages players to buy more Temples (to gain the VP that's placed there) so at least that pile will empty eventually, but otherwise... eh.  It trashes though, which should help players to build a better deck that can end the game.

Chariot Race is a Peddler whenever it grants VP, so it's kind of like Monument in giving you money you want to spend.  It's also unreliable, so it's tougher to get into a stable back-and-forth where all the players have to keep gaining more VP and doing nothing else or else be forced into a loss.

Sounds good, I guess?

In raw power, I think Groundskeeper has a lower ceiling than Goons.  It only works for Victory cards, it doesn't have +Buy, it doesn't even give coins to help you buy stuff.  But it's cantrip so you can chain them more easily, and it works with gainers.  Where Goons games start slow and get bigger until a game-ending VP explosion (or a sudden 3-pile), I think Groundskeeper will provide a steady drip.  I can see it encouraging alt greening as well, because you'll be much more inclined to buy Estates or Duchies with a few Groundskeepers in play.  Groundskeeper is at a price point with lots of competition and doesn't help you build your deck, so it probably won't be bought early... unless rushing Estates/Duchies is especially powerful.  Hm.

I think Groundskeeper will love Distant Lands.

Temple is strange.  The trashing is mediocre, and the VP seems especially slow.  But the Gathering mechanism here seems like something that will push players into group think.  One player buys Temple while the others ignore it.  That player slowly gains more VP tokens, which may make others wary.  But VP tokens may also accumulate on the Temple pile, until another player gives in and buys it.  Now tokens build up on the Temple pile even more quickly, making it even more attractive to buy more... and so goes the snowball.  It may also create an all-in mentality, if the first Temple player is also the one who buys the second Temple and its gathered tokens.  Actually, this may happen more than the multiplayer snowball, because I sure don't want you to get all those VP tokens without suffering the same opportunity cost of having a terminal Temple in your deck for a few shuffles.

If the Temple pile is empty, you still continue adding VP tokens to it, right?  But there's no way to get those tokens without Ambassador shenanigans (or something unrevealed)?

Chariot Race seems swingy, depending on what you uncover from the other player's deck.  Copper, the rest of your Chariot Races will be good times.  Province, your day at the track is ruined.  It'll be better with some deck inspection attacks, and if you trash down vs. an opponent who still has all their starting Copper.  But even though it's great when it hits, it's also kind of bad when it doesn't.  I think that unreliability will make this a weak and ignorable card on most boards, but it will still be bought often and overrated because people love to gamble and the highs are pretty high here.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 07:17:37 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2016, 02:38:38 pm »
0

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?
Actually, what happens if your neighbour's deck (and discard pile) is empty?
What if yours is?

In normal mathematical terms, real numbers are incomparable with not-a-numbers, so intuition fails me here.

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.

Nope! If either you can't reveal a card or your opponent can't reveal a card, you can't make the comparison, so you don't get +$1 or +1 VP.

What!?  The rulings for Chariot Race and Gladiator seem to be inconsistent here.  :P
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2016, 02:43:56 pm »
+5

What!?  The rulings for Chariot Race and Gladiator seem to be inconsistent here.  :P

The key is that Chariot Race is a positive "If yours is worth more", and Gladiator is a negative "If they do not".  A nonexistent card cannot be worth more than anything, but a nonexistent card is definitely not a reveal of a matching card (even if it is itself nonexistent).
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2016, 02:45:33 pm »
0

Hm... if you get a big King's Court-y engine going (Royal Carriages, too), you'll probably just want to clear the Temple pile the same turn you load a bunch of tokens onto it.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2016, 02:48:02 pm »
+1

On Chariot Race, what does "costs more" mean in relation to the alternate currencies of Potion and Debt?  Fortune > Royal Blacksmith?  Familiar > Silver?  Platinum > City Quarter?
Actually, what happens if your neighbour's deck (and discard pile) is empty?
What if yours is?

In normal mathematical terms, real numbers are incomparable with not-a-numbers, so intuition fails me here.

I'm guessing the same as what happens when you play Gladiator and your hand is empty.  If your neighbor's deck is empty, you get the + and +1.  However, if yours is empty, and your neighbor's isn't, you get nothing.

