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Author Topic: Empires Previews #1: Debt  (Read 170640 times)

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-Stef-

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #275 on: May 13, 2016, 09:40:04 am »
+5

There are more overpay cards than Stonemason. Overpaying by debt either had to be possible with all or none of them. It was weird with the other ones.

Weirder than overpaying by Potion?

...Okay, yeah, I see what you mean, it is.

I don't see it, can someone enlighten me? (I see it would have been a huge problem with the old Possession, but with the errata'd version I see absolutely no issues that don't already exist for overpaying with Potion).

With potions, you can only overpay with the Potions you actually have. With debt, you would be overpaying with things you don't have, you just promise to take them. There would be no boundary on the amount of debt you could promise to take.

A reasonably likely problem scenario is if we both have multi-possessions in an engine. In these games you want to use the other players deck to buy victory cards, while your own deck should produce as little coins as possible. How convenient if you can buy a Masterpiece and overpay with 1.000.000.000 debt, completely disabling your own deck for the foreseeable future. Except that your opponent can answer with a similar move...
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markusin

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #276 on: May 13, 2016, 09:42:36 am »
0

There are more overpay cards than Stonemason. Overpaying by debt either had to be possible with all or none of them. It was weird with the other ones.

Weirder than overpaying by Potion?

...Okay, yeah, I see what you mean, it is.

I don't see it, can someone enlighten me? (I see it would have been a huge problem with the old Possession, but with the errata'd version I see absolutely no issues that don't already exist for overpaying with Potion).

I think people with less of an understanding of Dominion would think of debt as interchangeable with Money when overpaying. Obviously no one is going to mix up Potions and Coins, but people might treat debt the same way as coins for things like Herald or whatever. You also can't take arbitrary amounts of debt like you can have arbitrary amounts of coins - debt is given to you, Coins are taken from you, etc.

No inside info just my intuition here, could be wrong, etc

If you could overpay by debt, then what would happen if I overpay by $1 and 7 debt with Stonemason? Can I still get two Royal Blacksmiths that way? If so, that suggests than debt is maybe a mixed  currency, or that taking debt is like playing a coin token. I don't think either of those interpretations are intended. The debt cost seems tied to an on-buy action of taking some number of debt tokens.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #277 on: May 13, 2016, 09:48:18 am »
0

If taking Debt for no reason was a thing, then you could take it even in a Base only game--or in an Alchemy-only game, to counter Possession (which is the only reason I can think of to randomly take Debt).
Being able to take debt voluntarily to counter Possession would be awesome! It would both weaken a controversial and powerful card, and lead to interesting strategic decisions.

By my reckoning, if you quantify the expected benefit to you at this point in the game of taking a turn, and call that b, that means it's worth b to play Possession on you. If you deliberately took a debt of b before your turn then you lose b if you're not Possessed, and your opponent gets no benefit from Possessing you, so they won't.

If you take a debt of b/2, however, your opponent has a choice between Possessing you (benefit of b/2 to you by paying off your debt, residual benefit of b/2 to them) or not. You've turned Possessing you into a break-even decision.

But your opponent might not be in a position to play Possession. Say the probability of it being possible next turn is p, I think you should take a debt of pb/2.

This ignores all sorts of side-issues and complications, but illustrates the kind of consideration that would arise.

I'm not sold. Your opponent will Possess you anyway, and if their (your) turn is good enough, they'll pay the debt and reap the benefits, otherwise, you'll be left with a losing hand next turn. The risk is all on you, to put it that way.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #278 on: May 13, 2016, 09:56:28 am »
+2

If you could overpay by debt, then what would happen if I overpay by $1 and 7 debt with Stonemason? Can I still get two Royal Blacksmiths that way?
Obviously that wouldn't be possible. To get a card, you need to overpay by it's cost, which is 8 debt in this case.
Stef's reason makes sense though.
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Jeebus

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #279 on: May 13, 2016, 10:35:55 am »
+3

Quote
You also cannot take Debt tokens for no reason.
Is there any particular reason to prohibit it? I mean, it looks pretty futile, but we're allowed to play Treasures and even spend coin tokens for no reason.

