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Author Topic: Empires Previews #1: Debt  (Read 170652 times)

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Jeebus

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #350 on: May 13, 2016, 06:52:59 pm »
0

Even with this definition (in my quote), when you buy Stonemason, you did not buy a card that costs debt.  Therefore the condition "you can only take debt tokens when you buy a card that costs that much debt' is not met.  Therefore you can't take debt tokens.

Ah, I finally understand what you're saying.
Ok, so I should have written this instead: "Not if the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you pay for a card that costs that much debt." (I mean, since we're talking about how it would be if nothing (like "buying") is redefined and how that would mean that you could overpay debt.)

eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #351 on: May 13, 2016, 06:56:47 pm »
+1

Even with this definition (in my quote), when you buy Stonemason, you did not buy a card that costs debt.  Therefore the condition "you can only take debt tokens when you buy a card that costs that much debt' is not met.  Therefore you can't take debt tokens.

Ah, I finally understand what you're saying.
Ok, so I should have written this instead: "Not if the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you pay for a card that costs that much debt." (I mean, since we're talking about how it would be if nothing (like "buying") is redefined and how that would mean that you could overpay debt.)

Still doesn't work.  When you overpay, you're not "paying for a card".  You're not paying for anything in particular.  But after you've paid, then it has an effect dependent on what you paid.  So for Stonemason, you overpay and then it lets you gain cards.  You don't choose what to gain and then pay its cost.  It's an important semantic difference.

Edit: errant apostrophe
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 07:03:22 pm by eHalcyon »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #352 on: May 13, 2016, 07:01:36 pm »
0

Even with this definition (in my quote), when you buy Stonemason, you did not buy a card that costs debt.  Therefore the condition "you can only take debt tokens when you buy a card that costs that much debt' is not met.  Therefore you can't take debt tokens.

Ah, I finally understand what you're saying.
Ok, so I should have written this instead: "Not if the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you pay for a card that costs that much debt." (I mean, since we're talking about how it would be if nothing (like "buying") is redefined and how that would mean that you could overpay debt.)

Still doesn't work.  When you overpay, you're not "paying for a card".  You're not paying for anything in particular.  But after you've paid, then it has an effect dependent on what you paid.  So for Stonemason, you overpay and then it let's you gain cards.  You don't choose what to gain and then pay its cost.  It's an important semantic difference.

Yes, this is what I am saying.
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Jeebus

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #353 on: May 13, 2016, 07:37:25 pm »
0

Still doesn't work.  When you overpay, you're not "paying for a card".  You're not paying for anything in particular.  But after you've paid, then it has an effect dependent on what you paid.  So for Stonemason, you overpay and then it let's you gain cards.  You don't choose what to gain and then pay its cost.  It's an important semantic difference.

But that's what I've replied to several times already: If debt is a cost, and it can be paid, it's allowed to overpay debt. I don't know how to say that clearer. It means that you can "pay" however much "debt" you want when you overpay.

eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #354 on: May 13, 2016, 07:53:03 pm »
0

If debt is a cost, and it can be paid, it's allowed to overpay debt. I don't know how to say that clearer. It means that you can "pay" however much "debt" you want when you overpay.

This statement is not equivalent to this one:

"Not if the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you pay for a card that costs that much debt."

If the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you pay for a card that costs that much debt, then you can't do it with Stonemason or any other overpay cards because "overpay" isn't "paying for a card".
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Jeebus

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #355 on: May 13, 2016, 08:44:11 pm »
0

If debt is a cost, and it can be paid, it's allowed to overpay debt. I don't know how to say that clearer. It means that you can "pay" however much "debt" you want when you overpay.

This statement is not equivalent to this one:

"Not if the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you pay for a card that costs that much debt."

If the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you pay for a card that costs that much debt, then you can't do it with Stonemason or any other overpay cards because "overpay" isn't "paying for a card".

Ok, so it was still not entirely accurate. The point I was trying to make is that it can work exactly like coins in your pool. You may only pay it when you buy, or when an ability specifically tells you that you can pay. You can't just choose to pay whenever. So if debt is a cost that can be paid, it doesn't automatically mean that you can pay however much you want whenever, like Witherweaver claimed. It just means it would work exactly like coins. Do we agree now?

eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #356 on: May 13, 2016, 08:55:39 pm »
0

If debt is a cost, and it can be paid, it's allowed to overpay debt. I don't know how to say that clearer. It means that you can "pay" however much "debt" you want when you overpay.

