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Author Topic: The One-card Shuffle  (Read 18704 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2016, 11:21:07 am »
+6

Count me down for shuffling being defined for all N >= 0.  Seems obvious.

So you're one of those elitist exclusive people who thinks that just because my deck contains -3 cards, that I can't shuffle it.
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2016, 12:36:46 pm »
0

I don't think you can remove context like that though. The question isn't so much "can you shuffle" as it is "should a game consider a deck to have been 'shuffled'?"

I still maintain that saying "you can't shuffle 1 card, but you can shuffle 2", requires you to count your deck every time you go to shuffle it.

I thought removing the context was the whole idea of Donald's question: "what do ordinary people think when told to shuffle one card; do they think they shuffled or what."

If we instead go the route of trying to be as theoretically accurate as possible, and say that it's possible to randomize a set of one (which I concede) then I still say it doesn't change the fact that the card didn't move, which is all that matters for lose-track.

I admit I didn't understand your argument at all. You rely on intuition to realize you only have 1 card? So, why is that wrong? The point is that you realize you only have one card, so you are unable to move that card.

Witherweaver

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2016, 12:40:35 pm »
+8

Count me down for shuffling being defined for all N >= 0.  Seems obvious.

So you're one of those elitist exclusive people who thinks that just because my deck contains -3 cards, that I can't shuffle it.

#NegativeCardinalitiesMatter
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2016, 12:41:56 pm »
+1

I don't think you can remove context like that though. The question isn't so much "can you shuffle" as it is "should a game consider a deck to have been 'shuffled'?"

And I disagree with this. That's asking a leading question. Let's say you ask this: "If you are told to draw three cards, but you don't have any cards to draw, should the game consider you to have drawn the cards?" I bet most people would answer yes. The correct answer in Dominion of course is no. But if you ask: "Can you draw three cards from an empty deck," they would answer no.

Witherweaver

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2016, 01:07:01 pm »
+1

I don't think you can remove context like that though. The question isn't so much "can you shuffle" as it is "should a game consider a deck to have been 'shuffled'?"

And I disagree with this. That's asking a leading question. Let's say you ask this: "If you are told to draw three cards, but you don't have any cards to draw, should the game consider you to have drawn the cards?" I bet most people would answer yes.

I'm not sure people would answer 'yes' to that.
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2016, 03:44:53 pm »
0

I don't think you can remove context like that though. The question isn't so much "can you shuffle" as it is "should a game consider a deck to have been 'shuffled'?"

And I disagree with this. That's asking a leading question. Let's say you ask this: "If you are told to draw three cards, but you don't have any cards to draw, should the game consider you to have drawn the cards?" I bet most people would answer yes.

I'm not sure people would answer 'yes' to that.

At least it leads people more towards a yes than just asking if it's possible to draw from an empty deck. The reason is that while the latter is clearly wrong, the former implies that the issue is whether the game considers that you finished doing what you were instructed to. And in Dominion, yes the game considers that. But no, the game doesn't consider that you drew the cards. So in this case asking that way leads people more to the wrong answer than asking it straight.

Awaclus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2016, 03:52:19 pm »
0

I thought removing the context was the whole idea of Donald's question: "what do ordinary people think when told to shuffle one card; do they think they shuffled or what."

I thought the whole idea of Donald's question was to find out how people would actually play the game without reading the rule book, because that's what relevant. I doubt he worded that question that way specifically in an effort to lead people to answer any given way.
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2016, 04:15:57 pm »
0

I thought removing the context was the whole idea of Donald's question: "what do ordinary people think when told to shuffle one card; do they think they shuffled or what."

I thought the whole idea of Donald's question was to find out how people would actually play the game without reading the rule book, because that's what relevant. I doubt he worded that question that way specifically in an effort to lead people to answer any given way.

Okay, so then the question should be, "If you play a game, and the game instructs you to shuffle your deck, and your deck only has one card in it, can you do it?" Agreed? Do you think this would really make people respond differently than the question I asked?

Awaclus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2016, 04:31:55 pm »
+2

Okay, so then the question should be, "If you play a game, and the game instructs you to shuffle your deck, and your deck only has one card in it, can you do it?" Agreed? Do you think this would really make people respond differently than the question I asked?

