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Author Topic: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown  (Read 26615 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2016, 11:59:53 am »
+1

You're playing an action, that should require an action point to do so. At the same time, you're playing a Treasure, why do you have to spend an action point?

What? You don't have to spend an Action to play Crown in your Buy phase.

I know; I'm just saying it seems awkward and confusing. You can play an action without spending an action point. And earlier in that same turn, you maybe had to spend an action point to play a treasure.

You are thinking about this backwards. It does not "cost" an Action to play an Action card, and it never has. If it did, it would cost 3 Actions to Throne Room a Smithy. All the Action type intrinsically means is that you may spend an Action during your Action phase to play that card (whenever you're not actively resolving any effects). Crown is an Action card, so you may spend an Action during your Action phase to play Crown. You may not spend an Action during your Action phase to play a Gold or a Duchy, because those cards do not have the Action type.

All the Treasure type intrinsically means is that you may play that card during the first portion of your Buy phase (before buying anything or paying off Debt); it doesn't cost any resources to do so. Crown is a Treasure card, so you may play it during that first portion of your Buy phase. Actions never enter into it. You may not play Smithy or Curse during your Buy phase, because those cards do not have the Treasure type.

Strangely, I'm not sure what the Victory type intrinsically means. I guess it means you need to follow its instructions/add its VP to your total at the end of the game, but that doesn't even necessarily apply to Overgrown Estate.

Most types don't intrinsically mean anything... Knight, Attack, Reaction, and Shelter don't have any rule associations. Duration only has 1 small rule. Looter only affects setup.

For victory, I actually don't know the answer. If an action card were released that had the 2VP symbol on it, like Nobles, but it were not a "victory" type, would you still count it at the end of the game? Or does "Victory" allow it to be counted?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2016, 12:02:03 pm »
+3

Strangely, I'm not sure what the Victory type intrinsically means. I guess it means you need to follow its instructions/add its VP to your total at the end of the game, but that doesn't even necessarily apply to Overgrown Estate.

Well two things. First, I think it's nice for all cards to have at least one type. It's just aesthetically pleasing. Second, colors are associated with types in Dominion, and it's convenient for Victory cards to be a specific color for ease of separation and counting at the end of the game. It's the same reason that Reactions have their own type: so that they can be blue and jump out at you in your hand.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 12:03:28 pm by LastFootnote »
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werothegreat

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2016, 12:03:03 pm »
+2

I'm just glad the Action-y part is over the white Action color, and the Treasure-y part is over the yellow Treasure color.

This is in stark contrast to some other cards.

*glares at Overgrown Estate*
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dane-m

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2016, 12:04:48 pm »
+2

On the other hand, if you have a hand of Storyteller, Crown, Tactician, Copper, Estate, say, then you can play Storyteller, play Copper, play Crown on Tactician, discarding Estate the first time and nothing the second, then draw 2 cards from Storyteller to let you continue your go *and* get the +5 Cards +1 Action +1 Buy from Tactician next turn.
You're not being ambitious enough.  Aim for a hand of Storyteller, Crown, Kings Court, Golem and Platinum with your '+1 card' token on Tactician and no action cards other than six Tacticians in your deck.  Play Storyteller, play Platinum, play Crown on KC, play Golem three times, playing two Tacticians each time, each one drawing a card to discard.  Then draw 6 cards from Storyteller to let you continue your turn and get +30 Cards, +6 Actions and +6 Buys from your Tacticians next turn.  :)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2016, 12:23:14 pm »
0

Strangely, I'm not sure what the Victory type intrinsically means. I guess it means you need to follow its instructions/add its VP to your total at the end of the game, but that doesn't even necessarily apply to Overgrown Estate.

Most types in Dominion don't intrinsically mean anything. They are just ways to refer to a class of cards.
The exceptions are Action, Treasure and Duration. Maybe also Looter since it has a set-up rule referring to another pile of cards.
Victory, Curse, Prize, Knight, Ruins, Shelter and Traveller cards also have special set-up rules, but then again so do certain cards.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2016, 12:33:19 pm »
+6

My first impression is that Crown is weak.  Playing a treasure twice isn't nearly as good as playing an action twice.  Throning an action effectively gives you +1 Action, but Throning a treasure doesn't give anything of the sort.  If only standard treasures are available, Crown can never be better than a gold during your Buy phase.

