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Author Topic: The One-card Shuffle  (Read 16826 times)

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Jeebus

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The One-card Shuffle
« on: May 08, 2016, 10:54:20 am »
0

  • In "Abilities between turns" you mention "Between turns, the player who last had a turn is considered to be the current player, and so will resolve between-turn abilities first." It is perhaps good to mention that he also gets to choose which ability is resolved first, if there are multiple abilities which he should resolve. Also, you might want to explicitly mention that at this moment this player is not possessed (even if he was possessed during the last turn), so he makes the choice himself. (After writing this I noticed that this is explained in the Possession reference, but I still think it should be included here as well)
  • About the lose track rule: you might want to mention that shuffling your deck will cause every ability to lose track of every card in your deck (even if the top card happens to be still the top card after shuffling). Now that I say this, I actually have a rule question myself: is this also true if your deck consists of only 1 card? So if I have 1 card in my deck, and I shuffle my deck, will abilities lose track of that card in your deck?

Thanks for your feedback! I'll make some of these changes for the next version.
To your rules question: I doubt Donald has ruled on that, but I would assume that one card is unshuffleable; since, you know, it really is. You can't randomize the order of one card, you need at least two.

Donald X.

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2016, 12:13:28 pm »
+3

To your rules question: I doubt Donald has ruled on that, but I would assume that one card is unshuffleable; since, you know, it really is. You can't randomize the order of one card, you need at least two.
I'm tentatively going the other way, but haven't done any research.

"Lose track" causes you to lose track in cases where you haven't lost track. That card goes on top of your discard pile and we all know the other card is right there under it. The point was to have the obscure rule be simple. So in this case the question is, what do ordinary people think when told to shuffle one card; do they think they shuffled or what.
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pst

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2016, 02:52:13 pm »
+4

To your rules question: I doubt Donald has ruled on that, but I would assume that one card is unshuffleable; since, you know, it really is. You can't randomize the order of one card, you need at least two.
I'm tentatively going the other way, but haven't done any research.

"Lose track" causes you to lose track in cases where you haven't lost track. That card goes on top of your discard pile and we all know the other card is right there under it. The point was to have the obscure rule be simple. So in this case the question is, what do ordinary people think when told to shuffle one card; do they think they shuffled or what.

If one card would be seen as unshuffleable that might lead to the question of how to handle a deck with multiple Stashes and one non-Stash, where you can make sure the non-Stash is at the same place afterwards. Lost?
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GendoIkari

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2016, 06:59:29 pm »
+3

To your rules question: I doubt Donald has ruled on that, but I would assume that one card is unshuffleable; since, you know, it really is. You can't randomize the order of one card, you need at least two.
I'm tentatively going the other way, but haven't done any research.

"Lose track" causes you to lose track in cases where you haven't lost track. That card goes on top of your discard pile and we all know the other card is right there under it. The point was to have the obscure rule be simple. So in this case the question is, what do ordinary people think when told to shuffle one card; do they think they shuffled or what.

Strong opinion for the "it counts as shuffled" side, on the grounds that you don't automatically count your cards while shuffling. Sure it may be trivial to know when the count is 1, but then why stop at 1? You can automatically know without counting when it's 2 also, and 3, maybe 4 and 5. Point is, if you don't count at all, you rely on intuition to know that the deck contains only 1 card when you go to shuffle it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2016, 07:11:47 pm »
+1

FWIW, MTG counts a library as having been shuffled even if it contains 0 or 1 card when you shuffle it.
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2016, 12:45:08 am »
+1

To me it's pretty clear. You didn't shuffle. It's not possible to shuffle one card, per definition. And I strongly doubt most people would think they shuffled one card.

You are told to shuffle, you try to, but you can't. Did you follow the instruction? Yes, you did as much as you could. Did you shuffle? No.

No card moved, so nothing was lost track of.

In the example with Stashes the card is lost track of. When there is more than one card, you shuffle. Whether the player knows where the card is, doesn't matter. The only thing that matters for lose-track is that the card moved, even if it moved back. (And I'm including being covered by another card as moving, because it goes from being on the top of a pile to not being on the top.)

Donald X.

