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Author Topic: Empires Previews #1: Debt  (Read 95976 times)

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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #325 on: May 13, 2016, 01:08:50 pm »
+1

That is in no way weirder than overpaying with $1 without gaining any $-cost card.
It works differently not because it would be weird, but because it would lead to broken games with Possession.
It works differently because overpaying debt for Doctor etc. would be weird. I was there!

I don't see how it would be weirder than overpaying a potion for Doctor.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #326 on: May 13, 2016, 01:10:20 pm »
+1

When I "bought" my house, I did not pay its cost.  You could argue that I did not buy it, but that is how people use the language.

I don't have experience with this, but isn't the process usually that the bank gives you money and you then give it to the seller?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #327 on: May 13, 2016, 01:10:33 pm »
+1

It is:

1. Buy debt-cost card
2. Take the number of debt tokens specified in the cost

No it's not. It is:
1. Buy a debt-cost-card, paying its cost which means taking debt tokens.

Remains to be seen when the Empires rule book comes out.  Donald's ruling suggests that it's not what you say.

So why couldn't we have a cost like "get 8 debt"

We could, but it would create bizarre situations like being able to overpay by "get X debt", or being able to just take debt without being instructed to or gaining any debt cards, so it works differently instead.
No, you still wouldn't be able to take debt without being instructed too, just as you can't pay without being instructed to.

Overpay doesn't instruct you to take debt tokens.  Easy.

No it's not.  The order of operations isn't:

1. Take debt tokens to gain debt currency
2. Spend debt currency to buy debt-cost card

It is:

1. Buy debt-cost card
2. Take the number of debt tokens specified in the cost

It is different because the first version would allow you to gain extra debt or not spend all of it.  The only time you take debt tokens is when instructed (i.e. when buying a debt-cost card).

Not if the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you buy a card that costs that much debt (which it is).

That's still fine for preventing you from overpaying in debt.  When you buy an overpay card, does it cost any debt?  No, so you don't get any debt.

When you buy a card, you pay it's cost. To me, paying a debt means taking a debt token.
You don't pay by taking coin tokens, I don't see how it is similar.

See, that's not defined that way in English and Donald has said it's not defined that way in the rules either.  If someone says "I'm paying a debt", the natural interpretation is that you are paying off a debt, not that you are taking more on.  I totally understand where you're coming from and was prepared to accept the weird definition in the context of Dominion, but I think the real official ruling does make more sense.

Note that this ruling is actually consistent for the concept of "paying": to [over]pay, you spend/deduct resources from the pool of resources you've produced that turn.  Debt is not a resource that you produce and spend, so you cannot pay it.

The problem is that this isn't consistent with how Dominion works. "Debt" (or however you call the number in the hexagon) is clearly defined as the cost of the card. You can buy cards like that. When you buy a card, you pay its cost.

Dominion had no concept of Debt before empires, so no ruling about Debt is inconsistent.  Or, you can say that it's going to be inconsistent no matter what the ruling is, so we just have to learn to live with the new status quo.
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bedlam

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #328 on: May 13, 2016, 01:11:58 pm »
0


That reddish hexagon means you don't pay for City Quarter or Royal Blacksmith up front. Instead you take some tokens that say how much you owe.


So this changes the way we deal with a cards cost. You don't 'pay' with debt. You take debt which shows how much you owe.

EDIT: the definition of 'cost' hasn't changed
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 01:15:29 pm by bedlam »
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bedlam

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #329 on: May 13, 2016, 01:13:11 pm »
+1

When I "bought" my house, I did not pay its cost.  You could argue that I did not buy it, but that is how people use the language.

I don't have experience with this, but isn't the process usually that the bank gives you money and you then give it to the seller?

No, the bank buys the house from and pays the seller, and when we pay the bank what the house cost then we get the house.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #330 on: May 13, 2016, 01:13:32 pm »
+2

That is in no way weirder than overpaying with $1 without gaining any $-cost card.
It works differently not because it would be weird, but because it would lead to broken games with Possession.
It works differently because overpaying debt for Doctor etc. would be weird. I was there!

I don't see how it would be weirder than overpaying a potion for Doctor.
I think I'm going to have to live with that.

This is in fact in the Empires rulebook, in the section explaining debt; you can't overpay with debt.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #331 on: May 13, 2016, 01:13:49 pm »
0

No it's not.  The order of operations isn't:

1. Take debt tokens to gain debt currency
2. Spend debt currency to buy debt-cost card

It is:

1. Buy debt-cost card
2. Take the number of debt tokens specified in the cost

It is different because the first version would allow you to gain extra debt or not spend all of it.  The only time you take debt tokens is when instructed (i.e. when buying a debt-cost card).