You have to be able to spend Coin tokens for no reason.  And by definition, your Buy phase lets you play any or all of your Treasures.

More relevant to taking Debt tokens is the fact that you can't pay for no reason. If you have $6 in your pool, you can't just choose to pay $2 for no reason, so that you're left with $4. You have to either buy something, or an effect has to let you pay. (This is relevant for Storyteller.)

GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #280 on: May 13, 2016, 10:41:25 am »
+1

Quote
You also cannot take Debt tokens for no reason.
Is there any particular reason to prohibit it? I mean, it looks pretty futile, but we're allowed to play Treasures and even spend coin tokens for no reason.

You have to be able to spend Coin tokens for no reason.  And by definition, your Buy phase lets you play any or all of your Treasures.

More relevant to taking Debt tokens is the fact that you can't pay for no reason. If you have $6 in your pool, you can't just choose to pay $2 for no reason, so that you're left with $4. You have to either buy something, or an effect has to let you pay. (This is relevant for Storyteller.)

Fun fact; Storyteller is suddenly no longer an automatic cantrip!
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #281 on: May 13, 2016, 10:44:05 am »
+2

Quote
You also cannot take Debt tokens for no reason.
Is there any particular reason to prohibit it? I mean, it looks pretty futile, but we're allowed to play Treasures and even spend coin tokens for no reason.

You have to be able to spend Coin tokens for no reason.  And by definition, your Buy phase lets you play any or all of your Treasures.

More relevant to taking Debt tokens is the fact that you can't pay for no reason. If you have $6 in your pool, you can't just choose to pay $2 for no reason, so that you're left with $4. You have to either buy something, or an effect has to let you pay. (This is relevant for Storyteller.)

Fun fact; Storyteller is suddenly no longer an automatic cantrip!

It already wasn't, with the -$1 token. #edgecases4lyfe
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #282 on: May 13, 2016, 10:45:55 am »
0

Quote
You also cannot take Debt tokens for no reason.
Is there any particular reason to prohibit it? I mean, it looks pretty futile, but we're allowed to play Treasures and even spend coin tokens for no reason.

You have to be able to spend Coin tokens for no reason.  And by definition, your Buy phase lets you play any or all of your Treasures.

More relevant to taking Debt tokens is the fact that you can't pay for no reason. If you have $6 in your pool, you can't just choose to pay $2 for no reason, so that you're left with $4. You have to either buy something, or an effect has to let you pay. (This is relevant for Storyteller.)

Fun fact; Storyteller is suddenly no longer an automatic cantrip!

It never was; there was the -$1 token. Also, since you can't pay off debt in your action phase, it has no effect on Storyteller.

GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #283 on: May 13, 2016, 10:47:12 am »
0

Quote
You also cannot take Debt tokens for no reason.
Is there any particular reason to prohibit it? I mean, it looks pretty futile, but we're allowed to play Treasures and even spend coin tokens for no reason.

You have to be able to spend Coin tokens for no reason.  And by definition, your Buy phase lets you play any or all of your Treasures.

More relevant to taking Debt tokens is the fact that you can't pay for no reason. If you have $6 in your pool, you can't just choose to pay $2 for no reason, so that you're left with $4. You have to either buy something, or an effect has to let you pay. (This is relevant for Storyteller.)

Fun fact; Storyteller is suddenly no longer an automatic cantrip!

It never was; there was the -$1 token. Also, since you can't pay off debt in your action phase, it has no effect on Storyteller.

It's not because of Debt.
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Jeebus

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #284 on: May 13, 2016, 10:47:51 am »
+2

With potions, you can only overpay with the Potions you actually have. With debt, you would be overpaying with things you don't have, you just promise to take them. There would be no boundary on the amount of debt you could promise to take.

A reasonably likely problem scenario is if we both have multi-possessions in an engine. In these games you want to use the other players deck to buy victory cards, while your own deck should produce as little coins as possible. How convenient if you can buy a Masterpiece and overpay with 1.000.000.000 debt, completely disabling your own deck for the foreseeable future. Except that your opponent can answer with a similar move...

