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Author Topic: The One-card Shuffle  (Read 20488 times)

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eHalcyon

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #75 on: May 18, 2016, 04:34:17 pm »
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Maybe a poll of mathematicians would give a different to one of the general populace!
Absolutely, and that has been one of my main points. This forum has an over-representation of math nerds, so of course you will get a reply heavily towards the mathematically correct answer.

Citation needed.

Seriously though, I think f.ds is a lot like BGG.  A lot of the people commenting may be math nerds, but this is just a vocal minority.  There are a lot of lurkers out there too though.
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #76 on: May 18, 2016, 04:51:40 pm »
0

Citation needed.

Seriously though, I think f.ds is a lot like BGG.  A lot of the people commenting may be math nerds, but this is just a vocal minority.  There are a lot of lurkers out there too though.
I have no citation. But it has been said several times in the forums. (That doesn't make it true, but it seems to be a common assumption.) This is a strategy forum, so by definition it is more narrow that BGG.

About 100 people voted. How many more-or-less known math people are among the regular commenters?

Another thing with that poll though, was that it linked to this thread, where practically everybody said that you can shuffle one card, and gave their reasonings, and even said that according to mathematical laws you can shuffle one card. I'm sure that kind of "context" didn't influence the result at all. Bot nobody here sees a problem with that poll. I wonder why.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 04:53:59 pm by Jeebus »
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eHalcyon

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #77 on: May 18, 2016, 05:17:25 pm »
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I don't think anybody claimed that poll was perfect either.
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #78 on: May 18, 2016, 05:29:49 pm »
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I don't think anybody claimed that poll was perfect either.
Are you serious? Not one person complained about it, unlike my post. And it was thumbed. And people even said why it was more valid (because of the "context", one reason I think it's less valid). Also, the poll on page whatever in the BGG thread was taken up as an example of the right kind of question so therefore it got 99% "yes", nobody noting that it's not at all the same deep in a discussion thread (until I said so, then somebody begrudgingly agreed, but then quickly noted that the poll here on f.ds was good though). It's just so obvious that people here only care about whatever supports their predefined view. That's the Internet though, and discussion forums. Nobody wants to hear reasonable and valid arguments if it happens to contradict something they already made up their minds about. I don't know why I thought maybe people were a bit more mature here.

eHalcyon

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #79 on: May 18, 2016, 10:52:42 pm »
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I don't think anybody claimed that poll was perfect either.
Are you serious? Not one person complained about it, unlike my post. And it was thumbed. And people even said why it was more valid (because of the "context", one reason I think it's less valid). Also, the poll on page whatever in the BGG thread was taken up as an example of the right kind of question so therefore it got 99% "yes", nobody noting that it's not at all the same deep in a discussion thread (until I said so, then somebody begrudgingly agreed, but then quickly noted that the poll here on f.ds was good though). It's just so obvious that people here only care about whatever supports their predefined view. That's the Internet though, and discussion forums. Nobody wants to hear reasonable and valid arguments if it happens to contradict something they already made up their minds about. I don't know why I thought maybe people were a bit more mature here.

Yeah I'm serious.  Not complaining doesn't mean that I think it's perfect.

I do think the context of the f.ds poll and the second poll on the BGG thread make them more valid.  I and others both here and in the BGG thread have explained why that context is important, and why your BGG poll kind of drops the ball on that.  I think the discussion has been pretty reasonable so far, but if you want to point at people to say that they only care about their own view, well, maybe point at yourself too.  People brought up good points in the BGG thread and you brushed them off pretty quick.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2016, 12:59:12 am »
+4

I think I'm starting to feel the calling to the dark side...

Let's say that there's a card called Tornado:

Quote
Tornado
$2 Action-Reaction
+1 Card
+1 Action

When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, shuffle your deck.

While this is in play, when you shuffle your deck, you may trash a card from your hand.

Now here's two different situations with the card where I think people will have seemingly contradictory intuitions.