At the very least, throning a treasure is a decent consolation prize if you draw this dead. Also there are plenty of treasures that can be better than gold to throne so limiting the conversation to only standard treasures isn't so productive. But even if you do, a $5 gold that sometimes is only a silver or copper isn't terrible. 5 might be a bit steep for either the action or treasure part, but you have to charge extra for the flexibility. It won't be a powerhouse but I bet it sees plenty of play still.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 12:38:04 pm by jonts26 »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2016, 12:34:46 pm »
0

I know most types don't intrinsically mean anything (most aren't even used in an "average" game). Action and Treasure do, so it got me thinking more about Victory specifically because it's the other most common type, and it's used in every game. If it weren't for Overgrown Estate, it would seem like Victory at least means "this might be worth points for you."
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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2016, 12:48:03 pm »
0

You're not being ambitious enough. [...]Then draw 6 cards from Storyteller to let you continue your turn and get +30 Cards, +6 Actions and +6 Buys from your Tacticians next turn.  :)
You're not being ambitious enough, either.

People have already discussed how to get infinite actions and infinite buy using Bonfire/Villa shenanigans. It has to be possible to parlay that into an infinite-Tactician turn.
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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2016, 12:54:22 pm »
+2

Crown has forced me - and I suspect many others - to reappraise how some very fundamental aspects of Dominion work. Which may be part of the confusion.

I'd always thought that Action cards had an "on-play-as-action" trigger that did did something, and Treasures had an "on-play-as-treasure" trigger that did something. In your Action phase, for so long as you still had action quota available, you could play a card from your hand as an Action, if it had the Action type. Then, in your Buy phase, you could play as many cards from your hand as you liked as Treasures, if they had the Treasure type.

By this way of thinking, when you play Black Market or Storyteller, you then get to play some cards as Treasures.

So I - and I suspect many others - assumed that if we ever saw an Action-Treasure card, it would have an on-play-as-action trigger which did one thing and an on-play-as-treasure trigger which did something different. If you played it on Black Market or Storyteller, it would on-play-as-treasure.


But it turns out it's not really like that at all. Instead, cards have a single "on-play" trigger. You never play a card as an Action or as a Treasure, and when you play Crown what matters is whether you're in the Action or the Buy phase. We live and learn.
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pacovf

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2016, 12:55:51 pm »
+6

Well, I am totally claiming that I called this one, a year and a half ago. *bragging rights*

Quote
Magic Mirror
Types: Action - Treasure
Cost: 4$
Play this as if it were an Action or Treasure card in your play area that you choose.
This is that card until either leaves play.

(same idea, different implementation)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2016, 01:25:31 pm »
0

Oh hey, I semi-accurately predicted this card's name!

Laurel Crown
$6 - Action-Treasure
Worth $2
[When you play this,] +2 cards

I'm actually a tiny bit disappointed by Crown because we already have Throne Room and Counterfeit.  This is perfectly fine still, but it feels more like old ground than I'd expected the Action-Treasure to be.  Granted, my guess was just vanilla bonuses anyway.

I think I'd probably pick up at least one Counterfeit before this, for the trashing.  I don't know how often I'd pick this over other key $5s though... Probably if I would buy this, I would also have been happy with TR at $5.  Being able to double Treasures is just icing.
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werothegreat

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2016, 01:28:12 pm »
0

I'm actually a tiny bit disappointed by Crown because we already have Throne Room and Counterfeit.

This is ridiculously flexible, though, and has all those shenanigans with Storyteller and Black Market.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2016, 01:34:22 pm »
+3

Yeah, I don't want to be in a game with this and Black Market.

I sure as hell don't want to be the guy programming the edge cases.  And yet I suspect Stef and SCSN already have it done.
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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2016, 01:36:19 pm »
0

(same idea, different implementation)
Subtle differences that have an oh-so-huge effect.

