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Author Topic: Empires Previews #1: Debt  (Read 95977 times)

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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #300 on: May 13, 2016, 11:55:26 am »
0

I was refering to this, I missed the post in between.

I can choose to ignore Debt and buy City Quarter for $8.

Except you can't do this.  You have to buy City Quarter, receive 8 Debt tokens, and then pay them off.  Just because you wouldn't actually do it this way in a RL game doesn't mean that isn't how the game mechanics work.


(I suppose I can't be 100% confident the rules to be worded this way... but I expect them to be.)

Ah okay.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #301 on: May 13, 2016, 11:55:44 am »
+2

It just isn't an edge case.  It is not like Potions.  When I play a Potion card, I generate one element of Potion currency.  I then pay that currency to buy cards that cost Potion.

If Debt worked like this, it would be the same:
"I take a number of red hexagons, and for each one I take, I get one element of "Debt" currency for each one. Then I pay that currency to buy cards that cost Debt."

But that isn't how it works.
you buy City Quarter, you get 8 Debt

You pay nothing for City Quarter, and then the act of buying it causes you to receive 8 Debt.

Saying "I am going to buy Stonemason, and overpay by the amount of <receiving 8 Debt>" doesn't sound like a thing you should be able to do to me.

werothegreat

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #302 on: May 13, 2016, 11:56:58 am »
+7

Debt is a cost, like and , but it is not a resource, unlike and .  It's more like Coin tokens in many ways - can you Overpay by taking Coin tokens?
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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #303 on: May 13, 2016, 11:58:51 am »
0

When you buy a card, you pay it's cost. To me, paying a debt means taking a debt token.
You don't pay by taking coin tokens, I don't see how it is similar.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 11:59:52 am by Watno »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #304 on: May 13, 2016, 11:59:08 am »
+1

I don't see why taking Debt tokens shouldn't be considered a payment. In Magic, you can pay a cost by doing pretty much anything - spend mana, spend life, sacrifice stuff, discard cards, draw cards, create tokens, gain life, do the hokey pokey, etc. So why couldn't we have a cost like "get 8 debt" or even "discard 3 cards"?

Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #305 on: May 13, 2016, 12:07:34 pm »
0

So why couldn't we have a cost like "get 8 debt"

We could, but it would create bizarre situations like being able to overpay by "get X debt", or being able to just take debt without being instructed to or gaining any debt cards, so it works differently instead.

Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #306 on: May 13, 2016, 12:10:57 pm »
+1

That is in no way weirder than overpaying with $1 without gaining any $-cost card.
It works differently not because it would be weird, but because it would lead to broken games with Possession.
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golden_cow2

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #307 on: May 13, 2016, 12:11:43 pm »
+1

But I'd argue that doesn't make sense.  You have Stonemason on board.  You decide to 'Overpay' with 5 Debt.  You gain 5 Debt tokens, and, uh.. fail to gain anything, because nothing costs 5 Debt.  (I should mention there are no 'Debt cost' cards on the board.) But now you have 5 Debt, which I guess you can go ahead and spend 5 Coin to pay off, if you had it.  Or keep it around to prevent yourself from buying something.

Similarly if you have a potion, you can overpay with it even if it wouldn't get you anything. Hell, there are some cases where you can overpay with coins and not get anything. So far, this isn't weird.

This kind of weirdness doesn't exist with Potion.  You add Potion to your currency by playing a certain card (namely, Potion).  You spend those Potions as you do Coins.  If you can't generate Potion, then you can't spend it.

And you add "debt currency" to your pool by taking debt tokens under certain circumstances.

But I shouldn't be responding to this. I have already admitted that the ruling makes sense, what I am objecting to is that no matter how you justify the ruling it is still different from what you'd expect given how debt costs are presented on cards (identical to potions) and how debt costs behave with cost comparisons (identical to potions). It is better in the long run if we can point to an alternate cost/currency and say "it works like this" without making an exception for any given cost and the only way to do that is to say "you can overpay with anything" or "you can only overpay in a currency the card originally cost".


If Debt worked like this, it would be the same:
"I take a number of red hexagons, and for each one I take, I get one element of "Debt" currency for each one. Then I pay that currency to buy cards that cost Debt."

