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Author Topic: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond  (Read 6144 times)

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Seprix

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2016, 12:03:18 am »
0

Getting enough draw, coins and buys is tricky, without any of the tokens which Champion Teacher can put on piles. The details are the hard part  :)
Buys: Travelling Fair
Coins: Mining Village/Rogue
Draw: Fortress

The only trouble now is getting enough rogue plays.

Fortress draw. YES. Of course.

I don't like the Mining Village play so much, too much to gain back with Rogue.
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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2016, 12:04:57 am »
0

Florrat did it. Everyone upvote him.
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liopoil

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2016, 12:07:16 am »
0

Rogue cannot gain King's Court. If you play a highway you can't get amb back. I think you need procession.

Nevermind, ferry token^^

What is OE for?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 12:09:49 am by liopoil »
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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2016, 12:08:09 am »
0

Rogue cannot gain King's Court

Ferry on King's Court.

math

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2016, 12:14:11 am »
0

What is OE for?

There's no way to trash it, so it has to stay.  Same with hovel.
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Elanchana

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2016, 12:14:31 am »
+2

I can do it with 5 kingdom cards and 2 events, without durations or teacher-tokens and even without Black Market. This is in a solo game; with opponents I need every opponent to have a Moat in hand, which adds 1 kingdom pile.

Kingdom: Ambassador, Villa, Rogue, King's Court, Council Room
Events: Ferry, Bonfire
shelter game

Preparation: Put Ferry token on KC. Get a deck consisting of KC*6, Amb, Rogue*4, Villa*4, CR*3, Overgrown Estate, Hovel. Trash all starting copper and Necropolis and make sure at least the following is in the trash: KC*4, Amb*1, Rogue*4, Villa*2, CR (trash with Bonfire).

Start your infinite turn when you have KC*2, CR*2 (this will eventually always happen). Play KC-KC-CR-CR-Villa to draw your deck.

-- START LOOP -- (hand consist of KC*4, Amb*1, Rogue*4, Villa*3, CR (and OE), trash consists of KC*4, Amb*1, Rogue*4, Villa*2, CR)
Now play your 4 KCs in a chain to play 7 actions three times:
play 4 Rogues three times, to gain KC*4, Amb, Rogue*4, Villa*2, CR
play CR three times to draw your deck.
play 2 Villas three times.

Play Ambassador, returning a Villa.

You gained 30 coins and 9 buys by this KC-chain. Go to the buy phase and buy Bonfire 6 times to trash 4*KC, 4*Rogue, CR, Villa*2, Amb. Buy a Villa to return to your action phase, and repeat the loop.
-- END LOOP --

Every iteration of the loop gives 8 coins and 2 buys, so you can get arbitrarily much coins and buys by doing this as often as you like (however, not infinitely many, since that takes infinite time)


EDIT: simplify a little bit.
EDIT 2: Had to make some minor changes because you cannot trash hovel without having a victory card in your deck in this kingdom.

I think I might have been bested.



That still is a bit reliant on shuffle luck though, on a very technical level. My own solution is completely luckless to get started.
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florrat

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2016, 12:20:30 am »
0

That still is a bit reliant on shuffle luck though, on a very technical level. My own solution is completely luckless to get started.
Eventually you'll hit every starting hand (with probability 1).

If that's not okay you can solve it by using Black Market and putting Scrying Pool, Council Room and Hunting Ground in the BM deck. You can then initially draw your deck with SP, and use CR and HG for draw (the disadvantage is that the on-trash ability of HG caused me headaches, you need a bit extra draw to draw those annoying Duchies (but that can be easily solved by putting some extra cards in the BM deck)).
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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2016, 12:23:35 am »
+2

That still is a bit reliant on shuffle luck though, on a very technical level. My own solution is completely luckless to get started.
Eventually you'll hit every starting hand (with probability 1).

If that's not okay you can solve it by using Black Market and putting Scrying Pool, Council Room and Hunting Ground in the BM deck. You can then initially draw your deck with SP, and use CR and HG for draw (the disadvantage is that the on-trash ability of HG caused me headaches, you need a bit extra draw to draw those annoying Duchies (but that can be easily solved by putting some extra cards in the BM deck)).

Just Hireling should be enough to guarantee having your deck in hand at the beginning of the turn. When a Hireling comes around play it. Then Bonfire it when you have $3. Then Rogue it when you have Rogue in hand. Eventually you can get any starting handsize you want.

