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Author Topic: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown  (Read 33910 times)

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faust

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Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« on: May 11, 2016, 10:03:38 am »
+21

(shamelessly copied from BGG to get loads of respect)



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It's still Tuesday where I live!

Crown is Dominion's first Action/Treasure. It's an Action. It's a Treasure. You can play it whenever you can play either of those things. It counts as both of those things for cards that care about what other cards are. It does something different depending on whether it's your Action phase or your Buy phase; not that different, though. You might use it as a Throne Room that doesn't totally suck if it doesn't collide with your other Actions. Or maybe you want to save it for your treasures; playing Platinum twice is probably better than playing Chancellor twice. When the crown's on your head, you make the call.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2016, 10:05:30 am »
+4

So you can play Crown during Black Market, and play another Black Market twice. If you do, will you keep the 3 revealed cards still revealed, and reveal the next 3?
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faust

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2016, 10:07:10 am »
+2

So you can play Crown during Black Market, and play another Black Market twice. If you do, will you keep the 3 revealed cards still revealed, and reveal the next 3?

I would think so. Also, you would only be able to buy among the newly revealed cards. If this is how it works, then I imagine it must be a pain to implement a decent interface.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2016, 10:09:27 am »
0

So you can play Crown during Black Market, and play another Black Market twice. If you do, will you keep the 3 revealed cards still revealed, and reveal the next 3?

I would think so. Also, you would only be able to buy among the newly revealed cards. If this is how it works, then I imagine it must be a pain to implement a decent interface.

Yeah, assuming that's how it works, this could even be chained... You could reveal huge number of cards from the Black Market all at once. The upper limit isn't so obvious to figure out when you consider Band of Misfits and Inheritance.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2016, 10:14:02 am »
+2

I thought Black Market explicitly didn't give you another Buy phase, but rather a one-time opportunity to buy a card and a "+1 Buy" for good measure.

Or have I got that backwards?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2016, 10:15:32 am »
+3

Anyway, I have always been a vocal opponent of Action-Treasure cards whenever they've been proposed for fan cards. And I have to say that my opinion hasn't really changed (this is just a first-reaction; obviously playing with the cards is a whole different level). It feels very awkward that the same card sometimes uses up an action point to play and sometimes doesn't. You're playing an action, that should require an action point to do so. At the same time, you're playing a Treasure, why do you have to spend an action point?

The effect itself seems fine; though I wonder if it was necessary to have different effects in buy phase vs action phase.

And then there's the fact that you can now play Actions while you are in the middle of resolving a Storyteller or Black Market. Now Donald has defended this on BGG by pointing out that the confusion there is the fault of Storyteller and Black Market, not of Crown. Well sure, but we already have Storyteller and Black Market.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2016, 10:16:54 am »
+1

I thought Black Market explicitly didn't give you another Buy phase, but rather a one-time opportunity to buy a card and a "+1 Buy" for good measure.

Or have I got that backwards?

It does NOT give you a buy phase, and that's the whole point. It is still your action phase while resolving Black Market, which means then when you play Crown, you are playing it in your action phase, so you choose another action from your hand and play it twice.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2016, 10:24:47 am »
0

I thought Black Market explicitly didn't give you another Buy phase, but rather a one-time opportunity to buy a card and a "+1 Buy" for good measure.

Or have I got that backwards?

It does NOT give you a buy phase, and that's the whole point. It is still your action phase while resolving Black Market, which means then when you play Crown, you are playing it in your action phase, so you choose another action from your hand and play it twice.

Wow, so you can play Tactician with Crown while having a Black Market effect for a free +10 Cards next turn. That's wicked good.
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Voltaire

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2016, 10:27:41 am »
0

You're playing an action, that should require an action point to do so. At the same time, you're playing a Treasure, why do you have to spend an action point?

What? You don't have to spend an Action to play Crown in your Buy phase.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2016, 10:29:08 am »
0

I thought Black Market explicitly didn't give you another Buy phase, but rather a one-time opportunity to buy a card and a "+1 Buy" for good measure.

Or have I got that backwards?

It does NOT give you a buy phase, and that's the whole point. It is still your action phase while resolving Black Market, which means then when you play Crown, you are playing it in your action phase, so you choose another action from your hand and play it twice.

Wow, so you can play Tactician with Crown while having a Black Market effect for a free +10 Cards next turn. That's wicked good.

The second time, you couldn't discard anything.  Not really any different than regular Black Market/Tactician enabled by a Village, or your previous Tactician. 
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2016, 10:31:55 am »
+1

I thought Black Market explicitly didn't give you another Buy phase, but rather a one-time opportunity to buy a card and a "+1 Buy" for good measure.

Or have I got that backwards?

It does NOT give you a buy phase, and that's the whole point. It is still your action phase while resolving Black Market, which means then when you play Crown, you are playing it in your action phase, so you choose another action from your hand and play it twice.

Wow, so you can play Tactician with Crown while having a Black Market effect for a free +10 Cards next turn. That's wicked good.

Not sure what you mean.... how is playing Tactician during the Black Market effect different than playing it right after? And how would you use that to get +10 cards instead of just +5?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2016, 10:33:41 am »
0

You're playing an action, that should require an action point to do so. At the same time, you're playing a Treasure, why do you have to spend an action point?

What? You don't have to spend an Action to play Crown in your Buy phase.

I know; I'm just saying it seems awkward and confusing. You can play an action without spending an action point. And earlier in that same turn, you maybe had to spend an action point to play a treasure.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2016, 10:37:38 am »
+2

Too bad the instructions aren't the other way around. If they were, you could Crown a Horn of Plenty, gain a Villa, and then Crown that with the same play of Crown.

Is the start of turn, part of your action phase? I. e., if you prince a Crown, does it do anything?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2016, 10:38:16 am »
+1

It may be awkward and confusing on paper (I'd disagree), but I never saw it be a problem in-person.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2016, 10:39:38 am »
0

I thought Black Market explicitly didn't give you another Buy phase, but rather a one-time opportunity to buy a card and a "+1 Buy" for good measure.

Or have I got that backwards?

It does NOT give you a buy phase, and that's the whole point. It is still your action phase while resolving Black Market, which means then when you play Crown, you are playing it in your action phase, so you choose another action from your hand and play it twice.
Oh right, sorry, yeah that makes sense.  I see how that's an issue.  I guess I've always kinda seen (though I knew that strictly it wasn't the case) the Black Market thing as setting up like a whole new "Black Market Phase", which is neither your Action phase nor your Buy phase.  Of course even if that were the rule, it wouldn't fix the Storyteller interaction.
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M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (1-1, 50%): 42 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2016, 10:40:40 am »
+2

Too bad the instructions aren't the other way around. If they were, you could Crown a Horn of Plenty, gain a Villa, and then Crown that with the same play of Crown.

Is the start of turn, part of your action phase? I. e., if you prince a Crown, does it do anything?

Yes, it's already your Action phase during start-of-turn effects.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2016, 10:48:54 am »
0

I thought Black Market explicitly didn't give you another Buy phase, but rather a one-time opportunity to buy a card and a "+1 Buy" for good measure.

Or have I got that backwards?

It does NOT give you a buy phase, and that's the whole point. It is still your action phase while resolving Black Market, which means then when you play Crown, you are playing it in your action phase, so you choose another action from your hand and play it twice.

Wow, so you can play Tactician with Crown while having a Black Market effect for a free +10 Cards next turn. That's wicked good.

Not sure what you mean.... how is playing Tactician during the Black Market effect different than playing it right after? And how would you use that to get +10 cards instead of just +5?

Oh, right. I didn't think that whole +10 cards thing through. Playing tactician during Black market could be useful if there is no +Actions on the board though besides Tactician.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2016, 10:51:38 am »
+2

It works if you buy a Villa from the Black Market after playing the Tactician.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2016, 11:09:26 am »
0

It works if you buy a Villa from the Black Market after playing the Tactician.

I thought of this, but it doesn't work with the Crown case discussed.  Play Black Market, play Crown, play Tactician_1, discard hand.  Continue resolving Crown, play Tactician_2; discard nothing so do not draw +5 next turn..  Continue resolving Black Market, buy Villa.  Tactician_2 is already resolved by this point.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2016, 11:12:01 am »
+3

Obviously the Villa draws a Lost City, which draws another Tactician.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2016, 11:16:38 am »
+9

You're playing an action, that should require an action point to do so. At the same time, you're playing a Treasure, why do you have to spend an action point?

What? You don't have to spend an Action to play Crown in your Buy phase.

I know; I'm just saying it seems awkward and confusing. You can play an action without spending an action point. And earlier in that same turn, you maybe had to spend an action point to play a treasure.

You are thinking about this backwards. It does not "cost" an Action to play an Action card, and it never has. If it did, it would cost 3 Actions to Throne Room a Smithy. All the Action type intrinsically means is that you may spend an Action during your Action phase to play that card (whenever you're not actively resolving any effects). Crown is an Action card, so you may spend an Action during your Action phase to play Crown. You may not spend an Action during your Action phase to play a Gold or a Duchy, because those cards do not have the Action type.

All the Treasure type intrinsically means is that you may play that card during the first portion of your Buy phase (before buying anything or paying off Debt); it doesn't cost any resources to do so. Crown is a Treasure card, so you may play it during that first portion of your Buy phase. Actions never enter into it. You may not play Smithy or Curse during your Buy phase, because those cards do not have the Treasure type.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 11:18:24 am by LastFootnote »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2016, 11:18:45 am »
+1

Obviously the Villa draws a Lost City, which draws another Tactician.

Right, and.. still has nothing to do with Crown :)  Also, Villa doesn't draw cards, so you need a +1 Card token on it there.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2016, 11:44:07 am »
+1

Obviously the Villa draws a Lost City, which draws another Tactician.

Right, and.. still has nothing to do with Crown :)  Also, Villa doesn't draw cards, so you need a +1 Card token on it there.

Which you can't do if you're buying Villa from the Black Market.

On the other hand, if you have a hand of Storyteller, Crown, Tactician, Copper, Estate, say, then you can play Storyteller, play Copper, play Crown on Tactician, discarding Estate the first time and nothing the second, then draw 2 cards from Storyteller to let you continue your go *and* get the +5 Cards +1 Action +1 Buy from Tactician next turn.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2016, 11:51:03 am »
0

You're playing an action, that should require an action point to do so. At the same time, you're playing a Treasure, why do you have to spend an action point?

What? You don't have to spend an Action to play Crown in your Buy phase.

I know; I'm just saying it seems awkward and confusing. You can play an action without spending an action point. And earlier in that same turn, you maybe had to spend an action point to play a treasure.

You are thinking about this backwards. It does not "cost" an Action to play an Action card, and it never has. If it did, it would cost 3 Actions to Throne Room a Smithy. All the Action type intrinsically means is that you may spend an Action during your Action phase to play that card (whenever you're not actively resolving any effects). Crown is an Action card, so you may spend an Action during your Action phase to play Crown. You may not spend an Action during your Action phase to play a Gold or a Duchy, because those cards do not have the Action type.

All the Treasure type intrinsically means is that you may play that card during the first portion of your Buy phase (before buying anything or paying off Debt); it doesn't cost any resources to do so. Crown is a Treasure card, so you may play it during that first portion of your Buy phase. Actions never enter into it. You may not play Smithy or Curse during your Buy phase, because those cards do not have the Treasure type.

Strangely, I'm not sure what the Victory type intrinsically means. I guess it means you need to follow its instructions/add its VP to your total at the end of the game, but that doesn't even necessarily apply to Overgrown Estate.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2016, 11:58:02 am »
0

My first impression is that Crown is weak.  Playing a treasure twice isn't nearly as good as playing an action twice.  Throning an action effectively gives you +1 Action, but Throning a treasure doesn't give anything of the sort.  If only standard treasures are available, Crown can never be better than a gold during your Buy phase.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2016, 11:59:53 am »
+1

You're playing an action, that should require an action point to do so. At the same time, you're playing a Treasure, why do you have to spend an action point?

What? You don't have to spend an Action to play Crown in your Buy phase.

I know; I'm just saying it seems awkward and confusing. You can play an action without spending an action point. And earlier in that same turn, you maybe had to spend an action point to play a treasure.

You are thinking about this backwards. It does not "cost" an Action to play an Action card, and it never has. If it did, it would cost 3 Actions to Throne Room a Smithy. All the Action type intrinsically means is that you may spend an Action during your Action phase to play that card (whenever you're not actively resolving any effects). Crown is an Action card, so you may spend an Action during your Action phase to play Crown. You may not spend an Action during your Action phase to play a Gold or a Duchy, because those cards do not have the Action type.

All the Treasure type intrinsically means is that you may play that card during the first portion of your Buy phase (before buying anything or paying off Debt); it doesn't cost any resources to do so. Crown is a Treasure card, so you may play it during that first portion of your Buy phase. Actions never enter into it. You may not play Smithy or Curse during your Buy phase, because those cards do not have the Treasure type.

Strangely, I'm not sure what the Victory type intrinsically means. I guess it means you need to follow its instructions/add its VP to your total at the end of the game, but that doesn't even necessarily apply to Overgrown Estate.

Most types don't intrinsically mean anything... Knight, Attack, Reaction, and Shelter don't have any rule associations. Duration only has 1 small rule. Looter only affects setup.

For victory, I actually don't know the answer. If an action card were released that had the 2VP symbol on it, like Nobles, but it were not a "victory" type, would you still count it at the end of the game? Or does "Victory" allow it to be counted?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2016, 12:02:03 pm »
+3

Strangely, I'm not sure what the Victory type intrinsically means. I guess it means you need to follow its instructions/add its VP to your total at the end of the game, but that doesn't even necessarily apply to Overgrown Estate.

Well two things. First, I think it's nice for all cards to have at least one type. It's just aesthetically pleasing. Second, colors are associated with types in Dominion, and it's convenient for Victory cards to be a specific color for ease of separation and counting at the end of the game. It's the same reason that Reactions have their own type: so that they can be blue and jump out at you in your hand.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 12:03:28 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2016, 12:03:03 pm »
+2

I'm just glad the Action-y part is over the white Action color, and the Treasure-y part is over the yellow Treasure color.

This is in stark contrast to some other cards.

*glares at Overgrown Estate*
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2016, 12:04:48 pm »
+2

On the other hand, if you have a hand of Storyteller, Crown, Tactician, Copper, Estate, say, then you can play Storyteller, play Copper, play Crown on Tactician, discarding Estate the first time and nothing the second, then draw 2 cards from Storyteller to let you continue your go *and* get the +5 Cards +1 Action +1 Buy from Tactician next turn.
You're not being ambitious enough.  Aim for a hand of Storyteller, Crown, Kings Court, Golem and Platinum with your '+1 card' token on Tactician and no action cards other than six Tacticians in your deck.  Play Storyteller, play Platinum, play Crown on KC, play Golem three times, playing two Tacticians each time, each one drawing a card to discard.  Then draw 6 cards from Storyteller to let you continue your turn and get +30 Cards, +6 Actions and +6 Buys from your Tacticians next turn.  :)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2016, 12:23:14 pm »
0

Strangely, I'm not sure what the Victory type intrinsically means. I guess it means you need to follow its instructions/add its VP to your total at the end of the game, but that doesn't even necessarily apply to Overgrown Estate.

Most types in Dominion don't intrinsically mean anything. They are just ways to refer to a class of cards.
The exceptions are Action, Treasure and Duration. Maybe also Looter since it has a set-up rule referring to another pile of cards.
Victory, Curse, Prize, Knight, Ruins, Shelter and Traveller cards also have special set-up rules, but then again so do certain cards.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2016, 12:33:19 pm »
+6

My first impression is that Crown is weak.  Playing a treasure twice isn't nearly as good as playing an action twice.  Throning an action effectively gives you +1 Action, but Throning a treasure doesn't give anything of the sort.  If only standard treasures are available, Crown can never be better than a gold during your Buy phase.

