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Author Topic: Empires Previews #1: Debt  (Read 57527 times)

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Donald X.

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Empires Previews #1: Debt
« on: May 09, 2016, 12:04:33 pm »
+66

You can feel it in the night, like an approaching storm. You hear its distant laughter on the wind; you catch a glimpse of it in the window of a passing train. There's no mistaking it. It's another Dominion expansion. And if you had any doubt remaining, I'm here with some previews for it.

As with last time around, there will be individual previews here each day by different people.

There are too many set themes to have a day with no theme. So the cards the other people preview will include some random stuff, while I will stick with the themes, which I will just get you ready for now: Debt, split piles, VP tokens, Landmarks, Events.

Okay so Debt.



That reddish hexagon means you don't pay for City Quarter or Royal Blacksmith up front. Instead you take some tokens that say how much you owe. While you have the tokens, you can't buy cards or Events. Those are the only things you can't do; you can still play cards, including the one that got you into Debt if you draw that one; you can still trash cards and get attacked and win the game and so on. You can pay off Debt tokens in your Buy phase, before and/or after buying cards, at $1 per token. So, you have $4, you buy City Quarter, you get 8 Debt, you pay off 4 of it immediately, you have 4 debt left. In your next Buy phase, if you had $6, you could pay off the rest of your Debt and then have $2 left to spend. Get it? It's pretty simple. The one tricky thing is how these things work when cards compare costs. There it works like Potion: apples and oranges. A reddish hexagon with an 8 isn't more or less than $3. There's a rulebook, okay? It covers all the tricky things. And uh why a hexagon, why that color? The physical tokens are reddish hexagons.

So City Quarter is one of these things, it costs $8 but you don't need any $ up front. You can buy it with $0 and a leftover Buy. But you'll be paying it off before you buy more things and well I went over that already. So uh City Quarter. It looks snazzy. You could draw so many cards. And it's a Village too, which helps you play those cards you had to have to draw those other cards.

Royal Blacksmith also costs 8 Debt and draws a lot of cards. It doesn't let you keep the Coppers and well you may want to do something about that. I like to show off at least a few simple cards, and Royal Blacksmith and City Quarter are both pretty simple, other than wondering about that red hexagon.

Most cards and Events that use Debt use it in a cost. Capital is one that does something different. It's a Treasure that loans you $6. It's a nice hunk of change, but you have to pay it all back. At least there's no interest. And hey maybe you aren't getting another turn anyway.

So there you have it, Debt. And there's another preview today and then I'll have split piles tomorrow.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2016, 12:09:17 pm »
+1

Good morning Donald!
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Davio

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2016, 12:11:08 pm »
0

Reserved for insightful edit.  ;D

Well this opens a lot of strategic avenues and that's great,  especially if you focus on gaining rather than buying.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 12:16:49 pm by Davio »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2016, 12:12:21 pm »
0

Can you buy a debt card, pay of the debt, and then buy another debt card?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2016, 12:14:37 pm »
+1

Can you buy a debt card, pay of the debt, and then buy another debt card?

Yes, assuming you have 2 Buys.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2016, 12:15:03 pm »
+8

I feel, I'm indebted to Donald for this preview!
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2016, 12:15:27 pm »
+3

Good morning Donald!
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2016, 12:17:09 pm »
+2

In the middle of updating the wiki, hang on to your pants, people.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2016, 12:17:17 pm »
+1

The one tricky thing is how these things work when cards compare costs. There it works like Potion: apples and oranges. A reddish hexagon with an 8 isn't more or less than $3.

Prediction: The red hexagons are gunpowders

Close enough. They even disappear once you've "used" them.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2016, 12:20:09 pm »
+3

I love the idea of taking multiple turns to buy a card. I hope there is an event which allows you to turn another pile into a debt pile.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2016, 12:22:00 pm »
+11

Oh, Capital + Herbalist!
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2016, 12:23:31 pm »
0

Interesting as always. So we've already seen a quarter of all the red hexagons, hmm... -VP was the first penalty that came to my mind for guessing how debt would work. Not being able to buy things is certainly a good incentive, though.