But that isn't how it works.

The problem is that in practice that's exactly how it works outside of one specific type of card (overpay cards).
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #308 on: May 13, 2016, 12:12:10 pm »
0

I don't see why taking Debt tokens shouldn't be considered a payment. In Magic, you can pay a cost by doing pretty much anything - spend mana, spend life, sacrifice stuff, discard cards, draw cards, create tokens, gain life, do the hokey pokey, etc. So why couldn't we have a cost like "get 8 debt" or even "discard 3 cards"?

Congratulations. Not only did you make me laugh, but as someone who has never played Magic in his life, you officially got me wondering whether a cost like this actually exists.  :P (Probably not but you never know!)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #309 on: May 13, 2016, 12:17:05 pm »
+4

Congratulations. Not only did you make me laugh, but as someone who has never played Magic in his life, you officially got me wondering whether a cost like this actually exists.  :P (Probably not but you never know!)

http://magiccards.info/ug/en/6.html

Not in a tournament playable set, but yes.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #310 on: May 13, 2016, 12:18:48 pm »
+3

When you buy a card, you pay it's cost. To me, paying a debt means taking a debt token.
You don't pay by taking coin tokens, I don't see how it is similar.

See, that's not defined that way in English and Donald has said it's not defined that way in the rules either.  If someone says "I'm paying a debt", the natural interpretation is that you are paying off a debt, not that you are taking more on.  I totally understand where you're coming from and was prepared to accept the weird definition in the context of Dominion, but I think the real official ruling does make more sense.

Note that this ruling is actually consistent for the concept of "paying": to [over]pay, you spend/deduct resources from the pool of resources you've produced that turn.  Debt is not a resource that you produce and spend, so you cannot pay it.
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golden_cow2

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #311 on: May 13, 2016, 12:23:43 pm »
0

Note that this ruling is actually consistent for the concept of "paying": to [over]pay, you spend/deduct resources from the pool of resources you've produced that turn.  Debt is not a resource that you produce and spend, so you cannot pay it.

Debt as a concept didn't exist in the Guilds rulebook, so quotes from it aren't particularly convincing. It seems like common sense to me that you "pay" a debt cost by taking on debt.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #312 on: May 13, 2016, 12:30:25 pm »
0

When you buy a card, you pay it's cost. To me, paying a debt means taking a debt token.
You don't pay by taking coin tokens, I don't see how it is similar.

See, that's not defined that way in English and Donald has said it's not defined that way in the rules either.  If someone says "I'm paying a debt", the natural interpretation is that you are paying off a debt, not that you are taking more on.  I totally understand where you're coming from and was prepared to accept the weird definition in the context of Dominion, but I think the real official ruling does make more sense.

Note that this ruling is actually consistent for the concept of "paying": to [over]pay, you spend/deduct resources from the pool of resources you've produced that turn.  Debt is not a resource that you produce and spend, so you cannot pay it.

I'm pretty sure the rulebook says to buy a card, you need to pay it's cost.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #313 on: May 13, 2016, 12:30:51 pm »
+4


If Debt worked like this, it would be the same:
"I take a number of red hexagons, and for each one I take, I get one element of "Debt" currency for each one. Then I pay that currency to buy cards that cost Debt."

But that isn't how it works.

The problem is that in practice that's exactly how it works outside of one specific type of card (overpay cards).

No it's not.  The order of operations isn't:

1. Take debt tokens to gain debt currency
2. Spend debt currency to buy debt-cost card

It is:

1. Buy debt-cost card
2. Take the number of debt tokens specified in the cost

It is different because the first version would allow you to gain extra debt or not spend all of it.  The only time you take debt tokens is when instructed (i.e. when buying a debt-cost card).

Note that this ruling is actually consistent for the concept of "paying": to [over]pay, you spend/deduct resources from the pool of resources you've produced that turn.  Debt is not a resource that you produce and spend, so you cannot pay it.

Debt as a concept didn't exist in the Guilds rulebook, so quotes from it aren't particularly convincing. It seems like common sense to me that you "pay" a debt cost by taking on debt.