Nope! If either you can't reveal a card or your opponent can't reveal a card, you can't make the comparison, so you don't get +$1 or +1 VP.

What!?  The rulings for Chariot Race and Gladiator seem to be inconsistent here.  :P

Not inconsistent, it's just following the wording on the card.

Gladiator: You get the +$1 and Gladiator trashing if the opponent does not reveal a copy of a card you revealed.  If you didn't reveal a card, the opponent can't reveal a copy of it since there is no "it" to speak of!

Chariot Race: You only get the bonus if you reveal a card that costs more than a card your opponent revealed.  You can only make that comparison if both players reveal a card.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2016, 02:50:57 pm »
+1

Goons almost guaranteed it by requiring you to buy cards, eventually leading to a 3-pile even if it took a long time (exceptions: Trader, Ambassador shenanigans).
How does Trader... wait... *thinks*

Gosh, the idea of reacting to a gain with Trader when the Silvers were all gone had never occurred to me before!
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2016, 02:51:14 pm »
0

Wohoo - VP tokens. Everybody loves VP tokens!

Absolutely now idea how good they're going be. How many Groundskeepers do you buy for your engine before greening? No clue. I guess we'll see how they play out. I'm especially excited to hear, that there are even more VP token cards to come.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #67 on: May 11, 2016, 03:20:54 pm »
+7

Now we need to have a ''magic" card type so we can have a "magic - gathering" card...   :P
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2016, 03:24:34 pm »
+1

Is that why the hexagons on Capital are redder than the really rather orange hexagons on City Quarter and Royal Blacksmith?
Probably?

Any mistake you find on the images might be a real mistake, but some things are entirely this shrinking process.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2016, 03:27:39 pm »
+6

That's funny...I posted this in February as a suggestion for art for a card called Florist:

She has some pieces that might work well for some of these:

Florist


...

These might actually have been used for other games, I'm sort of unclear on exactly what these are from.  I think they both look very Dominion-y though.

The image is gone now, but it was actually the art for Groundskeeper!
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #70 on: May 11, 2016, 03:29:58 pm »
0

I was under the impression that the art was made on demand; in some cases artists already have a piece that fits?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #71 on: May 11, 2016, 03:31:09 pm »
+2

I find the similarity between Chariot Race and the Joust mechanic in Hearthstone... intriguing.
I am unfamiliar with Hearthstone. Magic did cost-comparing with clash in Lorwyn, and then there's, you know, War.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #72 on: May 11, 2016, 03:31:21 pm »
+4

That's funny...I posted this in February as a suggestion for art for a card called Florist:

She has some pieces that might work well for some of these:

Florist


...

These might actually have been used for other games, I'm sort of unclear on exactly what these are from.  I think they both look very Dominion-y though.

The image is gone now, but it was actually the art for Groundskeeper!

Look what else I found on her website:



Yes, he's wearing glasses. Are glasses a Roman thing?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2016, 03:34:48 pm »
+1

Predictions:

Groundskeeper won't be as insane as it looks. In money based-strategies you can't get enough out in play per turn. In engine strategies it will be tricky to justify buying Groundskeeper until right before the ending turns. It will definitely play a role, but I don't it as board warping unless it's combined with support that makes gaining lots of Groundskeeper easy. You miss out on 3 VP from a Duchy in exchange for a cantrip that encourages you to buy more VP than usual, so you'll clog faster, and you need Groundskeeper's VP tokens to overcome the VP you'll lose from not buying the most efficient VP/cost cards like Province/Colony.

Temple will be about as strong as Doctor. It may be explosively good in games with Throne Room, King's Court, or Crown, since you can play lots of Temples then buy a Temple instead of buying VP. Very unsure here.

Chariot Race feels very strong. Engines will buy this over Silver for days. Money decks that don't use too much terminal draw will do the same.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2016, 03:58:56 pm »
0

Groundskeeper is probably most dominant in megaturns. Just need an engine and several +buys.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #75 on: May 11, 2016, 04:02:22 pm »
+3

If the Temple pile is empty, you still continue adding VP tokens to it, right?  But there's no way to get those tokens without Ambassador shenanigans (or something unrevealed)?
Yes.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #76 on: May 11, 2016, 04:05:03 pm »
+4

I was under the impression that the art was made on demand; in some cases artists already have a piece that fits?
I'm under the impression that it's all on-demand, but if an artist used an old piece I wouldn't necessarily know.