And Events are the grand finale, not Landmarks? Must be some pretty cool Events. Exciting!
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2016, 12:24:20 pm »
0

One question, May I pay my debt when I want (after playing few market for example and just before playing a storryteller) ?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2016, 12:25:12 pm »
+1

These would be great Disciple targets.   ;D
Also Jester but not Haggler,  so many interesting interactions.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2016, 12:26:41 pm »
+10

Oh, Capital + Herbalist!
You mean Counterfeit.

No discard = free $12.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2016, 12:27:00 pm »
+1

One question, May I pay my debt when I want (after playing few market for example and just before playing a storryteller) ?

You can pay off Debt tokens in your Buy phase, before and/or after buying cards, at $1 per token.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2016, 12:27:52 pm »
0

This is so cool! I'm excited for the community trying to figure out how to best use these. One thing I'm bummed about is that I had a fan card idea pretty similar to Royal Blacksmith. It's different enough, I guess I could still use it. Combo with Counting House!
I really feel like I'm going to waver back and forth on how cautious to be with the debt cards.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2016, 12:29:12 pm »
+3

Oh, Capital + Herbalist!
You mean Counterfeit.

No discard = free $12.

No, I think he means Herbalist. No discard = free $6 every turn. I'm not sure if that actually works though.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2016, 12:30:03 pm »
+18

Buying debt cards while possessing someoen sounds pretty good.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2016, 12:32:01 pm »
+1

Buying debt cards while possessing someoen sounds pretty good.

Especially before he gets his own possession.


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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2016, 12:33:26 pm »
+1

I always thought there would be a Capitol card - some kind of really powerful village. I guess Capital makes that unlikely.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2016, 12:33:30 pm »
+1

"Warning - while you were reading 5 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post."

Must be a preview thread...

Anyway, so you can trash one of these cards with Apprentice and draw 0 cards.

I'm curious if we'll see any cards that cost both debt and coin. Probably not. But it does seem that you can remodel a City Quarter into a Royal Blacksmith, and vice-versa, because " + 8 debt" is up to more than " + 8 debt." And when you do gain a Royal Blacksmith like this, you wouldn't take any debt tokens. Right?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2016, 12:35:03 pm »
+1

One question, May I pay my debt when I want (after playing few market for example and just before playing a storryteller) ?

You can pay off Debt tokens in your Buy phase, before and/or after buying cards, at $1 per token.

This is why Capital's last clause is needed; it allows paying off Debt during cleanup.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2016, 12:35:47 pm »
+1

All of this debt seems really expensive to me. I wouldn't value being able to pay later and not buying anything till then so highly intuitively.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2016, 12:36:05 pm »
+1

Buying debt cards while possessing someoen sounds pretty good.

Also playing a bunch of Royal Blacksmiths and then triggering a shuffle.

Also I love this art!

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2016, 12:36:12 pm »
+30

Buying debt cards while possessing someoen sounds pretty good.
Oh right. I forgot to mention it, but Possession is getting errata. No joke, errata. It will now cause the possessing player to also get all tokens the other player would have gotten. This means they will also get VP tokens, which wasn't the point, but was the simplest way to make debt + Possession not suck.
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Donald X.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2016, 12:38:46 pm »
+4

But it does seem that you can remodel a City Quarter into a Royal Blacksmith, and vice-versa, because " + 8 debt" is up to more than " + 8 debt." And when you do gain a Royal Blacksmith like this, you wouldn't take any debt tokens. Right?
Yes, you can Remodel a City Quarter into a Royal Blacksmith, and you don't get any Debt for doing that.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2016, 12:39:23 pm »
+3

Oh, Capital + Herbalist!
You mean Counterfeit.

No discard = free $12.

No, I think he means Herbalist. No discard = free $6 every turn. I'm not sure if that actually works though.

Seems clear it would work...
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2016, 12:39:36 pm »
0

What is the expansion symbol supposed to be?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2016, 12:41:07 pm »
+1

Buying debt cards while possessing someoen sounds pretty good.
Oh right. I forgot to mention it, but Possession is getting errata. No joke, errata. It will now cause the possessing player to also get all tokens the other player would have gotten. This means they will also get VP tokens, which wasn't the point, but was the simplest way to make debt + Possession not suck.

