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Author Topic: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown  (Read 35004 times)

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faust

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Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« on: May 11, 2016, 10:03:38 am »
+21

(shamelessly copied from BGG to get loads of respect)



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Crown is Dominion's first Action/Treasure. It's an Action. It's a Treasure. You can play it whenever you can play either of those things. It counts as both of those things for cards that care about what other cards are. It does something different depending on whether it's your Action phase or your Buy phase; not that different, though. You might use it as a Throne Room that doesn't totally suck if it doesn't collide with your other Actions. Or maybe you want to save it for your treasures; playing Platinum twice is probably better than playing Chancellor twice. When the crown's on your head, you make the call.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2016, 10:05:30 am »
+4

So you can play Crown during Black Market, and play another Black Market twice. If you do, will you keep the 3 revealed cards still revealed, and reveal the next 3?
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faust

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2016, 10:07:10 am »
+2

So you can play Crown during Black Market, and play another Black Market twice. If you do, will you keep the 3 revealed cards still revealed, and reveal the next 3?

I would think so. Also, you would only be able to buy among the newly revealed cards. If this is how it works, then I imagine it must be a pain to implement a decent interface.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2016, 10:09:27 am »
0

So you can play Crown during Black Market, and play another Black Market twice. If you do, will you keep the 3 revealed cards still revealed, and reveal the next 3?

I would think so. Also, you would only be able to buy among the newly revealed cards. If this is how it works, then I imagine it must be a pain to implement a decent interface.

Yeah, assuming that's how it works, this could even be chained... You could reveal huge number of cards from the Black Market all at once. The upper limit isn't so obvious to figure out when you consider Band of Misfits and Inheritance.
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Haddock

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2016, 10:14:02 am »
+2

I thought Black Market explicitly didn't give you another Buy phase, but rather a one-time opportunity to buy a card and a "+1 Buy" for good measure.

Or have I got that backwards?
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M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (1-1, 50%): 42 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2016, 10:15:32 am »
+3

Anyway, I have always been a vocal opponent of Action-Treasure cards whenever they've been proposed for fan cards. And I have to say that my opinion hasn't really changed (this is just a first-reaction; obviously playing with the cards is a whole different level). It feels very awkward that the same card sometimes uses up an action point to play and sometimes doesn't. You're playing an action, that should require an action point to do so. At the same time, you're playing a Treasure, why do you have to spend an action point?

The effect itself seems fine; though I wonder if it was necessary to have different effects in buy phase vs action phase.

And then there's the fact that you can now play Actions while you are in the middle of resolving a Storyteller or Black Market. Now Donald has defended this on BGG by pointing out that the confusion there is the fault of Storyteller and Black Market, not of Crown. Well sure, but we already have Storyteller and Black Market.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2016, 10:16:54 am »
+1

I thought Black Market explicitly didn't give you another Buy phase, but rather a one-time opportunity to buy a card and a "+1 Buy" for good measure.

Or have I got that backwards?

It does NOT give you a buy phase, and that's the whole point. It is still your action phase while resolving Black Market, which means then when you play Crown, you are playing it in your action phase, so you choose another action from your hand and play it twice.
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Seprix

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2016, 10:24:47 am »
0

I thought Black Market explicitly didn't give you another Buy phase, but rather a one-time opportunity to buy a card and a "+1 Buy" for good measure.

Or have I got that backwards?

It does NOT give you a buy phase, and that's the whole point. It is still your action phase while resolving Black Market, which means then when you play Crown, you are playing it in your action phase, so you choose another action from your hand and play it twice.

Wow, so you can play Tactician with Crown while having a Black Market effect for a free +10 Cards next turn. That's wicked good.
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Voltaire

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2016, 10:27:41 am »
0

You're playing an action, that should require an action point to do so. At the same time, you're playing a Treasure, why do you have to spend an action point?

What? You don't have to spend an Action to play Crown in your Buy phase.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2016, 10:29:08 am »
0

I thought Black Market explicitly didn't give you another Buy phase, but rather a one-time opportunity to buy a card and a "+1 Buy" for good measure.

Or have I got that backwards?