Some artists do not care much about anachronisms, and I don't always manage to get them fixed, but in the past players have never cared at all. They care way more about how much they like the art style.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #77 on: May 11, 2016, 04:05:51 pm »
+3

I was under the impression that the art was made on demand; in some cases artists already have a piece that fits?
I'm under the impression that it's all on-demand, but if an artist used an old piece I wouldn't necessarily know.

Some artists do not care much about anachronisms, and I don't always manage to get them fixed, but in the past players have never cared at all. They care way more about how much they like the art style.

I like this style.  If it was an Empire of t-shirts, so be it.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #78 on: May 11, 2016, 04:29:53 pm »
0

Groundskeeper is to Goons what Highway is to Bridge: easier to add to your deck, but harder to exploit. Goons giving an extra buy and working on 0$ cards is huge.

Up until now, Bustling Village is my favourite revealed card.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #79 on: May 11, 2016, 04:31:27 pm »
0

Man, Scrying Pool/Chariot Race seems crazy strong. You can put a Copper on top of your opponent's deck, draw all your Chariot Races, and get lots of VP. Just take care not to draw your deck.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #80 on: May 11, 2016, 04:43:51 pm »
0

Finally! More cards that use VP tokens! Not just slightly more, but WAY more: at least 9, not counting Events and Landmarks that may involve them. Loving it. <3

Groundskeeper is interesting: if it's weak, it's horrible, but if it's strong, it's insane. Kind of a do-or-die card. Looks especially ridiculous in megaturn engines; get 5 of them in play, buy all the leftover Provinces (like 4) and an Estate or something, and get 25 VP tokens on top of everything.

Temple is very cool as well. It's another way to just straight-up gain those VP tokens, but you have to trash at least one card. It looks good as an early-game trasher too, on par with Steward and Amulet, but sometimes you need to be careful with it because your opponent might grab a pile of VP tokens from the supply. Of course, you can trash Temple to Temple, which kinda solves the collision issues...

Chariot Race kind of reminds me of Baron from Love Letter (not Baron from Dominion) with a touch of Tournament. Otherwise, it's a pretty nice cantrip, one of the better cheap cantrips. Almost makes Great Hall obsolete.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #81 on: May 11, 2016, 05:08:51 pm »
0

Yes, he's wearing glasses. Are glasses a Roman thing?
No, but Wikipedia says 1286. So it's fine for the mediaeval theme. Or would be if those weren't modern frames...
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #82 on: May 11, 2016, 05:12:14 pm »
0

Chariot Race kind of reminds me of Baron from Love Letter
Baron. That's... um... Duck of Doom, right? :-p

(I prefer Munchkin Loot Letter - far less soppy and heteronormative.)
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #83 on: May 11, 2016, 05:17:27 pm »
0

Yes, he's wearing glasses. Are glasses a Roman thing?
No, but Wikipedia says 1286. So it's fine for the mediaeval theme. Or would be if those weren't modern frames...

Another Temporum crossover! Alayna is killing it! :))
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #84 on: May 11, 2016, 05:29:37 pm »
+1

Hmm. I remember thinking the clothing and make-up on the Duchess looked a little more modern-Renaissance-fair than authentic. Seems that's also by her!
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #85 on: May 11, 2016, 05:31:54 pm »
+1

If the Temple pile is empty, you still continue adding VP tokens to it, right?  But there's no way to get those tokens without Ambassador shenanigans (or something unrevealed)?

How about Graverobber and Rogue? Ambassador Temple would be in favor of your left-hand-side opponent.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #86 on: May 11, 2016, 05:36:08 pm »
0

If the Temple pile is empty, you still continue adding VP tokens to it, right?  But there's no way to get those tokens without Ambassador shenanigans (or something unrevealed)?

How about Graverobber and Rogue? Ambassador Temple would be in favor of your left-hand-side opponent.