Woah. I assume that this is just something that will be mentioned in the Empire rulebook? And maybe future printings of Alchemy rulebooks?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2016, 12:41:14 pm »
0

What exactly is the new version of Possession?
Do you still need to pay off the debt of the possessed player before buying anything? Does anything about adventures tokens change?

I think it was kinda cool that there where no errata. :(
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2016, 12:42:03 pm »
0

Calling a Debt cost VP card.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2016, 12:42:23 pm »
+2

What is the expansion symbol supposed to be?

A laurel.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2016, 12:44:21 pm »
+10

I always thought there would be a Capitol card - some kind of really powerful village. I guess Capital makes that unlikely.

I for one wouldn't mint if there was also a Capitol card.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2016, 12:44:43 pm »
0

Calling a Debt cost VP card.

Debt cost VP card would be  broken assuming you don't need to pay  off the debt of the player you possess. You'd just need enough buys and  could buy them all.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2016, 12:46:10 pm »
0

I just don't understand why there is a bottomless pit in the middle of the city quarter.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2016, 12:46:50 pm »
+1

I just don't understand why there is a bottomless pit in the middle of the city quarter.

I think It's a roof
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2016, 12:47:45 pm »
0

Calling a Debt cost VP card.

Debt cost VP card would be  broken assuming you don't need to pay off the debt of the player you possess. You'd just need enough buys and  could buy them all.

"While you have the tokens, you can't buy cards or Events."
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2016, 12:47:48 pm »
0

I now want there to be a way to save up unused money from previous turns to pre-pay debt.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2016, 12:47:55 pm »
0

One question, May I pay my debt when I want (after playing few market for example and just before playing a storryteller) ?

You can pay off Debt tokens in your Buy phase, before and/or after buying cards, at $1 per token.

This is why Capital's last clause is needed; it allows paying off Debt during cleanup.

Because of that clause, I suspect that there will be some card that cares directly about how much debt you have or whether you have debt. Maybe something that multiplies opponents' debt. Otherwise paying off debt early would be unnecessary, since the next time you could buy a card, you could just pay off the debt then.

(Except Black Market, but that's hardly a reason for that whole line of text.)

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2016, 12:49:14 pm »
+12

I found one of the VP symbols: it's in the City Quarter art. 59 to go.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2016, 12:50:41 pm »
+2


Because of that clause, I suspect that there will be some card that cares directly about how much debt you have or whether you have debt. Maybe something that multiplies opponents' debt. Otherwise paying off debt early would be unnecessary, since the next time you could buy a card, you could just pay off the debt then.

Well, if yu don't pay it off right then, the money will be gone.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2016, 12:51:43 pm »
0

Woah. I assume that this is just something that will be mentioned in the Empire rulebook? And maybe future printings of Alchemy rulebooks?
It's in the Empires rulebook, and yes someday I hope to have it on new printings of Possession and in that rulebook.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2016, 12:52:33 pm »
+3

Calling a Debt cost VP card.

Debt cost VP card would be  broken assuming you don't need to pay off the debt of the player you possess. You'd just need enough buys and  could buy them all.

"While you have the tokens, you can't buy cards or Events."

Right, but when you're possessing someone and buy a debt card, you get the debt. So you could possess someone, get 10 buys, buy 10 Royal Blacksmiths, and build up 80 debt for yourself.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2016, 12:52:55 pm »
+2

All of this debt seems really expensive to me. I wouldn't value being able to pay later and not buying anything till then so highly intuitively.

I like to think of it this way:  We often say that one good turn is better than two mediocre turns in Dominion.  With a debt-cost card, you can buy a powerful card on two mediocre turns instead of waiting until one good turn to get it.  And if you're playing with Capital, you can use it to spike pretty much whatever you want.  To get a really good card early, I'd gladly take a not-so-good turn next time.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2016, 12:54:49 pm »
0

Oh, Capital + Herbalist!
You mean Counterfeit.

No discard = free $12.