This statement is not equivalent to this one:

"Not if the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you pay for a card that costs that much debt."

If the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you pay for a card that costs that much debt, then you can't do it with Stonemason or any other overpay cards because "overpay" isn't "paying for a card".

Ok, so it was still not entirely accurate. The point I was trying to make is that it can work exactly like coins in your pool. You may only pay it when you buy, or when an ability specifically tells you that you can pay. You can't just choose to pay whenever. So if debt is a cost that can be paid, it doesn't automatically mean that you can pay however much you want whenever, like Witherweaver claimed. It just means it would work exactly like coins. Do we agree now?

The order of operations still doesn't allow it to work, because nothing ever tells you to pay any amount of debt except when you buy a card.

I mean, by your definition, are you allowed to overpay Debt for Doctor?  If yes, what is the limit?  If no, how is Stonemason any different?
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Jeebus

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #357 on: May 13, 2016, 11:54:06 pm »
0

The order of operations still doesn't allow it to work, because nothing ever tells you to pay any amount of debt except when you buy a card.
Not true, overpay abilities tell you to pay any amount.

I mean, by your definition, are you allowed to overpay Debt for Doctor?  If yes, what is the limit?
Yes. There is no limit. This has already been covered regarding overpay and Possession, which is the only time you would ever overpay more debt than needed for Stonemason.

(Just to restate, I'm of course not saying this is the rule. Donald has made clear that you can't overpay debt.)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 11:56:28 pm by Jeebus »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #358 on: May 14, 2016, 12:36:09 am »
0

The order of operations still doesn't allow it to work, because nothing ever tells you to pay any amount of debt except when you buy a card.
Not true, overpay abilities tell you to pay any amount.

I mean, by your definition, are you allowed to overpay Debt for Doctor?  If yes, what is the limit?
Yes. There is no limit. This has already been covered regarding overpay and Possession, which is the only time you would ever overpay more debt than needed for Stonemason.

(Just to restate, I'm of course not saying this is the rule. Donald has made clear that you can't overpay debt.)

OK, I guess something got turned around there.  I thought you were arguing that (by your earlier definition) you were somehow restricted in the amount of debt that could be overpaid.

Anyway, this is getting silly even by my standards, since we're going on about the application of an incorrect definition, making all this discussion totally meaningless. :P
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Jeebus

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #359 on: May 14, 2016, 09:57:26 am »
0

Ok, just to sum up then. It all started with this post:

The order of operations isn't:

1. Take debt tokens to gain debt currency
2. Spend debt currency to buy debt-cost card

It is:

1. Buy debt-cost card
2. Take the number of debt tokens specified in the cost

It is different because the first version would allow you to gain extra debt or not spend all of it.  The only time you take debt tokens is when instructed (i.e. when buying a debt-cost card).

I've been trying to say that it could still be the first one, provided you would only be allowed to take debt tokens (step 1) when you're allowed to spend/pay that much debt currency (step 2) -- which is when you buy a debt cost card or when otherwise instructed (for instance overpay). In this way it would work exactly like paying coins from your pool. But it would have the side-effect of allowing unlimited debt when you overpay.

We don't know if it's the first or the second. The reason you can't overpay with debt is either: There's just a special rule saying you can't (which means it's the first). Or: "buying" doesn't mean to pay the cost when it comes to debt, it just means to take debt tokens equal to the cost (which means it's the second).

At this point I would hope Donald would enlighten us, but I think he might have given up on this discussion.

Triumph44

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #360 on: May 14, 2016, 01:12:36 pm »
0

Calling a Debt cost VP card.

Debt cost VP card would be  broken assuming you don't need to pay  off the debt of the player you possess. You'd just need enough buys and  could buy them all.

I guess you're right. Maybe it's $2 [4] for 3 VP then or something like that. But that's not incredibly unique. I feel like it would have to also do something extra.

I also love that Possession is getting a nerf. It's not the best card in the world to begin with, but now it's even not as good. :)

Is that really a nerf?  Goons/Monument/Bishop-heavy strategies used to make it difficult to use Possession and now they don't.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #361 on: May 16, 2016, 12:31:40 pm »
+6

It just occured to me that you can pay off debt on a Mission, but you need to buy the Mission before you get the debt.
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Seprix

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #362 on: May 16, 2016, 12:32:47 pm »
0

Calling a Debt cost VP card.