You are right, gaining from the trash still works for this.  And yeah, Amb-Temple isn't necessarily a good idea, but I was just thinking about ways to access those VP. :P
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #87 on: May 11, 2016, 05:44:32 pm »
0

I feel like I'm going to really like Temple. It's got everything I remember liking about Bishop from my early days of Dominion (trashing while building up VP) without the downside of letting other people trash. Of course it does have the thing of building up the jackpot, but that's just another element to add to the game.

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #88 on: May 11, 2016, 05:47:21 pm »
0

I am so happy Temple made it in the final set. Originally, it was looking like it might get cut for being too automatic, but then Donald added the Gathering mechanic, which helped balance things out. It's a really fun trasher to play with, both for mind games and general trashing needs.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #89 on: May 11, 2016, 05:49:56 pm »
+1

I have a feeling the bidding is going to be related to a gathering card.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #90 on: May 11, 2016, 05:57:31 pm »
0

I have a feeling the bidding is going to be related to a gathering card.

Oh, that's a good idea.

Landmark-Gathering, at the start of each turn you either add a VP tokn to the Landmark or you take all the VP tokens plus twice as many debt tokens.  It's a game of chicken since the debt doesn't hurt if you take it on the last turn.

There's no way this idea is balanced as it is, but I'm posting it in case the real thing is similar. :P
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #91 on: May 11, 2016, 06:01:44 pm »
+2

With Temple, you're going to wish you drew all three of the Shelters with it.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #92 on: May 11, 2016, 06:04:48 pm »
+2

With Temple, you're going to wish you drew all three of the Shelters with it.

I would rather draw it with only two the first time, so I can trash three cards now and two later, similar to how you return Coppers with Ambassador when you have one Estate in hand.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #93 on: May 11, 2016, 06:29:20 pm »
0

If the Temple pile is empty, you still continue adding VP tokens to it, right?  But there's no way to get those tokens without Ambassador shenanigans (or something unrevealed)?

How about Graverobber and Rogue? Ambassador Temple would be in favor of your left-hand-side opponent.

You are right, gaining from the trash still works for this.  And yeah, Amb-Temple isn't necessarily a good idea, but I was just thinking about ways to access those VP. :P

If you get Temple from the Black Market, is there still a Temple pile to put tokens onto (so you can later grab them by trashing Temple and gaining it with a Graverobber)? I remember the "Travellers" didn't have a pile to return to if they came out of the Black Market, so I'm guessing Black Market Gatherings don't work very well either.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #94 on: May 11, 2016, 06:33:16 pm »
0

If you get Temple from the Black Market, is there still a Temple pile to put tokens onto (so you can later grab them by trashing Temple and gaining it with a Graverobber)? I remember the "Travellers" didn't have a pile to return to if they came out of the Black Market, so I'm guessing Black Market Gatherings don't work very well either.

No. But you do get trashing and +1 VP still.

The trashing isn't optional, so you won't be able to play Temple forever either.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #95 on: May 11, 2016, 06:44:40 pm »
0

If you get Temple from the Black Market, is there still a Temple pile to put tokens onto (so you can later grab them by trashing Temple and gaining it with a Graverobber)? I remember the "Travellers" didn't have a pile to return to if they came out of the Black Market, so I'm guessing Black Market Gatherings don't work very well either.

No. But you do get trashing and +1 VP still.

The trashing isn't optional, so you won't be able to play Temple forever either.

The +1 VP isn't conditional on the trashing, so you can.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #96 on: May 11, 2016, 06:48:41 pm »
0

I find it somewhat strange that Gathering cards have their own type (I don't feel like they really need to), while split piles don't have their own type and it seems as though they would benefit much more from this (because you could have a single setup rule instead of having it on each randomizer). Is there any particular reasoning behind this?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #97 on: May 11, 2016, 06:52:35 pm »
+1

Donald said there is another card referencing Gatherings
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #98 on: May 11, 2016, 06:53:07 pm »
+1

I find it somewhat strange that Gathering cards have their own type (I don't feel like they really need to), while split piles don't have their own type and it seems as though they would benefit much more from this (because you could have a single setup rule instead of having it on each randomizer). Is there any particular reasoning behind this?