Scenario 1: You play Tornado with an empty draw deck and one card in the discard pile, triggering a re-shuffle.  I think most people will say you can trash a card now, since you shuffled with a Tornado in play.  This is the same as a scenario I proposed before that I think Jeebus disagreed with, but I still maintain that most people would say this counts as shuffling.

Scenario 2: You play Tornado.  Later in the turn, you gain a Nomad Camp with an empty draw pile, and reveal a Tornado from your hand to shuffle your deck.  Now do you get to trash a card, since you shuffled your deck with only one card in it?  I'm guessing most people will say no.  (If you don't agree with me here, think about the same situation but with a non-Nomad Camp card.  You gain a card, and then reveal Tornado to shuffle you empty deck.  I think most people will say this does not count as shuffling.)

So what's the difference between Scenario 1 and 2?  Well I think there are two different ways that people think about shuffling in Dominion.  Usually you think of "shuffle" as meaning "make a new deck out of your discard pile, and randomize its order".  But sometimes (I think currently, only on Inn and maybe Stash?), "shuffle" just means "randomize the order of your deck".  And even though mathematically, you can still randomize the order of an empty or one-card deck, I don't think this is how most people will think of it.

So when people make a new deck out of their one-card discard pile, that feels like I did something with that card, that should be good enough to say I shuffled it.  When I mix up the order of the 1 or 0 cards in my deck, I don't feel like I'm doing anything (because I'm not), so I don't feel like I shuffled.

But really I don't know if these help us answer the question we really care about in the first place.  What we care about is this:

Scenario 3: With an empty deck, you gain a Nomad Camp, and reveal Tornado to shuffle your deck (which now consists of only Nomad Camp).  Now I reveal Watchtower.  Can I trash Nomad Camp, or has it been lost track of?

At least, I think that's what we care about, I've sort of lost track of it by now (no pun intended but it looks so obvious now I feel like people are going to think I'm trying too hard to force the joke).  So I guess this is like Scenario 2, because you don't feel like you shuffled since there's only one card in your deck.  But even if you think that counts as shuffling, that's not sufficient to say it's been lost track of.  It still didn't move, and it didn't get covered up.  Is Watchtower smart enough to realize that the outcome was guaranteed?

Also, I think Stash still messes everything up but Legend of Korra is on in 3 minutes and I don't feel like thinking about this now.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2016, 04:27:27 am »
0

Fwiw: I say 'yes' to 1 and 2.

Shuffling, to me, is an instruction of 'pick up your deck and randomize it as much as possible, within reason'.



And in case of 3: you lost track, even if you accidentally know where it is, imo.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 04:29:40 am by AdrianHealey »
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #82 on: May 19, 2016, 09:19:41 am »
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Yeah I'm serious.  Not complaining doesn't mean that I think it's perfect.
What's the logical fallacy called where you claim something has no truth just because it's not the extreme?
I obviously was not trying to claim that anybody thought it was perfect. So yeah, in addition to the mentioned fallacy, it's a strawman. Congratulations.

I do think the context of the f.ds poll and the second poll on the BGG thread make them more valid.  I and others both here and in the BGG thread have explained why that context is important, and why your BGG poll kind of drops the ball on that.
And I have explained why that "context" is counter-productive (actually prompting you to reply that "well the poll wasn't perfect", which seems contradictory). And nobody bothered to counter that. Of course "ignore" is a great way to kill arguments online. Afterwards you can even pretend they didn't even appear, referring to the greatness of your original arguments as if they were uncontested.

People brought up good points in the BGG thread and you brushed them off pretty quick.
I actually do try to take every argument seriously, and really consider it. I won't say I always succeed. For you I "brushed them off pretty quick", but I tried to take them seriously and reply to them with how I saw it. Just because they made points, doesn't mean I should automatically agree with them, right? Of course mostly nobody bothers to reply to what I reply, so then I'm not really left with anything more to consider.

