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Author Topic: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown  (Read 38010 times)

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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #100 on: May 14, 2016, 03:09:34 pm »
+1

I think Crown would be more complicated as a reaction.
How about "Immediately after resolving an Action or Treasure you may discard this from your hand. If you do, play that Action or Treasure again."?

That's not the same card - it behaves differently in several respects - but it's similar and  doesn't feel complicated to me.
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Asper

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #101 on: May 14, 2016, 03:35:26 pm »
0

I think Crown would be more complicated as a reaction.
How about "Immediately after resolving an Action or Treasure you may discard this from your hand. If you do, play that Action or Treasure again."?

That's not the same card - it behaves differently in several respects - but it's similar and  doesn't feel complicated to me.

"At the start of your buy phase, you may discard this. If you do, you may play a Treasure card from your hand twice."
Possibly you'd need to set it aside instead, because, yay, now we have "Return to your action phase"...

ThetaSigma12

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #102 on: May 14, 2016, 03:41:41 pm »
+6

I think Crown would be more complicated as a reaction.
How about "Immediately after resolving an Action or Treasure you may discard this from your hand. If you do, play that Action or Treasure again."?

That's not the same card - it behaves differently in several respects - but it's similar and  doesn't feel complicated to me.

"At the start of your buy phase, you may discard this. If you do, you may play a Treasure card from your hand twice."
But why is this superior to what we have now?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #103 on: May 14, 2016, 03:58:41 pm »
+5

I think Crown would be more complicated as a reaction.
How about "Immediately after resolving an Action or Treasure you may discard this from your hand. If you do, play that Action or Treasure again."?

That's not the same card - it behaves differently in several respects - but it's similar and  doesn't feel complicated to me.

It just makes more sense to have Crown be in play, reminding you that you played the Action or Treasure card twice. I am thoroughly unconvinced that a Reaction would be simpler.
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Asper

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #104 on: May 14, 2016, 09:20:26 pm »
+2

Meh. I'm convinced Reaction's better. And i think that not doing something is also an option. I'm not sure we needed Crown. However, i will admit that, thinking about it, the possibility to play a card either way is something that elevates this card beyond simply TR/Treasure-TR, two concepts we already have. And i guess making such a card a TR makes sure you can't use it as a single-card strategy, which was my card's main flaw. So i guess you get something original here, and it even makes sense.

Either way, i'm not the guy who's name is on the box, so i have nothing to say on the matter. I'm free to not like or buy it, just as everyone is free to not like or buy things i create. I mean, i wrote this knowing that nobody would agree with me, but if what feels like hundreds of people shout out how much they love everything, i can also say that, no sir, i don't like it. Everyone here should be able to take that. Donald knows how many people love his game. It's not like he'll be sad only because i don't like something he did. At least i hope he doesn't take it personally. Again, my worst critizism was that -from my opinion -Dominion was approaching normal boardgame expansion behaviour. Some time ago, someone used my quote "Donald X made me a design snob" as his signature. This describes what i expect from Donald, and i expected him to do something incredibly clever if he wanted something that worked like an Action-Treasure. Apart from making it a TR-variant to exclude a single-card strategy, Crown doesn't meet my expectations.

Also, to answer an implied question from earlier, Dominion has absolutely nothing to do with that i intend to leave the forums. I was melodramatic when i said it's not the game i love anymore. It's neither the other users. Me leaving, if you can actually say i left, is due to a few of my own projects, which i wanted to focus on. If everything goes right, some day, i may be in the position to have my own boardgame critizised by internet know-it-alls, too.

Seprix

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #105 on: May 14, 2016, 09:56:09 pm »
0

Meh. I'm convinced Reaction's better.

And I'm convinced you're wrong. Donald has designed plenty of games, I trust he knows what he is doing.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #106 on: May 14, 2016, 09:57:54 pm »
+12

Dominion's a pretty cool guy. Eh makes an action treasure and doesn't afraid of anything.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #107 on: May 14, 2016, 10:20:01 pm »
+3

Meh. I'm convinced Reaction's better.

And I'm convinced you're wrong. Donald has designed plenty of games, I trust he knows what he is doing.

There's an element of personal preference / opinion here; not straight fact. I am quite convinced that Donald knows for more about card design than I do; but in my personal opinion both Villa and Crown feel gimmicky and add complexity without much value. But that's just my opinion; and only based on knowing what they do; having not played with them.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #108 on: May 14, 2016, 10:34:07 pm »
+11

There's an element of personal preference / opinion here; not straight fact. I am quite convinced that Donald knows for more about card design than I do; but in my personal opinion both Villa and Crown feel gimmicky and add complexity without much value. But that's just my opinion; and only based on knowing what they do; having not played with them.
To me, Villa is that card that was some people's favorite Dominion card ever, that was nothing but endless good times; and Crown is that card people adored despite it mostly being Throne Room, that never caused any confusion whatsoever. And they were both novel, which people love.

I have no interest in making expansions that are all cards that already exist; no-one needs them. If those two adored cards that never messed up our games are too gimmicky or complex then I mean there's no possibility for making more expansions. I desperately need cards just like those cards, every time out, for there to be any point to the products.