Elanchana

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2016, 12:23:52 am »
0

That still is a bit reliant on shuffle luck though, on a very technical level. My own solution is completely luckless to get started.
Eventually you'll hit every starting hand (with probability 1).

If that's not okay you can solve it by using Black Market and putting Scrying Pool, Council Room and Hunting Ground in the BM deck. You can then initially draw your deck with SP, and use CR and HG for draw (the disadvantage is that the on-trash ability of HG caused me headaches, you need a bit extra draw to draw those annoying Duchies (but that can be easily solved by putting some extra cards in the BM deck)).

I'm not saying that your solution isn't good. It is. It's pretty damn awesome.

I'm just saying there's a way you can start with only 5 cards in your deck.
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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2016, 12:39:14 am »
0

That still is a bit reliant on shuffle luck though, on a very technical level. My own solution is completely luckless to get started.
Eventually you'll hit every starting hand (with probability 1).

If that's not okay you can solve it by using Black Market and putting Scrying Pool, Council Room and Hunting Ground in the BM deck. You can then initially draw your deck with SP, and use CR and HG for draw (the disadvantage is that the on-trash ability of HG caused me headaches, you need a bit extra draw to draw those annoying Duchies (but that can be easily solved by putting some extra cards in the BM deck)).

I'm not saying that your solution isn't good. It is. It's pretty damn awesome.

I'm just saying there's a way you can start with only 5 cards in your deck.

If I had to guess I would say it involves Inherited Villas and Hunting Grounds.

trivialknot

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2016, 03:37:07 am »
+1

Here's a solution using a five-card deck.  It has no durations, no princes, and the only token is Ferry.

Setup: Ferry on KC
In trash: KC, KC, Rogue, Rogue, BoM, Villa, Villa, Villa
In Hand: KC, KC, Rogue, Rogue, BoM.  These are the only cards in your deck.

Part A:
Play KC-KC-R-R-BoM
Rogues: gain KC, KC, R, R, BoM, Villa
BoM: Mining Village (trashing itself), Salvager (trashing Villa), Watchtower (drawing KC, KC, R, R, BoM)
1 Travelling fairs
2 Bonfires: trash KC, KC, R, R
Buy Villa

Part B:
Play KC-KC-R-R-BoM
Rogues: gain KC, KC, R, R, BoM, Villa
BoM: Mining Village (trashing itself), Ambassador (returning two Villas to supply), Watchtower (drawing KC, KC, R, R, BoM)
3 Travelling Fairs
2 Bonfires: trash KC, KC, R, R
Buy Villa, play it.

Part C:
Play KC-KC-R-R-BoM
Rogues: gain KC, KC, R, R, BoM, Villa
BoM: Mining Village (trashing itself), Salvager (trashing Villa), Watchtower (drawing KC, KC, R, R, BoM)
2 Travelling Fairs
3 Bonfires: trash KC, KC, R, R, Villa, Villa
Buy Villa

It starts out with AB, then loops ABCB,ABCB...
Payoff from A: 6
Payoff from B: -1
Payoff from C: 1
Unique cards: 8 + 3 events
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Davio

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2016, 06:34:05 am »
0

You know, I read through these step-by-step walkthroughs one line at a time and still don't get them.
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Elanchana

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2016, 09:49:16 am »
0

Here's a solution using a five-card deck.  It has no durations, no princes, and the only token is Ferry.

Setup: Ferry on KC
In trash: KC, KC, Rogue, Rogue, BoM, Villa, Villa, Villa
In Hand: KC, KC, Rogue, Rogue, BoM.  These are the only cards in your deck.

Part A:
Play KC-KC-R-R-BoM
Rogues: gain KC, KC, R, R, BoM, Villa
BoM: Mining Village (trashing itself), Salvager (trashing Villa), Watchtower (drawing KC, KC, R, R, BoM)
1 Travelling fairs
2 Bonfires: trash KC, KC, R, R
Buy Villa

Part B:
Play KC-KC-R-R-BoM
Rogues: gain KC, KC, R, R, BoM, Villa
BoM: Mining Village (trashing itself), Ambassador (returning two Villas to supply), Watchtower (drawing KC, KC, R, R, BoM)
3 Travelling Fairs
2 Bonfires: trash KC, KC, R, R
Buy Villa, play it.

