Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13 ... 16  All

Author Topic: Empires Previews #1: Debt  (Read 170687 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #250 on: May 12, 2016, 08:33:11 pm »
+3

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

Yes, this is legal.

What, seriously?  Again, based on the wording of Overpay cards, you could overpay by an infinite amount of Debt.

Correct. In the case you overpay by e.g. 1000 debt, I recommend using grains of rice for substitute debt tokens.

All of a sudden I'm very glad MF is never implementing Empires.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2466
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #251 on: May 12, 2016, 08:33:24 pm »
+1

So are you allowed to overpay just $1 and take on $7 debt??
Logged

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2466
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #252 on: May 12, 2016, 08:34:45 pm »
0

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

Yes, this is legal.

What, seriously?  Again, based on the wording of Overpay cards, you could overpay by an infinite amount of Debt.

Correct. In the case you overpay by e.g. 1000 debt, I recommend using grains of rice for substitute debt tokens.

All of a sudden I'm very glad MF is never implementing Empires.

Even if they tried, it wouldn't be ready by the end of the year.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #253 on: May 12, 2016, 08:35:04 pm »
0

So are you allowed to overpay just $1 and take on $7 debt??

I don't understand this question either. Could you please rephrase it?
Logged

drsteelhammer

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1527
  • Shuffle iT Username: drsteelhammer
  • Respect: +1470
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #254 on: May 12, 2016, 08:36:39 pm »
0

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

Yes, this is legal.

But you don't buy the cards there, why do you have debt?

I don't understand your question.

So far I've learned that you only get debt tokens when buying debt cards. Here you only debt cards. Does it say somewhere in the rulebook that I have to take the tokens when I overpay with them?
Logged
Join the Dominion League!

There is no bad shuffle that can not be surmounted by scorn.

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #255 on: May 12, 2016, 08:38:57 pm »
+1

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

Yes, this is legal.

But you don't buy the cards there, why do you have debt?

My understanding: you have debt because you overpaid by that amount.  When you use Stonemason's card to gain non-debt cards you aren't buying them then either. 

It seems that Debt is just another currency like Coin and Potion, it's just a little funny in that paying 1 debt means taking a debt token (which you'll pay a coin to return later), whereas paying 1 coin or 1 potion means deducting that amount from your current amount of coins/potions.

When you overpay, you pay some amount in addition to the base cost of the card.  So when you overpay in debt, you take some amount of debt tokens in addition to the base cost of the card.

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

Yes, this is legal.

What, seriously?  Again, based on the wording of Overpay cards, you could overpay by an infinite amount of Debt.

Sure you can, but it's not recommended.

Edit: Well, I was basing my understanding on LF's ruling and it looks like that ruling was wrong.  ::)
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 08:46:37 pm by eHalcyon »
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25671
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #256 on: May 12, 2016, 08:44:20 pm »
+8

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

Yes, this is legal.
Incorrect.

You cannot overpay with Debt. You also cannot take Debt tokens for no reason.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #257 on: May 12, 2016, 09:07:52 pm »
+4

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

Yes, this is legal.
Incorrect.

You cannot overpay with Debt. You also cannot take Debt tokens for no reason.

Whoops.

EDIT: In my defense, I was going by the version of the rulebook I have access to, which stipulates very clearly that you can overpay with debt.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 09:11:13 pm by LastFootnote »
Logged

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1477
  • Respect: +1644
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #258 on: May 12, 2016, 10:21:31 pm »
0

In my defense, I was going by the version of the rulebook I have access to, which stipulates very clearly that you can overpay with debt.
That does make sense if debt is "like Potions". I'm surprised it's not the case. Very surprised.

So surprised that I'm wondering if Donald X. inadvertently answered the question "can you run up debt in order to overpay by more money?" rather than "can you run up debt in order to overpay debt?".
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #259 on: May 12, 2016, 10:27:49 pm »
0

In my defense, I was going by the version of the rulebook I have access to, which stipulates very clearly that you can overpay with debt.
That does make sense if debt is "like Potions". I'm surprised it's not the case. Very surprised.

So surprised that I'm wondering if Donald X. inadvertently answered the question "can you run up debt in order to overpay by more money?" rather than "can you run up debt in order to overpay debt?".

