Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 16  All

Author Topic: Empires Previews #1: Debt  (Read 68745 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

faust

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2506
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3478
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #100 on: May 09, 2016, 02:14:41 pm »
+7

City Quarter: When revealing a hand of all Rats isn't so bad.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Accatitippi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1145
  • Shuffle iT Username: Accatitippi
  • Silver is underraided
  • Respect: +1776
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #101 on: May 09, 2016, 02:14:54 pm »
0

Speaking of which, Donald, when will the change take effect? Immediately, as soon as MF implements it (few months), 2017...?

What is the purpose of this question? I mean, if you want to use the new rules for Possession IRL, go ahead and do it. I doubt Donald will come out and say "Don't you dare use the errata IRL before MF implemented them!"

And "as soon as MF implements it" probably equals never.

I was thinking specifically about online, but I guess 2017 is the only answer that makes sense, you're right.
Logged

trivialknot

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 682
  • Respect: +1052
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #102 on: May 09, 2016, 02:15:40 pm »
0

Strategy speculation: With debt, high payoff cards become better.  Adventurer, Harvest, Giant, Death Cart, Coppersmith, Counting House are all considered weak, and their most common usage is to spike provinces.  But now you can also use them to pay off debt.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7900
  • Respect: +8716
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #103 on: May 09, 2016, 02:17:17 pm »
+28

Speaking of which, Donald, when will the change take effect? Immediately, as soon as MF implements it (few months), 2017...?

What is the purpose of this question? I mean, if you want to use the new rules for Possession IRL, go ahead and do it. I doubt Donald will come out and say "Don't you dare use the errata IRL before MF implemented them!"

And "as soon as MF implements it" probably equals never.

I'm in the middle of a game IRL this very moment. My opponent just finished his KC-Possession turn where he couldn't do much with my extra turns because I just had a bunch of Monuments. Now I'm playing my KC-Possession megaturn and am going to play all of HIS monuments and take all the VP tokens for myself, because this rule change took place after his turn but before mine.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

faust

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2506
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3478
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #104 on: May 09, 2016, 02:19:18 pm »
0

Adventurer, Harvest, Giant, Death Cart, Coppersmith, Counting House are all considered weak, and their most common usage is to spike provinces.

I kind of doubt that any of those cards' most common usage is to spike Provinces. They're mostly eninge payload, except Counting House, and the main usage of that one is to spike Colonies.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

math

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 307
  • Shuffle iT Username: math
  • Respect: +182
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #105 on: May 09, 2016, 02:29:24 pm »
0

First impressions of the cards themselves:

Royal Blacksmith looks like it will be really strong in any deck that has a way to trash Treasures (Mine might actually be worth it here, if there's nothing else).  It is expensive, but the debt makes it a bit easier to buy, and the strength looks better than Hunting Grounds.  Another thing to note is that if you play two, you've already discarded some Coppers, so the downside isn't as bad the second time.

City Quarter looks good, but it will need the right deck.  If you are playing this without at least 2 other action cards in hand, you probably bought it too early.  It works extremely well with start-of-turn draw effects (Wharf, Caravan, Haunted Woods, Prince, Dungeon).  Other non-terminal draw cards can help out as well if your deck is at least 50% actions.  If you can draw enough actions in your starting hand, this card can stack explosively, similar to Madman or Crossroads. 

Capital seems risky.  Here's a thought experiment.  Let's say you buy this over Gold.  (I know I'm comparing it to a $6 card, but Gold is a good comparison point for a lot of $5 cards.)  Compared to Gold, on the turn you play it, this card gives you +$3, +1 Buy now and -$6 next turn.  Is that really worth it?  My guess is that most of the time the answer will be no.
Obviously there are a lot of weak points with my thought experiment.  Capital is better than this scenario if you don't have another source of +Buy, if you only have $5 the turn you buy it, if you play it on your last turn, if you need to spike large amounts of money quickly for King's Court or something similar, or if you have a way to keep it from being discarded (Mandarin, Counterfeit, Herbalist).  Overall, I think it will be a situational card, and I don't see myself buying it very often.
Logged