Yours would allow Actions to be re-played during the Buy phase. You could also play a Prince, not set it aside, then use Magic Mirrors as cheap Princes for the rest of the turn. And you might be able to play it as a Traveller then upgrade it.

Conversely, you couldn't replay a self-trasher like Feast.
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werothegreat

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2016, 01:38:14 pm »
0

Yeah, I don't want to be in a game with this and Black Market.

I sure as hell don't want to be the guy programming the edge cases.  And yet I suspect Stef and SCSN already have it done.

My secret sources tell me they do, along with Villa.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2016, 01:38:59 pm »
0

At first, I thought this had a cost-comparison/balance issue with Counterfeit (Throne Room=4, Counterfeit=5...Crown=5?), but I guess it's pretty major that Crown itself doesn't give +Buy.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2016, 01:43:54 pm »
0

I'm actually a tiny bit disappointed by Crown because we already have Throne Room and Counterfeit.

This is ridiculously flexible, though, and has all those shenanigans with Storyteller and Black Market.

Yeah, but I think the treasure doubling will usually be just a consolation prize.  The Storyteller/Black Market shenanigans don't sound all that useful to me.  Yeah you can resolve more action cards while in the middle of resolving another... but how does that help me?  You get a virtual +1 action out of it, I guess.  Maybe there are some special scenarios where it does something crazy.  But mostly it's not all that different from playing Crown separately.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2016, 01:44:49 pm »
+2

At first, I thought this had a cost-comparison/balance issue with Counterfeit (Throne Room=4, Counterfeit=5...Crown=5?), but I guess it's pretty major that Crown itself doesn't give +Buy.

It's bigger that Crown doesn't help you trash Copper.

Edit: typooooo
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 07:16:13 pm by eHalcyon »
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werothegreat

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2016, 01:48:25 pm »
+1

Yeah, but I think the treasure doubling will usually be just a consolation prize.

I beg to differ.  I think doubling Treasure Troves, Ventures or Capitals will be strategies unto their own.  Also, it's cheaper to buy a Crown than a second Platinum.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2016, 01:49:55 pm »
+2

Yeah, I don't want to be in a game with this and Black Market.

I sure as hell don't want to be the guy programming the edge cases.  And yet I suspect Stef and SCSN already have it done.

My secret sources tell me they do, along with Villa.

I really want to beta test their program.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2016, 01:50:53 pm »
0

Yeah, I don't want to be in a game with this and Black Market.

I sure as hell don't want to be the guy programming the edge cases.  And yet I suspect Stef and SCSN already have it done.

My secret sources tell me they do, along with Villa.

I really want to beta test their program.

Join the club.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2016, 01:53:33 pm »
0

Yeah, but I think the treasure doubling will usually be just a consolation prize.

I beg to differ.  I think doubling Treasure Troves, Ventures or Capitals will be strategies unto their own.  Also, it's cheaper to buy a Crown than a second Platinum.

There are more kingdom actions than treasures.  Yeah there will be times when you really want to double a treasure, but I still think doubling actions will be the priority most often.
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math

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2016, 01:57:41 pm »
+3

Interesting fact:  Unlike any other Throne Room variant (including Counterfeit), Crown-in-buy-phase gives the exact same effect whether you Crown a Crown or play two Crowns separately.

Also, Crown+Capital is nuts, even better than doubling Platinum.
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ben_king

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2016, 02:04:54 pm »
+2

Interesting fact:  Unlike any other Throne Room variant (including Counterfeit), Crown-in-buy-phase gives the exact same effect whether you Crown a Crown or play two Crowns separately.

Also, Crown+Capital is nuts, even better than doubling Platinum.

Here's an interesting question, if you Crown a treasure, can you call back Royal Carriage to play the Crown again and double another treasure?  My hunch is that you should be able to.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2016, 02:05:37 pm »
0

I love this idea. A Throne Room which you almost never draw dead. I also like the "you may" wording, which fixes probably unwanted effects with Venture and Golem.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 04:36:43 pm by King Leon »
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