When I was trying to make sense of LF's answer, I defined "pay X debt" as "take X debt tokens" so it was all logical.  But if you don't make sure to specify that definition in the rules, I think it's more natural to think that you can't pay debt.  You can pay off debt, or you can take on debt, but you don't just pay debt.  The weird thing for Dominion is that you need a way to compare costs when the cost involves debt, and the ruling is that they work like Potions.
Logged

pacovf

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3499
  • Multiediting poster
  • Respect: +3838
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #260 on: May 12, 2016, 10:39:00 pm »
+4

Whoops.

EDIT: In my defense, I was going by the version of the rulebook I have access to, which stipulates very clearly that you can overpay with debt.

Don't. Just... Don't. We... we trusted you, LFN... sniff...
Logged
pacovf has a neopets account.  It has 999 hours logged.  All his neopets are named "Jessica".  I guess that must be his ex.

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25671
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #261 on: May 12, 2016, 11:03:08 pm »
+1

In my defense, I was going by the version of the rulebook I have access to, which stipulates very clearly that you can overpay with debt.
That does make sense if debt is "like Potions". I'm surprised it's not the case. Very surprised.

So surprised that I'm wondering if Donald X. inadvertently answered the question "can you run up debt in order to overpay by more money?" rather than "can you run up debt in order to overpay debt?".
I'm not sure I understand but I probably didn't inadvertently answer the wrong question.

There are more overpay cards than Stonemason. Overpaying by debt either had to be possible with all or none of them. It was weird with the other ones.
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2479
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #262 on: May 12, 2016, 11:05:37 pm »
0

Ha, so I was right, mostly for the wrong reasons. Debt isn't really (over)paying, you know?
Logged

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #263 on: May 12, 2016, 11:06:23 pm »
0

There are more overpay cards than Stonemason. Overpaying by debt either had to be possible with all or none of them. It was weird with the other ones.

Weirder than overpaying by Potion?

...Okay, yeah, I see what you mean, it is.
Logged

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1477
  • Respect: +1644
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #264 on: May 12, 2016, 11:18:42 pm »
0

I'm not sure I understand but I probably didn't inadvertently answer the wrong question.
Scenario A: After playing treasures, Jack has $3 to spend. He then takes two debt tokens and buys a Stonemason, overpaying by $3 to gain a pair of Villages as well.

That's plainly illegal.

Scenario B: After playing treasures, Jill has $3 to spend. She takes eight debt tokens and buys a Stonemason, overpaying by [8] to gain a pair of City Quarters as well. (And then spends her spare $1 wiping out one of the debt tokens.)

That, I really expected to be legal.

Quote
You also cannot take Debt tokens for no reason.
Is there any particular reason to prohibit it? I mean, it looks pretty futile, but we're allowed to play Treasures and even spend coin tokens for no reason.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8172
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9625
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #265 on: May 12, 2016, 11:25:52 pm »
0

Quote
You also cannot take Debt tokens for no reason.
Is there any particular reason to prohibit it? I mean, it looks pretty futile, but we're allowed to play Treasures and even spend coin tokens for no reason.

You have to be able to spend Coin tokens for no reason.  And by definition, your Buy phase lets you play any or all of your Treasures.

But, you are not allowed to do the following with no reason:
-trash a card
-discard a card outside your Clean-up phase
-look through your discard pile
-take Coin tokens
-take Victory tokens
-gain cards
-reveal cards from your or your opponents' decks or hands or fanny packs

Need I go on?
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

Marcory

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 715
  • Respect: +1203
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #266 on: May 12, 2016, 11:52:48 pm »
0

Quote
You also cannot take Debt tokens for no reason.
Is there any particular reason to prohibit it? I mean, it looks pretty futile, but we're allowed to play Treasures and even spend coin tokens for no reason.

You have to be able to spend Coin tokens for no reason.  And by definition, your Buy phase lets you play any or all of your Treasures.

But, you are not allowed to do the following with no reason:
-trash a card
-discard a card outside your Clean-up phase
-look through your discard pile
-take Coin tokens
-take Victory tokens
-gain cards
-reveal cards from your or your opponents' decks or hands or fanny packs

Need I go on?

Another implicit caveat--you can't take Coin, VP, or Adventures tokens unless a Card/Event/Landmark that gives those tokens is in the Supply. If taking Debt for no reason was a thing, then you could take it even in a Base only game--or in an Alchemy-only game, to counter Possession (which is the only reason I can think of to randomly take Debt).
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6357
  • Respect: +25671
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #267 on: May 13, 2016, 12:12:22 am »
+2

Quote
You also cannot take Debt tokens for no reason.
Is there any particular reason to prohibit it? I mean, it looks pretty futile, but we're allowed to play Treasures and even spend coin tokens for no reason.
Just common human decency.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #268 on: May 13, 2016, 01:21:13 am »
+1

Whoops.