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2016, 01:31:38 am »
+1

To me it's pretty clear. You didn't shuffle. It's not possible to shuffle one card, per definition. And I strongly doubt most people would think they shuffled one card.
Well I'm happy to continue gathering data.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2016, 01:40:30 am »
+3

I feel that if you have any cards in deck, then technically, you shuffle said deck, at least rules wise.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2016, 03:21:24 am »
+7

My intuition strongly says that shuffling one card counts as shuffling.  That seems like it would make the Stash interaction simpler.  Shuffling just means randomizing the order of all the cards in your deck.  That there happens to be only one outcome is irrelevant.  What if I and all other players know my deck consists only of Copper (more than one Copper).  Do I not shuffle then because there is only one outcome?  I think this is a natural extension of the reasoning that you would need if you wanted to conclude that shuffling one card is not shuffling.

But really it's just about what feels right, and I'm skeptical that most people would disagree with me.  It especially feels more natural with other Dominion rules to me, but I'm not sure why.

Is Inn relevant?  What if I want to shuffle one card into an empty deck?  Is it not shuffling, even though Inn specifically tells me that what I'm doing is shuffling that card into my deck?
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spiralstaircase

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2016, 04:04:51 am »
+2

It seems like the things that care about shuffling care about the act of preparing a new deck with the contents of your discard, not about the number of cards involved in that act.
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qmech

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2016, 04:16:52 am »
+11

A random permutation of a singleton set is still a random permutation.
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faust

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2016, 04:55:30 am »
+3

I would go as far as saying that if you play a draw card with a empty deck and discard, you would still shuffle that empty discard pile.
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SCSN

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2016, 06:15:44 am »
+18

This touches on a fundamental question: if you're told to shuffle, but there's no card there to do it with, should the client still play a sound?
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Watno

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2016, 06:54:14 am »
0

Also, should it show the awesome animation of your deck being shuffled?
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Accatitippi

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2016, 07:04:32 am »
0

Also, should it show the awesome animation of your deck being shuffled?

I think the quantity and brightness of sparkles should be a linear function of the number of cards that you shuffled. That way, you always get that important piece of information.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2016, 08:47:50 am »
0


Is Inn relevant?  What if I want to shuffle one card into an empty deck?  Is it not shuffling, even though Inn specifically tells me that what I'm doing is shuffling that card into my deck?

Yeah I think Inn is key here. If "shuffling 1 card" were an impossible to follow instruction, then it could follow that if you gain Inn while your draw deck is empty, that you cannot shuffle only the Inn into your draw pile, and thus the Inn would have to stay in the discard. (The instruction is not "put Inn on top of your draw pile. Shuffle your draw pile.")
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2016, 09:43:26 am »
0

My intuition strongly says that shuffling one card counts as shuffling.  That seems like it would make the Stash interaction simpler.  Shuffling just means randomizing the order of all the cards in your deck.  That there happens to be only one outcome is irrelevant.  What if I and all other players know my deck consists only of Copper (more than one Copper).  Do I not shuffle then because there is only one outcome?  I think this is a natural extension of the reasoning that you would need if you wanted to conclude that shuffling one card is not shuffling.
This one is easy to refute. In Dominion all Copper is not created equal. I fear you are losing track of the fact that this is about lose-track. :) The only card that can be kept track of in your deck is the card on top of your deck. It has absolutely no relevance if it has the same name as the rest of your cards in your deck. If you shuffle it in, it's lost track of. It was that Copper, the one on top of your deck, that abilities kept track of. This is the essence: Did the card move? There's no way for it to move if it's physically impossible to shuffle it.

But really it's just about what feels right, and I'm skeptical that most people would disagree with me.  It especially feels more natural with other Dominion rules to me, but I'm not sure why.
Maybe these two earlier rulings by Donald will help.
1) If you have Inn on top of your discard pile and screw around with the order of your discard pile while at the same time keeping Inn as the top card, Inn did not move and is not lost track of.
2) If an ability tells you to shuffle an already shuffled deck before any card is moved to your deck, you don't shuffle, because it's already shuffled.