Yes.
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-Stef-

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2016, 04:52:21 pm »
+18

Oh my.

This thread is even better then the ones about the definition of combo.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2016, 07:57:53 am »
0

I am also on team 'you can shuffle one card (or zero cards)'.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2016, 09:31:10 am »
+2

I'm also on board with "you can shuffle 1 or 0 cards, but not -1 cards." Shuffling a set of size N is just picking randomly one of N! outcomes, right? 1! and 0! are defined, but -1! is undefined.
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pst

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2016, 10:00:37 am »
+2

I made a poll for this.
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2016, 11:31:05 am »
+1

Note that there are two issues here.

One is whether you can lose track of a card when you are supposed to shuffle that single card. As I've said, it doesn't really matter if you did or didn't shuffle, because in any case the card didn't move, so it wasn't lost track of. (Also note that whether you have stashes, or all your cards have the same name, has absolutely no bearing on this because if you move the top card it's lost track of no matter what.) You could make a poll about whether what I said now is correct or not, but that's a different poll.

The other issue is whether the average player will think that they shuffled and therefore conclude that the card is lost track of. Donald might base his ruling entirely on this, who knows. (Although, the Dark Ages rulebook, as far as I know the only printed version of the lose-track rule, doesn't mention shuffling at all.) I would think that this forum is not really representative of the average player, so I don't see much use of this poll here.

GendoIkari

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2016, 11:38:18 am »
+2

The other issue is whether the average player will think that they shuffled and therefore conclude that the card is lost track of. Donald might base his ruling entirely on this, who knows. (Although, the Dark Ages rulebook, as far as I know the only printed version of the lose-track rule, doesn't mention shuffling at all.) I would think that this forum is not really representative of the average player, so I don't see much use of this poll here.

My problem with this is that I think the average player (without reading the rules carefully) would think other incorrect things such as that the top card of your discard is not lost track of when it is covered up by another card.
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Watno

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2016, 11:45:02 am »
+6

I'm pretty sure the average player doesn't even know the lose-track rule exists.
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Donald X.

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2016, 12:56:24 pm »
+3

I'm pretty sure the average player doesn't even know the lose-track rule exists.
I agree. I think they don't know about that rule, and incidentally would feel like if you were told to shuffle one card and it technically mattered for something that you could do it.
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2016, 02:44:12 pm »
0

My problem with this is that I think the average player (without reading the rules carefully) would think other incorrect things such as that the top card of your discard is not lost track of when it is covered up by another card.

I'm pretty sure the average player doesn't even know the lose-track rule exists.

Well yes, most people don't read rulebooks very carefully and often play by all sorts of wrong rules. Sometimes there's a rules nerd in the group which they can rely on to guide them. But we must be talking about that subset of "ordinary players" who actually know enough to know the lose-track rule, or else Donald's question of "what do ordinary people think" is utterly meaningless. I mean, if they don't know about the lose-track rule, it doesn't matter at all what they think about shuffling one card.

So they either read rulebooks somewhat carefully or have a rules nerd friend who does. I assume they mostly would know the lose-track rule from the Dark Ages rulebook, which doesn't mention shuffling at all (so that makes the question somewhat meaningless after all). It just mentions cards moving and being covered up. So (to get to GendoIkari's post) these players would know about that rule actually.

Donald X.

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2016, 02:57:41 pm »
+5

I mean, if they don't know about the lose-track rule, it doesn't matter at all what they think about shuffling one card.
Well it only matters if they'll ever have the question, which we could hypothetically arrange. It wouldn't have to involve lose-track.

Similarly note that we aren't talking about a question for something that actually happened in a game. It's a question someone realized they could ask after reading your rules document, that came up for the first time in 2016. It does not matter much if shuffling one card is shuffling, any which way.

Which doesn't mean I don't care about getting it right; just putting it in perspective.

I still tentatively lean towards, shuffling one card is shuffling. If a card said "when you shuffle, +1 VP," I'd expect it to work if there was one card, but not zero (there isn't such a card, phew).
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dane-m

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2016, 02:59:51 pm »
+4

I assume they mostly would know the lose-track rule from the Dark Ages rulebook, which doesn't mention shuffling at all (so that makes the question somewhat meaningless after all). It just mentions cards moving and being covered up.
I've been following this discussion and largely leaning towards the "shuffling one card would cause it to be lost track of" opinion without necessarily knowing why that was my gut feeling.  I think I can now come up with an answer with justifies (at least to myself) my gut feeling.