Not if the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you buy a card that costs that much debt (which it is).

Even with that rule, you wouldn't be able to Overpay 'debt' or 'debt tokens' with Stonemason, because you're not buying a card when you Overpay.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #332 on: May 13, 2016, 01:16:26 pm »
+1

That is in no way weirder than overpaying with $1 without gaining any $-cost card.
It works differently not because it would be weird, but because it would lead to broken games with Possession.
It works differently because overpaying debt for Doctor etc. would be weird. I was there!

I don't see how it would be weirder than overpaying a potion for Doctor.
I think I'm going to have to live with that.
I think I'm going to have to live with that.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #333 on: May 13, 2016, 01:19:14 pm »
0

When I "bought" my house, I did not pay its cost.  You could argue that I did not buy it, but that is how people use the language.

I don't have experience with this, but isn't the process usually that the bank gives you money and you then give it to the seller?

I can't claim to actually know the minutiae of what happened, but there was definitely not a point where I actually had all that money in an account. If it works the way it appears to work, I agreed to pay the bank for my house, and they paid the seller.  You'd have to ask a banker to know how it really works.  I did not take out a loan from the bank and then use that money to pay the seller directly.

Jeebus

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #334 on: May 13, 2016, 01:19:51 pm »
0

Even with that rule, you wouldn't be able to Overpay 'debt' or 'debt tokens' with Stonemason, because you're not buying a card when you Overpay.

That's not correct. When you overpay with Stonemason, you pay the cost of the card, and then gain it. "X Debt" is clearly the cost of the card. The only question is if buying still involves paying the cost of a card. If it instead now is defined as per eHalcyon's explanation, then overpay debt is implicitly impossible because "debt" is not a cost that can be paid.

EDIT: I think this is very clear now. Either paying buying is redefined - and then overpaying debt can't work - or it isn't - and then overpaying debt should work according to existing rules but Donald has made a special rule about it.

EDIT again: Gah, I meant that "buying" is redefined, not "paying".
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 02:26:26 pm by Jeebus »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #335 on: May 13, 2016, 01:23:56 pm »
+1

Even with that rule, you wouldn't be able to Overpay 'debt' or 'debt tokens' with Stonemason, because you're not buying a card when you Overpay.

That's not correct. When you overpay with Stonemason, you pay the cost of the card, and then gain it. "X Debt" is clearly the cost of the card. The only question is if buying still involves paying the cost of a card. If it instead now is defined as per eHalcyon's explanation, then overpay debt is implicitly impossible.

This does not seem to be how Stonemason works.

"When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Actions each costing the amount you overpaid."

You overpay independent of possible gaining targets. 

Edit: from the Overpay wiki:

"A player may pay any additional amount for such a card, and then gets an effect based on how much extra was paid. Potions (from Dominion: Alchemy) may be used in overpaid amounts if desired, although this is not always meaningful."

So, pay first, then do stuff. 

Edit2: The 'cost of the card' when you overpay with Stonemason is the cost of Stonemason, not the cards you are Gaining as Stonemason's Overpay effect. 
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 01:27:23 pm by Witherweaver »
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Elestan

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #336 on: May 13, 2016, 01:28:25 pm »
0

I did not take out a loan from the bank and then use that money to pay the seller directly.

From a legal point of view, that's what happens.  The lender and seller just shortcut the transfer so that the money doesn't stop in your bank account on the way.

Anything further on this topic should probably go to General Discussions.
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Jeebus

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #337 on: May 13, 2016, 01:32:00 pm »
0

"When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Actions each costing the amount you overpaid."

You overpay independent of possible gaining targets. 

I don't see your point. Maybe I expressed myself a little sloppily, but it doesn't change anything. You overpay with the cost of whichever card or cards you wish to gain. Of course you can also overpay with a cost that doesn't correspond to any card costs. The point was simply that "debt" is a cost, and if buying a "debt" cost card involved paying for the cost, then that means you can also overpay "debt" (if not for the rule that specifically says you can't).

Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #338 on: May 13, 2016, 01:44:23 pm »
+2

"When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Actions each costing the amount you overpaid."

You overpay independent of possible gaining targets. 

I don't see your point. Maybe I expressed myself a little sloppily, but it doesn't change anything. You overpay with the cost of whichever card or cards you wish to gain. Of course you can also overpay with a cost that doesn't correspond to any card costs. The point was simply that "debt" is a cost, and if buying a "debt" cost card involved paying for the cost, then that means you can also overpay "debt" (if not for the rule that specifically says you can't).

