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Author Topic: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown  (Read 37522 times)

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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #225 on: May 20, 2016, 08:18:21 pm »
+2

Well, I had an interesting time with a Magic player who was new to Dominion a couple of weeks ago.

"OK. Let me explain that again. Unless you play a card that says otherwise, first you may play one Action card. Then you may play any number of Treasures. Then you may buy one card. Once you're finished, you must discard any cards left in your hand. Then you draw five new cards at the end of your turn. Yes, you get through your deck quickly, but that doesn't matter because you don't lose if it's exhausted: just shuffle your gra... er... discards to make a new one."

It only took about two thirds of the first game for them to stop needing reminding and start getting their head around it. (-8
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #226 on: May 20, 2016, 11:22:32 pm »
+1

I find it's easy to teach Magic players.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #227 on: May 21, 2016, 03:50:30 am »
+3

The only problem I've ever had with Magic players is that one of them tried to pay the cost of an Action card again when he was playing it.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #228 on: May 21, 2016, 04:18:56 am »
+1

The only time I taught Dominion to Magic players the only problem I had was that it fell quite flat.
They were pretty casual, though, and I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal. Where are my Dragons? And what's so special about King's Courts?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #229 on: May 21, 2016, 05:00:27 am »
+4

I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

That's because our game is actually balanced 8)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #230 on: May 21, 2016, 05:09:02 am »
+1

I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

Well, we still have stuff like Scout and Thief that are kind of equivalent to Magic's Timmy stuff in terms of power level.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #231 on: May 26, 2016, 01:55:04 pm »
+3

I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

Well, we still have stuff like Scout and Thief that are kind of equivalent to Magic's Timmy stuff in terms of power level.

I think a better analogy might be stuff like Treasure Map, which looks hugely powerful, but really isn't.

EDIT: I guess sometimes Scout and Thief look really strong to rookies.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #232 on: May 26, 2016, 09:00:00 pm »
+3

I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

Well, we still have stuff like Scout and Thief that are kind of equivalent to Magic's Timmy stuff in terms of power level.

I think a better analogy might be stuff like Treasure Map, which looks hugely powerful, but really isn't.

EDIT: I guess sometimes Scout and Thief look really strong to rookies.

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JThorne

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #233 on: May 27, 2016, 10:11:09 am »
+6

Magic players are usually easy marks for getting addicted to Dominion. First of all, they love lots of variety, so I usually play two games right up front (randomizing from the entire collection and cutting slog-makers) so that they can see how different the games can be.

But more importantly, a large part of the fun of Magic is the acquisition part. The buying of cards. Magic players get an endorphin rush just from the smell of a newly-opened booster pack of cards that they now own. And there's the anticipation factor of flipping through the stack seeing what those cards are (or, at least, what the rare is.)

The act of buying cards is the principle game mechanic of Dominion. You get that endorphin rush every time you pick up a card from the supply and place it in your pile. And when you clean up and draw a whole new hand at the end of each turn, you get that anticipation factor of flipping through a whole new hand instead of just one card.

The money/acquisition cycle is a powerfully addictive one. Magic takes advantage of that by actually selling cards to players with real money. Dominion acknowledges that principle and uses it to make a fun and engaging game using virtual money. Some of us have given up the Magic treadmill for good. I sold my collection years ago.

Dominion is like methodone for ex-Magic players.

Now shut up and take my money for Empires.

(On the flip side, it's accessible for non-hardcore gamers. When I tell casual gamers that Magic releases as many new cards as are in all of the Dominion expansions put together approximately every six months, they're aghast. As they should be.)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #234 on: May 27, 2016, 10:32:51 am »
+2

Magic players are usually easy marks for getting addicted to Dominion. First of all, they love lots of variety, so I usually play two games right up front (randomizing from the entire collection and cutting slog-makers) so that they can see how different the games can be.

But more importantly, a large part of the fun of Magic is the acquisition part. The buying of cards. Magic players get an endorphin rush just from the smell of a newly-opened booster pack of cards that they now own. And there's the anticipation factor of flipping through the stack seeing what those cards are (or, at least, what the rare is.)

The act of buying cards is the principle game mechanic of Dominion. You get that endorphin rush every time you pick up a card from the supply and place it in your pile. And when you clean up and draw a whole new hand at the end of each turn, you get that anticipation factor of flipping through a whole new hand instead of just one card.

The money/acquisition cycle is a powerfully addictive one. Magic takes advantage of that by actually selling cards to players with real money. Dominion acknowledges that principle and uses it to make a fun and engaging game using virtual money. Some of us have given up the Magic treadmill for good. I sold my collection years ago.