At the very least, throning a treasure is a decent consolation prize if you draw this dead. Also there are plenty of treasures that can be better than gold to throne so limiting the conversation to only standard treasures isn't so productive. But even if you do, a $5 gold that sometimes is only a silver or copper isn't terrible. 5 might be a bit steep for either the action or treasure part, but you have to charge extra for the flexibility. It won't be a powerhouse but I bet it sees plenty of play still.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 12:38:04 pm by jonts26 »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2016, 12:34:46 pm »
0

I know most types don't intrinsically mean anything (most aren't even used in an "average" game). Action and Treasure do, so it got me thinking more about Victory specifically because it's the other most common type, and it's used in every game. If it weren't for Overgrown Estate, it would seem like Victory at least means "this might be worth points for you."
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2016, 12:48:03 pm »
0

You're not being ambitious enough. [...]Then draw 6 cards from Storyteller to let you continue your turn and get +30 Cards, +6 Actions and +6 Buys from your Tacticians next turn.  :)
You're not being ambitious enough, either.

People have already discussed how to get infinite actions and infinite buy using Bonfire/Villa shenanigans. It has to be possible to parlay that into an infinite-Tactician turn.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2016, 12:54:22 pm »
+2

Crown has forced me - and I suspect many others - to reappraise how some very fundamental aspects of Dominion work. Which may be part of the confusion.

I'd always thought that Action cards had an "on-play-as-action" trigger that did did something, and Treasures had an "on-play-as-treasure" trigger that did something. In your Action phase, for so long as you still had action quota available, you could play a card from your hand as an Action, if it had the Action type. Then, in your Buy phase, you could play as many cards from your hand as you liked as Treasures, if they had the Treasure type.

By this way of thinking, when you play Black Market or Storyteller, you then get to play some cards as Treasures.

So I - and I suspect many others - assumed that if we ever saw an Action-Treasure card, it would have an on-play-as-action trigger which did one thing and an on-play-as-treasure trigger which did something different. If you played it on Black Market or Storyteller, it would on-play-as-treasure.


But it turns out it's not really like that at all. Instead, cards have a single "on-play" trigger. You never play a card as an Action or as a Treasure, and when you play Crown what matters is whether you're in the Action or the Buy phase. We live and learn.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2016, 12:55:51 pm »
+6

Well, I am totally claiming that I called this one, a year and a half ago. *bragging rights*

Quote
Magic Mirror
Types: Action - Treasure
Cost: 4$
Play this as if it were an Action or Treasure card in your play area that you choose.
This is that card until either leaves play.

(same idea, different implementation)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2016, 01:25:31 pm »
0

Oh hey, I semi-accurately predicted this card's name!

Laurel Crown
$6 - Action-Treasure
Worth $2
[When you play this,] +2 cards

I'm actually a tiny bit disappointed by Crown because we already have Throne Room and Counterfeit.  This is perfectly fine still, but it feels more like old ground than I'd expected the Action-Treasure to be.  Granted, my guess was just vanilla bonuses anyway.

I think I'd probably pick up at least one Counterfeit before this, for the trashing.  I don't know how often I'd pick this over other key $5s though... Probably if I would buy this, I would also have been happy with TR at $5.  Being able to double Treasures is just icing.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2016, 01:28:12 pm »
0

I'm actually a tiny bit disappointed by Crown because we already have Throne Room and Counterfeit.

This is ridiculously flexible, though, and has all those shenanigans with Storyteller and Black Market.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2016, 01:34:22 pm »
+3

Yeah, I don't want to be in a game with this and Black Market.

I sure as hell don't want to be the guy programming the edge cases.  And yet I suspect Stef and SCSN already have it done.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2016, 01:36:19 pm »
0

(same idea, different implementation)
Subtle differences that have an oh-so-huge effect.

Yours would allow Actions to be re-played during the Buy phase. You could also play a Prince, not set it aside, then use Magic Mirrors as cheap Princes for the rest of the turn. And you might be able to play it as a Traveller then upgrade it.

Conversely, you couldn't replay a self-trasher like Feast.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2016, 01:38:14 pm »
0

Yeah, I don't want to be in a game with this and Black Market.

I sure as hell don't want to be the guy programming the edge cases.  And yet I suspect Stef and SCSN already have it done.

My secret sources tell me they do, along with Villa.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2016, 01:38:59 pm »
0

At first, I thought this had a cost-comparison/balance issue with Counterfeit (Throne Room=4, Counterfeit=5...Crown=5?), but I guess it's pretty major that Crown itself doesn't give +Buy.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2016, 01:43:54 pm »
0

I'm actually a tiny bit disappointed by Crown because we already have Throne Room and Counterfeit.

This is ridiculously flexible, though, and has all those shenanigans with Storyteller and Black Market.

Yeah, but I think the treasure doubling will usually be just a consolation prize.  The Storyteller/Black Market shenanigans don't sound all that useful to me.  Yeah you can resolve more action cards while in the middle of resolving another... but how does that help me?  You get a virtual +1 action out of it, I guess.  Maybe there are some special scenarios where it does something crazy.  But mostly it's not all that different from playing Crown separately.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2016, 01:44:49 pm »
+2

At first, I thought this had a cost-comparison/balance issue with Counterfeit (Throne Room=4, Counterfeit=5...Crown=5?), but I guess it's pretty major that Crown itself doesn't give +Buy.

It's bigger that Crown doesn't help you trash Copper.

Edit: typooooo
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 07:16:13 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2016, 01:48:25 pm »
+1

Yeah, but I think the treasure doubling will usually be just a consolation prize.

I beg to differ.  I think doubling Treasure Troves, Ventures or Capitals will be strategies unto their own.  Also, it's cheaper to buy a Crown than a second Platinum.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2016, 01:49:55 pm »
+2

Yeah, I don't want to be in a game with this and Black Market.

I sure as hell don't want to be the guy programming the edge cases.  And yet I suspect Stef and SCSN already have it done.

My secret sources tell me they do, along with Villa.

I really want to beta test their program.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2016, 01:50:53 pm »
0

Yeah, I don't want to be in a game with this and Black Market.

I sure as hell don't want to be the guy programming the edge cases.  And yet I suspect Stef and SCSN already have it done.

My secret sources tell me they do, along with Villa.

I really want to beta test their program.

Join the club.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2016, 01:53:33 pm »
0

Yeah, but I think the treasure doubling will usually be just a consolation prize.

I beg to differ.  I think doubling Treasure Troves, Ventures or Capitals will be strategies unto their own.  Also, it's cheaper to buy a Crown than a second Platinum.

There are more kingdom actions than treasures.  Yeah there will be times when you really want to double a treasure, but I still think doubling actions will be the priority most often.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2016, 01:57:41 pm »
+3

Interesting fact:  Unlike any other Throne Room variant (including Counterfeit), Crown-in-buy-phase gives the exact same effect whether you Crown a Crown or play two Crowns separately.

Also, Crown+Capital is nuts, even better than doubling Platinum.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2016, 02:04:54 pm »
+2

Interesting fact:  Unlike any other Throne Room variant (including Counterfeit), Crown-in-buy-phase gives the exact same effect whether you Crown a Crown or play two Crowns separately.

Also, Crown+Capital is nuts, even better than doubling Platinum.

Here's an interesting question, if you Crown a treasure, can you call back Royal Carriage to play the Crown again and double another treasure?  My hunch is that you should be able to.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2016, 02:05:37 pm »
0

I love this idea. A Throne Room which you almost never draw dead. I also like the "you may" wording, which fixes probably unwanted effects with Venture and Golem.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 04:36:43 pm by King Leon »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2016, 02:05:47 pm »
+2

Interesting fact:  Unlike any other Throne Room variant (including Counterfeit), Crown-in-buy-phase gives the exact same effect whether you Crown a Crown or play two Crowns separately.
Not true.

Crown on Crown then Bank and Bank gives you $2 more to spend than Crown on Bank then Crown on Bank.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2016, 02:07:09 pm »
0

There are more kingdom actions than treasures.  Yeah there will be times when you really want to double a treasure, but I still think doubling actions will be the priority most often.
More Actions than Treasures in the game doesn't mean more Actions than Treasures in the kingdom you're playing, which in turn doesn't mean more Actions than Treasures in your deck.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2016, 02:08:53 pm »
+6

Here's an interesting question, if you Crown a treasure, can you call back Royal Carriage to play the Crown again and double another treasure?  My hunch is that you should be able to.

You can.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2016, 02:50:08 pm »
0

There are more kingdom actions than treasures.  Yeah there will be times when you really want to double a treasure, but I still think doubling actions will be the priority most often.
More Actions than Treasures in the game doesn't mean more Actions than Treasures in the kingdom you're playing, which in turn doesn't mean more Actions than Treasures in your deck.

That's why I've said "usually" and "more often".
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2016, 02:56:48 pm »
+4

I love the art on this one, the lighting on the velvet pillow is very well done.

I also like the concept; you know all those times when you drew a Throne Room dead?
Well, no more of that! As long as you have some stray Treasures.

And obviously, it's better if you have valuable Treasures so it isn't just an extra Copper but a Silver+.

It somehow seems good for hybrid strategies and I like hybrid strategies that aren't clear cut engines nor clear cut money games.
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King Leon

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2016, 04:48:02 pm »
0

Crown works well in Terminal Draw Big Money. It can crown your Wharf/Envoy/Council Room. But when you draw Crown without any action card or by the effect of a terminal action card, you can still use it as a cheap Gold or an expensive Silver.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2016, 04:59:30 pm »
+7

Yeah, I don't want to be in a game with this and Black Market.

I sure as hell don't want to be the guy programming the edge cases.  And yet I suspect Stef and SCSN already have it done.

My secret sources tell me they do, along with Villa.

I really want to beta test their program.

Join the club.
He wants to, didn't he just say that?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2016, 11:30:44 am »
+2

Hey ADK, post something in this thread so I can give you a +1!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2016, 01:01:28 pm »
0

Clarification question. When you play Crown in your action phase, does it still count as a treasure that can be topdecked with Mandarin?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2016, 01:06:23 pm »
+3

Clarification question. When you play Crown in your action phase, does it still count as a treasure that can be topdecked with Mandarin?

Yes.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2016, 01:07:15 pm »
+2

Clarification question. When you play Crown in your action phase, does it still count as a treasure that can be topdecked with Mandarin?

It's still a treasure, regardless of how you put it in play. So yes.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2016, 01:08:28 pm »
+7

Clarification question. When you play Crown in your action phase, does it still count as a treasure that can be topdecked with Mandarin?
Yes.  This question cropped up somewhere else (can't remember where).  The important thing to remember is that Crown is always an Action and a Treasure as far as card types are concerned.  Its effect changes depending on the phase it's played in, but its type does not (though I think a lot of players are going to make the error of thinking in terms of playing it 'as a Treasure' or 'as an Action').

OK, so two people have beaten me to the answer, but only because I went for a longer explanation!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2016, 01:11:27 pm »
+9

OK, so two people have beaten me to the answer, but only because I went for a longer explanation!

Brevity is the soul of not getting ninja'd on an Internet forum.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2016, 01:12:24 pm »
+1

OK, so two people have beaten me to the answer, but only because I went for a longer explanation!

Brevity is the soul of not getting ninja'd on an Internet forum.

Indeed.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2016, 01:26:26 pm »
+14

Hey ADK, post something in this thread so I can give you a +1!

Dominion? Isn't that just a boring version of Ascension?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2016, 02:07:55 pm »
+8

The game i fell in love with is gone...

Oh no, what happened to your cards? Did someone steal them?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2016, 05:26:47 pm »
+2

The game i fell in love with is gone...

Oh no, what happened to your cards? Did someone steal them?

I'll explain it, and you may think of it as a joke, making it funnier. Of all the previews, Landmarks, Enchantress and Events were the only ones i like. This is not the game i fell in love with anymore. Apparently we reached the point where rules confusion has been accepted as a necessity, and even though Donald more or less insists on it, i simply think that's not the case. I made a pseudo-Treasure-Action years ago, and still think it's the better solution to use the Reaction type over Treasure. And could he really not make Debt without introducing a third currency? Seriously? This is the man who made Treasury, Stash, and many other cards that found clever solutions to avoid unnecessary complexity. Now i feel he doesn't bother anymore, and Dominion approaches becoming one of those boardgames that simply hardcode stuff because it's to weird to get right on your own. I'm very disappointed. And i'm fine if you disagree with me, but if nothing unexpected happens, Empires will be the first Dominion set i skip.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2016, 05:32:36 pm »
+3

The game i fell in love with is gone...

Oh no, what happened to your cards? Did someone steal them?

I'll explain it, and you may think of it as a joke, making it funnier. Of all the previews, Landmarks, Enchantress and Events were the only ones i like. This is not the game i fell in love with anymore. Apparently we reached the point where rules confusion has been accepted as a necessity, and even though Donald more or less insists on it, i simply think that's not the case. I made a pseudo-Treasure-Action years ago, and still think it's the better solution to use the Reaction type over Treasure. And could he really not make Debt without introducing a third currency? Seriously? This is the man who made Treasury, Stash, and many other cards that found clever solutions to avoid unnecessary complexity. Now i feel he doesn't bother anymore, and Dominion approaches becoming one of those boardgames that simply hardcode stuff because it's to weird to get right on your own. I'm very disappointed. And i'm fine if you disagree with me, but if nothing unexpected happens, Empires will be the first Dominion set i skip.

Seems a little arbitrary where the 'unnecessarily complex' line is drawn.  I guess I can see where you're coming from, though.  Back when I played Magic in high school, I got a little sick of a new mechanic being introduced every expansion, and I stopped playing around Alliances/Mirage/Visions.

I think a lot of these new cards in Empires look really creative, though.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2016, 05:37:34 pm »
+6

Dominion has evolved. That's for sure. Is it a good thing or a bad thing remains to be seen.

As for the complexity of Crown, with the exception of edge cases, the card is straightforward. I think most new players would get it right away.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 05:39:02 pm by Beyond Awesome »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2016, 05:48:22 pm »
+1

The game i fell in love with is gone...

Oh no, what happened to your cards? Did someone steal them?

I'll explain it, and you may think of it as a joke, making it funnier. Of all the previews, Landmarks, Enchantress and Events were the only ones i like. This is not the game i fell in love with anymore. Apparently we reached the point where rules confusion has been accepted as a necessity, and even though Donald more or less insists on it, i simply think that's not the case. I made a pseudo-Treasure-Action years ago, and still think it's the better solution to use the Reaction type over Treasure. And could he really not make Debt without introducing a third currency? Seriously? This is the man who made Treasury, Stash, and many other cards that found clever solutions to avoid unnecessary complexity. Now i feel he doesn't bother anymore, and Dominion approaches becoming one of those boardgames that simply hardcode stuff because it's to weird to get right on your own. I'm very disappointed. And i'm fine if you disagree with me, but if nothing unexpected happens, Empires will be the first Dominion set i skip.

Obviously we'll see what Donald says in the rules, but so far it's easiest for me to not think of debt as a new "currency." However, for the purposes of cards-that-care-about-card-cost, it needs a way to be handled. And the way that makes the most sense is debt=debt, and not debt=coins.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2016, 05:56:47 pm »
+3

And could he really not make Debt without introducing a third currency?

I don't want to get into too much Secret History stuff, but Debt went through a lot of different versions and this was in fact the one that worked the best.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2016, 06:02:05 pm »
+3

Guys.

Crowning Capital is a thing.

It's a really good thing.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2016, 06:31:00 pm »
0

Seems a little arbitrary where the 'unnecessarily complex' line is drawn.
It's all subjective, sure.

This expansion has a lot of awesome stuff in it, but it's also the first (I arrived around the same time as Hinterlands) new thing I've encountered where some bits have made me go "hmm...".

I'll try all of Empires - those bits might turn out to be awesome as well - but I sense we're in danger of reaching a point where Dominion is turning into Magic: The Gathering. For now, I very much like the fact it isn't M:tG.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2016, 06:39:03 pm »
0

Sometimes, I feel like Dominion has become as complex as Magic.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2016, 07:02:36 pm »
+5

And could he really not make Debt without introducing a third currency?

I don't want to get into too much Secret History stuff, but Debt went through a lot of different versions and this was in fact the one that worked the best.

Debt seems simple enough to me in general.  I mean, it doesn't seem any more complex to me than Seasons.  Also, I don't think it should be thought of as a third currency other than for cost comparisons.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2016, 09:45:48 pm »
+13

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2016, 09:48:34 pm »
0

Dominion is naturally going to get more complicated as more cards are added. It's just logical that it will happen. There's only so much you can do with certain things before you'd have to move on and try something else. Debt is an interesting mechanic, so are piles with different cards. Tons you can do with those.