Temple has this weird word "Gathering" on the bottom, I should say something there. Well uh. It groups together a few cards that put VP on their piles, and lets another card refer to them (in a "let's not mess this up" way). So that's that.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #99 on: May 11, 2016, 06:56:40 pm »
+1

Reading preview text is far more skippable than people think.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #100 on: May 11, 2016, 07:25:38 pm »
+4

Man, Scrying Pool/Chariot Race seems crazy strong. You can put a Copper on top of your opponent's deck, draw all your Chariot Races, and get lots of VP. Just take care not to draw your deck.
Using divination to cheat at the races. I have a feeling the racing Stewards would take a dim view of that ...

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #101 on: May 11, 2016, 07:26:38 pm »
+7

Man, Scrying Pool/Chariot Race seems crazy strong. You can put a Copper on top of your opponent's deck, draw all your Chariot Races, and get lots of VP. Just take care not to draw your deck.
Using divination to cheat at the races. I have a feeling the racing Stewards would take a dim view of that ...

They would either draw to conclusions, exploit the trick for money, or trash the place in a rage.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #102 on: May 11, 2016, 07:41:15 pm »
+3

The funny thing about Chariot Race is that it's relatively weaker in Empires-heavy games because of how Debt costs are compared to normal costs.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #103 on: May 11, 2016, 07:42:58 pm »
0

I just realized the Graverobber interaction with Temple - you can trash Temple (with another Temple, or Graverobber) then use Graverobber to gain it back from the trash, and you still get the tokens from the pile!
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #104 on: May 11, 2016, 07:48:27 pm »
0

The art has really improved so far :) That's the most important observation, right?
Yes, this is nice artwork!

It's bugging me a little that the Groundskeeper's t-shirt looks anachronistic, though.

Seriously.  I still need a Chariot to get around but I have fingertip gloves and a t-shirt with modern hems for my gardening?

It's obviously a Temporum crossover! The Groundskeeper has a time machine.
It simply expands the Empires sub theme of time travel that was introduced with Villa. I'm expecting to see lots of other anachronisms snuck into the card art in witty ways.  ;D

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #105 on: May 11, 2016, 07:50:15 pm »
+12

I'm also enjoying that Temple continues the theme of religious institutions trashing things (Chapel, Bishop, Altar...).
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #106 on: May 11, 2016, 07:51:14 pm »
+4

The funny thing about Chariot Race is that it's relatively weaker in Empires-heavy games because of how Debt costs are compared to normal costs.

By mid-game, it also anti-synergizes with itself, due to its low cost.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #107 on: May 11, 2016, 07:59:40 pm »
+1

The funny thing about Chariot Race is that it's relatively weaker in Empires-heavy games because of how Debt costs are compared to normal costs.

Hmm, I suspect that a lot of people will end up house-ruling (purposefully or otherwise) that you treat Debt costs as if they're coin costs for purposes such as this.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #108 on: May 11, 2016, 08:07:50 pm »
+1

My concern about the gathering VP mechanic:

Careful set up + one bad draw at the wrong time = massive advantage to the opposition x incredible frustration.

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #109 on: May 11, 2016, 08:54:45 pm »
0

Reading preview text is far more skippable than people think.

There's, like, so many words, man.  We can't be expected to read all of them.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #110 on: May 11, 2016, 09:44:56 pm »
0

If Chariot Race cost less than it does, it would be a worse card, since loading up on them would be more likely to reveal other Chariot Races. That's pretty rare.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #111 on: May 11, 2016, 10:24:09 pm »
+3

Rare but not unprecedented. Rats and Border Village would be worse if cheaper.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2016, 10:33:12 pm »
+3

As would Band of Misfits. Arguably also Peddler.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2016, 10:36:26 pm »
0

Temple is one of those cards that I was referring to with the "pettiness" thing. I'm just seeing a ton of games where either no one gets Temple because they don't want to risk the other players getting the VP gathering tokens, or everyone buys it out as fast as possible because of the same reason. It's not a mechanic I can see myself enjoying... even if it's just because I'm terrible at timing this kinda thing.