It does NOT give you a buy phase, and that's the whole point. It is still your action phase while resolving Black Market, which means then when you play Crown, you are playing it in your action phase, so you choose another action from your hand and play it twice.

Wow, so you can play Tactician with Crown while having a Black Market effect for a free +10 Cards next turn. That's wicked good.

The second time, you couldn't discard anything.  Not really any different than regular Black Market/Tactician enabled by a Village, or your previous Tactician. 
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2016, 10:31:55 am »
+1

I thought Black Market explicitly didn't give you another Buy phase, but rather a one-time opportunity to buy a card and a "+1 Buy" for good measure.

Or have I got that backwards?

It does NOT give you a buy phase, and that's the whole point. It is still your action phase while resolving Black Market, which means then when you play Crown, you are playing it in your action phase, so you choose another action from your hand and play it twice.

Wow, so you can play Tactician with Crown while having a Black Market effect for a free +10 Cards next turn. That's wicked good.

Not sure what you mean.... how is playing Tactician during the Black Market effect different than playing it right after? And how would you use that to get +10 cards instead of just +5?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2016, 10:33:41 am »
0

You're playing an action, that should require an action point to do so. At the same time, you're playing a Treasure, why do you have to spend an action point?

What? You don't have to spend an Action to play Crown in your Buy phase.

I know; I'm just saying it seems awkward and confusing. You can play an action without spending an action point. And earlier in that same turn, you maybe had to spend an action point to play a treasure.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2016, 10:37:38 am »
+2

Too bad the instructions aren't the other way around. If they were, you could Crown a Horn of Plenty, gain a Villa, and then Crown that with the same play of Crown.

Is the start of turn, part of your action phase? I. e., if you prince a Crown, does it do anything?
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Voltaire

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2016, 10:38:16 am »
+1

It may be awkward and confusing on paper (I'd disagree), but I never saw it be a problem in-person.
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Haddock

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2016, 10:39:38 am »
0

I thought Black Market explicitly didn't give you another Buy phase, but rather a one-time opportunity to buy a card and a "+1 Buy" for good measure.

Or have I got that backwards?

It does NOT give you a buy phase, and that's the whole point. It is still your action phase while resolving Black Market, which means then when you play Crown, you are playing it in your action phase, so you choose another action from your hand and play it twice.
Oh right, sorry, yeah that makes sense.  I see how that's an issue.  I guess I've always kinda seen (though I knew that strictly it wasn't the case) the Black Market thing as setting up like a whole new "Black Market Phase", which is neither your Action phase nor your Buy phase.  Of course even if that were the rule, it wouldn't fix the Storyteller interaction.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (1-1, 50%): 42 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2016, 10:40:40 am »
+2

Too bad the instructions aren't the other way around. If they were, you could Crown a Horn of Plenty, gain a Villa, and then Crown that with the same play of Crown.

Is the start of turn, part of your action phase? I. e., if you prince a Crown, does it do anything?

Yes, it's already your Action phase during start-of-turn effects.
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Seprix

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2016, 10:48:54 am »
0

I thought Black Market explicitly didn't give you another Buy phase, but rather a one-time opportunity to buy a card and a "+1 Buy" for good measure.

Or have I got that backwards?

It does NOT give you a buy phase, and that's the whole point. It is still your action phase while resolving Black Market, which means then when you play Crown, you are playing it in your action phase, so you choose another action from your hand and play it twice.

Wow, so you can play Tactician with Crown while having a Black Market effect for a free +10 Cards next turn. That's wicked good.

Not sure what you mean.... how is playing Tactician during the Black Market effect different than playing it right after? And how would you use that to get +10 cards instead of just +5?

Oh, right. I didn't think that whole +10 cards thing through. Playing tactician during Black market could be useful if there is no +Actions on the board though besides Tactician.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2016, 10:51:38 am »
+2

It works if you buy a Villa from the Black Market after playing the Tactician.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2016, 11:09:26 am »
0

It works if you buy a Villa from the Black Market after playing the Tactician.