This is a potential problem that might arise if you could overpay with debt. It's only a problem in Kingdoms with Possession and an overpay card. But the result of the "problem" is not very different from players trashing their decks after they have a Possession so that it can't be used by the other player. That is to say, it's a problem with Possession, not with debt overpay (to paraphrase Donald in another context). The trashing only happens in some Possession games, but when it does, the game is ruined. It might be the same with debt overpay/Possession.

But: It still doesn't mean that debt overpay is not the logical extension of the rules we have with overpay and Potions. I'm convinced that it is. So this is as special-case ruling.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 11:07:14 am by Jeebus »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #285 on: May 13, 2016, 10:59:04 am »
+9

Whoops.

EDIT: In my defense, I was going by the version of the rulebook I have access to, which stipulates very clearly that you can overpay with debt.

Don't. Just... Don't. We... we trusted you, LFN... sniff...

I think you're joking, but I am feeling pretty bad about it. If I'd had a better memory or had done more thorough checking, I might at least have avoiding giving false information.

There's no recovering.  Might as well just leave the forums now.

I guess I could. Seems like the fashionable thing to do nowadays.
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golden_cow2

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #286 on: May 13, 2016, 11:23:45 am »
+1

Even if overpaying with debt is strange, it's stranger still that debt acts like an alternate cost similar to potion in all ways except for overpay cards -- where you can overpay with potions but not debt. Yes, you can justify it by making some sort of distinction (ie, potions are something you have but debt is something you gain), but it would be far easier to remember a consistent rule. Either you can overpay with any "currency" or you can only overpay with currency that the card originally cost. For example, for Stonemason you should be allowed to overpay with both debt and potions or with neither.

That, and consistency is important if we ever have more overpay cards or alternate currencies in the future.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #287 on: May 13, 2016, 11:30:58 am »
+1

Even if overpaying with debt is strange, it's stranger still that debt acts like an alternate cost similar to potion in all ways except for overpay cards -- where you can overpay with potions but not debt. Yes, you can justify it by making some sort of distinction (ie, potions are something you have but debt is something you gain), but it would be far easier to remember a consistent rule. Either you can overpay with any "currency" or you can only overpay with currency that the card originally cost. For example, for Stonemason you should be allowed to overpay with both debt and potions or with neither.

That, and consistency is important if we ever have more overpay cards or alternate currencies in the future.

Seems like the correct thing to do is simply not consider Debt to be 'currency' like Coins and Potions are.  And they are different.  Debt it something that affects your play in a specific way: you cannot buy cards when you have nonzero amounts, and you may spend Coin to reduce Debt.  You don't really 'spend' Debt like you do Coin and Potion.

Edit: Like, you can't 'Overpay' with Debt because you don't 'pay' with Debt.  Debt is just something that you gain when you buy certain cards:

Quote
That reddish hexagon means you don't pay for City Quarter or Royal Blacksmith up front. Instead you take some tokens that say how much you owe.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 11:33:33 am by Witherweaver »
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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #288 on: May 13, 2016, 11:33:48 am »
0

Seems like the correct thing to do is simply not consider Debt to be 'currency' like Coins and Potions are.  And they are different.  Debt it something that affects your play in a specific way: you cannot buy cards when you have nonzero amounts, and you may spend Coin to reduce Debt.  You don't really 'spend' Debt like you do Coin and Potion.

That's debt tokens you're talking about, not paying debt.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #289 on: May 13, 2016, 11:35:22 am »
+2

Seems like the correct thing to do is simply not consider Debt to be 'currency' like Coins and Potions are.  And they are different.  Debt it something that affects your play in a specific way: you cannot buy cards when you have nonzero amounts, and you may spend Coin to reduce Debt.  You don't really 'spend' Debt like you do Coin and Potion.

That's debt tokens you're talking about, not paying debt.

I'm saying you don't really 'pay debt'.
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markusin

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #290 on: May 13, 2016, 11:35:46 am »
0

Even if overpaying with debt is strange, it's stranger still that debt acts like an alternate cost similar to potion in all ways except for overpay cards -- where you can overpay with potions but not debt. Yes, you can justify it by making some sort of distinction (ie, potions are something you have but debt is something you gain), but it would be far easier to remember a consistent rule. Either you can overpay with any "currency" or you can only overpay with currency that the card originally cost. For example, for Stonemason you should be allowed to overpay with both debt and potions or with neither.