No, I think he means Herbalist. No discard = free $6 every turn. I'm not sure if that actually works though.

Seems clear it would work...

Right, I always forget that Herbalist isn't Scheme.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2016, 12:54:56 pm »
+3

What exactly is the new version of Possession?
Do you still need to pay off the debt of the possessed player before buying anything? Does anything about adventures tokens change?

I think it was kinda cool that there where no errata. :(
Dude. Possession. It was bound to happen eventually. In some sense a few cards already have errata - Black Market (you can play Treasures), Pirate Ship (it doesn't mean Guilds tokens), Envoy (it's not drawing).

Nothing about the Adventures tokens changes. If I Possess you and have you buy a City Quarter, I get the Debt. If I have you play a Monument, I get the VP.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2016, 12:55:52 pm »
0

Calling a Debt cost VP card.

Debt cost VP card would be  broken assuming you don't need to pay  off the debt of the player you possess. You'd just need enough buys and  could buy them all.

I guess you're right. Maybe it's $2 [4] for 3 VP then or something like that. But that's not incredibly unique. I feel like it would have to also do something extra.

I also love that Possession is getting a nerf. It's not the best card in the world to begin with, but now it's even not as good. :)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2016, 12:56:33 pm »
+2

I think it was kinda cool that there where no errata. :(

Dominion has, for several years, had errata in all but name. This just marks the first time the word has been used (and put in a physical printed product, I assume?).

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2016, 12:57:56 pm »
0

Guys: be careful with Royal Blacksmith.  If your deck is mostly Coppers, it can end up decreasing your handsize.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2016, 12:58:28 pm »
+1

All of this debt seems really expensive to me. I wouldn't value being able to pay later and not buying anything till then so highly intuitively.

I was debt-averse when I was first introduced to the mechanic, but it's usually not something you can ignore.  Being able to get a strong card early on can give you a considerable advantage in pacing.  Capital is potent because it effectively lets you use debt to buy cards that weren't priced with debt.  Consider the effect of using Capital to spike a KC, Prince, Platinum...
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2016, 12:59:31 pm »
+3

I now want there to be a way to save up unused money from previous turns to pre-pay debt.
That's called coin tokens... right?

I assume you can use coin tokens to play off debt. It's a bit like a matter-antimatter annihilation.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2016, 12:59:37 pm »
+7

Donald. There is no Emperor card. There is no Darth Vader card. I am most displeased. The Emperor is even more displeased, because he is of course, not as forgiving as I am.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2016, 01:00:23 pm »
0

What exactly is the new version of Possession?
Do you still need to pay off the debt of the possessed player before buying anything? Does anything about adventures tokens change?

I think it was kinda cool that there where no errata. :(
Dude. Possession. It was bound to happen eventually. In some sense a few cards already have errata - Black Market (you can play Treasures), Pirate Ship (it doesn't mean Guilds tokens), Envoy (it's not drawing).

Nothing about the Adventures tokens changes. If I Possess you and have you buy a City Quarter, I get the Debt. If I have you play a Monument, I get the VP.

So, I assume Debt, VP and Coin Tokens work this way, then. What about Pirate Ship tokens?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2016, 01:01:19 pm »
+7

Calling a Debt cost VP card.

Debt cost VP card would be  broken assuming you don't need to pay  off the debt of the player you possess. You'd just need enough buys and  could buy them all.

I guess you're right. Maybe it's $2 [4] for 3 VP then or something like that. But that's not incredibly unique. I feel like it would have to also do something extra.

I also love that Possession is getting a nerf. It's not the best card in the world to begin with, but now it's even not as good. :)

I'd call it a buff. Getting your opponent's VP tokens is pretty big.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2016, 01:02:20 pm »
0

Calling a Debt cost VP card.

Debt cost VP card would be  broken assuming you don't need to pay off the debt of the player you possess. You'd just need enough buys and  could buy them all.

"While you have the tokens, you can't buy cards or Events."

