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Author Topic: Electrum  (Read 1973 times)

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Marcory

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Electrum
« on: May 10, 2016, 03:13:32 pm »
+3

Version 0.4

Electrum Treasure $2

$5
=======
When you would gain this, you may trash a Gold and Silver from your hand.
If you did, gain this to the top of your deck.
If you didn't, this stays in the Supply.

Version 0.3

Electrum Treasure $2

$5
--------------
When you would gain this, trash a Gold and Silver from your hand.
If you did, gain this to the top of your deck.
If you didn't, this stays in the Supply.

Version 0.2:

Electrum Treasure $2

$5

---------------
When you gain this, trash a Gold and a Silver from your hand.
If you did, put this on top of your deck.
If you didn't, return this to the supply.

Version 0.1:
Electrum Treasure $2

$5
-----------
When you gain this, trash a Gold and a Silver from in play or from your hand.
If you did, put this on top of your deck.
If you didn't, return this to the supply.


Electrum is an alloy of gold and silver. The card is designed so that you pay the on-gain penalty whether you bought it or gained it from Mine/Mint/Remodeler.

Is this too expensive? Too cheap? Worth buying?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 09:37:52 pm by Marcory »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2016, 05:33:18 pm »
0

From the wording, it's unclear whether you can do Gold in hand + Silver in play or vice versa.  I'd suggest just trashing from play always, since it would be pretty rare that you'd have to trash it from your hand.  Normally you would just always play the Gold and Silver if you had them.

Is there any reason to cost it at $2 specifically, rather than $5 (from the Gold and Silver you played) or more?

I think that this may be too cheap.  It's as strong as Platinum but probably a lot easier to buy.  Trashing Silver is actually pretty good for you.  Trashing Gold hurts a little more.  Ah, I guess it's tougher to buy more of them, since you can't really use Electrum to pay for more Electrum.  Hm.  I guess it's alright, but not that interesting to me.
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Max

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2016, 04:49:58 pm »
0

This is a big hitter, it needs to be less of one. You need to coincide a gold and silver to reach it, but that's how a lot of golds are bought after the first.

I like trashing treasures to gain. Trashing a silver and a gold for one better card is actually really good. But the top decking of a 5 is another big gain.

So this card would dominate games. Which isn't exciting. But you also want this to be viable in games with platinum.

My suggestions:
this should cost 5. It means you can't mine a copper into it, but it also means that you can't use your played silver and gold for buys after they've been trashed. Since you have to have 5 in hand to begin with it seems reasonable. (Unless you want a hand with a woodcutter, a silver and two golds to be able to buy electrum and a province)
You probably don't want top decking. That makes this card even better. Maybe too much so.
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Elestan

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2016, 05:04:41 pm »
0

Electrum Treasure $2

I would also have it cost $5, and not top-deck. 

If you want a fun twist, add:  "When you trash this, gain a Gold and a Silver".

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Max

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2016, 05:06:21 pm »
0

You should have optional top-decking when you trash, just to be contrary :)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2016, 05:07:42 pm »
0

Oh, the reason why it allows trashing from hand is in combination with gainers.  Duh.  And I guess the $2 cost is so it works with even weak gainers like Hermit.  Hmm, alright then.
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Max

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2016, 05:38:45 pm »
0

I don't like the idea of someone using storyteller that gets treasures in play, then getting to trash those when they only draw two coppers. That seems too cheap to me. A 4 cost could be fine, then workshop would be happy.
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navical

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2016, 08:11:19 pm »
0

I think people are misunderstanding the card. The point is that it allows you to thin by one card without losing buying power. $2 seems like a reasonable price for that?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2016, 08:15:18 pm »
0

I think people are misunderstanding the card. The point is that it allows you to thin by one card without losing buying power. $2 seems like a reasonable price for that?

No... Compare a card that says "Gain a Copper and a Silver" to a card that says "Gain a Gold." The former is worse than basically every existing Silver gainer, and there's multiple Silver gainers that do more than just gain silver. Heck, Workshop is way better than the former card... Gaining a Silver and a Copper is much worse than just gaining a Silver.

"Gain a Gold" could probably be a fair $5 card.
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Marcory

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2016, 08:32:05 pm »
+1

I think people are misunderstanding the card. The point is that it allows you to thin by one card without losing buying power. $2 seems like a reasonable price for that?

No... Compare a card that says "Gain a Copper and a Silver" to a card that says "Gain a Gold." The former is worse than basically every existing Silver gainer, and there's multiple Silver gainers that do more than just gain silver. Heck, Workshop is way better than the former card... Gaining a Silver and a Copper is much worse than just gaining a Silver.

"Gain a Gold" could probably be a fair $5 card.

'Gain a Gold' is almost strictly worse than Soothsayer, because Soothsayer attacks early in the game, when the extra card is less useful to one's opponents. (But I don't want to turn this into a Soothsayer discussion).

The reason it costs $2: trashing the Gold and Silver makes this really cost $7 (maybe I should just have the G/S trashing be from hand and not just from play?). At $3 or $4, this costs too similar to Platinum.