I want to see a new set like Dark Ages, with tons of trashing mechanics. Man, that would be fun. Still my favorite set.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2016, 10:02:19 pm »
+3

And could he really not make Debt without introducing a third currency?

I don't want to get into too much Secret History stuff, but Debt went through a lot of different versions and this was in fact the one that worked the best.

Debt seems simple enough to me in general.  I mean, it doesn't seem any more complex to me than Seasons.  Also, I don't think it should be thought of as a third currency other than for cost comparisons.

You are misunderstanding Asper's complaint, I think. He is not saying that Debt is a complex concept, but that he feels like Donald in the past managed to implement new concepts (from a gameplay perspective) without introducing new rules. And debt (he says) feels like something he should have been able to do similarly, yet he introduced tokens instead. Which makes him sad.

I don't remember if you said why you left the forums, Asper, but I feel like you might just be getting burnt out from the game :)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2016, 10:11:06 pm »
0

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.

I agree. I think the modifying tokens are the most complex thing introduced to the game, at least IRL.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2016, 10:49:59 pm »
+1

And could he really not make Debt without introducing a third currency?

I don't want to get into too much Secret History stuff, but Debt went through a lot of different versions and this was in fact the one that worked the best.

Debt seems simple enough to me in general.  I mean, it doesn't seem any more complex to me than Seasons.  Also, I don't think it should be thought of as a third currency other than for cost comparisons.

You are misunderstanding Asper's complaint, I think. He is not saying that Debt is a complex concept, but that he feels like Donald in the past managed to implement new concepts (from a gameplay perspective) without introducing new rules. And debt (he says) feels like something he should have been able to do similarly, yet he introduced tokens instead. Which makes him sad.

I don't remember if you said why you left the forums, Asper, but I feel like you might just be getting burnt out from the game :)

If that's the case, I guess I don't understand why this counts as "introducing new rules" and stuff like Adventures tokens and Travellers did not.  Or if those do too, I don't understand why Debt is crossing a line.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to put down Asper here.  I'm just trying to understand.  I'd love to hear more of Asper's thoughts.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2016, 10:57:32 pm »
+2

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.

I agree. I think the modifying tokens are the most complex thing introduced to the game, at least IRL.

Still doesn't compare to games with Mission, Outpost and Possession at the same time.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2016, 11:22:23 pm »
0

If that's the case, I guess I don't understand why this counts as "introducing new rules" and stuff like Adventures tokens and Travellers did not.  Or if those do too, I don't understand why Debt is crossing a line.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to put down Asper here.  I'm just trying to understand.  I'd love to hear more of Asper's thoughts.

Well, Travellers and Adventures tokens were obviously impossible to do with the preexisting ruleset, which I guess makes them different to Debt, in that there might have been a way, but uh I should probably do the smart thing and stop speaking for other people.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #83 on: May 13, 2016, 11:22:33 pm »
0

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.

I agree. I think the modifying tokens are the most complex thing introduced to the game, at least IRL.

Still doesn't compare to games with Mission, Outpost and Possession at the same time.

Ah! Which one comes first!?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #84 on: May 13, 2016, 11:24:19 pm »
+1

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.

I agree. I think the modifying tokens are the most complex thing introduced to the game, at least IRL.

Still doesn't compare to games with Mission, Outpost and Possession at the same time.

Ah! Which one comes first!?

Outpost/Mission (you choose, but if you choose Mission first, the Outpost turn can't happen), then Possession.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #85 on: May 13, 2016, 11:29:29 pm »
0

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.

I agree. I think the modifying tokens are the most complex thing introduced to the game, at least IRL.

Still doesn't compare to games with Mission, Outpost and Possession at the same time.

Ah! Which one comes first!?

Outpost/Mission (you choose, but if you choose Mission first, the Outpost turn can't happen), then Possession.

That wasn't so bad. Any reason you'd take the Mission turn first over Outpost?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #86 on: May 13, 2016, 11:33:10 pm »
+2

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.

I agree. I think the modifying tokens are the most complex thing introduced to the game, at least IRL.

Still doesn't compare to games with Mission, Outpost and Possession at the same time.

Ah! Which one comes first!?

Outpost/Mission (you choose, but if you choose Mission first, the Outpost turn can't happen), then Possession.

That wasn't so bad. Any reason you'd take the Mission turn first over Outpost?

You misclicked. I don't know why else.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #87 on: May 13, 2016, 11:43:20 pm »
0

You misclicked. I don't know why else.

I have a reason why you'd do it.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2016, 12:16:22 am »
+2

Sometimes, I feel like Dominion has become as complex as Magic.

But is Dominion Turing complete yet? :P

http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2016, 12:20:57 am »
+1

Sometimes, I feel like Dominion has become as complex as Magic.

But is Dominion Turing complete yet? :P

http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/

If I could even understand what makes something Turing or not, I could potentially try to build it. :)

edit: I have more of an understanding of a Turing Complete machine now. Magic is 10000x more complex than Dominion, and I do not think you could build such a machine with Dominion. I'll make a thread about it anyways.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 12:44:19 am by Seprix »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #90 on: May 14, 2016, 12:51:30 am »
+7

I played Empires with people new to Dominion. Very little real-life confusion. 90% of the rules questions/"confusion" you see on f.ds is divorced from reality and what you will actually see when playing (and that goes for all of Dominion, not just Empires).
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #91 on: May 14, 2016, 04:31:30 am »
+2

To be fair, as a teacher I had used to say:

"Any questions?"
[no answer]
"That means you didn't understand a thing."

(Not disagreeing with your overall point, rather with your specific example. Why am I saying anything then? Because no true f.dser would miss a chance to be pedantic)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2016, 04:44:07 am »
+3

To be fair, as a teacher I had used to say:

"Any questions?"
[no answer]
"That means you didn't understand a thing."

(Not disagreeing with your overall point, rather with your specific example. Why am I saying anything then? Because no true f.dser would miss a chance to be pedantic)
I see; any questions or no questions, both mean the cards are unacceptably complex. They hate you if you're clever, and they despise a fool.

He didn't say there were no questions. Man. They just weren't questions about Black Market or what have you. It's not there on the table; it's not on their minds.

The #1 question for Debt was "can you win if you have Debt."
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #93 on: May 14, 2016, 10:13:48 am »
+4

My most recent rules "question" was "Wait - I have a Native Village in hand. That means I have to double-check whether or not Trade Route gives me cash even if I have no cards left in hand to trash, before I decide which of my cards to put back first after being attacked with Rabble."

Last Adventures game I played, someone needed to know what happened if they Inherited from Port.

It probably doesn't help that 90% of the people I game with are mathematicians and/or software engineers...

(PS: And one of them wrote that article proving M:tG is Turing Complete.)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 10:14:51 am by crj »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #94 on: May 14, 2016, 11:02:09 am »
+2

All I know is I would be skeptical to introduce this expansion to players that are relatively new to Dominion (I mean, just Villa is incredibly intense). This is really looking like an expansion for the hardcore Dominion fans. At this stage of Dominion's life, I think that's fine.

I do feel like Crown was more about pushing boundaries with a Treasure-Action card coming into existence, to "prove it can be done", rather than it really being an impactful card in its own right. Similar story with Caravan Guard.

Still excited to see the rest of this set.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #95 on: May 14, 2016, 01:00:16 pm »
+9

I do feel like Crown was more about pushing boundaries with a Treasure-Action card coming into existence, to "prove it can be done", rather than it really being an impactful card in its own right. Similar story with Caravan Guard.
Nope, Crown started as an Action, and then didn't want to be drawn dead.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #96 on: May 14, 2016, 01:58:07 pm »
+2

I'm happy to have people decide for themselves once they see the set, and interested in what they have to say. And for sure the later expansions are more complex than the earlier ones.

I don't think there's any way though that Empires crosses some complexity line that Adventures did not.
Well, we're at the point where the only people buying the newest expansions are pretty serious players.
And those players often like the added complexities and uniqueness of the newer cards/events/landmarks, etc..

I'm all for innovation, I like being surprised like this. I look forward to totally underestimating a card (Jack did this to me), or totally overestimating some (Pirate Ship). Man, I don't want to see many more vanilla stuff, it's good for balance and to make actual playable combos, but I like the Counting Houses and Coppersmiths of the Dominion world; at least they bring something unique to the game.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #97 on: May 14, 2016, 02:39:04 pm »
0

My concern was for debt being different than coins when you compared costs. I mean, i remodel a 8-debt card, now i can gain a 0$-2$, or a $2+8-debt-card, or a 4-debt-card. It's just weird to have "you may underpay" as a whole new currency. I'm not saying i have a better solution at hand immediately here (i tried it as an overpay variant), just that i think there must be one, and that i would have expected Donald to find it.

For Crown, i think the better solution is a Reaction that triggers at the start of your buy phase, as mentioned before.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #98 on: May 14, 2016, 02:49:06 pm »
+1

For Crown, i think the better solution is a Reaction that triggers at the start of your buy phase, as mentioned before.
What's wrong with an action-treasure?

The main complaint I've heard is "It's too hard to remember whether you played it as an action or a treasure" Dominion has a lot of memory. I don't think duration are stupid because you have to leave them out. Mining village isn't stupid because if you trash it you can forget how many actions you have. Seasons is a great expansion even though it's easy to forget to move the marker.
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« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 02:57:05 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #99 on: May 14, 2016, 03:01:19 pm »
+5

I think Crown would be more complicated as a reaction. I get what you're saying, but it works just fine on its current form.

Also, by making Debt is own cost, it saves putting extra text on cards. You see the Debt symbol, and barring edge cases, you understand, you pay what you can now and pay off the rest later.

I played two Empires games. Both Debt and Crown were pretty straightforward in terms of how they played out.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #100 on: May 14, 2016, 03:09:34 pm »
+1

I think Crown would be more complicated as a reaction.
How about "Immediately after resolving an Action or Treasure you may discard this from your hand. If you do, play that Action or Treasure again."?

That's not the same card - it behaves differently in several respects - but it's similar and  doesn't feel complicated to me.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #101 on: May 14, 2016, 03:35:26 pm »
0

I think Crown would be more complicated as a reaction.
How about "Immediately after resolving an Action or Treasure you may discard this from your hand. If you do, play that Action or Treasure again."?

That's not the same card - it behaves differently in several respects - but it's similar and  doesn't feel complicated to me.

"At the start of your buy phase, you may discard this. If you do, you may play a Treasure card from your hand twice."
Possibly you'd need to set it aside instead, because, yay, now we have "Return to your action phase"...

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #102 on: May 14, 2016, 03:41:41 pm »
+6

I think Crown would be more complicated as a reaction.
How about "Immediately after resolving an Action or Treasure you may discard this from your hand. If you do, play that Action or Treasure again."?

That's not the same card - it behaves differently in several respects - but it's similar and  doesn't feel complicated to me.

"At the start of your buy phase, you may discard this. If you do, you may play a Treasure card from your hand twice."
But why is this superior to what we have now?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #103 on: May 14, 2016, 03:58:41 pm »
+5

I think Crown would be more complicated as a reaction.
How about "Immediately after resolving an Action or Treasure you may discard this from your hand. If you do, play that Action or Treasure again."?

That's not the same card - it behaves differently in several respects - but it's similar and  doesn't feel complicated to me.

It just makes more sense to have Crown be in play, reminding you that you played the Action or Treasure card twice. I am thoroughly unconvinced that a Reaction would be simpler.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #104 on: May 14, 2016, 09:20:26 pm »
+2

Meh. I'm convinced Reaction's better. And i think that not doing something is also an option. I'm not sure we needed Crown. However, i will admit that, thinking about it, the possibility to play a card either way is something that elevates this card beyond simply TR/Treasure-TR, two concepts we already have. And i guess making such a card a TR makes sure you can't use it as a single-card strategy, which was my card's main flaw. So i guess you get something original here, and it even makes sense.

Either way, i'm not the guy who's name is on the box, so i have nothing to say on the matter. I'm free to not like or buy it, just as everyone is free to not like or buy things i create. I mean, i wrote this knowing that nobody would agree with me, but if what feels like hundreds of people shout out how much they love everything, i can also say that, no sir, i don't like it. Everyone here should be able to take that. Donald knows how many people love his game. It's not like he'll be sad only because i don't like something he did. At least i hope he doesn't take it personally. Again, my worst critizism was that -from my opinion -Dominion was approaching normal boardgame expansion behaviour. Some time ago, someone used my quote "Donald X made me a design snob" as his signature. This describes what i expect from Donald, and i expected him to do something incredibly clever if he wanted something that worked like an Action-Treasure. Apart from making it a TR-variant to exclude a single-card strategy, Crown doesn't meet my expectations.

Also, to answer an implied question from earlier, Dominion has absolutely nothing to do with that i intend to leave the forums. I was melodramatic when i said it's not the game i love anymore. It's neither the other users. Me leaving, if you can actually say i left, is due to a few of my own projects, which i wanted to focus on. If everything goes right, some day, i may be in the position to have my own boardgame critizised by internet know-it-alls, too.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #105 on: May 14, 2016, 09:56:09 pm »
0

Meh. I'm convinced Reaction's better.

And I'm convinced you're wrong. Donald has designed plenty of games, I trust he knows what he is doing.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #106 on: May 14, 2016, 09:57:54 pm »
+12

Dominion's a pretty cool guy. Eh makes an action treasure and doesn't afraid of anything.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #107 on: May 14, 2016, 10:20:01 pm »
+3

Meh. I'm convinced Reaction's better.

And I'm convinced you're wrong. Donald has designed plenty of games, I trust he knows what he is doing.

There's an element of personal preference / opinion here; not straight fact. I am quite convinced that Donald knows for more about card design than I do; but in my personal opinion both Villa and Crown feel gimmicky and add complexity without much value. But that's just my opinion; and only based on knowing what they do; having not played with them.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #108 on: May 14, 2016, 10:34:07 pm »
+11

There's an element of personal preference / opinion here; not straight fact. I am quite convinced that Donald knows for more about card design than I do; but in my personal opinion both Villa and Crown feel gimmicky and add complexity without much value. But that's just my opinion; and only based on knowing what they do; having not played with them.
To me, Villa is that card that was some people's favorite Dominion card ever, that was nothing but endless good times; and Crown is that card people adored despite it mostly being Throne Room, that never caused any confusion whatsoever. And they were both novel, which people love.

I have no interest in making expansions that are all cards that already exist; no-one needs them. If those two adored cards that never messed up our games are too gimmicky or complex then I mean there's no possibility for making more expansions. I desperately need cards just like those cards, every time out, for there to be any point to the products.

The big take-away for me was not to do previews next time. It's work; it's stressful; and then people say "oh what if you combine this with Possession and Black Market, this expansion is too complex." Man.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #109 on: May 14, 2016, 10:45:46 pm »
+7

Please, Donald, don't stop because of me. I'm sorry and i'll shut up now. A lot of people here are excited, and you make an effort nobody could expect of you by doing all of this. I took that effort for granted and derailed this thing you are doing for all of us with my preferences. I'm genuinely sorry :(

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #110 on: May 14, 2016, 10:53:31 pm »
0

Dammit.  I wanted to make a joke, but it would have accidentally hinted at an Empires card name that hasn't been revealed yet.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #111 on: May 14, 2016, 11:10:24 pm »
+4

The big take-away for me was not to do previews next time. It's work; it's stressful; and then people say "oh what if you combine this with Possession and Black Market, this expansion is too complex." Man.

So far, I think the ratio of positive to negative feedback on the previews is something like 10-1 in favor.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #112 on: May 14, 2016, 11:19:17 pm »
+7

Please, Donald, don't stop because of me. I'm sorry and i'll shut up now. A lot of people here are excited, and you make an effort nobody could expect of you by doing all of this. I took that effort for granted and derailed this thing you are doing for all of us with my preferences. I'm genuinely sorry :(
Dude if it was just you I would just be blaming you, quietly in a corner.

I know there's like, what is there to talk about. The reddit thread for Landmarks is all about how they could do a better job wording Keep; that's what they found to talk about. There's not much point to just oohing and ahing. A wording, there was something they could sink their teeth into.