I'll change my mind because of good arguments. In this thread I started saying that you obviously can't shuffle one card. I changed my mind because of the mathematical definition, thinking that you probably want to use that definition in a game. Then I read some more arguments both ways in the BGG thread, and was not sure anymore. (The way I see it, one definition isn't completely invalid and the other completely valid.)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 09:56:09 am by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2016, 09:43:43 am »
0

And even though mathematically, you can still randomize the order of an empty or one-card deck, I don't think this is how most people will think of it.
That's what I think too, but the others here don't agree. They think that most people will think you did shuffle even if just told to shuffle your deck, for the sake of any trigger that happens when you shuffle. We haven't really drawn any lines between your scenario 1 and 2 up until now, but my impression is that the others here think it doesn't make a difference.

At least, I think that's what we care about, I've sort of lost track of it by now (no pun intended but it looks so obvious now I feel like people are going to think I'm trying too hard to force the joke).  So I guess this is like Scenario 2, because you don't feel like you shuffled since there's only one card in your deck.  But even if you think that counts as shuffling, that's not sufficient to say it's been lost track of.  It still didn't move, and it didn't get covered up.  Is Watchtower smart enough to realize that the outcome was guaranteed?
Well, we care about whether it was actually lost track of, yes. But then there was also the question of what most people would think about shuffling one card, even divorced from lose-track considerations. Like Donald said, if a card said "when you shuffle, +1 VP."

Also, I think Stash still messes everything up but Legend of Korra is on in 3 minutes and I don't feel like thinking about this now.
As I said, I don't see Stash making a difference in any way. If your definition of "shuffling" is a purely physical act involving moving cards around each other, you can do it with several Stashes. If you definition is mathematical ("create random order"), you can do it. If you only care about losing track, well the top Stash is the one we care about, and you can shuffle it in.

theorel

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2016, 04:04:51 pm »
0

fwiw, IMO a very small minority reads the poll question if the title of the thread is a question (I didn't as a single example).  If you had not put a question in your thread title, I would believe the results more strongly.  (Thread title saying "Please give your vote: can you shuffle one card?" means that people are voting on that question, not reading the more nuanced version)

As-is I am surprised by the number of bgg users that say that you can't shuffle one card.  I would simply say:
The question: "do most people believe that you can shuffle a single card?" probably has answer: "no".  As I would say that BGG is still more specialized than general population.

I don't think that's a particularly reasonable position in the abstract-world of game rules, but there are plenty of people that play games without having a complete understanding of the rules.  Many people miss intricacies of rules, and rule-interactions, and sometimes it has a negative effect sometimes not.  It's not persuasive, but the majority viewpoint doesn't need to be persuasive it simply is.

For this particular issue, I don't think that misinterpreting this rule would have a negative impact.  I would be inclined to say you can shuffle a 0-or-1 card deck because it's in line with pedantic game-rules (i.e. MtG), and I think it's better to be in-line with pedantic rules than general intuition.  But what I think on this particular issue isn't necessarily relevant.

As far as interesting side-cases:
Card commands you to shuffle your empty (or single-card) deck (I would count it).
Card commands you to draw and you have empty deck and single-card discard pile (I would count it).
Card commands you to draw and you have empty deck and empty discard pile (I would not count it, because I think the inability to draw a card takes precedence over the shuffling of discard into draw deck...i.e. you can't draw even after you shuffle your discard into draw, so you skip it.  Though, I could be convinced I'm wrong).

FWIW: I'd expect (based on current poll-results) good questioning to return results along the lines of:  (left being people that think shuffling a single card counts as "shuffling")
among mathematicians: 95-5
among fds people: 80-20
among gamers: 60-40
among general population: 30-70
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 04:07:46 pm by theorel »
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eHalcyon

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #85 on: May 19, 2016, 06:03:24 pm »
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Yeah I'm serious.  Not complaining doesn't mean that I think it's perfect.
What's the logical fallacy called where you claim something has no truth just because it's not the extreme?
I obviously was not trying to claim that anybody thought it was perfect. So yeah, in addition to the mentioned fallacy, it's a strawman. Congratulations.

