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Author Topic: Empires Previews #1: Debt  (Read 59210 times)

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Elestan

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2016, 12:58:28 pm »
+1

All of this debt seems really expensive to me. I wouldn't value being able to pay later and not buying anything till then so highly intuitively.

I was debt-averse when I was first introduced to the mechanic, but it's usually not something you can ignore.  Being able to get a strong card early on can give you a considerable advantage in pacing.  Capital is potent because it effectively lets you use debt to buy cards that weren't priced with debt.  Consider the effect of using Capital to spike a KC, Prince, Platinum...
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crj

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2016, 12:59:31 pm »
+3

I now want there to be a way to save up unused money from previous turns to pre-pay debt.
That's called coin tokens... right?

I assume you can use coin tokens to play off debt. It's a bit like a matter-antimatter annihilation.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2016, 12:59:37 pm »
+7

Donald. There is no Emperor card. There is no Darth Vader card. I am most displeased. The Emperor is even more displeased, because he is of course, not as forgiving as I am.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2016, 01:00:23 pm »
0

What exactly is the new version of Possession?
Do you still need to pay off the debt of the possessed player before buying anything? Does anything about adventures tokens change?

I think it was kinda cool that there where no errata. :(
Dude. Possession. It was bound to happen eventually. In some sense a few cards already have errata - Black Market (you can play Treasures), Pirate Ship (it doesn't mean Guilds tokens), Envoy (it's not drawing).

Nothing about the Adventures tokens changes. If I Possess you and have you buy a City Quarter, I get the Debt. If I have you play a Monument, I get the VP.

So, I assume Debt, VP and Coin Tokens work this way, then. What about Pirate Ship tokens?
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2016, 01:01:19 pm »
+7

Calling a Debt cost VP card.

Debt cost VP card would be  broken assuming you don't need to pay  off the debt of the player you possess. You'd just need enough buys and  could buy them all.

I guess you're right. Maybe it's $2 [4] for 3 VP then or something like that. But that's not incredibly unique. I feel like it would have to also do something extra.

I also love that Possession is getting a nerf. It's not the best card in the world to begin with, but now it's even not as good. :)

I'd call it a buff. Getting your opponent's VP tokens is pretty big.
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Watno

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2016, 01:02:20 pm »
0

Calling a Debt cost VP card.

Debt cost VP card would be  broken assuming you don't need to pay off the debt of the player you possess. You'd just need enough buys and  could buy them all.

"While you have the tokens, you can't buy cards or Events."

Right, but when you're possessing someone and buy a debt card, you get the debt. So you could possess someone, get 10 buys, buy 10 Royal Blacksmiths, and build up 80 debt for yourself.
That's what I meant.
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crj

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2016, 01:03:17 pm »
0

Buying debt cards while possessing someoen sounds pretty good.
Oh right. I forgot to mention it, but Possession is getting errata. No joke, errata. It will now cause the possessing player to also get all tokens the other player would have gotten. This means they will also get VP tokens, which wasn't the point, but was the simplest way to make debt + Possession not suck.
I was going to say that debt+Possession sounded broken unless that was the rule.

Now, it sounds like accumulating some debt is a new way to discourage someone from playing Possession on you. Er... oh... wait - whose debt matters for determing whether or not the Possessed player can buy something, and whose debt does the Possessed player pay off?
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Elestan

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2016, 01:04:09 pm »
+2

Donald. There is no Emperor card.

How do you know?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2016, 01:04:18 pm »
+1

I'm just happy we have another beard.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2016, 01:08:49 pm »
0

Buying debt cards while possessing someoen sounds pretty good.
Oh right. I forgot to mention it, but Possession is getting errata. No joke, errata. It will now cause the possessing player to also get all tokens the other player would have gotten. This means they will also get VP tokens, which wasn't the point, but was the simplest way to make debt + Possession not suck.


Possessor getting the VP or Possessee getting the debt????

I'd go for the latter.  At least in that case it encourages both players to build their decks.  And the Possessor would be forced to pay off debt if possessing multiple turns in a row.  VP tokens going to the Possessor takes away from one very appealing counter to Possession.