Right, but when you're possessing someone and buy a debt card, you get the debt. So you could possess someone, get 10 buys, buy 10 Royal Blacksmiths, and build up 80 debt for yourself.
That's what I meant.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2016, 01:03:17 pm »
0

Buying debt cards while possessing someoen sounds pretty good.
Oh right. I forgot to mention it, but Possession is getting errata. No joke, errata. It will now cause the possessing player to also get all tokens the other player would have gotten. This means they will also get VP tokens, which wasn't the point, but was the simplest way to make debt + Possession not suck.
I was going to say that debt+Possession sounded broken unless that was the rule.

Now, it sounds like accumulating some debt is a new way to discourage someone from playing Possession on you. Er... oh... wait - whose debt matters for determing whether or not the Possessed player can buy something, and whose debt does the Possessed player pay off?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2016, 01:04:09 pm »
+2

Donald. There is no Emperor card.

How do you know?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2016, 01:04:18 pm »
+1

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2016, 01:08:49 pm »
0

Buying debt cards while possessing someoen sounds pretty good.
Oh right. I forgot to mention it, but Possession is getting errata. No joke, errata. It will now cause the possessing player to also get all tokens the other player would have gotten. This means they will also get VP tokens, which wasn't the point, but was the simplest way to make debt + Possession not suck.


Possessor getting the VP or Possessee getting the debt????

I'd go for the latter.  At least in that case it encourages both players to build their decks.  And the Possessor would be forced to pay off debt if possessing multiple turns in a row.  VP tokens going to the Possessor takes away from one very appealing counter to Possession.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2016, 01:09:01 pm »
0

I also love that Possession is getting a nerf. It's not the best card in the world to begin with, but now it's even not as good. :)

It's getting a buff. Previously, you could counter Possession by going for Goons and Bishop and Monument, but now if you do that, your opponent will get the tokens instead when he possesses you.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2016, 01:10:38 pm »
+3

Donald. There is no Emperor card.

How do you know?

I don't know if I've said this before, but having a King/Queen/Emperor card just seems wrong, because the player is supposed to be those things. I think MTG has a thing where you can play cards that are like players, but I don't think Dominion should.

Another thing, I like that you can open with both City Quarter and Royal Blacksmith, but you don't want to.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2016, 01:12:39 pm »
0

Another thing, I like that you can open with both City Quarter and Royal Blacksmith, but you don't want to.

I believe you mean either of them.  If you buy one on your first turn, you'll have too much debt on your second turn to buy anything.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2016, 01:15:42 pm »
+2

What exactly is the new version of Possession?
Do you still need to pay off the debt of the possessed player before buying anything? Does anything about adventures tokens change?

I think it was kinda cool that there where no errata. :(
Dude. Possession. It was bound to happen eventually. In some sense a few cards already have errata - Black Market (you can play Treasures), Pirate Ship (it doesn't mean Guilds tokens), Envoy (it's not drawing).

Nothing about the Adventures tokens changes.
Alas Possession is one card that the group that I play with has vetoed.  Two of the group had always disliked it, but the final straw was the Borrow event in Adventures: playing with a 4-card hand every time after one was possessed didn't amuse them at all.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2016, 01:15:51 pm »
0

So, I assume Debt, VP and Coin Tokens work this way, then. What about Pirate Ship tokens?
Yes, you also get those tokens.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2016, 01:16:36 pm »
+1

Another thing, I like that you can open with both City Quarter and Royal Blacksmith, but you don't want to.

I believe you mean either of them.  If you buy one on your first turn, you'll have too much debt on your second turn to buy anything.

Yes, I meant either. Language is hard when all you can think about is Dominion: Empires.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2016, 01:17:16 pm »
0

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2016, 01:18:24 pm »
+6

So, I assume Debt, VP and Coin Tokens work this way, then. What about Pirate Ship tokens?
Yes, you also get those tokens.

So I can use their Pirate Ships to thin my deck and mine as payload? Miser is so 2015, guys.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2016, 01:20:41 pm »
+12

Nobody is asking the important questions yet.

How are we going to include these in the Qvist community card rankings?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2016, 01:21:31 pm »
0

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.