Basically, electrum (the substance) came to mind, and then I started thinking about a card that could be formed from Gold and Silver (the cards). Also, the first coins in history were electrum, so there's that.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2016, 08:35:41 pm »
0

The reason it costs $2: trashing the Gold and Silver makes this really cost $7 (maybe I should just have the G/S trashing be from hand and not just from play?). At $3 or $4, this costs too similar to Platinum.

Yeah, if that's your intention, it should trash from hand only.  If you allow trashing from play, then you can play G/S for $5, buy this and still have $3 left over.  It costs $2 as it says on the card, not $7.
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Marcory

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2016, 08:51:55 pm »
0

Ok; I'll amend the OP.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2016, 05:00:42 pm »
0

I think people are misunderstanding the card. The point is that it allows you to thin by one card without losing buying power. $2 seems like a reasonable price for that?

No... Compare a card that says "Gain a Copper and a Silver" to a card that says "Gain a Gold." The former is worse than basically every existing Silver gainer, and there's multiple Silver gainers that do more than just gain silver. Heck, Workshop is way better than the former card... Gaining a Silver and a Copper is much worse than just gaining a Silver.

"Gain a Gold" could probably be a fair $5 card.

'Gain a Gold' is almost strictly worse than Soothsayer, because Soothsayer attacks early in the game, when the extra card is less useful to one's opponents. (But I don't want to turn this into a Soothsayer discussion).

You're right of course, and I was thinking that Soothsayer cost $6 for some reason. But really the point is that "gain a gold" is a pretty good card, while "gain a Silver and a Copper" is a terrible card.


Do you realize that with the way you require the trashing, you can get around it with Watchtower, Royal Seal, or Travelling Fair? You could make it cost $7 and allow you to play the Gold and Silver first....
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 05:01:44 pm by GendoIkari »
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Marcory

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2016, 06:37:01 pm »
0

I think people are misunderstanding the card. The point is that it allows you to thin by one card without losing buying power. $2 seems like a reasonable price for that?

No... Compare a card that says "Gain a Copper and a Silver" to a card that says "Gain a Gold." The former is worse than basically every existing Silver gainer, and there's multiple Silver gainers that do more than just gain silver. Heck, Workshop is way better than the former card... Gaining a Silver and a Copper is much worse than just gaining a Silver.

"Gain a Gold" could probably be a fair $5 card.

'Gain a Gold' is almost strictly worse than Soothsayer, because Soothsayer attacks early in the game, when the extra card is less useful to one's opponents. (But I don't want to turn this into a Soothsayer discussion).

You're right of course, and I was thinking that Soothsayer cost $6 for some reason. But really the point is that "gain a gold" is a pretty good card, while "gain a Silver and a Copper" is a terrible card.


Do you realize that with the way you require the trashing, you can get around it with Watchtower, Royal Seal, or Travelling Fair? You could make it cost $7 and allow you to play the Gold and Silver first....

That's true, but if I do it your way, the card doesn't work with Mint/Mine/Hero, cards that directly interact with Treasures.

What about:

----------
You cannot gain this unless you reveal a Silver and a Gold from your hand. If you do, trash the revealed cards and gain this.

==========
That lets you spend $2 to trash a single Silver or Gold if you really want to, but that's no biggie. The 'you can't' is rather inelegant, but I don't know how else to make this work with both buying and Gainers.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2016, 06:38:55 pm »
+2

I think you can go with your original wording, except with "when you would gain" instead.  And maybe "gain this to the top of your deck" for the "if you did" so it's still clear that you do gain it in that case.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 06:40:03 pm by eHalcyon »
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Marcory

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2016, 08:10:25 pm »
+1

Version 0.3

Electrum Treasure $2

$5
--------------
When you would gain this, trash a Gold and Silver from your hand.
If you did, gain this to the top of your deck.
If you didn't, this stays in the Supply.


How's this one? (also in the OP above)
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eHalcyon

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2016, 09:15:31 pm »
+1

I think it solves all the mechanical issues.  Oh, it should say "you may trash" for accountability.

Have you playtested?  I think the comparison to Platinum is going to be the important thing, and I'm not sure how interesting it is when both are in the kingdom.  There's certainly a difference, but do you always just go for Platinum, or always Electrum, or some of both?  I'm thinking Electrum might be bought opportunistically and then it would help bootstrap to Platinum, which is easier to buy after you have Electrum since it doesn't require you to get more Silver/Gold.

I guess it can also be neat on boards without Platinum.  Having and aligning the Silver and Gold may prove to be an interesting challenge.  It's growing on me.
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Marcory

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Re: Electrum
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2016, 09:39:20 pm »
+1

I'll try to test it this weekend with my wife. With a toddler and another one on the way, it can be challenging to actually set up and play any games, though.

My guess is that you'd get this when you can, given that it topdecks and clears a Silver out of your deck. But losing the Gold might be painful, especially when you're greening.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 09:41:23 pm by Marcory »
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