It's not a quote from a rulebook, it's an understanding of what it means to pay something as per the English definition of the word.  I say again, think about what it means to "pay a debt".  The common sense interpretation is that you are paying off debt and improving your financial standing, not taking more debt on.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #314 on: May 13, 2016, 12:38:17 pm »
+2

When you buy a card, you pay it's cost. To me, paying a debt means taking a debt token.
You don't pay by taking coin tokens, I don't see how it is similar.

See, that's not defined that way in English and Donald has said it's not defined that way in the rules either.  If someone says "I'm paying a debt", the natural interpretation is that you are paying off a debt, not that you are taking more on.  I totally understand where you're coming from and was prepared to accept the weird definition in the context of Dominion, but I think the real official ruling does make more sense.

Note that this ruling is actually consistent for the concept of "paying": to [over]pay, you spend/deduct resources from the pool of resources you've produced that turn.  Debt is not a resource that you produce and spend, so you cannot pay it.

I'm pretty sure the rulebook says to buy a card, you need to pay it's cost.

Sure, but the rulebook doesn't say that "paying a debt means taking a debt token".  That concept would have to be defined in the Empires rulebook.  From the official ruling, it seems that it isn't; instead, the natural English interpretation is used.  Debt is something you just pay, but rather something you take and later pay off

If the rulebook previously said explicitly that "to buy a card, you need to pay its cost", well, that's before the concept of debt was introduced.  Now it'll say, "to buy a card, you need to pay coins/potions equal to its coin/potion cost and take debt tokens equal to its debt cost".
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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #315 on: May 13, 2016, 12:38:27 pm »
0

It is:

1. Buy debt-cost card
2. Take the number of debt tokens specified in the cost

No it's not. It is:
1. Buy a debt-cost-card, paying its cost which means taking debt tokens.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #316 on: May 13, 2016, 12:40:22 pm »
0

When you buy a card, you pay it's cost. To me, paying a debt means taking a debt token.
You don't pay by taking coin tokens, I don't see how it is similar.

See, that's not defined that way in English and Donald has said it's not defined that way in the rules either.  If someone says "I'm paying a debt", the natural interpretation is that you are paying off a debt, not that you are taking more on.  I totally understand where you're coming from and was prepared to accept the weird definition in the context of Dominion, but I think the real official ruling does make more sense.

Note that this ruling is actually consistent for the concept of "paying": to [over]pay, you spend/deduct resources from the pool of resources you've produced that turn.  Debt is not a resource that you produce and spend, so you cannot pay it.

I'm pretty sure the rulebook says to buy a card, you need to pay it's cost.

Sure, but the rulebook doesn't say that "paying a debt means taking a debt token".  That concept would have to be defined in the Empires rulebook.  From the official ruling, it seems that it isn't; instead, the natural English interpretation is used.  Debt is something you just pay, but rather something you take and later pay off

If the rulebook previously said explicitly that "to buy a card, you need to pay its cost", well, that's before the concept of debt was introduced.  Now it'll say, "to buy a card, you need to pay coins/potions equal to its coin/potion cost and take debt tokens equal to its debt cost".

I'm not a native speaker, but I think the natural English interpretation of "buying something" involves paying it's cost.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #317 on: May 13, 2016, 12:43:27 pm »
+1

When you buy a card, you pay it's cost. To me, paying a debt means taking a debt token.
You don't pay by taking coin tokens, I don't see how it is similar.

See, that's not defined that way in English and Donald has said it's not defined that way in the rules either.  If someone says "I'm paying a debt", the natural interpretation is that you are paying off a debt, not that you are taking more on.  I totally understand where you're coming from and was prepared to accept the weird definition in the context of Dominion, but I think the real official ruling does make more sense.

Note that this ruling is actually consistent for the concept of "paying": to [over]pay, you spend/deduct resources from the pool of resources you've produced that turn.  Debt is not a resource that you produce and spend, so you cannot pay it.

I'm pretty sure the rulebook says to buy a card, you need to pay it's cost.