Part C:
Play KC-KC-R-R-BoM
Rogues: gain KC, KC, R, R, BoM, Villa
BoM: Mining Village (trashing itself), Salvager (trashing Villa), Watchtower (drawing KC, KC, R, R, BoM)
2 Travelling Fairs
3 Bonfires: trash KC, KC, R, R, Villa, Villa
Buy Villa

It starts out with AB, then loops ABCB,ABCB...
Payoff from A: 6
Payoff from B: -1
Payoff from C: 1
Unique cards: 8 + 3 events


Nice one!!

When should I post my solution, by the way? There are obviously a lot of ways to do this, but only one (that I've found anyway) that satisfies all hard mode conditions (which I'll admit were somewhat arbitrary).
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faust

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2016, 10:17:35 am »
+3

I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet. f.ds, I am disappointed.

Using Villa as a key card, have a turn that can generate infinite coins and buys. And when I say infinite, I mean literally infinite.

This is impossible. You cannot play a game in which, at any point, you have "infinite" (what infinity are we even talking about? Countable? Uncountable? Weakly inaccessible?) coins or buys. The best you can hope for is a deck that can generate an arbirtrarily large amount.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 10:23:56 am by faust »
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Seprix

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2016, 10:23:01 am »
0

I'm not saying that your solution isn't good. It is. It's pretty damn awesome.

I'm just saying there's a way you can start with only 5 cards in your deck.

Make like a Moat and reveal, please.
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Elestan

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2016, 11:05:09 am »
0

Would the playtester who first figured out this combo like to step up and take a bow for it?  A nice bit of work, that.
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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2016, 03:47:28 pm »
+2

I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet. f.ds, I am disappointed.
You don't have to be disappointed:
[...] so you can get arbitrarily much coins and buys by doing this as often as you like (however, not infinitely many, since that takes infinite time)

However, today I realized this new way of getting arbitrarily many buys and coins is "better" (in some sense) than what could previously be done with Champion/Diadem(/Travelling Fair). Using those cards, you can also get arbitrarily much coins and buys in a single turn. However, this solution is "better", because you only need some fixed amount of preparation time, and then you can get arbitrarily much coins/buys in the next turn. With Champion/Diadem the amount of preparation time you need scales with how much coins/buys you want.

If this wasn't clear, let me try to explain it in a different way. Suppose you want 10^1000 coins. Using Villa, this can be done in less than 20 turns, although the turn where you get all those coins will take a very long time. Using Champion/Diadem, this will probably take at least 10^900 turns of set-up time.
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Elanchana

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2016, 10:25:19 pm »
+4

So, I guess people want me to post my expert mode solution - I'm sorry I didn't do this sooner, but f.ds was down for like a whole day. Anyway...

Kingdom includes: Lighthouse (if non-solo), Ambassador, Villa, City, Rogue, King's Court
Events: Bonfire, Ferry
Setup: -$2 token on King's Court, all opponents defended, 2 piles empty

Hand: 2xKing's Court, 2xRogue, City, Villa*
Deck/discard: empty
Trash includes: 4xKing's Court, 4xRogue, 3xCity, Ambassador
*(The Villa is not in your hand at the very start of the turn, but it is there at the start of each subsequent cycle.)

ACTION PHASE
Play King's Court
-> Play King's Court
->> Play Rogue, gain King's Court (+$2)
->> Replay Rogue, gain Rogue (+$2)
->> Replay Rogue, gain City (+$2)
-> Replay King's Court
->> Play City, draw King's Court, Rogue (+1 buy, +$1)
->> Replay City, draw City (+1 buy, +$1)
->> Replay City, draw nothing (+1 buy, +$1)
-> Replay King's Court
->> Play King's Court
->>> Play Rogue, gain King's Court (+$2)
->>> Replay Rogue, gain Rogue (+$2)
->>> Replay Rogue, gain City (+$2)
->> Replay King's Court
->>> Play City, draw King's Court, Rogue (+1 buy, +$1)
->>> Replay City, draw City (+1 buy, +$1)
->>> Replay City, draw nothing (+1 buy, +$1)
->> Replay King's Court
->>> Play King's Court
->>>> Play Rogue, gain King's Court (+$2)
->>>> Replay Rogue, gain King's Court (+$2)
->>>> Replay Rogue, gain Rogue (+$2)
->>> Replay King's Court
->>>> Play Rogue, gain Rogue (+$2)
->>>> Replay Rogue, gain City (+$2)
->>>> Replay Rogue, gain Ambassador (+$2)
->>> Replay King's Court
->>>> Play City, draw 2xKing's Court (+1 buy, +$1)
->>>> Replay City, draw 2xRogue (+1 buy, +$1)
->>>> Replay City, draw City, Ambassador (+1 buy, +$1)
Play Ambassador, return Villa*
BUY PHASE
$33, 10 buys
Buy Bonfire, trash 2xKing's Court (-1 buy, -$3)
Buy Bonfire, trash 2xKing's Court (-1 buy, -$3)
Buy Bonfire, trash 2xRogue (-1 buy, -$3)
Buy Bonfire, trash 2xRogue (-1 buy, -$3)
Buy Bonfire, trash 2xCity (-1 buy, -$3)
Buy Bonfire, trash City, Ambassador (-1 buy, -$3)
Buy Villa, put into hand, return to action phase, restart cycle (-1 buy, -$4)