I thought of this, but it doesn't work with the Crown case discussed.  Play Black Market, play Crown, play Tactician_1, discard hand.  Continue resolving Crown, play Tactician_2; discard nothing so do not draw +5 next turn..  Continue resolving Black Market, buy Villa.  Tactician_2 is already resolved by this point.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2016, 11:12:01 am »
+3

Obviously the Villa draws a Lost City, which draws another Tactician.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2016, 11:16:38 am »
+9

You're playing an action, that should require an action point to do so. At the same time, you're playing a Treasure, why do you have to spend an action point?

What? You don't have to spend an Action to play Crown in your Buy phase.

I know; I'm just saying it seems awkward and confusing. You can play an action without spending an action point. And earlier in that same turn, you maybe had to spend an action point to play a treasure.

You are thinking about this backwards. It does not "cost" an Action to play an Action card, and it never has. If it did, it would cost 3 Actions to Throne Room a Smithy. All the Action type intrinsically means is that you may spend an Action during your Action phase to play that card (whenever you're not actively resolving any effects). Crown is an Action card, so you may spend an Action during your Action phase to play Crown. You may not spend an Action during your Action phase to play a Gold or a Duchy, because those cards do not have the Action type.

All the Treasure type intrinsically means is that you may play that card during the first portion of your Buy phase (before buying anything or paying off Debt); it doesn't cost any resources to do so. Crown is a Treasure card, so you may play it during that first portion of your Buy phase. Actions never enter into it. You may not play Smithy or Curse during your Buy phase, because those cards do not have the Treasure type.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 11:18:24 am by LastFootnote »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2016, 11:18:45 am »
+1

Obviously the Villa draws a Lost City, which draws another Tactician.

Right, and.. still has nothing to do with Crown :)  Also, Villa doesn't draw cards, so you need a +1 Card token on it there.
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navical

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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2016, 11:44:07 am »
+1

Obviously the Villa draws a Lost City, which draws another Tactician.

Right, and.. still has nothing to do with Crown :)  Also, Villa doesn't draw cards, so you need a +1 Card token on it there.

Which you can't do if you're buying Villa from the Black Market.

On the other hand, if you have a hand of Storyteller, Crown, Tactician, Copper, Estate, say, then you can play Storyteller, play Copper, play Crown on Tactician, discarding Estate the first time and nothing the second, then draw 2 cards from Storyteller to let you continue your go *and* get the +5 Cards +1 Action +1 Buy from Tactician next turn.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2016, 11:51:03 am »
0

You're playing an action, that should require an action point to do so. At the same time, you're playing a Treasure, why do you have to spend an action point?

What? You don't have to spend an Action to play Crown in your Buy phase.

I know; I'm just saying it seems awkward and confusing. You can play an action without spending an action point. And earlier in that same turn, you maybe had to spend an action point to play a treasure.

You are thinking about this backwards. It does not "cost" an Action to play an Action card, and it never has. If it did, it would cost 3 Actions to Throne Room a Smithy. All the Action type intrinsically means is that you may spend an Action during your Action phase to play that card (whenever you're not actively resolving any effects). Crown is an Action card, so you may spend an Action during your Action phase to play Crown. You may not spend an Action during your Action phase to play a Gold or a Duchy, because those cards do not have the Action type.

All the Treasure type intrinsically means is that you may play that card during the first portion of your Buy phase (before buying anything or paying off Debt); it doesn't cost any resources to do so. Crown is a Treasure card, so you may play it during that first portion of your Buy phase. Actions never enter into it. You may not play Smithy or Curse during your Buy phase, because those cards do not have the Treasure type.

Strangely, I'm not sure what the Victory type intrinsically means. I guess it means you need to follow its instructions/add its VP to your total at the end of the game, but that doesn't even necessarily apply to Overgrown Estate.
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Re: Empires Bonus Preview #2: Crown
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2016, 11:58:02 am »
0

My first impression is that Crown is weak.  Playing a treasure twice isn't nearly as good as playing an action twice.  Throning an action effectively gives you +1 Action, but Throning a treasure doesn't give anything of the sort.  If only standard treasures are available, Crown can never be better than a gold during your Buy phase.
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