I really don't know what you mean by this.  I said, "I don't think anybody claimed that poll was perfect either."  And you asked me if I was serious.  Yes, I was serious about that.  You sure seemed to be implying that in your post here, but maybe I misinterpreted your passive-aggressiveness there.

I do think the context of the f.ds poll and the second poll on the BGG thread make them more valid.  I and others both here and in the BGG thread have explained why that context is important, and why your BGG poll kind of drops the ball on that.
And I have explained why that "context" is counter-productive (actually prompting you to reply that "well the poll wasn't perfect", which seems contradictory). And nobody bothered to counter that. Of course "ignore" is a great way to kill arguments online. Afterwards you can even pretend they didn't even appear, referring to the greatness of your original arguments as if they were uncontested.

I'm looking back and not seeing where you explained why the context is counter-productive, and I'm not seeing that reply of mine either.  Can you point me to it?  Unless you're talking about this post where, apparently, I misinterpreted your meaning anyway.  I don't think that relates to the context I am talking about though (explained below).

People brought up good points in the BGG thread and you brushed them off pretty quick.
I actually do try to take every argument seriously, and really consider it. I won't say I always succeed. For you I "brushed them off pretty quick", but I tried to take them seriously and reply to them with how I saw it. Just because they made points, doesn't mean I should automatically agree with them, right? Of course mostly nobody bothers to reply to what I reply, so then I'm not really left with anything more to consider.

I'll change my mind because of good arguments. In this thread I started saying that you obviously can't shuffle one card. I changed my mind because of the mathematical definition, thinking that you probably want to use that definition in a game. Then I read some more arguments both ways in the BGG thread, and was not sure anymore. (The way I see it, one definition isn't completely invalid and the other completely valid.)

I do likewise.  That's why I didn't appreciate your passive-aggressive implication that everyone here only care about the stuff that supports their own views.  Likewise, I did not appreciate that you explicitly called everyone here immature, when the discussion until that point seemed pretty civil to me.




I'm pretty sure I already said it earlier, but for the sake of clarity, here's what I think is the necessary context for a poll that will actually answer the question under discussion.

The question is, "Can you shuffle a deck with only one card (or no cards at all)?"

We want this answered in the context of a game's rules and rule interactions, where effects care about when you shuffle.  Note, this is not the same as the context of "Dominion technical stuff", just game rules in general.

Your BGG poll had a title that omitted that context, which is misleading at best.  The actual poll question says it, but it's not clear enough.  There were several people who commented that they answered "no", but would have answered "yes" if they were approaching it in the context which we actually want.  I think I said earlier that it was a "large number" and you said that there were only 3(?) that you counted.  I didn't keep track and it felt like more to me, but I may have been mistaken.  Even so, that's just among the people who bothered to leave a comment (and pretty deep into the conversation too) -- that's from a group that you yourself pointed out is different from the "general" population.  They're the ones who were more likely to read your question thoroughly and understand the desired context... and they still missed it.  How many more people just read the BGG post title and said, "no you can't shuffle a single card, that's physically impossible" and left it at that?  I really don't know the answer to that, but I'd guess that it's non-negligible. 

I don't think any of the polls we've had so far are useful for answering the one-card shuffle question, including the f.ds one.  Sorry for focusing mostly on the flaws of your BGG poll, but that's the one that we were discussing at the time.  Maybe nobody was pointing out the problems with the f.ds poll, but I don't think anybody was holding it up as a paragon of poll design either.  At least I wasn't -- I barely mentioned it at all.

As for the other poll that was in the BGG comments, I said that I thought the question was asked in a good way.  The 99% result was interesting to me, but I never called it the ultimate answer and acknowledged that the context (5ish pages into comments) probably skewed results some.  It doesn't change that the question did a better job (IMO) of providing the necessary context.
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #86 on: May 19, 2016, 07:05:09 pm »
0

I really don't know what you mean by this.  I said, "I don't think anybody claimed that poll was perfect either."  And you asked me if I was serious.  Yes, I was serious about that.  You sure seemed to be implying that in your post here, but maybe I misinterpreted your passive-aggressiveness there.