Here's a topic for speculation: how many debt cards do we think Empires has? It has 16 red hexagons, and we've seen 4 already. I'm thinking somewhere around 8 cards/events/maybe landmarks.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2016, 01:23:11 pm »
+3

EDIT:  Dear goodness.... 30 replies while writing this post.  Haven't read them yet, brute Bruce forcing myself in.

FYP
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2016, 01:23:52 pm »
0

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.

Here's a topic for speculation: how many debt cards do we think Empires has? It has 16 red hexagons, and we've seen 4 already. I'm thinking somewhere around 8 cards/events/maybe landmarks.

I'm assuming you can write your own debt "in credit" (funny enough) for bigger games with more players. I'm going to say that there is probably 7 Debt cards.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2016, 01:24:14 pm »
0

EDIT:  Dear goodness.... 30 replies while writing this post.  Haven't read them yet, brute Bruce forcing myself in.

FYP FTFY

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2016, 01:27:34 pm »
+2

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2016, 01:28:05 pm »
0

Nobody is asking the important questions yet.

How are we going to include these in the Qvist community card rankings?

I guess we rank them as $6+

Hmm...


Anyway, ugh, Possession is already a messed up card. And, now the VP thing. Well, I guess you should never buy Bishop if Possession is on the board. Banning the card might not be such a bad idea.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2016, 01:29:25 pm »
0

And, wow, Royal Blacksmith seems strong, especially after you've started trashing down.

I've already seen the other two cards. Capital interests me the most, but if you're deck is not very action-dense, it's not as good as it seems at first glance.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2016, 01:29:32 pm »
0

Nobody is asking the important questions yet.

How are we going to include these in the Qvist community card rankings?

Easy. Just as there are separate rankings for the Ruins, and there are separate rankings for Potion cards, there will be separate rankings for Debt cards.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #77 on: May 09, 2016, 01:29:49 pm »
0

I'm going to say that there is probably 7 Debt cards.
Not to mention debt Events.

Also, are the debt tokens cardboard chits, or part of the 96 metal tokens?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #78 on: May 09, 2016, 01:30:03 pm »
0

Anyway, ugh, Possession is already a messed up card. And, now the VP thing. Well, I guess you should never buy Bishop if Possession is on the board. Banning the card might not be such a bad idea.

Buying trash-for-benefit was always a pretty bad idea with Possession.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #79 on: May 09, 2016, 01:32:20 pm »
+10

Not to be the one coming with negative comments in such a jolly occasion, but I really wish the artists could find something a bit more original than "Still Life with Coins on Table #6" for Treasure cards.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #80 on: May 09, 2016, 01:34:29 pm »
+1

Calling a Debt cost VP card.

Debt cost VP card would be  broken assuming you don't need to pay  off the debt of the player you possess. You'd just need enough buys and  could buy them all.

I guess you're right. Maybe it's $2 [4] for 3 VP then or something like that. But that's not incredibly unique. I feel like it would have to also do something extra.

I also love that Possession is getting a nerf. It's not the best card in the world to begin with, but now it's even not as good. :)

Um, this is a buff, not a nerf. Previously, Possession couldn't steal a person's VP when Monument, etc was played on the possessed turn. Now it can.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #81 on: May 09, 2016, 01:35:30 pm »
0

Guys: be careful with Royal Blacksmith.  If your deck is mostly Coppers, it can end up decreasing your handsize.

I don't think you need to "be careful" with that... Warehouse and Cellar also decrease your handsize, but that's ok because you replace those discarded Coppers with better cards. Granted, you don't want to open Royal Blacksmith and play it on turn 3....
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #82 on: May 09, 2016, 01:37:13 pm »
0

Calling a Debt cost VP card.

Debt cost VP card would be  broken assuming you don't need to pay  off the debt of the player you possess. You'd just need enough buys and  could buy them all.

I guess you're right. Maybe it's $2 [4] for 3 VP then or something like that. But that's not incredibly unique. I feel like it would have to also do something extra.

I also love that Possession is getting a nerf. It's not the best card in the world to begin with, but now it's even not as good. :)

Um, this is a buff, not a nerf. Previously, Possession couldn't steal a person's VP when Monument, etc was played on the possessed turn. Now it can.