But uh. If the set were out, and someone said, wow Crown is complex, someone else would speak up with their actual personal experience that did not demonstrate this. There would be no traction to the complaint, unless the card were really confusing people. It's a preview though, so it's just hanging there, to be marveled at, and then, again, what conversation topics are there? Well hey, how does this work with Storyteller. Huh that's confusing. I guess this is super-confusing card.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #113 on: May 14, 2016, 11:27:21 pm »
+2

There's an element of personal preference / opinion here; not straight fact. I am quite convinced that Donald knows for more about card design than I do; but in my personal opinion both Villa and Crown feel gimmicky and add complexity without much value. But that's just my opinion; and only based on knowing what they do; having not played with them.
To me, Villa is that card that was some people's favorite Dominion card ever, that was nothing but endless good times; and Crown is that card people adored despite it mostly being Throne Room, that never caused any confusion whatsoever. And they were both novel, which people love.

I have no interest in making expansions that are all cards that already exist; no-one needs them. If those two adored cards that never messed up our games are too gimmicky or complex then I mean there's no possibility for making more expansions. I desperately need cards just like those cards, every time out, for there to be any point to the products.

The big take-away for me was not to do previews next time. It's work; it's stressful; and then people say "oh what if you combine this with Possession and Black Market, this expansion is too complex." Man.

Please, Donald, don't stop because of me. I'm sorry and i'll shut up now. A lot of people here are excited, and you make an effort nobody could expect of you by doing all of this. I took that effort for granted and derailed this thing you are doing for all of us with my preferences. I'm genuinely sorry :(

I feel like I'm observing a conversation between the God and the Moses of Dominion--and I feel privileged just to be able to listen.  For a long long time, I have loved Dominion.  (I think I started playing it shortly before or after Seaside came out.)  I have loved it for many of the same reasons that Asper has.  The design and balance of Dominion is impeccable and unmatched.  Whenever I have tried other deckbuilding games, or even other board games in general, I always compare them to Dominion and feel disappointed by them. 
In the last few months I have been frequenting the fan card forums here, and discovered great joy in the cards of Asper, CL, LFN, and others, especially appreciating Seasons (made by Asper and CL), as I felt like it gave Dominion a whole new dynamic that I really enjoyed, as well as having that same high degree of balance and design that real expansions of Donald have had.  (I actually prefer Seasons to Alchemy, which is shocking for me to admit, because it takes alot of skill to make a fan expansion that is actually playable and enjoyable.) 
I personally am very excited about the new expansion and think that it will probably be the best expansion so far (I think Adventures is my favorite, followed by Dark Ages--they keep getting better).  I also don't think the new cards are too complicated or whatever, but I really appreciate Aspers thoughts and hope that we all can get along :)

 
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #114 on: May 14, 2016, 11:36:36 pm »
+1

I know there's like, what is there to talk about. The reddit thread for Landmarks is all about how they could do a better job wording Keep; that's what they found to talk about. There's not much point to just oohing and ahing. A wording, there was something they could sink their teeth into.
This is a little ridiculous--not sure why people feel the need to nitpick over something as small as wording.  I actually really appreciate the wording that you choose for your cards, even though at first it takes a second to get used to, because the wording means EXACTLY what it says, which is helpful.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 11:45:03 pm by Nflickner »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #115 on: May 14, 2016, 11:36:57 pm »
+5

Man. I love the previews. I look forward to them every time there is a new set. And I'm clearly not the only one. I mean, consider the traffic on this site around 12pm EST every day. I would be disappointed if there were no previews for future sets (if any).

Frankly, I dont understand the complaining. If you don't like a card, don't play with it. Its really that simple. My wife doesn't like Possession, so we don't play with that card. The game is no less enjoyable for me.

I look forward to all of the new cards, and am glad this set is continuing to push the boundaries of the game.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #116 on: May 14, 2016, 11:44:05 pm »
+7

Man. I love the previews. I look forward to them every time there is a new set. And I'm clearly not the only one. I mean, consider the traffic on this site around 12pm EST every day. I would be disappointed if there were no previews for future sets (if any).

Frankly, I dont understand the complaining. If you don't like a card, don't play with it. Its really that simple. My wife doesn't like Possession, so we don't play with that card. The game is no less enjoyable for me.

I look forward to all of the new cards, and am glad this set is continuing to push the boundaries of the game.

I completely agree with everything said here.  Please don't ever stop the Previews.  I also love how they have become a sort of tradition.  The teasers, then the three cards.  It literally feels more exciting than Christmas.  No joke. 
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #117 on: May 14, 2016, 11:54:08 pm »
+12

Man. I love the previews. I look forward to them every time there is a new set. And I'm clearly not the only one. I mean, consider the traffic on this site around 12pm EST every day. I would be disappointed if there were no previews for future sets (if any).

Frankly, I dont understand the complaining. If you don't like a card, don't play with it. Its really that simple. My wife doesn't like Possession, so we don't play with that card. The game is no less enjoyable for me.

I look forward to all of the new cards, and am glad this set is continuing to push the boundaries of the game.

I completely agree with everything said here.  Please don't ever stop the Previews.  I also love how they have become a sort of tradition.  The teasers, then the three cards.  It literally feels more exciting than Christmas.  No joke.
Thanks. Did I say that stuff out loud? I could just not read any of the preview threads. There you go.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #118 on: May 14, 2016, 11:57:05 pm »
+5

I completely agree with everything said here.  Please don't ever stop the Previews.  I also love how they have become a sort of tradition.  The teasers, then the three cards.  It literally feels more exciting than Christmas.  No joke.

Imagine if the previewed cards were released onto Dominion Online the day they were previewed. Now that would be a good life.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #119 on: May 15, 2016, 12:12:42 am »
+4

Donald, can we please have more previews?  We need something to keep us going until release :)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #120 on: May 15, 2016, 12:37:20 am »
+3

Imagine if the previewed cards were released onto Dominion Online the day they were previewed. Now that would be a good life.
People complained! Not very many, but you know. You can't please everyone. I remember Doug Z. saying, "sorry, guy who didn't want this."
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #121 on: May 15, 2016, 12:42:53 am »
+2

Donald, can we please have more previews?  We need something to keep us going until release :)

OK, so I know you're half-joking, but this made me think about how much of Empires has already been revealed! I mean any way you slice it, over half the Kingdom card piles were previewed. There are of course tons of un-previewed Events and Landmarks, and those are a huge chunk of new gameplay. But can you imagine if e.g. over 50% of Dark Ages was previewed before release? It's crazy when you think about it in those terms, is what I'm saying.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #122 on: May 15, 2016, 12:48:05 am »
+2

Donald, can we please have more previews?  We need something to keep us going until release :)

OK, so I know you're half-joking, but this made me think about how much of Empires has already been revealed! I mean any way you slice it, over half the Kingdom card piles were previewed. There are of course tons of un-previewed Events and Landmarks, and those are a huge chunk of new gameplay. But can you imagine if e.g. over 50% of Dark Ages was previewed before release? It's crazy when you think about it in those terms, is what I'm saying.

Well, Dark Ages released, like, a couple days after the previews.  Hinterlands released DURING previews.  I imagine Jay will be posting Empires rules sometime this week?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #123 on: May 15, 2016, 12:56:13 am »
+2

To be clear: one can have qualms about some of the things being previewed while still being glad and grateful that the previews are there. They've encouraged me to pre-order expansions I otherwise wouldn't have.

Possibly, the gap between previews and release is a little long this time? I mean, having chosen when previews come out then found that the release date is at the back end of the range of possibilities it probably wouldn't have been great to delay them, but...

I seem to remember that, with Dark Ages, online availability of the rulebook came hard on the heels of the previews, which quashed speculation about what else would be in the set, rules clarifications, etc. That gap is going to be longer this time.

And a lot of these cards aren't self-explanatory. Assuming the rulebook answers the kinds of questions people are having, its availability might quieten things down a bit.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #124 on: May 15, 2016, 01:09:56 am »
+1

If those two adored cards that never messed up our games are too gimmicky or complex then I mean there's no possibility for making more expansions.
Well, I don't see people saying that about Enchantress, or Landmarks, or split piles, or the new Events.

So even if those cards are too gimmicky or complex, Empires shows thare are still plenty of innovations which aren't.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #125 on: May 15, 2016, 01:25:08 am »
+2

People complained! Not very many, but you know. You can't please everyone. I remember Doug Z. saying, "sorry, guy who didn't want this."

Because it's the Internet, and it's the Internet's job to shit on everything good and holy. I really don't get that attitude in this case, especially when, as Hans said, you can just remove the material that annoys you. This isn't Magic, where something that you find annoying in a preview might well dominate all games you're going to be in for the next 9 months+. Just don't play with it.

Others have already pointed it out, but previews really are the most magical time of the year. Despite having all expansions, this was my first one and I really enjoyed waking up early to see what had been uncovered, then seeing what uses for it decent players had posited after I got back from work.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #126 on: May 15, 2016, 01:46:44 am »
+4

Well, Dark Ages released, like, a couple days after the previews.  Hinterlands released DURING previews.  I imagine Jay will be posting Empires rules sometime this week?
That doesn't sound like Jay. Or like anything I'd be suggesting to him.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #127 on: May 15, 2016, 01:49:59 am »
+4

The big take-away for me was not to do previews next time. It's work; it's stressful; and then people say "oh what if you combine this with Possession and Black Market, this expansion is too complex." Man.

Donald, since so often negativity ends up being a vocal minority, I'll also chime in and say how much I enjoy your previews. The last ones easily got me to pre-order Adventures, and after this week I'm super stoked for Empires. With every new expansion, I'm amazed at the ideas you keep coming up with.

Also, I'm an extremely pedantic literalist (yeah, I know, a bit redundant), and absolutely love the intentionality that you put into the wording on the cards. Every word serves a purpose, and it's very rare that a thoughtful, logical reading of cards leaves any uncertainty about rules. Thanks again for everything you've put into Dominion!

(You guys want to see real ambiguity? Go read the Quarriors rulebook sometime....)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #128 on: May 15, 2016, 01:55:04 am »
+8

But uh. If the set were out, and someone said, wow Crown is complex, someone else would speak up with their actual personal experience that did not demonstrate this.

Well... LFN has already done this, but hey, I've used this one too, and it is super not confusing. Seriously it's just Throne Room, except it costs more because you can use it on a treasure as a consolation prize when you don't find an action. (Also, I guess there are new things coming with it like playing Capital twice with it)

There are some bizarre cards like Black Market that might make it confusing, but seriously, that is Black Market's fault not Crown's.


I've played a few games with Villa too, and it is really not all that confusing either. What it is, is super amazingly fun. After I saw it for the first time I think it was 3 days before new cool things it can do stopped popping into my head.  I'd be willing to concede that maybe it wouldn't be the best card to throw at a brand new player, but this is the 10th expansion... surely someone at the table knows what they are doing. If you have been playing Dominion for a while, you will just have a blast doing things that feel like breaking the game.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 02:02:31 am by Deadlock39 »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #129 on: May 15, 2016, 02:16:05 am »
+1

Well... LFN has already done this, but hey, I've used this one too, and it is super not confusing.
It seems it is, for people who think in terms of playing cards as Actions, and playing cards as Treasures. That includes me, and it seems I'm far from alone. Suddenly, I can play a card "as a Treasure" in my buy phase and make Peddler cheaper, then stack it back on my deck using Scheme? I can play a card "as an Action" in my action phase and make Bank more valuable then topdeck it by buying Mandarin? Wibble!

Sure, those are isolated cards. But there are lots of such isolated cards.

Quote
I've played a few games with Villa too, and it is really not all that confusing either. What it is, is super amazingly fun.
What about for the other players? I've not played Alchemy much (because I can't find anyone to play it with me), but I "fondly" remember the player to my left Possessing the next player round and having them play King's Court on Possession "to see what would happen". What happened was they threw the game to the player two to my left, but I had to sit there for a good long while watching it happen! I worry Villa could promote downtime in a similar kind of way.

Alchemy:
[...]
The next big thing is that, I knew some people wouldn't appreciate the potion concept, but did not realize that some people would find the set to be too slow. It has an action-chaining sub-theme, in order to make individual potion-costing cards good in games where there's only one card to buy with potions, and well this leads to longer games.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #130 on: May 15, 2016, 02:29:10 am »
+3

My then 11yo son and his three friends had super fun going full circle with KC-Possession, and still manage to keep track of the turn order.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #131 on: May 15, 2016, 02:53:43 am »
+7

My then 11yo son and his three friends had super fun going full circle with KC-Possession, and still manage to keep track of the turn order.
That's something people always forget when putting down Possession. Kids.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #132 on: May 15, 2016, 02:57:48 am »
+16

I worry Villa could promote downtime in a similar kind of way.
Do you really though?

Do you lie in bed at night, thinking about it? You're sitting at the breakfast table, your wife says something, sorry honey, what was that? And she repeats it but you don't hear a word the second time either. You're sitting at your desk, you can't lose this account, it's too important, but all you can think about is that maybe this card you've never played with will fail just the way you want it to, just the way you imagine, so perfectly, a jewel of a failure, leaving you the clever chap who saw it all so clearly where no-one else could.

I mean, I'd like to think so. I'd like to think someone out there is doing that worrying. But I bet you don't really.
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Davio

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #133 on: May 15, 2016, 03:00:42 am »
+2

The thing about Crown (yes, let's talk about the actual card again) is that it costs $5, which competes directly with most of the cards you'd want to throne anyway.

And then your decision is: Do I want to get this so I could potentially win an action and otherwise play an extra Copper/Silver? Or do I want the actual $5 because I'd rather play that straight up then play that Copper/Silver?

Consider Mountebank; throning a Mountebank is great, but not drawing them together and throning a Copper is pretty useless.
So if I already have a Mountebank, I might get another Mountebank before I potentially get this, if at all.

So I think it's not particularly overpowered, it just gives you some choices, which is always good.

Obviously, this gets better if the cards you throne are worth more. Just throne that Royal Blacksmith or something!
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #134 on: May 15, 2016, 04:19:03 am »
+7

In Jack/BM, Crown is sort of interesting.

Anyway, as far as complexity, this card could have appeared in Intrigie and no one would have given it a second thought.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 04:20:43 am by Beyond Awesome »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #135 on: May 15, 2016, 04:39:51 am »
0

I worry Villa could promote downtime in a similar kind of way.

I see it more as an extension of Lab or Port, where you alternately marvel at what's going on and swear at your opponent because their turn won't end. And those are some of my favourite Dominion moments. Because while you're glad to see a chain go off, a little bit of you knows they might screw it up somehow or draw dead before they can finish you.

But that's not Crown, so I'll shut up about it.

So I think it's not particularly overpowered, it just gives you some choices, which is always good.

That's it - it gives you an alternate way of throning stuff and it seeks to resolve the dead draw issue, but, like with every card, there are plenty of checks on it to make sure it doesn't do this too reliably so as to make it OP.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #136 on: May 15, 2016, 04:42:35 am »
+4

Donald, I'm pretty sure I'm speaking for the majority when I say that Previews are great.
We get to see new cards with some interesting and fun presentation text, and that's cool, but they also show how much you and the playtesters like and are invested in making good expansions, and that's even more cool.
I understand how getting only feedback (positive and negative) about art, wording and "how does it work with Possession" makes it seem like the audience is not getting the point or something, but really, what else can we speak about?
Somebody will see a couple of cool synergies with other cards, somebody will explain how half of those don't work, and that's it.
But the low quality of the ensuing discussion is not a sign of a low quality experience on our part. (I see how it might be frustrating for you)
Anyway, I'll just throw this idea around, what if you experimentally included an interesting Kingdom in the next previews to give people something else to talk about? It's hard to speak about single cards, even more so when you have never played with them. Speaking about kingdoms is easier, and makes more sense too.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #137 on: May 15, 2016, 06:16:56 am »
0

Anyway, I'll just throw this idea around, what if you experimentally included an interesting Kingdom in the next previews to give people something else to talk about? It's hard to speak about single cards, even more so when you have never played with them. Speaking about kingdoms is easier, and makes more sense too.

I can still see the same problems arising: "It didn't work in this Kingdom, so it clearly should never be printed. God, Donald, why are you so awful?".

But I think you're totally right - rather than latching onto the most extreme cases of rules interpretations from the get-go, it would give players a chance to feel things out. And it would probably benefit beginners most of all in opening up vistas onto how all this new stuff might interact with all their old stuff. I'm going to write "all" again because that last sentence didn't have enough of it: all.