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1745
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #106 on: May 09, 2016, 02:29:50 pm »
+1

So, maybe it's just me, but it seems like the Possession/Debt issue could have also been solved by just sticking the rule into the Debt rules (If you receive Debt while being possessed, the debt is transferred to the possessor.) Maybe that is just somehow not an acceptable way to make the ruling, but if it was done that way, Possession wouldn't need errata, and it wouldn't change how all the other tokens have always worked.

Edit:
Of course Donald could have also chosen to only errata Debt tokens and not all tokens, so maybe he just prefers it this way.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 02:32:23 pm by Deadlock39 »
Logged

Burning Skull

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1147
  • Shuffle iT Username: Burning Skull
  • See you in the Outpost
  • Respect: +1828
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #107 on: May 09, 2016, 02:33:08 pm »
+13

That's brutal. Not only you can't buy yourself a loan while being in debt, but you can't even hope for alms.

trivialknot

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 682
  • Respect: +1052
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #108 on: May 09, 2016, 02:33:33 pm »
0

Adventurer, Harvest, Giant, Death Cart, Coppersmith, Counting House are all considered weak, and their most common usage is to spike provinces.

I kind of doubt that any of those cards' most common usage is to spike Provinces. They're mostly eninge payload, except Counting House, and the main usage of that one is to spike Colonies.
Well maybe it depends on the kind of decks you tend to play.  Around here in meatspace we play more money-ish decks, and it always seems like the f.ds people are focused on the megaturn engines.

The interesting thing about both City Quarter and Royal Blacksmith is that debt seems to anti-synergize with their on-play effects.  They both seem like great engine cards, but the debt mechanic reduces the number of engine components you can pick up.  Also, debt lets you buy them early, but you'd really rather not.
Logged

werothegreat

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8158
  • Shuffle iT Username: werothegreat
  • Let me tell you a secret...
  • Respect: +9526
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #109 on: May 09, 2016, 02:39:13 pm »
+3

Time for more Sage jokes!

Sage stops for Capital - someone needs to pay for his research!

Sage skips over City Quarter - he takes the light rail right to his Lab.
Logged
Contrary to popular belief, I do not run the wiki all on my own.  There are plenty of other people who are actively editing.  Go bother them!

Check out this fantasy epic adventure novel I wrote, the Broken Globe!  http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Globe-Tyr-Chronicles-Book-ebook/dp/B00LR1SZAS/

amoffett11

  • Golem
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 189
  • Respect: +260
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #110 on: May 09, 2016, 02:40:58 pm »
+4

If you buy a Debt card and you have no treasure in your deck (and no virtual money or gainers or anything) I guess you've just locked yourself out of the game!  You can't even buy a single copper to start pulling yourself out. 

It seems to me that some people are suggesting that with +10 buys, you could buy 10 debt cards in a single turn, and just worry about the massive debt later (or never, if the game has just ended).  My interpretation of the rule, and I could be missing something, is that I can only buy one debt card if I can't pay it off.  Example:  buy City quarter with 4, I now have 4 debt, I try to buy another oh wait I can't buy anything because I have debt now.  Or are others correct, and I can buy 2 City Quarters with my 2 buys and just amass $16 worth of debt all at once? 

Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7065
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9768
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #111 on: May 09, 2016, 02:43:58 pm »
+4

If you buy a Debt card and you have no treasure in your deck (and no virtual money or gainers or anything) I guess you've just locked yourself out of the game!  You can't even buy a single copper to start pulling yourself out.

Fact!

It seems to me that some people are suggesting that with +10 buys, you could buy 10 debt cards in a single turn, and just worry about the massive debt later (or never, if the game has just ended).  My interpretation of the rule, and I could be missing something, is that I can only buy one debt card if I can't pay it off.  Example:  buy City quarter with 4, I now have 4 debt, I try to buy another oh wait I can't buy anything because I have debt now.  Or are others correct, and I can buy 2 City Quarters with my 2 buys and just amass $16 worth of debt all at once?