I read the post wrong. The possessed and the possessor previously were the possessor and the possessed, but now they are the possessed and the possessor. Reading all of that dialogue is complicated.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #83 on: May 09, 2016, 01:40:10 pm »
+2

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.

I don't think you can call it a nerf when it never existed that you could use Possession + Debt that way (except maybe in early playtesting). It's only a nerf versus a theoretical interaction that doesn't and never has existed. That's like saying that Smithy being +3 cards is a nerf vs if Smithy were +4 cards.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #84 on: May 09, 2016, 01:40:40 pm »
0

Calling a Debt cost VP card.

Debt cost VP card would be  broken assuming you don't need to pay  off the debt of the player you possess. You'd just need enough buys and  could buy them all.

I guess you're right. Maybe it's $2 [4] for 3 VP then or something like that. But that's not incredibly unique. I feel like it would have to also do something extra.

I also love that Possession is getting a nerf. It's not the best card in the world to begin with, but now it's even not as good. :)

Um, this is a buff, not a nerf. Previously, Possession couldn't steal a person's VP when Monument, etc was played on the possessed turn. Now it can.

I read the post wrong. The possessed and the possessor previously were the possessor and the possessed, but now they are the possessed and the possessor. Reading all of that dialogue is complicated.

Yeah, I also got confused earlier in the thread. Debt cards are clearly too wonky, they mess up Possession.  :P ::)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #85 on: May 09, 2016, 01:43:05 pm »
0

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.

I don't think you can call it a nerf when it never existed that you could use Possession + Debt that way (except maybe in early playtesting). It's only a nerf versus a theoretical interaction that doesn't and never has existed. That's like saying that Smithy being +3 cards is a nerf vs if Smithy were +4 cards.

Possession-in-a-vacuum got more powerful, but the card mix may get, relatively speaking, many more hard-ish counters than what it had before. (vp tokens and forced Action players)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #86 on: May 09, 2016, 01:44:58 pm »
0

So, I assume Debt, VP and Coin Tokens work this way, then. What about Pirate Ship tokens?
Yes, you also get those tokens.

I assume the gained Coin tokens go to the Possessor's pool immediately. This means Possessor can't use Coin tokens from Bakers played that turn; he/she can still use the Coin tokens the Possessed has accumulated up until the previous turn. Is this correct?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #87 on: May 09, 2016, 01:45:46 pm »
+1

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.

I don't think you can call it a nerf when it never existed that you could use Possession + Debt that way (except maybe in early playtesting). It's only a nerf versus a theoretical interaction that doesn't and never has existed. That's like saying that Smithy being +3 cards is a nerf vs if Smithy were +4 cards.

No, but the way Debt interacts with Possession is a counter to Possession. Buying a debt card before my opponent possesses me looks pretty strong.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #88 on: May 09, 2016, 01:47:20 pm »
+8

Not to be the one coming with negative comments in such a jolly occasion, but I really wish the artists could find something a bit more original than "Still Life with Coins on Table #6" for Treasure cards.

Donald specifically asks for "no people" on notes to artists for Treasure cards. Personally I really like Loan et al., but he prefers just seeing whatever the Treasure object is.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #89 on: May 09, 2016, 01:47:41 pm »
+1

So I can use their Pirate Ships to thin my deck and mine as payload? Miser is so 2015, guys.

I don't think you want to use Mine as a payload very often if you're using their Pirate Ships to thin your deck.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #90 on: May 09, 2016, 01:49:41 pm »
0

Admittedly, there are plenty of ways to get to $14 on a turn, but do you think it could be possible that we will get a new treasure that gives you $6 or 7$ similar to Platinum coming out with Colonies?

Well, I was thinking of the possibility of a new basic treasure card that would give more money than Platinum, but at least I was right about having a treasure that gives you $6. I wouldn't be surprised to see another card that gives $6. After all, this is Empires. We've gone from Properity to Extravagance, and of course, with Extravagance comes Debt.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #91 on: May 09, 2016, 01:50:23 pm »
0

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.

I don't think you can call it a nerf when it never existed that you could use Possession + Debt that way (except maybe in early playtesting). It's only a nerf versus a theoretical interaction that doesn't and never has existed. That's like saying that Smithy being +3 cards is a nerf vs if Smithy were +4 cards.