EDIT: In my defense, I was going by the version of the rulebook I have access to, which stipulates very clearly that you can overpay with debt.

Don't. Just... Don't. We... we trusted you, LFN... sniff...

I think you're joking, but I am feeling pretty bad about it. If I'd had a better memory or had done more thorough checking, I might at least have avoiding giving false information.
Logged

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1477
  • Respect: +1644
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #269 on: May 13, 2016, 09:19:08 am »
+2

Actually, having slept on it, I've changed my mind and see why the Stonecutter ruling went the way it did.

While debt is like Potions in terms of the costs of cards, it is not like Potions in terms of the spending power being generated during the "play" part of the Buy phase. Instead, debt is generated during the "spend" part of the Buy phase, strictly on buying a specific card.

Happy now.
Logged

Cuzz

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 623
  • Shuffle iT Username: Cuzz
  • Respect: +1018
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #270 on: May 13, 2016, 09:24:50 am »
+2

Actually, having slept on it, I've changed my mind and see why the Stonecutter ruling went the way it did.

I mean...Homer got barbecue sauce all over the Sacred Parchment; they had little choice.
Logged

Watno

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Watno
  • Respect: +2982
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #271 on: May 13, 2016, 09:27:00 am »
+1

There are more overpay cards than Stonemason. Overpaying by debt either had to be possible with all or none of them. It was weird with the other ones.

Weirder than overpaying by Potion?

...Okay, yeah, I see what you mean, it is.

I don't see it, can someone enlighten me? (I see it would have been a huge problem with the old Possession, but with the errata'd version I see absolutely no issues that don't already exist for overpaying with Potion).
Logged

crj

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1477
  • Respect: +1644
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #272 on: May 13, 2016, 09:29:15 am »
+1

If taking Debt for no reason was a thing, then you could take it even in a Base only game--or in an Alchemy-only game, to counter Possession (which is the only reason I can think of to randomly take Debt).
Being able to take debt voluntarily to counter Possession would be awesome! It would both weaken a controversial and powerful card, and lead to interesting strategic decisions.

By my reckoning, if you quantify the expected benefit to you at this point in the game of taking a turn, and call that b, that means it's worth b to play Possession on you. If you deliberately took a debt of b before your turn then you lose b if you're not Possessed, and your opponent gets no benefit from Possessing you, so they won't.

If you take a debt of b/2, however, your opponent has a choice between Possessing you (benefit of b/2 to you by paying off your debt, residual benefit of b/2 to them) or not. You've turned Possessing you into a break-even decision.

But your opponent might not be in a position to play Possession. Say the probability of it being possible next turn is p, I think you should take a debt of pb/2.

This ignores all sorts of side-issues and complications, but illustrates the kind of consideration that would arise.
Logged

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2745
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3457
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #273 on: May 13, 2016, 09:31:22 am »
0

There are more overpay cards than Stonemason. Overpaying by debt either had to be possible with all or none of them. It was weird with the other ones.

Weirder than overpaying by Potion?

...Okay, yeah, I see what you mean, it is.

I don't see it, can someone enlighten me? (I see it would have been a huge problem with the old Possession, but with the errata'd version I see absolutely no issues that don't already exist for overpaying with Potion).

I think people with less of an understanding of Dominion would think of debt as interchangeable with Money when overpaying. Obviously no one is going to mix up Potions and Coins, but people might treat debt the same way as coins for things like Herald or whatever. You also can't take arbitrary amounts of debt like you can have arbitrary amounts of coins - debt is given to you, Coins are taken from you, etc.

No inside info just my intuition here, could be wrong, etc
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

pm me if you wanna do stuff for the blog

they/them

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6476
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7861
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #274 on: May 13, 2016, 09:33:22 am »
+1

Whoops.

EDIT: In my defense, I was going by the version of the rulebook I have access to, which stipulates very clearly that you can overpay with debt.

Don't. Just... Don't. We... we trusted you, LFN... sniff...

I think you're joking, but I am feeling pretty bad about it. If I'd had a better memory or had done more thorough checking, I might at least have avoiding giving false information.

There's no recovering.  Might as well just leave the forums now.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13 ... 16  All
 

Page created in 1.789 seconds with 21 queries.