Dominion is like methodone for ex-Magic players.

Now shut up and take my money for Empires.

(On the flip side, it's accessible for non-hardcore gamers. When I tell casual gamers that Magic releases as many new cards as are in all of the Dominion expansions put together approximately every six months, they're aghast. As they should be.)

Thank you for that, JThorne. Now I know for sure I'm never going to play Magic. As someone who thoroughly enjoys methadone, I'm not going to make the jump up to heroin. :P
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #235 on: May 27, 2016, 11:10:28 am »
0

I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

Well, we still have stuff like Scout and Thief that are kind of equivalent to Magic's Timmy stuff in terms of power level.

I think a better analogy might be stuff like Treasure Map, which looks hugely powerful, but really isn't.

EDIT: I guess sometimes Scout and Thief look really strong to rookies.

"You mean Saboteur TRASHES THEIR CARDS!?!?!?!?!?!?  OMG SO POWERFUL OP"

I remember the first game I played with Intrigue cards. It was a 6p game. The first played opened Saboteur and then the rest of us rushed the Ironworks. Maybe it didn't help that we had just played a Uni/Vineyards game so we were all in the mindset of "must get all the action cards".

werothegreat

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #236 on: May 27, 2016, 11:26:05 am »
+1

I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

Well, we still have stuff like Scout and Thief that are kind of equivalent to Magic's Timmy stuff in terms of power level.

I think a better analogy might be stuff like Treasure Map, which looks hugely powerful, but really isn't.

EDIT: I guess sometimes Scout and Thief look really strong to rookies.

"You mean Saboteur TRASHES THEIR CARDS!?!?!?!?!?!?  OMG SO POWERFUL OP"

I remember the first game I played with Intrigue cards. It was a 6p game. The first played opened Saboteur and then the rest of us rushed the Ironworks. Maybe it didn't help that we had just played a Uni/Vineyards game so we were all in the mindset of "must get all the action cards".

How the Saboteur player must have felt:

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #237 on: May 27, 2016, 02:57:45 pm »
0

I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

Can someone summarize Timmy for me?  I don't remember the idea and don't want to reread the article...
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #238 on: May 27, 2016, 03:05:35 pm »
0

I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

Can someone summarize Timmy for me?  I don't remember the idea and don't want to reread the article...

Likes to play "big" cards, like Champion.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #239 on: May 27, 2016, 03:10:06 pm »
0

I thought it was actually referring to Tim:

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #240 on: May 27, 2016, 03:11:36 pm »
+2

I agree a new player might not have as much trouble accepting an Action-Treasure or a card that returns to your action phase, because he never got used to some categories which i still think were useful in understanding the game. It's not something new to explain, but instead means that you can't explain things as easily as you used to. You have to be more accurate. Obviously, those things happen all the time. Before Horn of Plenty and Bank, people could just put all their money on the table in any order, and nobody cared. Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too. Those simplifications which work at the beginning and then have to be replaced with more accurate explanations happen all the time, and it's obviously necessary for a game that adds more and more content.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #241 on: May 27, 2016, 03:26:07 pm »
+7

Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too.

No  :'( This isn't okay.  People don't just flash their cards and say "I have a Royal Flush" in Poker.  You have to actually adequately show your opponents what you are doing.

/pet-peeve

(sorry)

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #242 on: May 27, 2016, 06:14:46 pm »
0

I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

Well, we still have stuff like Scout and Thief that are kind of equivalent to Magic's Timmy stuff in terms of power level.

I think a better analogy might be stuff like Treasure Map, which looks hugely powerful, but really isn't.

EDIT: I guess sometimes Scout and Thief look really strong to rookies.

"You mean Saboteur TRASHES THEIR CARDS!?!?!?!?!?!?  OMG SO POWERFUL OP"

I remember the first game I played with Intrigue cards. It was a 6p game. The first played opened Saboteur and then the rest of us rushed the Ironworks. Maybe it didn't help that we had just played a Uni/Vineyards game so we were all in the mindset of "must get all the action cards".
My first game with Saboteur was a five-player game where everyone was so afraid of them that we basically developed an unspoken agreement not to use them (it reminded me a little of the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction during the Cold War).  Then late in the game, one of the players who was trailing got desperate and bought one, and soon everyone was going for them.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #243 on: May 27, 2016, 06:22:01 pm »
+7

Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too.

No  :'( This isn't okay.  People don't just flash their cards and say "I have a Royal Flush" in Poker.  You have to actually adequately show your opponents what you are doing.

/pet-peeve

(sorry)

Some of us play with friends for fun, not with strangers for leaderboards. I called the fun police, and they said, i quote: "Whatever suits you. Just make sure everyone consents and is of legal age". Now that i think of it, maybe i called the wrong guys, but you get my point.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #244 on: May 27, 2016, 06:23:29 pm »
+1

Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too.