TOTAL ACCUMULATION PER CYCLE: $12, 3 buys

I do realize this is messy as all hell. There was a version with only 2 King's Courts that was MUCH cleaner but it didn't accumulate buys (this was when I wanted to do an infinite turn challenge rather than an infinite coins/buys one). L3 Cities are perfect for this - you rack up coins and buys, draw everything you need, and the nonterminality means you don't need to use a KC slot on Ambassador. Do you guys think that's cheating though?


Here's an open-ended challenge for anyone who wants to try: Can you make this work without KC? I got REALLY close but there were roadblocks I couldn't get past without tripling. No need to satisfy any hard modes - just the main goal of (theoretically) infinite buying power.
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Seprix

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2016, 10:53:30 pm »
0

Probably possible with Crown.
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math

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2016, 10:55:41 pm »
+1

Probably possible with Crown.

You're never playing any Treasures, so Crown won't help; you could replace it with Throne Room and get the same result.
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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2016, 02:57:34 am »
+1

Here's an open-ended challenge for anyone who wants to try: Can you make this work without KC? I got REALLY close but there were roadblocks I couldn't get past without tripling. No need to satisfy any hard modes - just the main goal of (theoretically) infinite buying power.

The limiting factor is getting cards from play back into your hand.  You can do that by trashing the card and retrieving it from the trash with Rogue or Graverobber.  But every time you play Rogue or Graverobber, you've just put another card into play.  And if you throne a Rogue, you get two cards out of play, but you also put two into play.  Any combination of Rogues, Throne Rooms, Processions, Crowns, and Royal Carriages will never get more cards out of play than you put in.  Only King's Court.

But! Maybe Crown does provide an exception after all.  If you buy a Mandarin, that puts all treasures in play on top of your deck.
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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2016, 12:28:48 pm »
0

Here's an open-ended challenge for anyone who wants to try: Can you make this work without KC? I got REALLY close but there were roadblocks I couldn't get past without tripling. No need to satisfy any hard modes - just the main goal of (theoretically) infinite buying power.

The limiting factor is getting cards from play back into your hand.  You can do that by trashing the card and retrieving it from the trash with Rogue or Graverobber.  But every time you play Rogue or Graverobber, you've just put another card into play.  And if you throne a Rogue, you get two cards out of play, but you also put two into play.  Any combination of Rogues, Throne Rooms, Processions, Crowns, and Royal Carriages will never get more cards out of play than you put in.  Only King's Court.

But! Maybe Crown does provide an exception after all.  If you buy a Mandarin, that puts all treasures in play on top of your deck.
Hmmmm... Crown does sound like a possible workaround to the actions-in-play problem. And in that case you'd double Ambassador as well to put Villa AND Mandarin back (buying the Mandarin first later). Lemme pull out my unfinished Procession solution and try to get back to you on this...
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majiponi

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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2016, 03:31:56 am »
0

LUNATIC MODE: 2-player game, your opponent tries to prevent your combo. (Your opponent won't play Lighthouse, reveal Moat.)
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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2016, 02:09:31 pm »
+5

Lunatic mode: During a turn before you play your turn, play Masquerade, passing Champion, and play Possession. On the Possession turn, force him to play Champion. Now you can execute your turn as normal.
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Re: Villa: To Infinity and Beyond
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2016, 08:04:09 pm »
0

Lunatic mode: During a turn before you play your turn, play Masquerade, passing Champion, and play Possession. On the Possession turn, force him to play Champion. Now you can execute your turn as normal.
Excellent!
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