Debt cost VP card would be  broken assuming you don't need to pay  off the debt of the player you possess. You'd just need enough buys and  could buy them all.

I guess you're right. Maybe it's $2 [4] for 3 VP then or something like that. But that's not incredibly unique. I feel like it would have to also do something extra.

I also love that Possession is getting a nerf. It's not the best card in the world to begin with, but now it's even not as good. :)

Is that really a nerf?  Goons/Monument/Bishop-heavy strategies used to make it difficult to use Possession and now they don't.

People keep quoting this, like man, everyone already yelled at me, now I have everyone and someone else too. :(
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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #363 on: May 16, 2016, 12:37:47 pm »
0

Calling a Debt cost VP card.

Debt cost VP card would be  broken assuming you don't need to pay  off the debt of the player you possess. You'd just need enough buys and  could buy them all.

I guess you're right. Maybe it's $2 [4] for 3 VP then or something like that. But that's not incredibly unique. I feel like it would have to also do something extra.

I also love that Possession is getting a nerf. It's not the best card in the world to begin with, but now it's even not as good. :)
There you go.
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enfynet

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #364 on: May 16, 2016, 11:00:46 pm »
0

Maybe I missed part of the discussion.

The way I read that Debt "cost" in the corner is as an on-buy effect. "When you buy this, take X red hexagons."
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Accatitippi

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #365 on: May 22, 2016, 02:52:24 am »
0

Forgive me if it's asked before, but how does Debt interact with Black Market? Does the "can't buy stuff" effect only affect the buy phase or is Black Market overridden?
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dane-m

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #366 on: May 22, 2016, 09:56:13 am »
+1

Forgive me if it's asked before, but how does Debt interact with Black Market? Does the "can't buy stuff" effect only affect the buy phase or is Black Market overridden?
I think the question was asked before.  I'm pretty sure Black Market is not an exception to the inability to buy, i.e. having debt means one can't buy at all as opposed to can't buy in the buy phase.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #367 on: May 22, 2016, 02:50:44 pm »
+8

Forgive me if it's asked before, but how does Debt interact with Black Market? Does the "can't buy stuff" effect only affect the buy phase or is Black Market overridden?
You can't buy and also don't get a chance to pay off debt then.
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MattTV

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #368 on: May 28, 2016, 01:01:56 pm »
0

The debt cards like City Quarters and Royal Blacksmith seem a bit under-powered unless you have good trashing cards, but I guess they're pretty decent noting that you can buy them anytime with zero money down. Although I do like capital. It's kind of like a tactician-treasure but reverse in the sense that you can have a mega money turn now and most likely forfeit your next turn to pay it off 
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Sidsel

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #369 on: June 02, 2016, 01:20:00 pm »
+7

Shanty Town is called "Poor Quarter" in the Norwegian set. Nice fit thematically with City Quarter; both draw cards depending on what is in your hand.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #370 on: June 02, 2016, 05:03:42 pm »
+3

Shanty Town is called "Poor Quarter" in the Norwegian set. Nice fit thematically with City Quarter; both draw cards depending on what is in your hand.

Now watch "City Quarter" be translated as something entirely different. ;)
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #371 on: June 02, 2016, 05:34:05 pm »
+4

Shanty Town is called "Poor Quarter" in the Norwegian set. Nice fit thematically with City Quarter; both draw cards depending on what is in your hand.

Now watch "City Quarter" be translated as something entirely different. ;)

'City 20-Cent and 5-Cent Piece' in continental Europe. 
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Seprix

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #372 on: June 02, 2016, 06:06:02 pm »
0

City No-Quarter
Action -$5

+1 Card
+2 Actions

When this pile is empty, City does not get any empty pile bonuses.
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MattTV

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #373 on: June 04, 2016, 10:36:56 am »
+1

Oh and one question I had was if you crown a capital do you still accumulate just 6 debt? The card says that you accumulate the debt when you discard it from play not necessarily when you play it, so if even I play capital twice I'm still only discarding capital once from play. and thanks in advance for whoever answers.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #374 on: June 04, 2016, 11:01:48 am »
+7

Oh and one question I had was if you crown a capital do you still accumulate just 6 debt? The card says that you accumulate the debt when you discard it from play not necessarily when you play it, so if even I play capital twice I'm still only discarding capital once from play. and thanks in advance for whoever answers.

You are right, only get 6 debt once. Note that Counterfeit/Mint/Mandarin may allow you to dodge the debt entirely.
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