Once that's dusted, we can start working out where it lies on some sort of "potential to make your brain hurt when played with Possession" chart.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #138 on: May 15, 2016, 06:57:34 am »
+1

Well, you're free to use proxies and try the cards in your own kingdoms...
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #139 on: May 15, 2016, 08:09:30 am »
+15

The big take-away for me was not to do previews next time. It's work; it's stressful; and then people say "oh what if you combine this with Possession and Black Market, this expansion is too complex." Man.

I realize that lots of people have already responded, but as someone who posts very rarely here I feel the need to say that the previews were a huge part of this past week for me; I woke up excited to see what was going to be revealed, and had long thinks on the cards when they showed up.

I even made an effort to point them out to several of my real-life friends who wouldn't have come across f.ds on their own because I thought they were super interesting; we all collectively were delighted by Enchantress, that's for sure.

Yesterday we played a game of Dominion and mocked up Wolf's Den with an index card because one of the players thought it'd be super interesting to try out.  (I won by a landslide, in case you're wondering; the only unique card I ended up with was Champion, thanks to very careful deck management, and I won the Province breakdown on the last purchase as well.)

I long ago accepted that cards like Possession and Black Market are rife with rules weirdness, and it's their fault, not the new cards that tickle that weirdness.  Also, you're right; the first and only question any of my friends asked about debt was "can you win with it?"  I think the sort of person who would regularly visit a forum on the Internet dedicated to Dominion will often be someone who prides themselves on encyclopedic knowledge of rules minutiae and interactions, and so sometimes talking about new cards becomes all about those interactions, which almost never happen, rather than the general play case.  But that's enough Psych 101.

So: please to continue in future.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #140 on: May 15, 2016, 08:32:05 am »
+2

Imagine if the previewed cards were released onto Dominion Online the day they were previewed. Now that would be a good life.
People complained! Not very many, but you know. You can't please everyone. I remember Doug Z. saying, "sorry, guy who didn't want this."

I don't get what people would be complaining about there. Maybe it can be fixed by having previewed cards be optional to include?
Anyway, I loved the previews, and am confident the cards/landmarks/events will be really fun to play with, but there's not that much you can write about that. Judging from the number of visitors (I just noticed we broke the most online ever record on Friday) the forum had this last week, there are loads of people who were really hyped for the previews and likely would love to get some for the next expansion as well.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #141 on: May 15, 2016, 08:36:08 am »
+5

Please, Donald, don't stop because of me. I'm sorry and i'll shut up now. A lot of people here are excited, and you make an effort nobody could expect of you by doing all of this. I took that effort for granted and derailed this thing you are doing for all of us with my preferences. I'm genuinely sorry :(

Yeah, me too. I may tend to be more vocal about negatives than positives; but as I mentioned in the greatest Dominion moments thread; reading these previews has been the highlight of my Dominion-related experiences. I'm super excited each day to see what's next; and I have nothing but the highest praise and excitement for all the other revealed things.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #142 on: May 15, 2016, 09:22:55 am »
+6

Do you lie in bed at night, thinking about it?
Coincidentally, yes. But I know a rhetorical question when I see one.
Quote
but all you can think about is that maybe this card you've never played with will fail just the way you want it to, just the way you imagine, so perfectly, a jewel of a failure, leaving you the clever chap who saw it all so clearly where no-one else could
Here's a thing: 99% of the time, having a game's designer so deeply involved in the forums is a wonderful thing. Especially a designer as entertaining as you. I, like so many other people, am very grateful for that.

On the other hand, a few weeks ago I posted on BGG that my group never played the Generalist in Pandemic Legacy. They looked potentially interesting, kinda, but not necessarily as interesting let alone as powerful as the alternatives. What happened was a couple of people made some interesting replies. What didn't happen was Matt Leacock turning up in the thread to complain at me for negative speculation and accuse me of just trying to look clever.

So yeah, 1% of the time it might be nice to be able to express a worry about a new expansion online in the same way I would with some friends at the pub. Right now is that 1%.

That takes nothing away from the other 99%. I know that Dominion is one of my favourite games, the one I've spent the most time playing these past few years. I know that it's great that you're so committed to the forums. I don't lose sight of that.

Partly for the sake of space, partly because I'm one of those autistic-spectrum nerdy compsci types who tends to think it's OK to say anything halfway intelligent and sincere that's on one's mind without fear of hurting anyone's feelings, I don't actually prefix every reply with that. But I mean it.

And, hey, it's a huge testament to Dominion's excellence that I don't actually have much experience of being negative about anything in a way that doesn't piss you off.

Sorry. /-8
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #143 on: May 15, 2016, 10:03:13 am »
+1

Well if you've read enough of Donald's post you start to grasp his sense of humor. It's pretty sarcastic almost cynical. But I can see how you could interpret his posts if you didn't know any better.

Donald's pen/keyboard is very sharp and I think it's great he's still so involved.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #144 on: May 15, 2016, 10:30:16 am »
0

I think it's exactly right that most people think in terms of playing cards as actions and playing cards as treasures, and as crj writes, those people will be confused by Crown and a relatively big group of cards that care about a card being action or treasure. It just means Crown isn't straightforward, someone needs to have read the rules carefully and then explain it to the others. But that's already the case with several cards in Dominion.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #145 on: May 15, 2016, 10:44:15 am »
0

Well, you're free to use proxies and try the cards in your own kingdoms...

I did this for a little bit when I was waiting for my copy of Adventures to arrive. I only did this after I bought the set though so I didn't feel super guilty or whatever.

The main deterrent for me doing this really is that there aren't any randomizers that incorporate Empires yet, so I'd have to design the Kingdom, and I hate designing Kingdoms with cards I've literally never used because I'm wrong about how they work.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #146 on: May 15, 2016, 10:48:03 am »
+1

I did this for a little bit when I was waiting for my copy of Adventures to arrive. I only did this after I bought the set though so I didn't feel super guilty or whatever.

The main deterrent for me doing this really is that there aren't any randomizers that incorporate Empires yet, so I'd have to design the Kingdom, and I hate designing Kingdoms with cards I've literally never used because I'm wrong about how they work.

You can proxy one landmark/event you want to try out, then pick the rest of the kingdom normally. With kingdom cards, you can pick/proxy one kingdom card you want to try and pick the other 9 randomly. That's what I did when I got Prince, for example.   
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #147 on: May 15, 2016, 01:02:19 pm »
0

What didn't happen was Matt Leacock turning up in the thread to complain at me for negative speculation and accuse me of just trying to look clever.
I don't mind you not liking the cards, saying "I think this looks weak" or "I don't like this." People have endlessly done that for my games without me getting involved at all; I've got tons of evidence there. I don't stand up and say "but it's actually strong / fun." Man what happened here. Some people said "wow this is super-complex, what was Donald X. thinking." I said man why did I do previews. It is so much easier not doing previews. And then no-one would be thinking that stuff without people having access to the cards and actual experiences. I am still seeing a lot of upside, for me personally.

And I mean, I'm not the 99% Donald X., I'm the 100% Donald X. If you'd like to get rid of that 1%, well bad news. Like it says in the comic from that guy who deleted all his comics, wait I'll link it. http://67.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kttn9k6OuP1qa9t5fo1_500.png
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #148 on: May 15, 2016, 01:12:31 pm »
+8

Please, Donald, don't stop because of me. I'm sorry and i'll shut up now. A lot of people here are excited, and you make an effort nobody could expect of you by doing all of this. I took that effort for granted and derailed this thing you are doing for all of us with my preferences. I'm genuinely sorry :(
Dude if it was just you I would just be blaming you, quietly in a corner.

I know there's like, what is there to talk about. The reddit thread for Landmarks is all about how they could do a better job wording Keep; that's what they found to talk about. There's not much point to just oohing and ahing. A wording, there was something they could sink their teeth into.

But uh. If the set were out, and someone said, wow Crown is complex, someone else would speak up with their actual personal experience that did not demonstrate this. There would be no traction to the complaint, unless the card were really confusing people. It's a preview though, so it's just hanging there, to be marveled at, and then, again, what conversation topics are there? Well hey, how does this work with Storyteller. Huh that's confusing. I guess this is super-confusing card.

Here's the thing:  we all feel like Dominion belongs to us.  We evangelize it to others.  We defend it to others who tell us it is boring or claim one of the copiers "fixed" it.  We are the ones in each of our game groups who like Dominion the most, and want to be in the know.  A few years ago when Jay had Prosperity at a demo table at WBC a few weeks before release I pretty much played it non-stop.  It's our game.  Yes, we aren't the ones who invented it or put the thousands of hours into creating it.  But we also want it to be perfect, and we all have ideas.  The wording complaints and the "oh my God this combo is so broken/confusing/complicated" are just us whack jobs filling the void between now and May 25.  In a few days we will all be so busy playing that you won't hear too many more gripes, I hope.  If you are getting discouraged, just go read some of the fun threads like Great Dominion Moments.

Thanks for the previews and thanks for Dominion.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 01:15:52 pm by Orange »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #149 on: May 15, 2016, 01:30:53 pm »
0

Let me chime in with some optomism.

The minute I found this set on BGG I was determined to get it. I preordered it even before the previews were released, and I nave no reason to regret that purchase.  All the previews look great, and I especially enjoyed enchatress!

As a resoponse to all the complaints, hold back judgement for crying out loud. Saying you don't like the idea of a card, the art, or saying you are confused is fine. But It's way to early to say that you won't want to buy the set. Wait a few weeks, and see the rest of the cards. Saying a set is stupid BEFORE you have even seen all the contents of it is unfair.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #150 on: May 15, 2016, 01:47:54 pm »
+1

I mean, I also have to say that I'm not going to buy the set, but that's only because I know for sure that almost nobody wants to play Dominion against me IRL as it is, and the few people who still play Dominion with me sometimes certainly don't want any extra complexity or new cards to learn. The cards themselves are super exciting and I'm very looking forward to playing with them online.
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Davio

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #151 on: May 15, 2016, 02:21:14 pm »
+3

The best part about the way Dominion works is that if you don't like a particular card, you can just choose not to play with it and still have many other cards leftover to enjoy.

Even if you do find yourself in a game with that card, it'll be over in half an hour anyway.

It's not like Magic where a certain overpowered card will be in every deck. Not every game has Goons and not every game has Scout.
Not every game will have Crown and not every game will have Villa.

Each expansion will have cards you love, cards you like, cards you don't mind, cards you dislike and cards you hate.
Just play in whichever way is most fun to you!

After all, it's still a game; a game with a giant pool of published cards to pick from and if you don't like it, just create a fan card or even a full set!
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tristan

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #152 on: May 15, 2016, 03:36:26 pm »
0

My then 11yo son and his three friends had super fun going full circle with KC-Possession, and still manage to keep track of the turn order.
This. As Dominion is a family level game, something that could have easily won "Spiel des Jahres", I fail to see why hardcore gamers have a problem with a tiny bit more complexity. It is still Dominion though and not Twilight Imperium, some 18xx or Caylus or whatever.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #153 on: May 15, 2016, 03:48:59 pm »
+34

My then 11yo son and his three friends had super fun going full circle with KC-Possession, and still manage to keep track of the turn order.
This. As Dominion is a family level game, something that could have easily won "Spiel des Jahres", I fail to see why hardcore gamers have a problem with a tiny bit more complexity. It is still Dominion though and not Twilight Imperium, some 18xx or Caylus or whatever.
Dominion did in fact win Spiel des Jahres.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #154 on: May 15, 2016, 03:58:30 pm »
0

So does Crown work the same way as Throne Room in the sense that, if I Crown a Crown, I then get to Crown two cards instead of one? Like, I play Crown as an action, Crowning the second Crown, and then I get to Crown two more actions? Or if I play Crown as a treasure, Crowning the second Crown, I then get to Crown two treasures? I know thinking about this is pretty much useless, since just playing the two Crowns separately would do the same job, but it's nice to know.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #155 on: May 15, 2016, 04:01:20 pm »
+1

So does Crown work the same way as Throne Room in the sense that, if I Crown a Crown, I then get to Crown two cards instead of one? Like, I play Crown as an action, Crowning the second Crown, and then I get to Crown two more actions? Or if I play Crown as a treasure, Crowning the second Crown, I then get to Crown two treasures? I know thinking about this is pretty much useless, since just playing the two Crowns separately would do the same job, but it's nice to know.

Yes, it's identical to playing a throne room if it is your action phase. Except the "may" which allows you to play it without playing anything else.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #156 on: May 15, 2016, 04:03:36 pm »
0

So does Crown work the same way as Throne Room in the sense that, if I Crown a Crown, I then get to Crown two cards instead of one? Like, I play Crown as an action, Crowning the second Crown, and then I get to Crown two more actions? Or if I play Crown as a treasure, Crowning the second Crown, I then get to Crown two treasures? I know thinking about this is pretty much useless, since just playing the two Crowns separately would do the same job, but it's nice to know.

Yes, it's identical to playing a throne room if it is your action phase. Except the "may" which allows you to play it without playing anything else.
Cool. Thanks. That scenario I described is incredibly useless to think about, but it's not a new Dominion card if you're not thinking of completely abstract and obscure scenarios.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #157 on: May 15, 2016, 04:05:38 pm »
0

So does Crown work the same way as Throne Room in the sense that, if I Crown a Crown, I then get to Crown two cards instead of one? Like, I play Crown as an action, Crowning the second Crown, and then I get to Crown two more actions? Or if I play Crown as a treasure, Crowning the second Crown, I then get to Crown two treasures? I know thinking about this is pretty much useless, since just playing the two Crowns separately would do the same job, but it's nice to know.

Yes, it's identical to playing a throne room if it is your action phase. Except the "may" which allows you to play it without playing anything else.
Cool. Thanks. That scenario I described is incredibly useless to think about, but it's not a new Dominion card if you're not thinking of completely abstract and obscure scenarios.

As was pointed out by someone, somewhere, if your hand is bank, bank, crown, crown, then you will get more money by crowning the crown instead of crowning each bank separately.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #158 on: May 15, 2016, 04:08:45 pm »
0

So does Crown work the same way as Throne Room in the sense that, if I Crown a Crown, I then get to Crown two cards instead of one? Like, I play Crown as an action, Crowning the second Crown, and then I get to Crown two more actions? Or if I play Crown as a treasure, Crowning the second Crown, I then get to Crown two treasures? I know thinking about this is pretty much useless, since just playing the two Crowns separately would do the same job, but it's nice to know.

Yes, it's identical to playing a throne room if it is your action phase. Except the "may" which allows you to play it without playing anything else.
Cool. Thanks. That scenario I described is incredibly useless to think about, but it's not a new Dominion card if you're not thinking of completely abstract and obscure scenarios.

As was pointed out by someone, somewhere, if your hand is bank, bank, crown, crown, then you will get more money by crowning the crown instead of crowning each bank separately.
How? Bank is worth one per treasure "in play." If you double Crown, it's still only one Crown "in play."
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #159 on: May 15, 2016, 04:10:10 pm »
+5

But if you play Crown->Crown->Bank->Bank, you have 1 more treasure in play for the first Bank.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #160 on: May 15, 2016, 04:11:14 pm »
+2

Here's the thing:  we all feel like Dominion belongs to us.  We evangelize it to others.  We defend it to others who tell us it is boring or claim one of the copiers "fixed" it.  We are the ones in each of our game groups who like Dominion the most, and want to be in the know.  A few years ago when Jay had Prosperity at a demo table at WBC a few weeks before release I pretty much played it non-stop.  It's our game.  Yes, we aren't the ones who invented it or put the thousands of hours into creating it.  But we also want it to be perfect, and we all have ideas.  The wording complaints and the "oh my God this combo is so broken/confusing/complicated" are just us whack jobs filling the void between now and May 25.  In a few days we will all be so busy playing that you won't hear too many more gripes, I hope.  If you are getting discouraged, just go read some of the fun threads like Great Dominion Moments.

Thanks for the previews and thanks for Dominion.

Amen.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #161 on: May 15, 2016, 06:11:24 pm »
+5

One thing I'm happy about is that we're getting another Throne variant. Honestly, we have not gotten many Throne variants. Prior to Adventures, we just had 3. This is one card type that we can afford to have a little more of.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #162 on: May 15, 2016, 08:06:57 pm »
+4

I don't follow the logic that it doesn't matter if there's a card in some expansion that you don't like.

