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Author Topic: Empires Previews #1: Debt  (Read 71392 times)

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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #175 on: May 09, 2016, 06:15:30 pm »
0

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

Capital/Herbalist with a Princed Scheme buys a Province every turn.
How?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #176 on: May 09, 2016, 06:20:20 pm »
+1

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

Capital/Herbalist with a Princed Scheme buys a Province every turn.

Why not just Prince Herbalist? Also my Minion stack laughs at such foolish notions.

The Scheme is for Moat.  ;)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #177 on: May 09, 2016, 06:26:22 pm »
+1

Capital won't be a bad card. It'll be great in colony games, but could also be a useful to make mega turns.

Even with a generic board though, it works out as though you're playing a 0, but it can smooth over any inconsistencies. If you can't trash starting copper then you often find yourself with 2 buys and 7 one turn then 1 buy with 10 the next.
If the above holds, receiving the card instead of a copper: turn one allows you to buy 2 5s, and repay the four loan the next turn, still leaving you with a gold turn two; turn two it could spike double province, double gold, or just be a useful second buy.
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tastor

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #178 on: May 09, 2016, 06:35:21 pm »
0

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

Capital/Herbalist with a Princed Scheme buys a Province every turn.
How?

Well more accurately it will get you $7 each turn but it is hard to imagine not being able to get another $1 from the 3 other cards you draw plus the extra one from Prince playing Scheme each turn.
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math

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #179 on: May 09, 2016, 06:35:56 pm »
0

Capital won't be a bad card. It'll be great in colony games, but could also be a useful to make mega turns.

Even with a generic board though, it works out as though you're playing a 0, but it can smooth over any inconsistencies. If you can't trash starting copper then you often find yourself with 2 buys and 7 one turn then 1 buy with 10 the next.
If the above holds, receiving the card instead of a copper: turn one allows you to buy 2 5s, and repay the four loan the next turn, still leaving you with a gold turn two; turn two it could spike double province, double gold, or just be a useful second buy.

Yes, but almost all $5 cards compare favorably to Copper.  They just don't compare favorably to other $5 cards.  If I was offered some free Capital, I would definitely take it, but there's opportunity cost to worry about.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #180 on: May 09, 2016, 06:37:07 pm »
+2

New thought for fan cards (and maybe some official cards that are yet to be revealed): a cheap debt card would be a lot like a regular cost card, because you wouldn't often need to put off paying for it.  But it would have an important distinction - you can't gain it with cost-based gainers like Workshop, and you can't reduce its cost (unless there is a new card that does that specifically).  You could also mix regular coin costs and debt costs to make something that essentially reduces in cost to a positive minimum.

Because of that clause, I suspect that there will be some card that cares directly about how much debt you have or whether you have debt. Maybe something that multiplies opponents' debt. Otherwise paying off debt early would be unnecessary, since the next time you could buy a card, you could just pay off the debt then.

(Except Black Market, but that's hardly a reason for that whole line of text.)

I thought that at first, but the clause is also helpful if you don't need the full $6 from Capital.  As a simple case, suppose you only want to buy 2 Curses this turn for some reason.  You play Capital for the +Buy and don't need the $6 at all.  Without that clause, you are $6 in debt next turn.  The clause lets you pay off the debt immediately instead.  (I see Watno said this more succinctly than I did.)

I now want there to be a way to save up unused money from previous turns to pre-pay debt.
That's called coin tokens... right?

I assume you can use coin tokens to play off debt. It's a bit like a matter-antimatter annihilation.

Remember that you spend coin tokens at the start of the Buy phase to generate +$1 each; you can't just spend them any time you want.  So at the start of your buy phase, you spend however many coin tokens you want.  Then you can pay off your debt your accumulated coins, whether you got them from actions, treasures or coin tokens.

Donald. There is no Emperor card.

How do you know?

I don't know if I've said this before, but having a King/Queen/Emperor card just seems wrong, because the player is supposed to be those things. I think MTG has a thing where you can play cards that are like players, but I don't think Dominion should.

Another thing, I like that you can open with both City Quarter and Royal Blacksmith, but you don't want to.

That's why the Emperor card just has reflective foil instead of card art. ;)

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.

Still wouldn't be clear.  The Possessor gaining the debt tokens is not necessarily a bad thing, because it means the Possessed player can continue to buy debt-cost cards without paying them off immediately.