In that post I said that nobody seemed to have a problem with it. That is not the same as claiming that they thought it was perfect. It just means they found no reason to complain about it, and a few people even thumbed it, and a few people even referred to the results in it in a positive way. I contrasted it to how people commented on my poll. Your only counter to me about this, was that nobody said it was perfect. At first I didn't think you meant that literally, since that would be a strawman argument. I thought you meant to say that nobody thought that poll was very good either. That's why I said, "are you serious". But then you tell me that you meant it literally. So then it is a strawman argument.

The point was the huge disparity in how the two polls were dealt with here, which just happened to coincide with poll results matching people's opinion. (Just a coincidence of course.) The point was not to say that everybody thought that poll was 100% perfect. And it seems like you pretend to think that was the only point. Or maybe you have some language problem, in which case I apologize.

I started to write replies to the rest of your post, but frankly, I see no point. I can tell when no amount of reason will help. Also, it has all been dealt with previously in this thread anyway.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 07:08:55 pm by Jeebus »
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eHalcyon

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #87 on: May 20, 2016, 02:28:17 am »
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In that post I said that nobody seemed to have a problem with it. That is not the same as claiming that they thought it was perfect. It just means they found no reason to complain about it, and a few people even thumbed it, and a few people even referred to the results in it in a positive way. I contrasted it to how people commented on my poll. Your only counter to me about this, was that nobody said it was perfect. At first I didn't think you meant that literally, since that would be a strawman argument. I thought you meant to say that nobody thought that poll was very good either. That's why I said, "are you serious". But then you tell me that you meant it literally. So then it is a strawman argument.

It wasn't meant to be a strawman.  You said: "nobody here sees a problem with that poll".  Well, nobody was really extolling it as an excellent poll either.  References were made to it in passing, sure, but that's about it.

The point was the huge disparity in how the two polls were dealt with here, which just happened to coincide with poll results matching people's opinion. (Just a coincidence of course.) The point was not to say that everybody thought that poll was 100% perfect. And it seems like you pretend to think that was the only point. Or maybe you have some language problem, in which case I apologize.

Man, I don't think there was a huge disparity.  The f.ds poll was barely mentioned.  People were discussing your BGG poll a lot more because it was the big new poll that you had just brought up for discussion.  People thought there were problems with it, so people were discussing those problems.

I wasn't pretending anything, I was responding what seemed to your main gripe.  Your follow-up only reinforced my read.  You seemed to think people were raising up this other poll as something great when that's not what I've seen at all in this thread.  Your responses make it seem like you feel personally offended, like you thought everybody was out to get you.

But maybe I'm just misreading your tone.  This is the internet, it happens.  Even now, I'm not sure whether your comment about "language problems" is meant to be insulting or if you're being sincere.  No, I don't have language problems.

I started to write replies to the rest of your post, but frankly, I see no point. I can tell when no amount of reason will help. Also, it has all been dealt with previously in this thread anyway.

If you want to put yourself on the side of reason, maybe you shouldn't call everyone immature and unwilling to listen.  Sometimes people disagree.  Sometimes your arguments aren't so convincing.  Reason will help, more if you're not combining it with insults.  But if you want to shut down a conversation, I guess this is as good a way as any.
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Donald X.

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #88 on: May 20, 2016, 02:52:55 am »
+24

So anyway. Some strong feelings on the one-card shuffle issue.

I actually playtested "When you shuffle, +VP" as a Landmark for Empires. It did not make the cut because it just didn't do much. If it had made it though, shuffling one card would have counted as shuffling. I mean uh. Attempting to shuffle one card would have succeeded.

So for now that's the ruling, on this key issue; you can shuffle one card.

Everyone have a safe trip home.
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