Your interpretation is correct. The only way you can buy a ton of Debt cards without paying them off in between is if you're possessing someone and you're accumulating the Debt tokens as they buy cards for you.
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7092
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9366
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #112 on: May 09, 2016, 02:47:29 pm »
+2

It seems to me that some people are suggesting that with +10 buys, you could buy 10 debt cards in a single turn, and just worry about the massive debt later (or never, if the game has just ended).  My interpretation of the rule, and I could be missing something, is that I can only buy one debt card if I can't pay it off.  Example:  buy City quarter with 4, I now have 4 debt, I try to buy another oh wait I can't buy anything because I have debt now.  Or are others correct, and I can buy 2 City Quarters with my 2 buys and just amass $16 worth of debt all at once?

The people talking about using massive +Buy to gain a ton of Debt cards are mostly talking about Possession turns.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

Mic Qsenoch

  • 2015 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1672
  • Respect: +4273
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #113 on: May 09, 2016, 02:48:04 pm »
+1

Capital seems risky.  Here's a thought experiment.  Let's say you buy this over Gold.  (I know I'm comparing it to a $6 card, but Gold is a good comparison point for a lot of $5 cards.)  Compared to Gold, on the turn you play it, this card gives you +$3, +1 Buy now and -$6 next turn.  Is that really worth it?  My guess is that most of the time the answer will be no.
Obviously there are a lot of weak points with my thought experiment.  Capital is better than this scenario if you don't have another source of +Buy, if you only have $5 the turn you buy it, if you play it on your last turn, if you need to spike large amounts of money quickly for King's Court or something similar, or if you have a way to keep it from being discarded (Mandarin, Counterfeit, Herbalist).  Overall, I think it will be a situational card, and I don't see myself buying it very often.

Besides the things you've mentioned, money now is just more valuable than money later. Playing Capital (to buy nice things, or maybe even 2 nice things) or buying a card with Debt will immediately help your deck improve and possibly increase the output of money on the very next turn.
Logged

math

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 307
  • Shuffle iT Username: math
  • Respect: +182
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #114 on: May 09, 2016, 02:52:11 pm »
0

Capital seems risky.  Here's a thought experiment.  Let's say you buy this over Gold.  (I know I'm comparing it to a $6 card, but Gold is a good comparison point for a lot of $5 cards.)  Compared to Gold, on the turn you play it, this card gives you +$3, +1 Buy now and -$6 next turn.  Is that really worth it?  My guess is that most of the time the answer will be no.
Obviously there are a lot of weak points with my thought experiment.  Capital is better than this scenario if you don't have another source of +Buy, if you only have $5 the turn you buy it, if you play it on your last turn, if you need to spike large amounts of money quickly for King's Court or something similar, or if you have a way to keep it from being discarded (Mandarin, Counterfeit, Herbalist).  Overall, I think it will be a situational card, and I don't see myself buying it very often.

Besides the things you've mentioned, money now is just more valuable than money later. Playing Capital (to buy nice things, or maybe even 2 nice things) or buying a card with Debt will immediately help your deck improve and possibly increase the output of money on the very next turn.

I thought about this, and most of the time I just don't think it will be worth it.  How many cards can you buy with an extra $3 that will increase your money by $3 next turn?  That's what it would take for Capital to be worth it.  King's Court seems to qualify, but I can't think of many others.  Obviously that will be board dependent.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5353
  • Respect: +21694
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #115 on: May 09, 2016, 02:55:35 pm »
+8

Speaking of which, Donald, when will the change take effect? Immediately, as soon as MF implements it (few months), 2017...?
It went into effect Friday. I hope you've been playing it correctly.