I mean, sure, it's not a huge deal. One needs a sense of perspective. But if you took it to the logical extreme, it wouldn't matter if you liked none of the cards in an expansion: you could still buy it and just never play it.

Similarly, I don't follow the logic that it's not OK to judge a set by the previews. Isn't that like saying we can't decide whether or not to see a movie based on the trailer? Someone (Donald X., presumably) has chosen which cards to preview on the basis that they show Empires off to best effect.


Then again, even if I've managed to get a reputation as one of the malcontents, I do really like a lot of what I've seen, and there's stuff I really want to try out. I'm not saying the above applies to me, just that it feels bogus to claim it inherently couldn't.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #163 on: May 16, 2016, 12:55:04 am »
0

One thing I'm happy about is that we're getting another Throne variant. Honestly, we have not gotten many Throne variants. Prior to Adventures, we just had 3.
4 if you count Scheme, but I agree TR and variants (almost) always make a kingdom more fun, and Crown more likely than others because it still works in money-based decks.


Everyone having access to the same cards is one of the big reasons why I love Dominion while I hate MTG.
(and yet I love Black Market too.)

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #164 on: May 16, 2016, 01:29:04 am »
0

One thing I'm happy about is that we're getting another Throne variant. Honestly, we have not gotten many Throne variants. Prior to Adventures, we just had 3.
4 if you count Scheme, but I agree TR and variants (almost) always make a kingdom more fun, and Crown more likely than others because it still works in money-based decks.


Everyone having access to the same cards is one of the big reasons why I love Dominion while I hate MTG.
(and yet I love Black Market too.)

Wow, I've never thought of Scheme as a TR variant, but I guess it does kind of work.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #165 on: May 16, 2016, 05:01:34 am »
+3

Penguins can't fly.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #166 on: May 16, 2016, 05:31:46 am »
+15

Penguins can't fly.

Buy more Catapults.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #167 on: May 16, 2016, 05:45:01 am »
+2

Magic from the outset focused on being a tournament/competition game with aantes and stuff. But you can play it casually as well. Dominion started out as a casual game that we took more and more seriously.

But in its core Dominion is still that casual game where you can exclude your 50 most hated cards and still have 200+ to choose from. I don't really associate Dominion with tournaments so the hated cards thing isn't really an issue.

I'm sad when I see Rebuild in a random game, but at least it's over soon and next game might have a very convoluted but fun engine.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #168 on: May 16, 2016, 11:54:29 am »
+1

One thing I'm happy about is that we're getting another Throne variant. Honestly, we have not gotten many Throne variants. Prior to Adventures, we just had 3.
4 if you count Scheme, but I agree TR and variants (almost) always make a kingdom more fun, and Crown more likely than others because it still works in money-based decks.


Everyone having access to the same cards is one of the big reasons why I love Dominion while I hate MTG.
(and yet I love Black Market too.)

You forgot to count Counterfeit, too. I also don't see why Adventures should be ignored, especially as it adds two TR-variants. And Scheme is probably the closest thing we have to a Duration-TR (to date...). So we get to 7, which is quite a bit more than 3.



By the way, in case anybody cares, i changed my opinion on Debt. Assuming you decide to implement debt at all, the current implementation seems like the best way to handle it. I originally thought you should have made it a cost in coins and then treat the debt part like a "+" or "*", where you simply take debt tokens on buy. Interestingly, this makes you run into exactly the same problems i ran into when trying to make a card you could pay less for. There it was, this costs $3+ and you gain a Copper per $ you overpay less than $3. The problem here was, Workshop could gain it without a penalty. This is the same problem you get when simply ignoring debt for cost comparisons, as a card costing 8 Debt (and 0 coins) would cost $0 for Workshop. So, no, not good.

The obvious other way to implement debt would have been, just add up the standard coin value and the debt coin value for comparisons. But then you could buy an 8 Debt card very cheap and Remodel it into whatever other card. This is another thing i ran into when trying my card as a $6 that allowed you to gain Coppers to buy it, although there the penalty affected your deck.

Of course both problems are worse the wider the gap between max and min price are. With my card, it was $3, which was already enough for me to abandon the concept in the end. With the official cards, it's much more. So, if you want to make Debt cards, i admit that having Debt as a third "currency" is the best way to do it, as it avoids both the Workshop and Remodel problems.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #169 on: May 16, 2016, 12:55:59 pm »
0

The obvious other way to implement debt would have been, just add up the standard coin value and the debt coin value for comparisons. But then you could buy an 8 Debt card very cheap and Remodel it into whatever other card.
I assume something very like that will have got playtested, but I'm intrigued to know why it would be a problem. You can already get trash-for-benefit fodder really cheaply via Haggler, Border VIllage, Talisman, Peddler, ...

Being able to Expand a card that has a cost of "$8, but you can incur debt to help buy it" into a Colony doesn't feel broken or not-fun to me.

Maybe this will come out in the secret history.
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Davio

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #170 on: May 16, 2016, 01:57:38 pm »
+7

I'm sad this back-and-forth is in the Crown-thread, because I think it's an awesome card; I love the boldness of finally making that coveted Action - Treasure. Hey you can even draw it with Adventurer and play it as an Action! Magpie can find it and you can use it on another Magpie! It's just great all around and most importantly... fun.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #171 on: May 16, 2016, 02:23:41 pm »
+14

By the way, in case anybody cares, i changed my opinion on Debt.
For my part, I now think that the deal with my response to the thread is the way I was singled out.

There's a bit I repeat. People sometimes come up to me and want to tell me personally that they don't like Dominion. And I say that's cool. Hey it didn't win game of the year in Austria!

Sometimes people say, I hate this card. Well I can't make cards people love without making cards people hate. Or, this card sure looks weak/strong. It's nice to have the cards be hard to evaluate and I know they don't really have any data yet. It is so easy to not feel at all bad about any of this.

But when someone says "Donald X., that guy, personally let me down," well man. Maybe you let yourself down, did you think of that?

I don't think it was just you doing this but I'm not checking.

Now I will try to be friendly.

So Debt. A key thing is to have cost tell you something about power level. When Debt was "cost $0, when you gain this during your turn, take 8D," that $0 cost interacted with things in a very poor way (e.g. Swindler). It turns out this is a mistake I made on other cards back when, e.g. the Prizes (at the time thinking, let's make the cost make it clear that you can't buy this; man this couldn't cost $0, oh I see). It's cool for one card for combos (Peddler) but in general cost should mean something. Other cards expect it to. Also the interaction with Possession was not great for this version.

The first version was "Debt." The card costs e.g. $10, and under a dividing line it says "Debt (You may buy this for $0, but can't buy more cards until paying it off.)" I am trying to think of exactly what was going down when it changed; there's too much history to read through and the important thing was getting the work done, not leaving a clear record. The red coin gave the mechanic more flexibility that I immediately made use of (e.g. Fortune's cost, Capital's ability). There was Possession (at the time with no errata); switching to "cost $0, when gain this get D" made it not lock you out with debt, which was at least a step up. This is the big question really because going to the red coin/hexagon in the corner was an obvious step up from the cost $0 version. I don't remember specific issues with the giant cost being a big number although it's nice to have the fail-safe of killing those interactions. We enjoyed the interactions that weren't a problem, e.g. Chariot Race.

The final version is a red coin or as it turns out hexagon in the corner. This took text off of the cards that didn't tell you enough extra anyway, plus the dividing line. And it fixed issues with the $0 not being the real cost of the card (the "undefined" hexagon is way better). At the time it was just fantastic, solving all the issues I had except Possession, which in the end gets errata. It's useful that the cards can't be gained normally other ways, though e.g. Jester can get them. It's very clean. The rules for comparing costs are the same as for Potion, which is great because it means people who understand Potion costs don't have anything new to learn there.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #172 on: May 16, 2016, 02:24:10 pm »
+6

I'm sad this back-and-forth is in the Crown-thread, because I think it's an awesome card; I love the boldness of finally making that coveted Action - Treasure. Hey you can even draw it with Adventurer and play it as an Action! Magpie can find it and you can use it on another Magpie! It's just great all around and most importantly... fun.
I don't want you to be sad, so I'll just split it off. And since we don't need it somewhere else either, I'll just delete it. Hope you had fun, Awaclus.

Edit: There was some collateral damage, sorry anyone who liked their post that's gone; but note that everyone got to keep their respect, hooray.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 02:30:09 pm by Donald X. »
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Mavy2k

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #173 on: May 16, 2016, 02:30:07 pm »
0

What I really do not understand is the sublimal hostility towards Donald and the smirk posts without providing anything useful to the discussion, just for the sake of arguing. Why, just why?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 02:30:39 pm by Donald X. »
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #174 on: May 16, 2016, 02:33:31 pm »
+1

What I really do not understand is the sublimal hostility towards Donald and the smirk posts without providing anything useful to the discussion, just for the sake of arguing. Why, just why?
If this had been a few minutes earlier I would have just deleted it with the rest, but instead I edited it so you didn't wonder, wtf where is my post. So this is the part that wasn't part of The Continuing Story of Awaclus. It's uh. It's not exactly good times but you get to say it anyway. Which I guess is part of the explanation you're looking for too.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #175 on: May 16, 2016, 02:37:13 pm »
+4

I'm sad this back-and-forth is in the Crown-thread, because I think it's an awesome card; I love the boldness of finally making that coveted Action - Treasure. Hey you can even draw it with Adventurer and play it as an Action! Magpie can find it and you can use it on another Magpie! It's just great all around and most importantly... fun.
I don't want you to be sad, so I'll just split it off. And since we don't need it somewhere else either, I'll just delete it. Hope you had fun, Awaclus.

Edit: There was some collateral damage, sorry anyone who liked their post that's gone; but note that everyone got to keep their respect, hooray.

Well, I'm sad about this discussion, but I'm happy about the previews and in the end that's the emotion that prevails so overall I'm pretty happy. I quite enjoyed the thrill of F5-ing, thinking about timezones and when I could somewhat expect a new card. And I really like the direction we've gone into.

Each expansion added something wacky and new and that's great; it amazes me that it took Empires for people to actually complain about it. Or are people still ranting about Colony and Platinum? Do people still find it difficult to track their Durations? Maybe. Are Action - Victory cards still confusing people? And what about those Shelters, it kills Baron and, and... Scout. >:( Hovel is really weird, it's just a Reaction with no main card type, surely such an abomination may not exist, kill it with fire! And Jack needs to go back in the box. Events? Since when is it okay to buy something that's not a card? A Tavern mat? Is that the place to put your beer mug on? Travellers? What is this, Doctor Who?
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Mavy2k

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #176 on: May 16, 2016, 02:37:37 pm »
0

What I really do not understand is the sublimal hostility towards Donald and the smirk posts without providing anything useful to the discussion, just for the sake of arguing. Why, just why?
If this had been a few minutes earlier I would have just deleted it with the rest, but instead I edited it so you didn't wonder, wtf where is my post. So this is the part that wasn't part of The Continuing Story of Awaclus. It's uh. It's not exactly good times but you get to say it anyway. Which I guess is part of the explanation you're looking for too.

Thanks for the explanation. I was indeed very confused after my post ;-)
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #177 on: May 16, 2016, 02:43:26 pm »
+2

I'm sad this back-and-forth is in the Crown-thread, because I think it's an awesome card; I love the boldness of finally making that coveted Action - Treasure. Hey you can even draw it with Adventurer and play it as an Action! Magpie can find it and you can use it on another Magpie! It's just great all around and most importantly... fun.
I was surprised that Crown provoked negative reactions as I feel it's a very elegant card in the sense that the rules for it are very simple (it could quite happily have been in the base set), yet it has great potential for novel play features.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #178 on: May 16, 2016, 02:45:21 pm »
+9

As far as I can tell, Donald X. misunderstood my original post and then he has been arguing against his own misunderstanding, but he clearly doesn't like it when he has to defend his positions because he has stopped doing so, so I can't know for sure.
I don't believe so, and you are utterly incorrect about me. You can easily find as much evidence as you want of me defending positions endlessly against people who seemed like they were actually listening.

Also your post has vanished.

If necessary I will try to get theory to ban you.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #179 on: May 16, 2016, 03:02:54 pm »
0

I apologize if this was brought up earlier. How exactly does Crown work with Magpie? Do you reveal Crown, and both put it in your hand AND gain a Magpie?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #180 on: May 16, 2016, 03:05:07 pm »
+12

I apologize if this was brought up earlier. How exactly does Crown work with Magpie? Do you reveal Crown, and both put it in your hand AND gain a Magpie?

Yup.  First you put it in your hand, because it's a Treasure.  Then you gain a Magpie, because it's an Action.  That's... pretty fantastic, to be honest.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #181 on: May 16, 2016, 03:26:37 pm »
+2

I apologize if this was brought up earlier. How exactly does Crown work with Magpie? Do you reveal Crown, and both put it in your hand AND gain a Magpie?

Yup.  First you put it in your hand, because it's a Treasure.  Then you gain a Magpie, because it's an Action.  That's... pretty fantastic, to be honest.

Yeah. basically the same as gaining one with Ironworks (except you need a cost-reducer first)... it will give you both +1 action and +$1. Oh, and if you Inherited them, then gaining one with Ironworks will give you a full Peddler effect.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #182 on: May 16, 2016, 04:01:41 pm »
0

I apologize if this was brought up earlier. How exactly does Crown work with Magpie? Do you reveal Crown, and both put it in your hand AND gain a Magpie?

Yup.  First you put it in your hand, because it's a Treasure.  Then you gain a Magpie, because it's an Action.  That's... pretty fantastic, to be honest.

Yeah. basically the same as gaining one with Ironworks (except you need a cost-reducer first)... it will give you both +1 action and +$1. Oh, and if you Inherited them, then gaining one with Ironworks will give you a full Peddler effect.

?
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #183 on: May 16, 2016, 04:03:18 pm »
+3

I apologize if this was brought up earlier. How exactly does Crown work with Magpie? Do you reveal Crown, and both put it in your hand AND gain a Magpie?

Yup.  First you put it in your hand, because it's a Treasure.  Then you gain a Magpie, because it's an Action.  That's... pretty fantastic, to be honest.

Yeah. basically the same as gaining one with Ironworks (except you need a cost-reducer first)... it will give you both +1 action and +$1. Oh, and if you Inherited them, then gaining one with Ironworks will give you a full Peddler effect.

?

Inherited Crowns are Action-Treasure-Victory cards, so Ironworks will give you +1 Card, +1 Action, and +$1.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #184 on: May 16, 2016, 04:11:09 pm »
0

Inherited Crowns are Action-Treasure-Victory cards, so Ironworks will give you +1 Card, +1 Action, and +$1.

You have to Ironworks the Estate for that, though, not the Crown. Which is maybe what you meant -- I'm not sure. (I'm going based on the wording in the Wiki, which calls them "Inherited Estates")
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #185 on: May 16, 2016, 04:32:09 pm »
+3

Penguins can't fly.

Buy more Catapults.

I love the way these posts were spared, and are now left as a monument to non-sequiturs and pastry.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #186 on: May 16, 2016, 04:42:56 pm »
+1

Inherited Crowns are Action-Treasure-Victory cards, so Ironworks will give you +1 Card, +1 Action, and +$1.

You have to Ironworks the Estate for that, though, not the Crown. Which is maybe what you meant -- I'm not sure. (I'm going based on the wording in the Wiki, which calls them "Inherited Estates")

Yes, I was talking about Ironworking Estates after Inheriting Crown. But yeah, I wasn't clear about that in the way I said it.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #187 on: May 16, 2016, 05:25:02 pm »
+8

I apologize if this was brought up earlier. How exactly does Crown work with Magpie? Do you reveal Crown, and both put it in your hand AND gain a Magpie?

Yup.  First you put it in your hand, because it's a Treasure.  Then you gain a Magpie, because it's an Action.  That's... pretty fantastic, to be honest.

Yeah. basically the same as gaining one with Ironworks (except you need a cost-reducer first)... it will give you both +1 action and +$1. Oh, and if you Inherited them, then gaining one with Ironworks will give you a full Peddler effect.