Yeah I think Inn is key here. If "shuffling 1 card" were an impossible to follow instruction, then it could follow that if you gain Inn while your draw deck is empty, that you cannot shuffle only the Inn into your draw pile, and thus the Inn would have to stay in the discard. (The instruction is not "put Inn on top of your draw pile. Shuffle your draw pile.")
Yes, it must be. "Shuffle the cards into your deck" must be shorthand for "put the cards into your deck, and shuffle it." Anything else is madness. "Shuffling cards into a deck" is not defined as an action you can do in Dominion, and also doesn't exist in real life, except maybe by accomplished close-up magicians.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 10:12:53 am by Jeebus »
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Polk5440

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2016, 11:29:34 am »
+2

Whether you can shuffle a single card or not (or no card or not) is essentially a matter of definition. As a standalone question it's perfectly reasonable to say "you can't shuffle 0 or 1 cards" or "you can shuffle 0 or 1 cards".

What really matters is what follows from picking one definition over the other.

Here's how you decide whether you can shuffle 1 card (or no cards): Pick the definition that best makes things work out "as they should".

We have an intuitive idea of how Dominion cards and interactions should work most of the time. And Donald, of course, knows his intentions with how things should work. If you pick one definition and it leads to non-intuitive rules rulings more often than not, then you've picked the wrong definition.
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Donald X.

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2016, 12:20:46 pm »
+4

What really matters is what follows from picking one definition over the other.
I think the only thing that matters here is, one definition will in some very small number of circumstances cause more players to guess correctly as to what will happen.
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Awaclus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2016, 12:24:57 pm »
+1

I think that people are usually more inclined to think that they can do something (in this case, shuffling a deck with 0 or 1 cards in it) technically, even if they can't do it physically.
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Polk5440

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2016, 01:29:42 pm »
0

What really matters is what follows from picking one definition over the other.
I think the only thing that matters here is, one definition will in some very small number of circumstances cause more players to guess correctly as to what will happen.

Then that's the definition you pick. That's my point.
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Jeebus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2016, 10:14:32 am »
0

I think that people are usually more inclined to think that they can do something (in this case, shuffling a deck with 0 or 1 cards in it) technically, even if they can't do it physically.
I really don't think so.

So far I've asked 12 people this question, without context: "Can you shuffle one card? That is, if you have a deck consisting of one card, can you shuffle that deck?"
8 said no. 3 said yes, at least 2 of them math people. 1 said yes because he knows that's how it works in Magic.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 10:17:34 am by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2016, 10:22:46 am »
+1

I think that people are usually more inclined to think that they can do something (in this case, shuffling a deck with 0 or 1 cards in it) technically, even if they can't do it physically.
I really don't think so.

So far I've asked 12 people this question, without context: "Can you shuffle one card? That is, if you have a deck consisting of one card, can you shuffle that deck?"
8 said no. 3 said yes, at least 2 of them math people. 1 said yes because he knows that's how it works in Magic.

I don't think you can remove context like that though. The question isn't so much "can you shuffle" as it is "should a game consider a deck to have been 'shuffled'?"

I still maintain that saying "you can't shuffle 1 card, but you can shuffle 2", requires you to count your deck every time you go to shuffle it.
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Awaclus

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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2016, 10:42:34 am »
+1

I think that people are usually more inclined to think that they can do something (in this case, shuffling a deck with 0 or 1 cards in it) technically, even if they can't do it physically.
I really don't think so.

So far I've asked 12 people this question, without context: "Can you shuffle one card? That is, if you have a deck consisting of one card, can you shuffle that deck?"
8 said no. 3 said yes, at least 2 of them math people. 1 said yes because he knows that's how it works in Magic.

That's because, without context, they think you're asking them if it's possible to do it physically. In context, they don't think that, because everyone intuitively understands that game mechanics and what's going on with the physical game pieces aren't exactly the same when you play Thief, you just take your opponent's Treasure directly from them without putting it into the trash pile first and then taking it from there, but nobody is going to argue that it doesn't trigger Market Square because the Treasure wasn't physically in the trash.
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Re: The One-card Shuffle
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2016, 11:04:16 am »
+1

Count me down for shuffling being defined for all N >= 0.  Seems obvious. 
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