No  :'( This isn't okay.  People don't just flash their cards and say "I have a Royal Flush" in Poker.  You have to actually adequately show your opponents what you are doing.

/pet-peeve

(sorry)

Obviously this is going to be very situational, such as the group you are playing with, the setting, etc. In a tournament, or just a casual game with a friend? Playing a big specific amount of treasures and buys so that you then pick up 2 Provinces and a Duchy? Or just laying down a few Coppers and grabbing a Silver for $3?

I played 6 games with my sister-in-law over the past few days (first Dominion games in a long time actually), and for more than half of the turns, our buy phase just consisted of laying our hand down on the table (VP and unused actions included) and then saying "I have $x; I'll take a ____".
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #245 on: May 27, 2016, 06:33:41 pm »
+2

Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too.

No  :'( This isn't okay.  People don't just flash their cards and say "I have a Royal Flush" in Poker.  You have to actually adequately show your opponents what you are doing.

/pet-peeve

(sorry)

Don't you dare apologize for that.  Proper Dominion rules etiquette must be enforced with a iron fist, and maybe a ruler to the knuckles.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #246 on: May 27, 2016, 07:16:23 pm »
+3

Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too.

No  :'( This isn't okay.  People don't just flash their cards and say "I have a Royal Flush" in Poker.  You have to actually adequately show your opponents what you are doing.

/pet-peeve

(sorry)

Don't you dare apologize for that.  Proper Dominion rules etiquette must be enforced with a iron fist, and maybe a ruler to the knuckles.

The fun police told me that flashing my stuff in front of strangers wouldn't be okay, but nobody had the right to deny our group to do that in our own place. They also said that i should not invite people expressing a desire to hit me to my house if i didn't want that. Apparently, i called the right people after all.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #247 on: May 29, 2016, 10:24:15 am »
0

Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too.

No  :'( This isn't okay.  People don't just flash their cards and say "I have a Royal Flush" in Poker.  You have to actually adequately show your opponents what you are doing.

/pet-peeve

(sorry)

In all seriousness: Nobody denies your right to demand knowing what's going on. Stop denying me the right to be fine with flashing cards at me. If i really wanna know, or doubt the integrity or intellect of my friends, i'll just ask them to show me again. Seriously.

Also, Poker has 48 different, 2-attribute cards where order and pairing matter. Dominion has 3 different, trivially incremental base treasures. 80% of the time, flashing them is more than enough time, especially as you start with only one kind of treasure where counting them is enough already. And as mentioned, nobody implied i can't see them again if i didn't get it. Do you also check the sleeves of your friends for hidden Provinces when you invite them to a game night?

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #248 on: May 29, 2016, 11:09:54 am »
+2

Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too.

No  :'( This isn't okay.  People don't just flash their cards and say "I have a Royal Flush" in Poker.  You have to actually adequately show your opponents what you are doing.

/pet-peeve

(sorry)

In all seriousness: Nobody denies your right to demand knowing what's going on. Stop denying me the right to be fine with flashing cards at me. If i really wanna know, or doubt the integrity or intellect of my friends, i'll just ask them to show me again. Seriously.

Also, Poker has 48 different, 2-attribute cards where order and pairing matter. Dominion has 3 different, trivially incremental base treasures. 80% of the time, flashing them is more than enough time, especially as you start with only one kind of treasure where counting them is enough already. And as mentioned, nobody implied i can't see them again if i didn't get it. Do you also check the sleeves of your friends for hidden Provinces when you invite them to a game night?

No, because nobody wants to come any more, for some reason.  :'(

Maybe installing that anti-vp-token metal detector by the door was a bit too much?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 11:13:15 am by Accatitippi »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #249 on: May 29, 2016, 02:38:35 pm »
+7

Hey, I didn't reply again to this stuff because it's fine for people to have different opinions. I don't feel much like arguing about it, but you're replying a second time, so maybe you want me to defend my anti-fun opinion.

I don't think my friends are trying to cheat at games. My opinion is based entirely on the honest mistakes that are inherent to the nature of games with complex rules. Everyone makes mistakes. Playing in a way that allows the rest of the players to easily sanity check you moves is just common sense. I won't try to argue that someone is going to mess up counting 3 Coppers, but I have definitely seen people think they have $7 when they actually have $8 and vice-versa. Turn 1 and 2 are trivial, but I don't think bad habits should be practiced.

That's really all I have to say. I really shouldn't have commented because you said "as long as nobody else cared", which means I don't actually disagree with what you said.
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