Also, Full Peddler Effect would be a great name for a band.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #188 on: May 16, 2016, 07:51:04 pm »
+2

I was surprised that Crown provoked negative reactions as I feel it's a very elegant card in the sense that the rules for it are very simple (it could quite happily have been in the base set), yet it has great potential for novel play features.
I made a comment, and I think I said it in one of the Crown preview threads, about how Empires was shaping up to be the most complex set. I didn't mean it to appear that negative, but I can understand it being read as such, and for that I'm sorry. I actually think that Crown is incredibly simple rules-wise, and I think that it is an excellent choice for an Action-Treasure card - in fact, I think it's one of those ones that seems obvious in hindsight since it's an effect that actively takes advantage of its dual nature for more than just "can't be drawn dead" (as I predicted it ought to). Its complexity comes from the emergent behaviour when you combine it with other cards, that results in things that, again, make sense, but go even further to press the boundaries of how we think a Dominion card "should" work.

So if it seemed like I was blaming or attacking Donald for something, I really wasn't. And I look forward to playing with Empires, hopefully some time after I finally get my head around Adventures properly.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #189 on: May 17, 2016, 02:23:56 am »
0

I'm sad this back-and-forth is in the Crown-thread, because I think it's an awesome card; I love the boldness of finally making that coveted Action - Treasure. Hey you can even draw it with Adventurer and play it as an Action! Magpie can find it and you can use it on another Magpie! It's just great all around and most importantly... fun.
I was surprised that Crown provoked negative reactions as I feel it's a very elegant card in the sense that the rules for it are very simple (it could quite happily have been in the base set), yet it has great potential for novel play features.
Totally agree. It is a simple and straightforward card. You could e.g. argue that KC is more complex than Crown, not in terms of design but in terms of execution and tracking.
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Davio

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #190 on: May 17, 2016, 02:53:59 am »
0

And let's face it, we mostly play online and then all of these tracking issues aren't really an issue anymore.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #191 on: May 17, 2016, 05:15:15 am »
+3

Overall, I'm pretty sure that Adventures is the most complex set and will remain that way.

Let's compare the two expansions.

Adventures
Tokens: Okay, this is a big one, but irl, it's easy to forget about token abilities
Reserves: It can be pretty easy to forget about these, especially irl.
Events: Adds more components/extra complexity. Also, easy to forget about irl. Though, Empires has Events, but this set introduced them which makes Adventures more complex since people are seeing them and getting used to them here.
Inheritance: Easy to forget irl that your estates are Inherited. See tokens.
Travellers: Easy to forget to upgrade, plus adds 5 cards per kingdom. Technically BM and Tournament do that as well, but it's a lot to keep track of, especially if both Travellers show up in a Kingdom.
Duration-Attacks: Potentially easy to forget an attack like Swamp Hag is in play. We've seen Enchantress, but again, introduced in this expansion.

So, yah, that's a lot of complexity, and I have not named everything.

Empires
Landmarks: I'm pretty sure these are easier than Events. You have to go in thinking more about strategy, but not an extra card to buy.
Debt: You can pay off a card later. Seems simple enough.
Split Piles: These seem the most complex thing of the expansion. You now have to be aware of an extra card underneath and think about whether it is worth digging to get to the card underneath.
Crown: Not really complex. I mentioned earlier this could have appeared in Intrigue, and it would have fit in well there. The effect is pretty straightforward and easy to grasp.
VP tokens: We've seen these in Prosperity. Most people buying this will have likely played with/own Prosperity.

So, overall, I'm pretty sure that Adventures is more complex than Empires by a pretty huge margin. Nonetheless, Empires is still a pretty complex expansion, at least for Dominion.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #192 on: May 17, 2016, 05:44:56 am »
0

Landmarks: I'm pretty sure these are easier than Events. You have to go in thinking more about strategy, but not an extra card to buy.

On the face of it, they look less complex because you're only dealing with them/calculating them at the end of the game. But you could argue that because you have to cross-check whether a certain card is worth picking up because of the potential benefit it grants you from landmarks, they're actually just as complex as a regular kingdom card.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #193 on: May 17, 2016, 05:58:46 am »
+2

It's very clear that different people see complexity in different places.

For me, one issue is the cognitive load while playing - not just in terms of all the rules I have to think about, but also strategic considerations and what the other players are up to.

Another is how well I can form a consistent mental model of what's going on, and therefore internalise it.

So for me, the oddity that debt behaves like potions when considering card costs but is altogether novel when actually buying is an irregularity, and therefore a complexity. Crown meaning cards played in the action phase can be Treasures in play and vice-versa disrupts my existing mental model of how Dominion works, and is therefore a complexity.

Gathering and Castles (and, to a lesser extent, split piles) look like they will necessitate closer consideration of what opponents are doing and when. That's complexity. It's also complexity down a completely different axis, meaning you have to be thinking about more kinds of thing during a game.

Landmarks are, in some senses, permanent reactions: things you have to think about all the time rather than just when you play/buy/gain/trash/whatever that specific thing. To me, that's the same kind of complexity as having a Watchtower in hand or Duchess in the supply, only a bit more so.


In Adventures, needing to keep track of where tokens are is, indeed, a complexity. But Events, I found 100% straightforward - no more complex than adding a couple more kingdom piles would be. Reserves are, if anything, simpler than Durations (no risk of losing track of which ones you played this turn and which ones last). What I mainly found complex in Adventures was all the gnarly detail around the interaction of tokens with Band of Misfits and Inheritance, whether or not you could upgrade an Inherited-Page, the precise implications of Storyteller, etc.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 11:44:51 am by crj »
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #194 on: May 17, 2016, 06:27:24 am »
+2

Here are some more interesting interactions:
  • You can Mine a Silver into a Crown and get a TR in hand that way
  • Thief gets a small boost
  • Herbalist becomes a Scheme!
  • Mint can copy it!
  • It counts towards Bank, even if you play it during the Action phase
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #195 on: May 17, 2016, 07:11:17 am »
+11

Yeah, i guess i took personal offense at some of the cards. Why that is, i don't want to explain, because that's not what this thread's about, but it is my own problem entirely, and i shouldn't have made it anyone else's problem. It was obviously really rude and inappropriate, and i'd like to apologize for that again. I mean, it's really that typical fan behaviour where you cn't accept your idol is doing something you don't like. Suddenly he's the bad guy who let you down, how dare he? Ugh. I don't know what got into me.

Before i already apologized for my behaviour, but i wanted to make a point by explaining how i saw that my premise itself, that debt could have been done better, was invalid. I wasn't trying to start a discussion on that topic again, just clear up doubt and maybe say something positive, but, well, it probably came out pretty awkward. I guess there's a few lessons to learn here. Sorry.

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #196 on: May 17, 2016, 08:34:48 am »
0

    • You can Mine a Silver into a Crown and get a TR in hand that way
    • It counts towards Bank, even if you play it during the Action phase
    These two subtle things in particular make me very glad that Crown exists. It's not just another TR variant, slightly more expensive or slightly less powerful - it's a TR variant that effects other cards and enters ours decks in ways that run contrary to what we've been playing with thus far.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #197 on: May 17, 2016, 09:35:35 am »
    +1

    Herbalist becomes a Scheme!

    Due to the difference in Herbalist's and Scheme's wording, Herbalist can topdeck a Crown doubling a Duration, whereas a Scheme cannot.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #198 on: May 17, 2016, 10:05:41 am »
    +1



    What seems to me like the most complex thing in Empires is the introduction of the mechanic of things that do different things based on which phase you're in. It's not complex in the same way that you're talking about (easy to forget), but things like Villa and Crown do bring up a lot of rules questions based on their interactions with other cards. The casual Dominion player has less of an intuitive sense of what the different phases are in general. This is not to say that Empires is too complicated, but it's something that's easy to overlook.

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #199 on: May 17, 2016, 02:13:29 pm »
    0

    Herbalist becomes a Scheme!

    Due to the difference in Herbalist's and Scheme's wording, Herbalist can topdeck a Crown doubling a Duration, whereas a Scheme cannot.
    Luckily we already accepted that a Duration could still be doubled without the doubled card having to be attached to it.

    In fact, I think it would have probably been easier from the get-go to just use little tokens to remind you that you TR-ed or KC-ed a Duration instead of leaving them attached.
    « Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 02:14:37 pm by Davio »
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #200 on: May 17, 2016, 02:19:22 pm »
    0

    Herbalist becomes a Scheme!

    Due to the difference in Herbalist's and Scheme's wording, Herbalist can topdeck a Crown doubling a Duration, whereas a Scheme cannot.
    Luckily we already accepted that a Duration could still be doubled without the doubled card having to be attached to it.

    In fact, I think it would have probably been easier from the get-go to just use little tokens to remind you that you TR-ed or KC-ed a Duration instead of leaving them attached.

    Well, one could probably argue that discarding the TR would be inconsistent with the general rule that a card stays in play until the last turn it does something.

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #201 on: May 17, 2016, 02:21:46 pm »
    0

    • Mint can copy it!

    Hero can also gain it!

    A negative interaction is that you can hit it with Loan instead of trashing a Copper.
    « Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 05:54:28 pm by JW »
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #202 on: May 17, 2016, 02:25:35 pm »
    0

    A negative interaction is that you can flip it with Loan.

    Well you can flip Throne Room with Loan too, for what that's worth. :P But yeah, Loan would stop on Crown, whereas it bypasses Throne Room.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #203 on: May 17, 2016, 02:25:48 pm »
    +7

    Probably someone's mentioned this, but it also affects Alms.

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #204 on: May 17, 2016, 02:42:05 pm »
    +2

    Herbalist becomes a Scheme!

    Due to the difference in Herbalist's and Scheme's wording, Herbalist can topdeck a Crown doubling a Duration, whereas a Scheme cannot.
    Luckily we already accepted that a Duration could still be doubled without the doubled card having to be attached to it.

    In fact, I think it would have probably been easier from the get-go to just use little tokens to remind you that you TR-ed or KC-ed a Duration instead of leaving them attached.

    Well, one could probably argue that discarding the TR would be inconsistent with the general rule that a card stays in play until the last turn it does something.

    That rule is specific to durations, though. That's why Possession doesn't stay out.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #205 on: May 17, 2016, 03:00:18 pm »
    0

    Herbalist becomes a Scheme!

    Due to the difference in Herbalist's and Scheme's wording, Herbalist can topdeck a Crown doubling a Duration, whereas a Scheme cannot.
    Luckily we already accepted that a Duration could still be doubled without the doubled card having to be attached to it.

    In fact, I think it would have probably been easier from the get-go to just use little tokens to remind you that you TR-ed or KC-ed a Duration instead of leaving them attached.

    Well, one could probably argue that discarding the TR would be inconsistent with the general rule that a card stays in play until the last turn it does something.

    That rule is specific to durations, though. That's why Possession doesn't stay out.

    Um. Yeah. I remember making the same point before, and someone else mentioning Possession to disprove me. I remember it... Now.

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #206 on: May 17, 2016, 05:34:25 pm »
    0

    In fact, I think it would have probably been easier from the get-go to just use little tokens to remind you that you TR-ed or KC-ed a Duration instead of leaving them attached.
    I idly pondered that a few years ago.

    In certain restricted senses, the really correct thing to do would be to have a non-supply pile of "Duration Effect" cards corresponding to each Duration. So Wharf says "Now and at the start of your next turn, +2 Cards, +1 Buy. Take a Wharf Duration Effect card to remind you."If you Throne it, you take two Duration Effect cards; in any case, the Wharf itself gets cleaned up along with everything else. That's completely immune to confusions even in corner cases like the Wharf getting trashed from play.

    But that's verbose, and involves moving more cardboard around, and printing extra cards, and the behaviour isn't backwards-compatible with what we have now, and... and...
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #207 on: May 17, 2016, 05:42:31 pm »
    +1

    In fact, I think it would have probably been easier from the get-go to just use little tokens to remind you that you TR-ed or KC-ed a Duration instead of leaving them attached.
    I idly pondered that a few years ago.

    In certain restricted senses, the really correct thing to do would be to have a non-supply pile of "Duration Effect" cards corresponding to each Duration. So Wharf says "Now and at the start of your next turn, +2 Cards, +1 Buy. Take a Wharf Duration Effect card to remind you."If you Throne it, you take two Duration Effect cards; in any case, the Wharf itself gets cleaned up along with everything else. That's completely immune to confusions even in corner cases like the Wharf getting trashed from play.

    But that's verbose, and involves moving more cardboard around, and printing extra cards, and the behaviour isn't backwards-compatible with what we have now, and... and...

    Wharf certainly doesn't need this buff. The fact that Durations miss shuffles controls their power level to some extent. Some of them would be insane if this is how they worked.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #208 on: May 17, 2016, 07:18:43 pm »
    0

    the behaviour isn't backwards-compatible with what we have now
    I said that.

    If Durations worked that way, they'd have to have different abilities and/or prices. You couldn't just proxy up some "Duration Effect" cards and play that way, expecting it to be balanced.
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    Davio

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #209 on: May 18, 2016, 03:37:07 am »
    0

    I might make a house rule for this, just use VP tokens or Coin tokens or Trade Route tokens or Embargo tokens to denote the number of times you played your Durations.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #210 on: May 18, 2016, 04:01:58 am »
    0

    I might make a house rule for this, just use VP tokens or Coin tokens or Trade Route tokens or Embargo tokens to denote the number of times you played your Durations.
    This would of course have a small effect on the power of TR, KC, etc by releasing them in to the discard pile more rapidly when used with a Duration card.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #211 on: May 18, 2016, 05:21:32 am »
    0

    Yes, I know, but the beauty of Dominion is that it effects each player equally.
    So we all get to benefit from our overpowered TRs/KCs!
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #212 on: May 18, 2016, 06:42:03 am »
    +1

    Yes, I know, but the beauty of Dominion is that it affects each player equally.
    So we all get to benefit from our overpowered TRs/KCs!
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #213 on: May 18, 2016, 06:47:34 am »
    +7

    Yes, I know, but the beauty of Dominion is that it affects each player equally.
    So we all get to benefit from our overpowered TRs/KCs!
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #214 on: May 18, 2016, 07:08:35 am »
    0

    Yes, I know, but the beauty of Dominion is that it affects each player equally.
    So we all get to benefit from our overpowered TRs/KCs!
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #215 on: May 18, 2016, 02:54:43 pm »
    0

    Yes, I know, but the beauty of Dominion is that it affects each player equally.
    So we all get to benefit from our overpowered TRs/KCs!
    Ftfy
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    Your probably write mower often then many native speakers.

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #216 on: May 18, 2016, 03:44:45 pm »
    +1

    Yes, I know, but the beauty of Dominion is that it affects each player equally.
    So we all get to benefit from our overpowered TRs/KCs!
    Ftfy
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    How much VP are Americans worth?
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #217 on: May 18, 2016, 04:13:08 pm »
    +10

    Yes, I know, but the beauty of Dominion is that it affects each player equally.
    So we all get to benefit from our overpowered TRs/KCs!
    Ftfy
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #218 on: May 18, 2016, 04:53:26 pm »
    0

    is this card better or worse if the action and treasure effects are reversed
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #219 on: May 18, 2016, 04:56:21 pm »
    0

    is this card better or worse if the action and treasure effects are reversed

    Much worse, from both a design standpoint and a power standpoint.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #220 on: May 18, 2016, 05:44:18 pm »
    0

    is this card better or worse if the action and treasure effects are reversed

    Much worse, from both a design standpoint and a power standpoint.

    Definitely. From a power standpoint... playing your treasures in the action phase instead of the buy phase is a little strong; but only when you have a way to take advantage of it (Tactician and Library mostly). Playing your actions in the buy phase though is way weaker, because additional action granted by non-terminals are wasted; and the cards you draw from drawers will go to waste if they are actions.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #221 on: May 19, 2016, 05:52:57 pm »
    +8

    (I mean, just Villa is incredibly intense)

    As someone who really prioritizes accessibility, I intentionally played a game using Villa with someone new to Dominion. No issues. If you don't have 5+ years of being trained to think "Dominion works this way" only to then have that broken, it's very easy to learn these new "complex" things from scratch.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #222 on: May 20, 2016, 06:41:54 am »
    +1

    Yes, I know, but the beauty of Dominion is that it affects each player equally.
    So we all get to benefit from our overpowered TRs/KCs!
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #223 on: May 20, 2016, 10:21:29 am »
    +16

    I hadn't checked these threads for a couple of days. So I missed some of the controversy, but I just want to add my enthusiastic support for previews. Probably my favorite thing about a new expansion is the Previews. Obviously I look forward to playing with the cards. However, Previews generate that excitement I feel when I have an unexpected present that I now get to unwrap and reveal.