Chariot Race got odd when I played with it, but I had a power-mad golden deck so I didn't give a crap. I don't remember if I did anything with Groundskeeper but it looks fun.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2016, 10:44:20 pm »
+3

I don't think Temple is petty. Its still a trasher. You just have to figure out the best time to purchase it for the tokens or risk your opponent buying it. I like the card. I remember playing this card and enjoying it a lot.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #115 on: May 12, 2016, 12:22:56 am »
0

I don't think Temple is petty. Its still a trasher. You just have to figure out the best time to purchase it for the tokens or risk your opponent buying it. I like the card. I remember playing this card and enjoying it a lot.

I didn't mean that the card itself was petty, just that it's probably going to encourage pettiness. Like "I'm going to buy Temple here JUST so you keep not getting the tokens."
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #116 on: May 12, 2016, 12:30:37 am »
+6

I don't think Temple is petty. Its still a trasher. You just have to figure out the best time to purchase it for the tokens or risk your opponent buying it. I like the card. I remember playing this card and enjoying it a lot.

I didn't mean that the card itself was petty, just that it's probably going to encourage pettiness. Like "I'm going to buy Temple here JUST so you keep not getting the tokens."

I mean, if denying temple points is the right move, it's not pettiness, it's good play. If someone is doing it JUST because, then you thank them for the easy win and move on.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #117 on: May 12, 2016, 03:45:34 am »
+1

I'm expecting to see lots of other anachronisms snuck into the card art in witty ways.  ;D

How did you find out about the upcoming Death Star preview?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #118 on: May 12, 2016, 06:18:25 am »
+4

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #119 on: May 12, 2016, 07:12:10 am »
0

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #120 on: May 12, 2016, 08:10:11 am »
0

I'm expecting to see lots of other anachronisms snuck into the card art in witty ways.  ;D

How did you find out about the upcoming Death Star preview?
I felt a disturbance in the force, obviously.






- I'm expecting Death Star to be the thing that cost 14 that was mentioned in the teasers.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 08:12:24 am by cactus »
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #121 on: May 12, 2016, 09:07:55 am »
0

How did you find out about the upcoming Death Star preview?
Oh, come on - what else was a $14 Event going to be?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #122 on: May 12, 2016, 09:45:16 am »
+3

I don't think Temple is petty. Its still a trasher. You just have to figure out the best time to purchase it for the tokens or risk your opponent buying it. I like the card. I remember playing this card and enjoying it a lot.

I didn't mean that the card itself was petty, just that it's probably going to encourage pettiness. Like "I'm going to buy Temple here JUST so you keep not getting the tokens."

I don't agree that that is petty.  If it's a move to help you win the game, then it's tactical.  If not, then it's a mistake. 
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #123 on: May 12, 2016, 09:45:41 am »
0

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #124 on: May 12, 2016, 09:55:21 am »
+1

The most efficient use of tokens would be to use powers of 2 and have only one token of each denomination per player.  1-2-5 is going to be better overall because people are more familiar with those denominations, but it is less efficient.

With 1-2-5, I can use one 1, two 2s, and one 5 to represent all possible values from 1-10. The same 4 tokens with the values of 1-2-4-8 can represent ever number from 1-15.  (With just 1s and 5s, you need 5 tokens [four 1s, and one 5] just to get the values from 1-9.)

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #125 on: May 12, 2016, 10:12:06 am »
0

Or you guys can just use two D10s (d100 basically) to represent any number from 0-100. This also solves the problem in Prosperity where the 1s and 5s look damn near identical.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #126 on: May 12, 2016, 10:13:35 am »
+3

There's also this awesome thing called paper.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #127 on: May 12, 2016, 10:23:37 am »
0

I guess the point is that the trouble with the existing VP tokens has been the lack of 10's, since some Goons games can get crazy, especially with multiple players.

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #128 on: May 12, 2016, 10:26:42 am »
0

I always use a calculator or a phone.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #129 on: May 12, 2016, 10:27:40 am »
0

There's also this awesome thing called paper.

Paper was a great substitute for VP tokens up until the Gathering cards happened. Now it's a really mediocre substitute.