Nobody is asking the important questions yet.

How are we going to include these in the Qvist community card rankings?

I'd count an <X> cost card as an $X card.  You don't have to pay the full coin cost up-front, but you have to pay it eventually (unless you carry it to the end of the game).

Also, may have been answered before, but paying off debt does NOT use a Buy, correct?

Correct.  That's how Capital lets you pay off Debt in your Clean-up phase.

No, Capital lets you pay off Debt in Clean-up because it says so.  It would work even if it normally cost a Buy to pay off debt, just like how Cultist lets you play another Cultist for free even though it usually requires an action.

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

My initial guess would be to put it somewhere just below the middle of the list; often skippable, sometimes really good and usually not totally ignorable, similar to Knights.

I'll guess that it's above the middle.  More specifically, I expect that it will be very dependent on the rest of the board.  It looks to me like one of the best cards for spiking high costs.  +$6 is better than any other static coin producer, and it doesn't even have a requirement attached to it (like Baron, for example).  You hurt your next turn or two, but that's a small price to pay to grab a quick King's Court or Grand Market, or even to reach Colony in a junky deck that keeps topping out at $5-$6 a turn.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #181 on: May 09, 2016, 06:40:58 pm »
+5

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

Capital/Herbalist with a Princed Scheme buys a Province every turn.

I will try to remember this for the 1 in (math math math) eleventy billion games that includes four specific cards out of the 225 or so.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #182 on: May 09, 2016, 08:51:28 pm »
0

Because of that clause, I suspect that there will be some card that cares directly about how much debt you have or whether you have debt. Maybe something that multiplies opponents' debt. Otherwise paying off debt early would be unnecessary, since the next time you could buy a card, you could just pay off the debt then.

(Except Black Market, but that's hardly a reason for that whole line of text.)

I thought that at first, but the clause is also helpful if you don't need the full $6 from Capital.  As a simple case, suppose you only want to buy 2 Curses this turn for some reason.  You play Capital for the +Buy and don't need the $6 at all.  Without that clause, you are $6 in debt next turn.  The clause lets you pay off the debt immediately instead.  (I see Watno said this more succinctly than I did.)

I got it now! I had figured you could pay off the debt after your buy anyway. But you don't actually have the debt to pay off until you discard Capital, at which point you are done buying.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #183 on: May 09, 2016, 08:55:39 pm »
0

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

Capital/Herbalist with a Princed Scheme buys a Province every turn.

I will try to remember this for the 1 in (math math math) eleventy billion games that includes four specific cards out of the 225 or so.

Any deck-drawing engine with Herbalist and Capital can benefit from the interaction. Or just buy a zillion Herbalists a la Herbalist/Philosopher's Stone.

Marcory

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #184 on: May 09, 2016, 08:55:58 pm »
0

Can Band of Misfits be a debt-cost card? Or is Debt a separate currency, like Potions?
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werothegreat

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #185 on: May 09, 2016, 08:58:20 pm »
0

I just realized Bridge Troll could hand out a Debt token instead of using the - token.  But that would be stackable, and therefore much, much worse...
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #186 on: May 09, 2016, 08:58:56 pm »
+3

Can Band of Misfits be a debt-cost card? Or is Debt a separate currency, like Potions?

The one tricky thing is how these things work when cards compare costs. There it works like Potion: apples and oranges. A reddish hexagon with an 8 isn't more or less than $3.
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #187 on: May 09, 2016, 09:08:52 pm »
+2

Another theme of the two most recent expansions is improving Counting House.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #188 on: May 09, 2016, 09:13:41 pm »
+1

Another theme of the two most recent expansions is improving Counting House.

Hmm.  Royal Blacksmith kind of is an inverse CH.  Similarly, City Quarter is kind of an inverse Shanty Town.  But which is more useful?  Being able to draw into Actions if you don't have any?  Or being able to draw if you're already filled up on Actions?
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #189 on: May 09, 2016, 09:21:05 pm »
0

Along the lines of bad openers, there could be a inverse coppersmith:
???????? Costs <8>
+$4. +1 Buy: Take a debt token for each copper in play
While this is in play, copper produces 1 less (Or you cannot play copper this turn)
Seems somewhat balanced.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #190 on: May 09, 2016, 09:24:35 pm »
0

(Or you cannot play copper this turn)
Creates rules issues with Venture.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #191 on: May 09, 2016, 09:27:57 pm »
0

I was definitely thinking Swindler would turn red hex 8 into Province, not Curse. The way it is, the Debt cost cards have the Potion cost problem with Swindler: when a pile is empty and you hit that Debt cost card, it's likely you get NOTHING, not even a Province.