    I can't really explain why, but last week, I was checking every chance I got on either my phone or tablet to see the new cards and comments about them.  I was reading each preview to my wife with a big smile on my face and both of us laughing over Donald X's comments about the cards.  She kept shaking her head at this little boy I had become who was so excited to be opening a new present every day. As far as I am concerned, I would be content to see every card previewed so that the excitement would last longer and we could get specific information about each card from the designer or those he has permitted to represent him in the previews. (I realize this is way too much work, but please don't kill a man for dreaming.). By the way, after the first day of previews, she asked me why I hadn't ordered it yet, which I have since remedied.

    If there are any future Dominion expansions as has been suggested, then please give us the previews, Donald. It will be one of the highlights of my year anytime it happens.

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #224 on: May 20, 2016, 01:35:18 pm »
    +2

    As someone who really prioritizes accessibility, I intentionally played a game using Villa with someone new to Dominion. No issues. If you don't have 5+ years of being trained to think "Dominion works this way" only to then have that broken, it's very easy to learn these new "complex" things from scratch.

    I've been thinking about that - Villa seems crazy to me, but would it to someone who hasn't been thinking "ABC" for years? Is it any more complicated than some of the cards were when I played Glory to Rome for the first time a few weeks ago?
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #225 on: May 20, 2016, 08:18:21 pm »
    +2

    Well, I had an interesting time with a Magic player who was new to Dominion a couple of weeks ago.

    "OK. Let me explain that again. Unless you play a card that says otherwise, first you may play one Action card. Then you may play any number of Treasures. Then you may buy one card. Once you're finished, you must discard any cards left in your hand. Then you draw five new cards at the end of your turn. Yes, you get through your deck quickly, but that doesn't matter because you don't lose if it's exhausted: just shuffle your gra... er... discards to make a new one."

    It only took about two thirds of the first game for them to stop needing reminding and start getting their head around it. (-8
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #226 on: May 20, 2016, 11:22:32 pm »
    +1

    I find it's easy to teach Magic players.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #227 on: May 21, 2016, 03:50:30 am »
    +3

    The only problem I've ever had with Magic players is that one of them tried to pay the cost of an Action card again when he was playing it.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #228 on: May 21, 2016, 04:18:56 am »
    +1

    The only time I taught Dominion to Magic players the only problem I had was that it fell quite flat.
    They were pretty casual, though, and I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal. Where are my Dragons? And what's so special about King's Courts?
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #229 on: May 21, 2016, 05:00:27 am »
    +4

    I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

    That's because our game is actually balanced 8)
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #230 on: May 21, 2016, 05:09:02 am »
    +1

    I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

    That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

    Well, we still have stuff like Scout and Thief that are kind of equivalent to Magic's Timmy stuff in terms of power level.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #231 on: May 26, 2016, 01:55:04 pm »
    +3

    I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

    That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

    Well, we still have stuff like Scout and Thief that are kind of equivalent to Magic's Timmy stuff in terms of power level.

    I think a better analogy might be stuff like Treasure Map, which looks hugely powerful, but really isn't.

    EDIT: I guess sometimes Scout and Thief look really strong to rookies.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #232 on: May 26, 2016, 09:00:00 pm »
    +3

    I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

    That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

    Well, we still have stuff like Scout and Thief that are kind of equivalent to Magic's Timmy stuff in terms of power level.

    I think a better analogy might be stuff like Treasure Map, which looks hugely powerful, but really isn't.

    EDIT: I guess sometimes Scout and Thief look really strong to rookies.

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #233 on: May 27, 2016, 10:11:09 am »
    +6

    Magic players are usually easy marks for getting addicted to Dominion. First of all, they love lots of variety, so I usually play two games right up front (randomizing from the entire collection and cutting slog-makers) so that they can see how different the games can be.

    But more importantly, a large part of the fun of Magic is the acquisition part. The buying of cards. Magic players get an endorphin rush just from the smell of a newly-opened booster pack of cards that they now own. And there's the anticipation factor of flipping through the stack seeing what those cards are (or, at least, what the rare is.)

    The act of buying cards is the principle game mechanic of Dominion. You get that endorphin rush every time you pick up a card from the supply and place it in your pile. And when you clean up and draw a whole new hand at the end of each turn, you get that anticipation factor of flipping through a whole new hand instead of just one card.

    The money/acquisition cycle is a powerfully addictive one. Magic takes advantage of that by actually selling cards to players with real money. Dominion acknowledges that principle and uses it to make a fun and engaging game using virtual money. Some of us have given up the Magic treadmill for good. I sold my collection years ago.

    Dominion is like methodone for ex-Magic players.

    Now shut up and take my money for Empires.

    (On the flip side, it's accessible for non-hardcore gamers. When I tell casual gamers that Magic releases as many new cards as are in all of the Dominion expansions put together approximately every six months, they're aghast. As they should be.)
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #234 on: May 27, 2016, 10:32:51 am »
    +2

    Magic players are usually easy marks for getting addicted to Dominion. First of all, they love lots of variety, so I usually play two games right up front (randomizing from the entire collection and cutting slog-makers) so that they can see how different the games can be.

    But more importantly, a large part of the fun of Magic is the acquisition part. The buying of cards. Magic players get an endorphin rush just from the smell of a newly-opened booster pack of cards that they now own. And there's the anticipation factor of flipping through the stack seeing what those cards are (or, at least, what the rare is.)

    The act of buying cards is the principle game mechanic of Dominion. You get that endorphin rush every time you pick up a card from the supply and place it in your pile. And when you clean up and draw a whole new hand at the end of each turn, you get that anticipation factor of flipping through a whole new hand instead of just one card.

    The money/acquisition cycle is a powerfully addictive one. Magic takes advantage of that by actually selling cards to players with real money. Dominion acknowledges that principle and uses it to make a fun and engaging game using virtual money. Some of us have given up the Magic treadmill for good. I sold my collection years ago.

    Dominion is like methodone for ex-Magic players.

    Now shut up and take my money for Empires.

    (On the flip side, it's accessible for non-hardcore gamers. When I tell casual gamers that Magic releases as many new cards as are in all of the Dominion expansions put together approximately every six months, they're aghast. As they should be.)

    Thank you for that, JThorne. Now I know for sure I'm never going to play Magic. As someone who thoroughly enjoys methadone, I'm not going to make the jump up to heroin. :P
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #235 on: May 27, 2016, 11:10:28 am »
    0

    I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

    That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

    Well, we still have stuff like Scout and Thief that are kind of equivalent to Magic's Timmy stuff in terms of power level.

    I think a better analogy might be stuff like Treasure Map, which looks hugely powerful, but really isn't.

    EDIT: I guess sometimes Scout and Thief look really strong to rookies.

    "You mean Saboteur TRASHES THEIR CARDS!?!?!?!?!?!?  OMG SO POWERFUL OP"

    I remember the first game I played with Intrigue cards. It was a 6p game. The first played opened Saboteur and then the rest of us rushed the Ironworks. Maybe it didn't help that we had just played a Uni/Vineyards game so we were all in the mindset of "must get all the action cards".

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #236 on: May 27, 2016, 11:26:05 am »
    +1

    I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

    That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

    Well, we still have stuff like Scout and Thief that are kind of equivalent to Magic's Timmy stuff in terms of power level.

    I think a better analogy might be stuff like Treasure Map, which looks hugely powerful, but really isn't.

    EDIT: I guess sometimes Scout and Thief look really strong to rookies.

    "You mean Saboteur TRASHES THEIR CARDS!?!?!?!?!?!?  OMG SO POWERFUL OP"

    I remember the first game I played with Intrigue cards. It was a 6p game. The first played opened Saboteur and then the rest of us rushed the Ironworks. Maybe it didn't help that we had just played a Uni/Vineyards game so we were all in the mindset of "must get all the action cards".

    How the Saboteur player must have felt:

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #237 on: May 27, 2016, 02:57:45 pm »
    0

    I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

    That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

    Can someone summarize Timmy for me?  I don't remember the idea and don't want to reread the article...
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #238 on: May 27, 2016, 03:05:35 pm »
    0

    I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

    That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

    Can someone summarize Timmy for me?  I don't remember the idea and don't want to reread the article...

    Likes to play "big" cards, like Champion.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #239 on: May 27, 2016, 03:10:06 pm »
    0

    I thought it was actually referring to Tim:

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #240 on: May 27, 2016, 03:11:36 pm »
    +2

    I agree a new player might not have as much trouble accepting an Action-Treasure or a card that returns to your action phase, because he never got used to some categories which i still think were useful in understanding the game. It's not something new to explain, but instead means that you can't explain things as easily as you used to. You have to be more accurate. Obviously, those things happen all the time. Before Horn of Plenty and Bank, people could just put all their money on the table in any order, and nobody cared. Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too. Those simplifications which work at the beginning and then have to be replaced with more accurate explanations happen all the time, and it's obviously necessary for a game that adds more and more content.

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #241 on: May 27, 2016, 03:26:07 pm »
    +7

    Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too.

    No  :'( This isn't okay.  People don't just flash their cards and say "I have a Royal Flush" in Poker.  You have to actually adequately show your opponents what you are doing.

    /pet-peeve

    (sorry)

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #242 on: May 27, 2016, 06:14:46 pm »
    0

    I suspect Dominion somewhat lacks Timmy-appeal.

    That's because our game is actually balanced 8)

    Well, we still have stuff like Scout and Thief that are kind of equivalent to Magic's Timmy stuff in terms of power level.

    I think a better analogy might be stuff like Treasure Map, which looks hugely powerful, but really isn't.

    EDIT: I guess sometimes Scout and Thief look really strong to rookies.

    "You mean Saboteur TRASHES THEIR CARDS!?!?!?!?!?!?  OMG SO POWERFUL OP"

    I remember the first game I played with Intrigue cards. It was a 6p game. The first played opened Saboteur and then the rest of us rushed the Ironworks. Maybe it didn't help that we had just played a Uni/Vineyards game so we were all in the mindset of "must get all the action cards".
    My first game with Saboteur was a five-player game where everyone was so afraid of them that we basically developed an unspoken agreement not to use them (it reminded me a little of the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction during the Cold War).  Then late in the game, one of the players who was trailing got desperate and bought one, and soon everyone was going for them.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #243 on: May 27, 2016, 06:22:01 pm »
    +7

    Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too.

    No  :'( This isn't okay.  People don't just flash their cards and say "I have a Royal Flush" in Poker.  You have to actually adequately show your opponents what you are doing.

    /pet-peeve

    (sorry)

    Some of us play with friends for fun, not with strangers for leaderboards. I called the fun police, and they said, i quote: "Whatever suits you. Just make sure everyone consents and is of legal age". Now that i think of it, maybe i called the wrong guys, but you get my point.

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #244 on: May 27, 2016, 06:23:29 pm »
    +1

    Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too.

    No  :'( This isn't okay.  People don't just flash their cards and say "I have a Royal Flush" in Poker.  You have to actually adequately show your opponents what you are doing.

    /pet-peeve

    (sorry)

    Obviously this is going to be very situational, such as the group you are playing with, the setting, etc. In a tournament, or just a casual game with a friend? Playing a big specific amount of treasures and buys so that you then pick up 2 Provinces and a Duchy? Or just laying down a few Coppers and grabbing a Silver for $3?

    I played 6 games with my sister-in-law over the past few days (first Dominion games in a long time actually), and for more than half of the turns, our buy phase just consisted of laying our hand down on the table (VP and unused actions included) and then saying "I have $x; I'll take a ____".
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #245 on: May 27, 2016, 06:33:41 pm »
    +2

    Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too.

    No  :'( This isn't okay.  People don't just flash their cards and say "I have a Royal Flush" in Poker.  You have to actually adequately show your opponents what you are doing.

    /pet-peeve

    (sorry)

    Don't you dare apologize for that.  Proper Dominion rules etiquette must be enforced with a iron fist, and maybe a ruler to the knuckles.
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #246 on: May 27, 2016, 07:16:23 pm »
    +3

    Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too.

    No  :'( This isn't okay.  People don't just flash their cards and say "I have a Royal Flush" in Poker.  You have to actually adequately show your opponents what you are doing.

    /pet-peeve

    (sorry)

    Don't you dare apologize for that.  Proper Dominion rules etiquette must be enforced with a iron fist, and maybe a ruler to the knuckles.

    The fun police told me that flashing my stuff in front of strangers wouldn't be okay, but nobody had the right to deny our group to do that in our own place. They also said that i should not invite people expressing a desire to hit me to my house if i didn't want that. Apparently, i called the right people after all.

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #247 on: May 29, 2016, 10:24:15 am »
    0

    Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too.

    No  :'( This isn't okay.  People don't just flash their cards and say "I have a Royal Flush" in Poker.  You have to actually adequately show your opponents what you are doing.

    /pet-peeve

    (sorry)

    In all seriousness: Nobody denies your right to demand knowing what's going on. Stop denying me the right to be fine with flashing cards at me. If i really wanna know, or doubt the integrity or intellect of my friends, i'll just ask them to show me again. Seriously.

    Also, Poker has 48 different, 2-attribute cards where order and pairing matter. Dominion has 3 different, trivially incremental base treasures. 80% of the time, flashing them is more than enough time, especially as you start with only one kind of treasure where counting them is enough already. And as mentioned, nobody implied i can't see them again if i didn't get it. Do you also check the sleeves of your friends for hidden Provinces when you invite them to a game night?

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #248 on: May 29, 2016, 11:09:54 am »
    +1

    Before Philosopher's Stone, people could just flash their money and as long as nobody else cared, that would be okay, too.

    No  :'( This isn't okay.  People don't just flash their cards and say "I have a Royal Flush" in Poker.  You have to actually adequately show your opponents what you are doing.

    /pet-peeve

    (sorry)

    In all seriousness: Nobody denies your right to demand knowing what's going on. Stop denying me the right to be fine with flashing cards at me. If i really wanna know, or doubt the integrity or intellect of my friends, i'll just ask them to show me again. Seriously.

    Also, Poker has 48 different, 2-attribute cards where order and pairing matter. Dominion has 3 different, trivially incremental base treasures. 80% of the time, flashing them is more than enough time, especially as you start with only one kind of treasure where counting them is enough already. And as mentioned, nobody implied i can't see them again if i didn't get it. Do you also check the sleeves of your friends for hidden Provinces when you invite them to a game night?

    No, because nobody wants to come any more, for some reason.  :'(

    Maybe installing that anti-vp-token metal detector by the door was a bit too much?
    « Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 11:13:15 am by Accatitippi »
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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #249 on: May 29, 2016, 02:38:35 pm »
    +7

    Hey, I didn't reply again to this stuff because it's fine for people to have different opinions. I don't feel much like arguing about it, but you're replying a second time, so maybe you want me to defend my anti-fun opinion.

    I don't think my friends are trying to cheat at games. My opinion is based entirely on the honest mistakes that are inherent to the nature of games with complex rules. Everyone makes mistakes. Playing in a way that allows the rest of the players to easily sanity check you moves is just common sense. I won't try to argue that someone is going to mess up counting 3 Coppers, but I have definitely seen people think they have $7 when they actually have $8 and vice-versa. Turn 1 and 2 are trivial, but I don't think bad habits should be practiced.

    That's really all I have to say. I really shouldn't have commented because you said "as long as nobody else cared", which means I don't actually disagree with what you said.

    Asper

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    Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
    « Reply #250 on: May 29, 2016, 03:43:09 pm »
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    Hey, I didn't reply again to this stuff because it's fine for people to have different opinions. I don't feel much like arguing about it, but you're replying a second time, so maybe you want me to defend my anti-fun opinion.

    I don't think my friends are trying to cheat at games. My opinion is based entirely on the honest mistakes that are inherent to the nature of games with complex rules. Everyone makes mistakes. Playing in a way that allows the rest of the players to easily sanity check you moves is just common sense. I won't try to argue that someone is going to mess up counting 3 Coppers, but I have definitely seen people think they have $7 when they actually have $8 and vice-versa. Turn 1 and 2 are trivial, but I don't think bad habits should be practiced.

    That's really all I have to say. I really shouldn't have commented because you said "as long as nobody else cared", which means I don't actually disagree with what you said.

    Yes, i said that because i hoped it would keep that discussion from happening yet again, but i admit that in replying to it a second time i'm also guilty. So, back to topic.
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