That, and consistency is important if we ever have more overpay cards or alternate currencies in the future.

Seems like the correct thing to do is simply not consider Debt to be 'currency' like Coins and Potions are.  And they are different.  Debt it something that affects your play in a specific way: you cannot buy cards when you have nonzero amounts, and you may spend Coin to reduce Debt.  You don't really 'spend' Debt like you do Coin and Potion.

This is how I see it. Debt isn't like Potion in every way except overpay because I can choose to ignore Debt and buy City Quarter for $8. Debt cost cards allow the difference to be made up for by accruing debt. It makes more sense for me to say debt is dissimilar to Potion except when it comes to cards that care about cost. And they're only similar in that regard because neither can be directly compared to coin cost.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #291 on: May 13, 2016, 11:36:30 am »
+1

I don't think that "paying" debt makes any sense at all, and I don't think that it is inconsistent with considering debt as part of the cost of a card.  Debt is a contract to pay some amount of coins in the future. Accepting that contract is part of the "cost" of obtaining Fortune, just like the 8 coins also are, but you do not "pay" for the card with that contract. It is a required condition of receiving it.

(I know I won't convince anyone who thinks differently here, but I agree with the ruling as is.)

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #292 on: May 13, 2016, 11:36:52 am »
0

Seems like the correct thing to do is simply not consider Debt to be 'currency' like Coins and Potions are.  And they are different.  Debt it something that affects your play in a specific way: you cannot buy cards when you have nonzero amounts, and you may spend Coin to reduce Debt.  You don't really 'spend' Debt like you do Coin and Potion.

That's debt tokens you're talking about, not paying debt.

I'm saying you don't really 'pay debt'.

I'm saying you do.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #293 on: May 13, 2016, 11:37:34 am »
+1

Seems like the correct thing to do is simply not consider Debt to be 'currency' like Coins and Potions are.  And they are different.  Debt it something that affects your play in a specific way: you cannot buy cards when you have nonzero amounts, and you may spend Coin to reduce Debt.  You don't really 'spend' Debt like you do Coin and Potion.

That's debt tokens you're talking about, not paying debt.

I'm saying you don't really 'pay debt'.

I'm saying you do.

Well we got ourselves an old-fashioned standoff.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #294 on: May 13, 2016, 11:37:43 am »
+6

I can choose to ignore Debt and buy City Quarter for $8.

Except you can't do this.  You have to buy City Quarter, receive 8 Debt tokens, and then pay them off.  Just because you wouldn't actually do it this way in a RL game doesn't mean that isn't how the game mechanics work.


(I suppose I can't be 100% confident the rules to be worded this way... but I expect them to be.)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 11:38:57 am by Deadlock39 »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #295 on: May 13, 2016, 11:40:48 am »
0

Even if overpaying with debt is strange, it's stranger still that debt acts like an alternate cost similar to potion in all ways except for overpay cards -- where you can overpay with potions but not debt. Yes, you can justify it by making some sort of distinction (ie, potions are something you have but debt is something you gain), but it would be far easier to remember a consistent rule. Either you can overpay with any "currency" or you can only overpay with currency that the card originally cost. For example, for Stonemason you should be allowed to overpay with both debt and potions or with neither.

That, and consistency is important if we ever have more overpay cards or alternate currencies in the future.

Seems like the correct thing to do is simply not consider Debt to be 'currency' like Coins and Potions are.  And they are different.  Debt it something that affects your play in a specific way: you cannot buy cards when you have nonzero amounts, and you may spend Coin to reduce Debt.  You don't really 'spend' Debt like you do Coin and Potion.

Edit: Like, you can't 'Overpay' with Debt because you don't 'pay' with Debt.  Debt is just something that you gain when you buy certain cards:

Quote
That reddish hexagon means you don't pay for City Quarter or Royal Blacksmith up front. Instead you take some tokens that say how much you owe.