Sure, but the rulebook doesn't say that "paying a debt means taking a debt token".  That concept would have to be defined in the Empires rulebook.  From the official ruling, it seems that it isn't; instead, the natural English interpretation is used.  Debt is something you just pay, but rather something you take and later pay off

If the rulebook previously said explicitly that "to buy a card, you need to pay its cost", well, that's before the concept of debt was introduced.  Now it'll say, "to buy a card, you need to pay coins/potions equal to its coin/potion cost and take debt tokens equal to its debt cost".

I'm not a native speaker, but I think the natural English interpretation of "buying something" involves paying it's cost.

When I "bought" my house, I did not pay its cost.  You could argue that I did not buy it, but that is how people use the language.

Jeebus

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #318 on: May 13, 2016, 12:49:48 pm »
0

So why couldn't we have a cost like "get 8 debt"

We could, but it would create bizarre situations like being able to overpay by "get X debt", or being able to just take debt without being instructed to or gaining any debt cards, so it works differently instead.
No, you still wouldn't be able to take debt without being instructed too, just as you can't pay without being instructed to.

markusin

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #319 on: May 13, 2016, 12:55:09 pm »
0

I can choose to ignore Debt and buy City Quarter for $8.

Except you can't do this.  You have to buy City Quarter, receive 8 Debt tokens, and then pay them off.  Just because you wouldn't actually do it this way in a RL game doesn't mean that isn't how the game mechanics work.


(I suppose I can't be 100% confident the rules to be worded this way... but I expect them to be.)

Oh, right.
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Jeebus

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #320 on: May 13, 2016, 12:56:37 pm »
0

No it's not.  The order of operations isn't:

1. Take debt tokens to gain debt currency
2. Spend debt currency to buy debt-cost card

It is:

1. Buy debt-cost card
2. Take the number of debt tokens specified in the cost

It is different because the first version would allow you to gain extra debt or not spend all of it.  The only time you take debt tokens is when instructed (i.e. when buying a debt-cost card).

Not if the rule is that you can only take debt tokens when you buy a card that costs that much debt (which it is).

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #321 on: May 13, 2016, 12:57:03 pm »
+2

When you buy a card, you pay it's cost. To me, paying a debt means taking a debt token.
You don't pay by taking coin tokens, I don't see how it is similar.

See, that's not defined that way in English and Donald has said it's not defined that way in the rules either.  If someone says "I'm paying a debt", the natural interpretation is that you are paying off a debt, not that you are taking more on.  I totally understand where you're coming from and was prepared to accept the weird definition in the context of Dominion, but I think the real official ruling does make more sense.

Note that this ruling is actually consistent for the concept of "paying": to [over]pay, you spend/deduct resources from the pool of resources you've produced that turn.  Debt is not a resource that you produce and spend, so you cannot pay it.

The problem is that this isn't consistent with how Dominion works. "Debt" (or however you call the number in the hexagon) is clearly defined as the cost of the card. You can buy cards like that. When you buy a card, you pay its cost.

Minotaur

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #322 on: May 13, 2016, 12:58:17 pm »
0

http://mtaur.deviantart.com/art/DimOnion-Modern-Times-Print-page-1-Debt-463772167

The token idea is great.  It just happens that I had a derpy fan set largely based on an Action-Curse variant by the same name...

http://mtaur.blogspot.com/2014/06/dimonion-modern-times-calling-all.html

(I haven't updated online to reflect playtesting changes since then, oh well.)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #323 on: May 13, 2016, 01:04:58 pm »
+1

I can choose to ignore Debt and buy City Quarter for $8.

Except you can't do this.  You have to buy City Quarter, receive 8 Debt tokens, and then pay them off.  Just because you wouldn't actually do it this way in a RL game doesn't mean that isn't how the game mechanics work.


(I suppose I can't be 100% confident the rules to be worded this way... but I expect them to be.)
Correct. You can't ignore Debt on City Quarter. If you have $8, you still get 8 Debt, and then it's a good move to pay off that Debt, though you don't have to.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #324 on: May 13, 2016, 01:06:21 pm »
+1

That is in no way weirder than overpaying with $1 without gaining any $-cost card.
It works differently not because it would be weird, but because it would lead to broken games with Possession.
It works differently because overpaying debt for Doctor etc. would be weird. I was there!
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