Personally I replaced my official Dominion VP tokens with these metal coins made for Viticulture. They were expensive, but so much easier both to pick up and to identify. Even when the official Empires tokens come out, I doubt I'll go back. They're just such a pain to use.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #130 on: May 12, 2016, 10:29:49 am »
+3

There's also this awesome thing called paper.

You're so wasteful. :(

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #131 on: May 12, 2016, 10:30:25 am »
+3

There's also this awesome thing called paper.

You're so wasteful. :(



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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #132 on: May 12, 2016, 10:34:20 am »
+4

There's also this awesome thing called paper.

You're so wasteful. :(

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #133 on: May 12, 2016, 10:38:46 am »
+2

2vp seems odd and redundant to me.

Most currencies use the 1-2-5 series.

Thanks for that interesting link :)

Agreed.

However, here in the US we have a $2 bill that is almost never used.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #134 on: May 12, 2016, 10:39:45 am »
0

However, here in the US we have a $2 bill that is almost never used.

Why do you have bills that small?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #135 on: May 12, 2016, 10:41:55 am »
0

However, here in the US we have a $2 bill that is almost never used.

Why do you have bills that small?

You mean like the $1 bill? Inertia. We technically have $1 coins, but nobody ever uses them. Also we still have pennies (1 coins) even though it costs more than 1 to produce one.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #136 on: May 12, 2016, 10:44:32 am »
+1

I guess the point is that the trouble with the existing VP tokens has been the lack of 10's, since some Goons games can get crazy, especially with multiple players.

If our games get to that point, we generally use coin tokens as 10's.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #137 on: May 12, 2016, 10:46:01 am »
0

I guess the point is that the trouble with the existing VP tokens has been the lack of 10's, since some Goons games can get crazy, especially with multiple players.

Some people might say that the problem is with Goons itself!  :P
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #138 on: May 12, 2016, 10:46:01 am »
0

I guess the point is that the trouble with the existing VP tokens has been the lack of 10's, since some Goons games can get crazy, especially with multiple players.

If our games get to that point, we generally use coin tokens as 10's.
I've used embargoes as 20 VP tokens! Needless to say that was a very high scoring game.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #139 on: May 12, 2016, 10:54:06 am »
0

I guess the point is that the trouble with the existing VP tokens has been the lack of 10's, since some Goons games can get crazy, especially with multiple players.

If our games get to that point, we generally use coin tokens as 10's.
I've used embargoes as 20 VP tokens! Needless to say that was a very high scoring game.

But it will get confusing if you start replacing the gathered tokens on the Temple pile by an Embargo token.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #140 on: May 12, 2016, 11:00:46 am »
+1

I guess the point is that the trouble with the existing VP tokens has been the lack of 10's, since some Goons games can get crazy, especially with multiple players.

If our games get to that point, we generally use coin tokens as 10's.
I've used embargoes as 20 VP tokens! Needless to say that was a very high scoring game.

But it will get confusing if you start replacing the gathered tokens on the Temple pile by an Embargo token.

Man, I am trying to imagine the Temple pile accumulating 20 VP. I just don't think it's ever happening, even after the Temples run out.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #141 on: May 12, 2016, 11:04:00 am »
+1

I guess the point is that the trouble with the existing VP tokens has been the lack of 10's, since some Goons games can get crazy, especially with multiple players.

Just throw a few quarters in the box to be 25VP tokens.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #142 on: May 12, 2016, 11:32:09 am »
+1

I guess the point is that the trouble with the existing VP tokens has been the lack of 10's, since some Goons games can get crazy, especially with multiple players.

If our games get to that point, we generally use coin tokens as 10's.
I've used embargoes as 20 VP tokens! Needless to say that was a very high scoring game.
Oh yeah, that's right, I've done that too. I think one instance was on one of my first games ever with Prosperity, when I didn't realize the difference in the "while this is in play" wording of Goons, and tripled all of my VP tokens through KC. Whoops... That got just a bit absurd.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #143 on: May 12, 2016, 11:37:05 am »
+5

However, here in the US we have a $2 bill that is almost never used.

Why do you have bills that small?