The big take-away for me was not to do previews next time. It's work; it's stressful; and then people say "oh what if you combine this with Possession and Black Market, this expansion is too complex." Man.
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Asper

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #109 on: May 14, 2016, 10:45:46 pm »
+7

Please, Donald, don't stop because of me. I'm sorry and i'll shut up now. A lot of people here are excited, and you make an effort nobody could expect of you by doing all of this. I took that effort for granted and derailed this thing you are doing for all of us with my preferences. I'm genuinely sorry :(

werothegreat

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #110 on: May 14, 2016, 10:53:31 pm »
0

Dammit.  I wanted to make a joke, but it would have accidentally hinted at an Empires card name that hasn't been revealed yet.
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Elestan

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #111 on: May 14, 2016, 11:10:24 pm »
+4

The big take-away for me was not to do previews next time. It's work; it's stressful; and then people say "oh what if you combine this with Possession and Black Market, this expansion is too complex." Man.

So far, I think the ratio of positive to negative feedback on the previews is something like 10-1 in favor.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #112 on: May 14, 2016, 11:19:17 pm »
+7

Please, Donald, don't stop because of me. I'm sorry and i'll shut up now. A lot of people here are excited, and you make an effort nobody could expect of you by doing all of this. I took that effort for granted and derailed this thing you are doing for all of us with my preferences. I'm genuinely sorry :(
Dude if it was just you I would just be blaming you, quietly in a corner.

I know there's like, what is there to talk about. The reddit thread for Landmarks is all about how they could do a better job wording Keep; that's what they found to talk about. There's not much point to just oohing and ahing. A wording, there was something they could sink their teeth into.

But uh. If the set were out, and someone said, wow Crown is complex, someone else would speak up with their actual personal experience that did not demonstrate this. There would be no traction to the complaint, unless the card were really confusing people. It's a preview though, so it's just hanging there, to be marveled at, and then, again, what conversation topics are there? Well hey, how does this work with Storyteller. Huh that's confusing. I guess this is super-confusing card.
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Nflickner

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #113 on: May 14, 2016, 11:27:21 pm »
+2

There's an element of personal preference / opinion here; not straight fact. I am quite convinced that Donald knows for more about card design than I do; but in my personal opinion both Villa and Crown feel gimmicky and add complexity without much value. But that's just my opinion; and only based on knowing what they do; having not played with them.
To me, Villa is that card that was some people's favorite Dominion card ever, that was nothing but endless good times; and Crown is that card people adored despite it mostly being Throne Room, that never caused any confusion whatsoever. And they were both novel, which people love.

I have no interest in making expansions that are all cards that already exist; no-one needs them. If those two adored cards that never messed up our games are too gimmicky or complex then I mean there's no possibility for making more expansions. I desperately need cards just like those cards, every time out, for there to be any point to the products.

The big take-away for me was not to do previews next time. It's work; it's stressful; and then people say "oh what if you combine this with Possession and Black Market, this expansion is too complex." Man.

Please, Donald, don't stop because of me. I'm sorry and i'll shut up now. A lot of people here are excited, and you make an effort nobody could expect of you by doing all of this. I took that effort for granted and derailed this thing you are doing for all of us with my preferences. I'm genuinely sorry :(

I feel like I'm observing a conversation between the God and the Moses of Dominion--and I feel privileged just to be able to listen.  For a long long time, I have loved Dominion.  (I think I started playing it shortly before or after Seaside came out.)  I have loved it for many of the same reasons that Asper has.  The design and balance of Dominion is impeccable and unmatched.  Whenever I have tried other deckbuilding games, or even other board games in general, I always compare them to Dominion and feel disappointed by them. 
In the last few months I have been frequenting the fan card forums here, and discovered great joy in the cards of Asper, CL, LFN, and others, especially appreciating Seasons (made by Asper and CL), as I felt like it gave Dominion a whole new dynamic that I really enjoyed, as well as having that same high degree of balance and design that real expansions of Donald have had.  (I actually prefer Seasons to Alchemy, which is shocking for me to admit, because it takes alot of skill to make a fan expansion that is actually playable and enjoyable.) 
I personally am very excited about the new expansion and think that it will probably be the best expansion so far (I think Adventures is my favorite, followed by Dark Ages--they keep getting better).  I also don't think the new cards are too complicated or whatever, but I really appreciate Aspers thoughts and hope that we all can get along :)

 
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Nflickner

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #114 on: May 14, 2016, 11:36:36 pm »
+1

I know there's like, what is there to talk about. The reddit thread for Landmarks is all about how they could do a better job wording Keep; that's what they found to talk about. There's not much point to just oohing and ahing. A wording, there was something they could sink their teeth into.
This is a little ridiculous--not sure why people feel the need to nitpick over something as small as wording.  I actually really appreciate the wording that you choose for your cards, even though at first it takes a second to get used to, because the wording means EXACTLY what it says, which is helpful.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 11:45:03 pm by Nflickner »
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SuperHans

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #115 on: May 14, 2016, 11:36:57 pm »
+5

Man. I love the previews. I look forward to them every time there is a new set. And I'm clearly not the only one. I mean, consider the traffic on this site around 12pm EST every day. I would be disappointed if there were no previews for future sets (if any).