Also, while I'm Possessing, does my opponent use my token like their own in full (under my direction) or do they spend theirs and whatever they gain goes to me?
Always remember that Possession is the other player taking a turn in which you make the decisions and get the cards and now tokens.

I Possess you, you have debt, that prevents you from buying cards. I could have you pay off debt. I can have you convert your coin tokens to $. It's all you doing stuff that I make the decisions for.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7900
  • Respect: +8716
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #116 on: May 09, 2016, 02:57:00 pm »
0

Guys: be careful with Royal Blacksmith.  If your deck is mostly Coppers, it can end up decreasing your handsize.

I don't think you need to "be careful" with that... Warehouse and Cellar also decrease your handsize, but that's ok because you replace those discarded Coppers with better cards. Granted, you don't want to open Royal Blacksmith and play it on turn 3....

Woah, I didn't even realize until reading another recent post.... this is way worse than I thought. If you open Royal Blacksmith, you instantly lose the game. If you and your opponent both open Royal Blacksmith, you must play on forever until one of you starves to death. Always bring a snack, that's my advice.

*Edit* Never mind, forgot you can pay off $8 with only max $5 in your hand, just takes multiple turns.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:04:06 pm by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

ced

  • Salvager
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
  • Respect: +98
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #117 on: May 09, 2016, 02:58:16 pm »
+3

Debt as a mechanic basically allows more flexibility with your buys. You can buy these for 8 straight up, buy them for 6-7 if you're a couple coins short, buy them for 4 now and 4 the next turn. I think the most important part about when you go into debt is that the card you're adding to your deck is immediately good. You can go into debt on your opening buys, but I don't imagine that's going to be useful a lot of the time, certainly not with the two previewed actions. If you can play your big debt card a turn or two down the line, then its ideally going to finish paying for itself and then some.

City Quarter is a Village with a mix of Crossroads/Scrying Pool style unbounded draw. Unlike Scrying Pool, though, City Quarter is not going to be that good at kickstarting your turn unless you have such incredibly high action density that over half your starting hand is actions. It will be best at drawing the rest of your deck once you're halfway through it. Trashing and sifting are a great aid to avoid it choking on stop cards.

Royal Blacksmith, on the other hand, is very good at kickstarting a turn. If you can't trash your starting coppers, I suspect it will play out a lot like Embassy - but Embassy is a pretty good card and you get to not give your opponent a Silver. With all the actions you draw, you should be able to get back to your discarded coppers again. You could also use sifting again - Warehouse away the coppers you're about to discard anyway.

Capital works with debt a little differently. In a sense, it turns every card on the board into a debt card. Buy Province now, pay for it later in the Tournament game, buy KC now so you can start having megaturns and easily pay off the debt. This seems pretty good, actually. The two debt cost cards previewed don't seem that strong for 8 straight up, so that's where the debt comes in as an advantage. If you have cards competitively costed at 5/6/7, then debt is a huge buff. Then this card costs 5, generates net 0 coins until the final turn, when it generates 6. That's ok too - the extra free cash should help end the game. Edit: oh there's also the Herbalist/Mandarin thing that others have mentioned.

This all makes me wish Prince was a debt card. It's often a pain to hit 8 early enough for Prince to matter, so debt would help you buy it as soon as you think you can line it up with the right action.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:11:57 pm by ced »
Logged

Cuzz

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 552
  • Shuffle iT Username: Cuzz
  • Respect: +902
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #118 on: May 09, 2016, 02:58:47 pm »
0

If you buy a Debt card and you have no treasure in your deck (and no virtual money or gainers or anything) I guess you've just locked yourself out of the game!  You can't even buy a single copper to start pulling yourself out. 

How does this happen? (Not claiming it can't, just curious on the possibilities--maybe Spoils play a role?)

Also, may have been answered before, but paying off debt does NOT use a Buy, correct?
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7065
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9768
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #119 on: May 09, 2016, 02:59:23 pm »
+4

Guys: be careful with Royal Blacksmith.  If your deck is mostly Coppers, it can end up decreasing your handsize.