We know that when a card is covered up, it is lost track of even if it is subsequently uncovered (caveat: I can't remember what scenario this applied to, so I might have misremembered the exact details).  We know that the card that is now at the top of the pile is the same one that was there before it was covered up, but the card that was doing the tracking doesn't.  I feel that a similar principle applies to shuffling the deck.  We know that there was only one card in the deck and therefore it has remained at the top, but that is information that isn't known to the card doing the tracking.
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2016, 01:48:39 pm »
0

So I made a poll at BGG, with the question worded exactly as Awaclus agreed would be the right way.
So far more than 750 people have responded, with 54% saying "no you can't" and 33% saying "yes you can".

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1576647/please-give-your-vote-can-you-shuffle-one-card

I had expected more people to say "no" actually.

Another thing is that the discussion in the thread made me doubt my view. You guys had convinced me that it's technically correct to say that you can shuffle one card (although for lose-track it doesn't matter, you still can't lose track). But the question is the definition of "shuffling". Is "shuffling" really the same as "randomizing"? You don't "shuffle" cubes when you randomize them. Of course, when a game tells you to shuffle, randomizing is the aim. But when a game asked you if you shuffled, maybe it didn't ask you if you randomized, but if you actually shuffled. It would depend on the context of course, but I'm saying it's not entirely straight-forward.

eHalcyon

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2016, 02:06:59 pm »
0

So I made a poll at BGG, with the question worded exactly as Awaclus agreed would be the right way.
So far more than 750 people have responded, with 54% saying "no you can't" and 33% saying "yes you can".

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1576647/please-give-your-vote-can-you-shuffle-one-card

I had expected more people to say "no" actually.

Another thing is that the discussion in the thread made me doubt my view. You guys had convinced me that it's technically correct to say that you can shuffle one card (although for lose-track it doesn't matter, you still can't lose track). But the question is the definition of "shuffling". Is "shuffling" really the same as "randomizing"? You don't "shuffle" cubes when you randomize them. Of course, when a game tells you to shuffle, randomizing is the aim. But when a game asked you if you shuffled, maybe it didn't ask you if you randomized, but if you actually shuffled. It would depend on the context of course, but I'm saying it's not entirely straight-forward.

I think you'd get more people saying yes if you provide the context of a rule that triggers when the deck is shuffled.  I'd bet that many of the people saying no are just thinking of the physical action.

Edit: I basically agree with darkmagi:

Quote
The thread title and poll question are 2 different questions.

Title: Can you shuffle 1 card ? (No-in a literal sense)

Poll: If you play a game with cards, and the game instructs you to shuffle your deck, and your deck only has one card in it, can you do it? (Yes-in a rules sense)


Very deceptive polling...


Not that I think you were intentionally deceptive, but I think it's a major source of the disagreement.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 02:11:13 pm by eHalcyon »
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GendoIkari

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2016, 02:10:00 pm »
0

Interesting that 80% of F.DS users said "yes you can" in the poll made here. This seems to strongly imply that the answer to that question is different within the context of Dominion vs "a game with cards" in general. Or something like that.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2016, 02:13:13 pm »
+1

I think the following comment from BGG explains it actually":

Quote
My only hope is that the OP, once he reveals his ulterior motives, doesn't pull a fast one by stating that 'shuffling' means 'the entire mishmash of rules and triggers surrounding a rulebook-instructed activity of shuffling', and instead focuses on just the physical activity of randomising a deck of cards. Otherwise the poll is a pointless word game because you cannot glean from the results what people meant by selecting one of the three options.

Here at F.DS, people answered the poll with the understanding that we were talking about "the entire mishmash of rules and triggers surrounding a rulebook-instructed activity of shuffling".
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eHalcyon

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2016, 02:27:04 pm »
+3

Somebody made a poll in the discussion that's closer in context to the one we're talking about here:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/22697738#22697738

99% say yes you can shuffle one card there...
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