EDIT:  Dear goodness.... 30 replies while writing this post.  Haven't read them yet, brute forcing myself in.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2016, 01:09:01 pm »
0

I also love that Possession is getting a nerf. It's not the best card in the world to begin with, but now it's even not as good. :)

It's getting a buff. Previously, you could counter Possession by going for Goons and Bishop and Monument, but now if you do that, your opponent will get the tokens instead when he possesses you.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2016, 01:10:38 pm »
+3

Donald. There is no Emperor card.

How do you know?

I don't know if I've said this before, but having a King/Queen/Emperor card just seems wrong, because the player is supposed to be those things. I think MTG has a thing where you can play cards that are like players, but I don't think Dominion should.

Another thing, I like that you can open with both City Quarter and Royal Blacksmith, but you don't want to.

werothegreat

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2016, 01:12:39 pm »
0

Another thing, I like that you can open with both City Quarter and Royal Blacksmith, but you don't want to.

I believe you mean either of them.  If you buy one on your first turn, you'll have too much debt on your second turn to buy anything.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2016, 01:15:42 pm »
+2

What exactly is the new version of Possession?
Do you still need to pay off the debt of the possessed player before buying anything? Does anything about adventures tokens change?

I think it was kinda cool that there where no errata. :(
Dude. Possession. It was bound to happen eventually. In some sense a few cards already have errata - Black Market (you can play Treasures), Pirate Ship (it doesn't mean Guilds tokens), Envoy (it's not drawing).

Nothing about the Adventures tokens changes.
Alas Possession is one card that the group that I play with has vetoed.  Two of the group had always disliked it, but the final straw was the Borrow event in Adventures: playing with a 4-card hand every time after one was possessed didn't amuse them at all.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2016, 01:15:51 pm »
0

So, I assume Debt, VP and Coin Tokens work this way, then. What about Pirate Ship tokens?
Yes, you also get those tokens.
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J Reggie

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2016, 01:16:36 pm »
+1

Another thing, I like that you can open with both City Quarter and Royal Blacksmith, but you don't want to.

I believe you mean either of them.  If you buy one on your first turn, you'll have too much debt on your second turn to buy anything.

Yes, I meant either. Language is hard when all you can think about is Dominion: Empires.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2016, 01:17:16 pm »
0

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2016, 01:18:24 pm »
+6

So, I assume Debt, VP and Coin Tokens work this way, then. What about Pirate Ship tokens?
Yes, you also get those tokens.

So I can use their Pirate Ships to thin my deck and mine as payload? Miser is so 2015, guys.
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Tables

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2016, 01:20:41 pm »
+12

Nobody is asking the important questions yet.

How are we going to include these in the Qvist community card rankings?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2016, 01:21:31 pm »
0

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.

Here's a topic for speculation: how many debt cards do we think Empires has? It has 16 red hexagons, and we've seen 4 already. I'm thinking somewhere around 8 cards/events/maybe landmarks.

SCSN

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2016, 01:23:11 pm »
+3

EDIT:  Dear goodness.... 30 replies while writing this post.  Haven't read them yet, brute Bruce forcing myself in.

FYP
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Seprix

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2016, 01:23:52 pm »
0

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.

Here's a topic for speculation: how many debt cards do we think Empires has? It has 16 red hexagons, and we've seen 4 already. I'm thinking somewhere around 8 cards/events/maybe landmarks.

I'm assuming you can write your own debt "in credit" (funny enough) for bigger games with more players. I'm going to say that there is probably 7 Debt cards.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2016, 01:24:14 pm »
0

EDIT:  Dear goodness.... 30 replies while writing this post.  Haven't read them yet, brute Bruce forcing myself in.

FYP FTFY

FTFY
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2016, 01:27:34 pm »
+2

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2016, 01:28:05 pm »
0

Nobody is asking the important questions yet.

How are we going to include these in the Qvist community card rankings?

I guess we rank them as $6+

Hmm...


Anyway, ugh, Possession is already a messed up card. And, now the VP thing. Well, I guess you should never buy Bishop if Possession is on the board. Banning the card might not be such a bad idea.
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