I don't think you need to "be careful" with that... Warehouse and Cellar also decrease your handsize, but that's ok because you replace those discarded Coppers with better cards. Granted, you don't want to open Royal Blacksmith and play it on turn 3....

Woah, I didn't even realize until reading another recent post.... this is way worse than I thought. If you open Royal Blacksmith, you instantly lose the game. If you and your opponent both open Royal Blacksmith, you must play on forever until one of you starves to death. Always bring a snack, that's my advice.

What? It doesn't trash your Coppers, it just discards them.
Logged

michaeljb

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1395
  • Shuffle iT Username: michaeljb
  • Respect: +2042
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #120 on: May 09, 2016, 02:59:30 pm »
+4

Guys: be careful with Royal Blacksmith.  If your deck is mostly Coppers, it can end up decreasing your handsize.

I don't think you need to "be careful" with that... Warehouse and Cellar also decrease your handsize, but that's ok because you replace those discarded Coppers with better cards. Granted, you don't want to open Royal Blacksmith and play it on turn 3....

Woah, I didn't even realize until reading another recent post.... this is way worse than I thought. If you open Royal Blacksmith, you instantly lose the game. If you and your opponent both open Royal Blacksmith, you must play on forever until one of you starves to death. Always bring a snack, that's my advice.

Well you don't have to play Action cards on your turn.
Logged

Seprix

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5586
  • Respect: +3593
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #121 on: May 09, 2016, 02:59:38 pm »
0

Can't you conceivably also make it so that you're in debt the turn your opponent possesses you, so he can't buy anything at all?
Logged
3/4ths retired

singletee

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 897
  • Shuffle iT Username: singletee
  • Gold, Silver, Copper, Let's Jam!
  • Respect: +1569
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #122 on: May 09, 2016, 03:01:28 pm »
+3

Guys: be careful with Royal Blacksmith.  If your deck is mostly Coppers, it can end up decreasing your handsize.

I don't think you need to "be careful" with that... Warehouse and Cellar also decrease your handsize, but that's ok because you replace those discarded Coppers with better cards. Granted, you don't want to open Royal Blacksmith and play it on turn 3....

Woah, I didn't even realize until reading another recent post.... this is way worse than I thought. If you open Royal Blacksmith, you instantly lose the game. If you and your opponent both open Royal Blacksmith, you must play on forever until one of you starves to death. Always bring a snack, that's my advice.

You aren't self-pinned. You can gradually pay off the debt with your coppers until you are debt-free.

michaeljb

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1395
  • Shuffle iT Username: michaeljb
  • Respect: +2042
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #123 on: May 09, 2016, 03:02:14 pm »
0

Can't you conceivably also make it so that you're in debt the turn your opponent possesses you, so he can't buy anything at all?

Your opponent can choose to make you pay off your debt, then if you made enough money you can buy more cards for him to gain.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7900
  • Respect: +8716
    • View Profile
Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #124 on: May 09, 2016, 03:02:45 pm »
0

Guys: be careful with Royal Blacksmith.  If your deck is mostly Coppers, it can end up decreasing your handsize.

I don't think you need to "be careful" with that... Warehouse and Cellar also decrease your handsize, but that's ok because you replace those discarded Coppers with better cards. Granted, you don't want to open Royal Blacksmith and play it on turn 3....

Woah, I didn't even realize until reading another recent post.... this is way worse than I thought. If you open Royal Blacksmith, you instantly lose the game. If you and your opponent both open Royal Blacksmith, you must play on forever until one of you starves to death. Always bring a snack, that's my advice.

What? It doesn't trash your Coppers, it just discards them.

I was thinking that with only $5 in your hand, you wouldn't be able to ever pay off your deck. But I forgot that of course you can just split the payoff over multiple turns.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:08:14 pm by GendoIkari »
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 16  All
 

Page created in 0.106 seconds with 20 queries.