Frankly, I dont understand the complaining. If you don't like a card, don't play with it. Its really that simple. My wife doesn't like Possession, so we don't play with that card. The game is no less enjoyable for me.

I look forward to all of the new cards, and am glad this set is continuing to push the boundaries of the game.
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Nflickner

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #116 on: May 14, 2016, 11:44:05 pm »
+7

Man. I love the previews. I look forward to them every time there is a new set. And I'm clearly not the only one. I mean, consider the traffic on this site around 12pm EST every day. I would be disappointed if there were no previews for future sets (if any).

Frankly, I dont understand the complaining. If you don't like a card, don't play with it. Its really that simple. My wife doesn't like Possession, so we don't play with that card. The game is no less enjoyable for me.

I look forward to all of the new cards, and am glad this set is continuing to push the boundaries of the game.

I completely agree with everything said here.  Please don't ever stop the Previews.  I also love how they have become a sort of tradition.  The teasers, then the three cards.  It literally feels more exciting than Christmas.  No joke. 
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #117 on: May 14, 2016, 11:54:08 pm »
+12

Man. I love the previews. I look forward to them every time there is a new set. And I'm clearly not the only one. I mean, consider the traffic on this site around 12pm EST every day. I would be disappointed if there were no previews for future sets (if any).

Frankly, I dont understand the complaining. If you don't like a card, don't play with it. Its really that simple. My wife doesn't like Possession, so we don't play with that card. The game is no less enjoyable for me.

I look forward to all of the new cards, and am glad this set is continuing to push the boundaries of the game.

I completely agree with everything said here.  Please don't ever stop the Previews.  I also love how they have become a sort of tradition.  The teasers, then the three cards.  It literally feels more exciting than Christmas.  No joke.
Thanks. Did I say that stuff out loud? I could just not read any of the preview threads. There you go.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #118 on: May 14, 2016, 11:57:05 pm »
+5

I completely agree with everything said here.  Please don't ever stop the Previews.  I also love how they have become a sort of tradition.  The teasers, then the three cards.  It literally feels more exciting than Christmas.  No joke.

Imagine if the previewed cards were released onto Dominion Online the day they were previewed. Now that would be a good life.
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Nflickner

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #119 on: May 15, 2016, 12:12:42 am »
+4

Donald, can we please have more previews?  We need something to keep us going until release :)
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #120 on: May 15, 2016, 12:37:20 am »
+3

Imagine if the previewed cards were released onto Dominion Online the day they were previewed. Now that would be a good life.
People complained! Not very many, but you know. You can't please everyone. I remember Doug Z. saying, "sorry, guy who didn't want this."
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #121 on: May 15, 2016, 12:42:53 am »
+2

Donald, can we please have more previews?  We need something to keep us going until release :)

OK, so I know you're half-joking, but this made me think about how much of Empires has already been revealed! I mean any way you slice it, over half the Kingdom card piles were previewed. There are of course tons of un-previewed Events and Landmarks, and those are a huge chunk of new gameplay. But can you imagine if e.g. over 50% of Dark Ages was previewed before release? It's crazy when you think about it in those terms, is what I'm saying.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #122 on: May 15, 2016, 12:48:05 am »
+2

Donald, can we please have more previews?  We need something to keep us going until release :)

OK, so I know you're half-joking, but this made me think about how much of Empires has already been revealed! I mean any way you slice it, over half the Kingdom card piles were previewed. There are of course tons of un-previewed Events and Landmarks, and those are a huge chunk of new gameplay. But can you imagine if e.g. over 50% of Dark Ages was previewed before release? It's crazy when you think about it in those terms, is what I'm saying.

Well, Dark Ages released, like, a couple days after the previews.  Hinterlands released DURING previews.  I imagine Jay will be posting Empires rules sometime this week?
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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #123 on: May 15, 2016, 12:56:13 am »
+2

To be clear: one can have qualms about some of the things being previewed while still being glad and grateful that the previews are there. They've encouraged me to pre-order expansions I otherwise wouldn't have.

Possibly, the gap between previews and release is a little long this time? I mean, having chosen when previews come out then found that the release date is at the back end of the range of possibilities it probably wouldn't have been great to delay them, but...

I seem to remember that, with Dark Ages, online availability of the rulebook came hard on the heels of the previews, which quashed speculation about what else would be in the set, rules clarifications, etc. That gap is going to be longer this time.

And a lot of these cards aren't self-explanatory. Assuming the rulebook answers the kinds of questions people are having, its availability might quieten things down a bit.
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crj

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #124 on: May 15, 2016, 01:09:56 am »
+1

If those two adored cards that never messed up our games are too gimmicky or complex then I mean there's no possibility for making more expansions.
Well, I don't see people saying that about Enchantress, or Landmarks, or split piles, or the new Events.

So even if those cards are too gimmicky or complex, Empires shows thare are still plenty of innovations which aren't.
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