Well you don't overpay with the cost of whichever card or cards you wish to gain, you overpay by some amount.  Then you do stuff if you overpayed based on that amount.  Regardless, I responded originally to this:

Quote
Not if the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you buy a card that costs that much debt (which it is).

When you buy Stonemason, you're not buying a card that costs some (nonzero) amount of debt, so you can't gain debt tokens (i.e., 'pay debt').
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #339 on: May 13, 2016, 01:45:48 pm »
+4

"When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Actions each costing the amount you overpaid."

You overpay independent of possible gaining targets. 

I don't see your point. Maybe I expressed myself a little sloppily, but it doesn't change anything. You overpay with the cost of whichever card or cards you wish to gain. Of course you can also overpay with a cost that doesn't correspond to any card costs. The point was simply that "debt" is a cost, and if buying a "debt" cost card involved paying for the cost, then that means you can also overpay "debt" (if not for the rule that specifically says you can't).

Official rules (taken from wiki):

Quote
A player may pay any additional amount for such a card, and then gets an effect based on how much extra was paid. Potion (from Dominion: Alchemy) may be used in overpaid amounts if desired, although this is not always meaningful.

It says nothing about card costs.  Overpay works independently of how much cards cost, instead focusing on amounts that you pay.  Debt may be a cost, but that doesn't make it an amount that you can can be paid.  It could have been defined that way, but it isn't.

I feel like "it's inconsistent whatever the ruling" is the better direction, so consider this.  The original base game rules say this (taken from the actual rulebook):

Quote
The player can gain one card from the Supply by buying it -paying the cost shown on the card. The player pays in coins from Treasure cards (the number on the coin) and from previously paid Action cards.

Potions are already inconsistent with that.  Expansions expand the rules.

With the addition of debt, you have to be inconsistent one way or the other.  Either you expand the definition of "cost" to include stuff that isn't paid (i.e. debt) or you expand the definition of "pay" to include taking stuff instead of just spending amounts accrued via played Treasure and Action cards (and coin tokens, and events).

Expanding the definition of "cost" is more in keeping with natural language.
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singletee

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #340 on: May 13, 2016, 02:08:06 pm »
0

With the addition of debt, you have to be inconsistent one way or the other.  Either you expand the definition of "cost" to include stuff that isn't paid (i.e. debt) or you expand the definition of "pay" to include taking stuff instead of just spending amounts accrued via played Treasure and Action cards (and coin tokens, and events).

Expanding the definition of "cost" is more in keeping with natural language.

For me, those expanded definitions are a pretty small jump. I am already used to them. The problem for me is with overpay. When you buy a card that lets you overpay, you pay the cost of the card, and then once more you can pay. Pay? Pay what? It's not specified since there isn't a thing you are paying for. So we have to restrict it to stuff that is sane (for some particular definition of sane) like coins and potions.

Jeebus

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #341 on: May 13, 2016, 02:10:02 pm »
0

Well you don't overpay with the cost of whichever card or cards you wish to gain, you overpay by some amount.  Then you do stuff if you overpayed based on that amount.
???
I already responded to that. It was a shorthand way of saying that you can pay whatever cost you want -- mainly in order to gain cards with that cost, but as I said, yes: any cost. So if debt is a cost, and it can be paid, it's allowed to overpay debt. I'm perplexed as to why you're disputing that.

Regardless, I responded originally to this:
Quote
Not if the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you buy a card that costs that much debt (which it is).
When you buy Stonemason, you're not buying a card that costs some (nonzero) amount of debt, so you can't gain debt tokens (i.e., 'pay debt').
Uhm. If debt is a cost, and it can be paid, it's allowed to overpay debt.

Jeebus

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #342 on: May 13, 2016, 02:32:15 pm »
+1

It says nothing about card costs.  Overpay works independently of how much cards cost, instead focusing on amounts that you pay.  Debt may be a cost, but that doesn't make it an amount that you can can be paid.  It could have been defined that way, but it isn't.
We don't know that, Donald hasn't chimed in on it.

With the addition of debt, you have to be inconsistent one way or the other.  Either you expand the definition of "cost" to include stuff that isn't paid (i.e. debt) or you expand the definition of "pay" to include taking stuff instead of just spending amounts accrued via played Treasure and Action cards (and coin tokens, and events).

Expanding the definition of "cost" is more in keeping with natural language.

"Buying" needs to be redefined, because up until now it means to pay. If you redefine it exactly as you wrote (quoted below), I'm not sure if you need to redefine "cost".
EDIT: I don't think you need to redefine "cost". For abilities that refer to costs, it already works. For buying, well, if it's redefined as mentioned, it refers to coin/potion costs and debt costs differently. No problem. What needs to be redefined is buying, and only buying.