I was imagining something similar to Peddler: 8* with text allowing you to lower the cost by taking on Debt.
That sounds like the mirror image of Guilds overpay cards: "Cost 8-  When you buy this you may underpay for it. If you do, gain 1 debt token per $1 you underpaid."

The actual solution seems fine, though: the independent "currency" of red hexagons in card costs is interesting, and as Donald X has pointed out it cuts down on card verbiage.

The only advantage I can see for the "underpay" alternative is that it would have been possible to have cards where things other than debt happened when you underpaid.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #192 on: May 09, 2016, 09:38:57 pm »
+1

Along the lines of bad openers, there could be a inverse coppersmith:
???????? Costs <8>
+$4. +1 Buy: Take a debt token for each copper in play
While this is in play, copper produces 1 less (Or you cannot play copper this turn)
Seems somewhat balanced.

Is that supposed to be a debt token per Copper in play when you buy it?  If so, then it should say, "when you buy this" under a line.  But the while-in-play effect should also be under a line.  Empires may break a lot of our preconceptions for what one can do with a card, but multiple dividing lines??  Never. ;)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #193 on: May 09, 2016, 09:45:05 pm »
+1

Calling a Debt cost VP card.
There was no mention of Reserve cards, so I doubt it.

Can't you conceivably also make it so that you're in debt the turn your opponent possesses you, so he can't buy anything at all?

Your opponent can choose to make you pay off your debt, then if you made enough money you can buy more cards for him to gain.
So now in Possession games, you'll have both players with rubbish decks and a stack of debt tokens, neither willing to pay off either their own or each others' debt because that just enables their opponent to buy actually good cards on the appropriate turns. I'm hereby requesting the makers of Dominion kingdom selection apps to please include a "don't let Possession and debt be in the same game" option.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #194 on: May 09, 2016, 09:55:38 pm »
0

Calling a Debt cost VP card.
There was no mention of Reserve cards, so I doubt it.
It took me forever to get what you were saying.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #195 on: May 09, 2016, 09:59:58 pm »
+9

Calling a Debt cost VP card.
There was no mention of Reserve cards, so I doubt it.
It took me forever to get what you were saying.

Nah, I'd guess that it took you 10 minutes and 33 seconds at most.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #196 on: May 09, 2016, 11:25:12 pm »
0

I just realized Bridge Troll could hand out a Debt token instead of using the - token.  But that would be stackable, and therefore much, much worse...

It's technically not the same effect, either. As an example, if you have two Coppers in hand with one Debt token, you could play the Coppers and discard Wine Merchants from your mat. But with your $1 token, you'd only have $1.
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tristan

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #197 on: May 10, 2016, 03:17:33 am »
0

This debt stuff leads to smoothing and is thus similar to coin tokens (only the other way around). I think that the "buy nothing before you paid off your debt" penalty is simpler than the obvious interest penalty. Interest probably wouldn't work that differently. It is probably hard to hit an implicit interest rate which doesn't incentivize you to not always pay back as much as you can as quickly as you can without making the penalty too weak.
After all this is not a Martin Wallace game in which the debt mechanism is central so it would probably have been hard to implement it such that it leads to interesting decisions.

So the "use(most likely around) two turns to buy a debt card" is probably the best use of a "gain now, pay later" mechanism in Dominion.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #198 on: May 10, 2016, 03:24:25 am »
0

This has probably been answered, but the thread is so long already.  ::)

The "cost" is like a 3rd resource (other than Coins and Potions) and should be treated as such.
But this still means we can Remodel a City Quarter into Royal Blacksmith, right?

Essentially, you can read them both as costing $0 P0 D8.
Also, a CQ can only be Swindled into a CQ or RB.

I sort of like how they're immune to shenanigans like Quarry/Bridge, etc.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #199 on: May 10, 2016, 03:33:19 am »
0

The main reason why I think Capital is definitely going to get purchased a lot more often than Contraband or Cache is that it's insane on your last turn. Insane enough that I bet it will get bought the turn before a lot of the time.
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