And I could just as easily say that you "pay" a debt cost by taking debt tokens just as you pay a potion cost or a coin cost by removing that many potions/coins from your pool. I already mentioned that you could make any distinction you want between potion costs and debt costs and it would be valid -- but it would be inconsistent. I was already surprised to find out that you could overpay with potions, now I must remember that you cannot overpay with debt when in all other cases potions and debt work the same way. It might not be difficult to remember (it probably will be for some people), but the point here is future-proofing. I don't want to have to remember 100 different edge cases and exceptions when we get to the 30th Dominion expansion.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #296 on: May 13, 2016, 11:42:12 am »
0

At least that's how Donald described the process.
So, you have $4, you buy City Quarter, you get 8 Debt, you pay off 4 of it immediately, you have 4 debt left.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #297 on: May 13, 2016, 11:49:45 am »
+1

At least that's how Donald described the process.
So, you have $4, you buy City Quarter, you get 8 Debt, you pay off 4 of it immediately, you have 4 debt left.

I'm not sure what you mean there; I don't see why that's paying Debt, if that's what you're saying.  You buy City Quarter by spending a Buy; you get 8 Debt tokens (or 8 'Debt', counted by those tokens).  You are allowed to spend Coin to reduce that. 

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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #298 on: May 13, 2016, 11:52:38 am »
0

I was refering to this, I missed the post in between.

I can choose to ignore Debt and buy City Quarter for $8.

Except you can't do this.  You have to buy City Quarter, receive 8 Debt tokens, and then pay them off.  Just because you wouldn't actually do it this way in a RL game doesn't mean that isn't how the game mechanics work.


(I suppose I can't be 100% confident the rules to be worded this way... but I expect them to be.)
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Witherweaver

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #299 on: May 13, 2016, 11:55:00 am »
+1

Even if overpaying with debt is strange, it's stranger still that debt acts like an alternate cost similar to potion in all ways except for overpay cards -- where you can overpay with potions but not debt. Yes, you can justify it by making some sort of distinction (ie, potions are something you have but debt is something you gain), but it would be far easier to remember a consistent rule. Either you can overpay with any "currency" or you can only overpay with currency that the card originally cost. For example, for Stonemason you should be allowed to overpay with both debt and potions or with neither.

That, and consistency is important if we ever have more overpay cards or alternate currencies in the future.

Seems like the correct thing to do is simply not consider Debt to be 'currency' like Coins and Potions are.  And they are different.  Debt it something that affects your play in a specific way: you cannot buy cards when you have nonzero amounts, and you may spend Coin to reduce Debt.  You don't really 'spend' Debt like you do Coin and Potion.

Edit: Like, you can't 'Overpay' with Debt because you don't 'pay' with Debt.  Debt is just something that you gain when you buy certain cards:

Quote
That reddish hexagon means you don't pay for City Quarter or Royal Blacksmith up front. Instead you take some tokens that say how much you owe.

And I could just as easily say that you "pay" a debt cost by taking debt tokens just as you pay a potion cost or a coin cost by removing that many potions/coins from your pool. I already mentioned that you could make any distinction you want between potion costs and debt costs and it would be valid -- but it would be inconsistent. I was already surprised to find out that you could overpay with potions, now I must remember that you cannot overpay with debt when in all other cases potions and debt work the same way. It might not be difficult to remember (it probably will be for some people), but the point here is future-proofing. I don't want to have to remember 100 different edge cases and exceptions when we get to the 30th Dominion expansion.

But I'd argue that doesn't make sense.  You have Stonemason on board.  You decide to 'Overpay' with 5 Debt.  You gain 5 Debt tokens, and, uh.. fail to gain anything, because nothing costs 5 Debt.  (I should mention there are no 'Debt cost' cards on the board.) But now you have 5 Debt, which I guess you can go ahead and spend 5 Coin to pay off, if you had it.  Or keep it around to prevent yourself from buying something.

This kind of weirdness doesn't exist with Potion.  You add Potion to your currency by playing a certain card (namely, Potion).  You spend those Potions as you do Coins.  If you can't generate Potion, then you can't spend it. 
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