I also wrote a post in response to your original post about this (which I'm the only one to have thumbed!):
If the rulebook previously said explicitly that "to buy a card, you need to pay its cost", well, that's before the concept of debt was introduced.  Now it'll say, "to buy a card, you need to pay coins/potions equal to its coin/potion cost and take debt tokens equal to its debt cost".
but that reply was lost somehow. Anyway, that's the essence, and if that is the new definition of buying, then that means overpaying debt is implicitly impossible.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 02:36:39 pm by Jeebus »
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bedlam

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #343 on: May 13, 2016, 02:39:49 pm »
+2

This is in fact in the Empires rulebook, in the section explaining debt; you can't overpay with debt.

We all may have to put this argument and discussion on hold until we see what is in the rulebook regarding debt. It could very well be all explained and defined in there.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #344 on: May 13, 2016, 03:23:28 pm »
0

Well you don't overpay with the cost of whichever card or cards you wish to gain, you overpay by some amount.  Then you do stuff if you overpayed based on that amount.
???
I already responded to that. It was a shorthand way of saying that you can pay whatever cost you want -- mainly in order to gain cards with that cost, but as I said, yes: any cost. So if debt is a cost, and it can be paid, it's allowed to overpay debt. I'm perplexed as to why you're disputing that.

Regardless, I responded originally to this:
Quote
Not if the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you buy a card that costs that much debt (which it is).
When you buy Stonemason, you're not buying a card that costs some (nonzero) amount of debt, so you can't gain debt tokens (i.e., 'pay debt').
Uhm. If debt is a cost, and it can be paid, it's allowed to overpay debt.

Stonemason doesn't cost 2+<what you decide to overpay>.  It costs $2.  Stonemason for $2 with a 5 overpay doesn't let you gain something costing $6 with Haggler in play.

Even with this definition (in my quote), when you buy Stonemason, you did not buy a card that costs debt.  Therefore the condition "you can only take debt tokens when you buy a card that costs that much debt' is not met.  Therefore you can't take debt tokens.

I don't understand what's in contention here.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #345 on: May 13, 2016, 03:57:14 pm »
0

It says nothing about card costs.  Overpay works independently of how much cards cost, instead focusing on amounts that you pay.  Debt may be a cost, but that doesn't make it an amount that you can can be paid.  It could have been defined that way, but it isn't.
We don't know that, Donald hasn't chimed in on it.

With the addition of debt, you have to be inconsistent one way or the other.  Either you expand the definition of "cost" to include stuff that isn't paid (i.e. debt) or you expand the definition of "pay" to include taking stuff instead of just spending amounts accrued via played Treasure and Action cards (and coin tokens, and events).

Expanding the definition of "cost" is more in keeping with natural language.

"Buying" needs to be redefined, because up until now it means to pay. If you redefine it exactly as you wrote (quoted below), I'm not sure if you need to redefine "cost".
EDIT: I don't think you need to redefine "cost". For abilities that refer to costs, it already works. For buying, well, if it's redefined as mentioned, it refers to coin/potion costs and debt costs differently. No problem. What needs to be redefined is buying, and only buying.

I also wrote a post in response to your original post about this (which I'm the only one to have thumbed!):
If the rulebook previously said explicitly that "to buy a card, you need to pay its cost", well, that's before the concept of debt was introduced.  Now it'll say, "to buy a card, you need to pay coins/potions equal to its coin/potion cost and take debt tokens equal to its debt cost".
but that reply was lost somehow. Anyway, that's the essence, and if that is the new definition of buying, then that means overpaying debt is implicitly impossible.

Sure.  My point was that Debt is something new and the old definitions don't address or account for it.  Something is going to be inconsistent, it's just a matter of what.
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jonts26

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #346 on: May 13, 2016, 04:21:49 pm »
+6

This is in fact in the Empires rulebook, in the section explaining debt; you can't overpay with debt.

We all may have to put this argument and discussion on hold until we see what is in the rulebook regarding debt. It could very well be all explained and defined in there.

You think that'll stop people? You must be new here.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #347 on: May 13, 2016, 05:00:54 pm »
+4

Loan feels very misnamed all of a sudden.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #348 on: May 13, 2016, 05:07:08 pm »
+3

Loan feels very misnamed all of a sudden.

Moneylender too.
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flaquito

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #349 on: May 13, 2016, 05:41:36 pm »
+3

Loan feels very misnamed all of a sudden.

Moneylender too.

You're sending out your own moneylender. He provides a 1-copper payday loan to some desperate and gullible schmuck in your kingdom, and gives you back a 4-fold return.
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