US bills are actually all the same size.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #144 on: May 12, 2016, 12:04:59 pm »
+1

The most efficient use of tokens would be to use powers of 2 and have only one token of each denomination per player.
It depends what you want to be efficient. Tokens in every possible denomination would guarantee you only ever needed one of them in front of you; a whole bunch of 1VP tokens would guarantee each "gain 1VP" transaction was as simple as possible.

There is a balance to be struck.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #145 on: May 12, 2016, 01:10:49 pm »
0

The most efficient use of tokens would be to use powers of 2 and have only one token of each denomination per player.
It depends what you want to be efficient. Tokens in every possible denomination would guarantee you only ever needed one of them in front of you; a whole bunch of 1VP tokens would guarantee each "gain 1VP" transaction was as simple as possible.

There is a balance to be struck.

I was specifically referring to the efficiency of the cost of producing the tokens as compared to the number of values they can represent. You are of course correct that there are other things that you might want to be efficient.

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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #146 on: May 12, 2016, 02:29:30 pm »
0

I was specifically referring to the efficiency of the cost of producing the tokens
Oh! Well, now you have the problem that the up-front cost of making the die to stamp out coins is huge in relation to the cost of each coin. Making twice as many denominations probably costs a lot more than making twice as many coins. :-p
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #147 on: May 13, 2016, 01:13:05 pm »
+2

Chariot is trying to make Spy good?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #148 on: May 14, 2016, 01:19:48 am »
+2

I don't know why, but the equal parts randomness and interaction in Chariot Race make me very, very happy, and make it something I'm really looking forward to using.

Though I guess there there are a great many ways to ensure that the outcome isn't "random" at all.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #149 on: May 15, 2016, 08:08:58 am »
0

Those three are my favorites from the preview so far. Temple and Chariot Race are very interesting. Overall, I like that this expansion care about victory points. That was missing from other expansions. I hope there will be a new standard Alt VP card, like Feodum in Dark Ages.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #150 on: May 15, 2016, 08:25:59 am »
0

I hope there will be a new standard Alt VP card, like Feodum in Dark Ages.

There most likely won't be one, since it would require 12 cards in the pile and that doesn't add up.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #151 on: May 15, 2016, 08:30:26 am »
0

Chariot is trying to make Spy good?
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #152 on: May 15, 2016, 06:01:47 pm »
+6

I hope there will be a new standard Alt VP card, like Feodum in Dark Ages.

There most likely won't be one, since it would require 12 cards in the pile and that doesn't add up.

This is true, but VP-wise this set is amazing. I mean, we do get an alt. vp card with the Castles. Then, I believed Donald X. said we're getting 9 VP token Kingdom cards plus 21 Landmarks and at least 2 Events that make VP. Prior to this including Colonies and VP token cards and all alt. VP, we only had 17 alternative VP conditions. If at least 3 Events make VP then Empires doubles that number within itself. Essentially, after Empires comes out, we're looking at tripling the total amount of VP conditions.  :o
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 06:03:44 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #153 on: June 22, 2016, 04:11:49 pm »
0

I just realized how much Wild Hunt and Farmers' Market suck in the Black Market deck, Farmer's Market becomes Ruined Market for $4, Wild Hunt a Smithy for $5. Temple doesn't seem that bad though.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #154 on: June 22, 2016, 04:39:54 pm »
+3

I just realized how much Wild Hunt and Farmers' Market suck in the Black Market deck, Farmer's Market becomes Ruined Market for $4, Wild Hunt a Smithy for $5. Temple doesn't seem that bad though.

Wild Hunt from Black Market is still better than Smithy... you have the option to gain an Estate instead of +3 cards. Theoretically useful.
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #155 on: June 22, 2016, 09:28:16 pm »
+1

Sometimes you need the draw. Smithy for $5 isn't terrible.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 02:15:15 am by Beyond Awesome »
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Re: Empires Previews #3: VP Tokens
« Reply #156 on: June 22, 2016, 11:55:03 pm »
0

I just realized how much Wild Hunt and Farmers' Market suck in the Black Market deck, Farmer's Market becomes Ruined Market for $4, Wild Hunt a Smithy for $5. Temple doesn't seem that bad though.

Oh, huh, interesting. An unintended(?) side effect of using the supply piles for bookkeeping.
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