No, but the way Debt interacts with Possession is a counter to Possession. Buying a debt card before my opponent possesses me looks pretty strong.

But buying Debt cards while you Possess somebody is even stronger. In both cases the possessee is left deep in debt, but in the second case the possessor gained a card.
The net result would be very heavily pro-possession. (it's essentially a coin-production pin)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #92 on: May 09, 2016, 01:51:22 pm »
+10

Not to be the one coming with negative comments in such a jolly occasion, but I really wish the artists could find something a bit more original than "Still Life with Coins on Table #6" for Treasure cards.

Like this?

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #93 on: May 09, 2016, 01:53:04 pm »
+3

Is it my imagination (I'm no Dominion guru) or might Mandarin+Capital be a candidate for the combo which gives the largest possible advantage to players that get a 5/2 split?

Buy Mandarin, topdeck $5. Buy Capital. Then, when the Capital comes around again, every turn buy Mandarin + as many Capital as you can afford until all the Capital is gone. At that point, buy Mandarins and Duchies to pile out quickly.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #94 on: May 09, 2016, 01:54:00 pm »
+8

Not to be the one coming with negative comments in such a jolly occasion, but I really wish the artists could find something a bit more original than "Still Life with Coins on Table #6" for Treasure cards.

Like this?



I love coins on tables. More please.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #95 on: May 09, 2016, 01:54:56 pm »
0

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.

I don't think you can call it a nerf when it never existed that you could use Possession + Debt that way (except maybe in early playtesting). It's only a nerf versus a theoretical interaction that doesn't and never has existed. That's like saying that Smithy being +3 cards is a nerf vs if Smithy were +4 cards.

No, but the way Debt interacts with Possession is a counter to Possession. Buying a debt card before my opponent possesses me looks pretty strong.

But buying Debt cards while you Possess somebody is even stronger. In both cases the possessee is left deep in debt, but in the second case the possessor gained a card.
The net result would be very heavily pro-possession. (it's essentially a coin-production pin)

I think you missed Donalds post on Page 2. If you buy a card on a Possession turn, you get the debt.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #96 on: May 09, 2016, 02:00:39 pm »
0

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.

I don't think you can call it a nerf when it never existed that you could use Possession + Debt that way (except maybe in early playtesting). It's only a nerf versus a theoretical interaction that doesn't and never has existed. That's like saying that Smithy being +3 cards is a nerf vs if Smithy were +4 cards.

No, but the way Debt interacts with Possession is a counter to Possession. Buying a debt card before my opponent possesses me looks pretty strong.

But buying Debt cards while you Possess somebody is even stronger. In both cases the possessee is left deep in debt, but in the second case the possessor gained a card.
The net result would be very heavily pro-possession. (it's essentially a coin-production pin)

I think you missed Donalds post on Page 2. If you buy a card on a Possession turn, you get the debt.

I thought you were still talking to Possession-as-is rather than Possession-as-it-will-be. They should get different names or something.

Speaking of which, Donald, when will the change take effect? Immediately, as soon as MF implements it (few months), 2017...?

Also, while I'm Possessing, does my opponent use my token like their own in full (under my direction) or do they spend theirs and whatever they gain goes to me?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #97 on: May 09, 2016, 02:06:37 pm »
0


I thought you were still talking to Possession-as-is rather than Possession-as-it-will-be. They should get different names or something.

Speaking of which, Donald, when will the change take effect? Immediately, as soon as MF implements it (few months), 2017...?

Also, while I'm Possessing, does my opponent use my token like their own in full (under my direction) or do they spend theirs and whatever they gain goes to me?

I'm pretty sure everything stays the same, except that the VP/Coin tokens go to the other play. So you can use their token, but can't generat new ones with Baker for them, as you'll receive them instead.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #98 on: May 09, 2016, 02:07:40 pm »
+2

I wonder if there will be online only headaches in there to implement just to make it harder for Stef and Philip. >:(
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #99 on: May 09, 2016, 02:11:10 pm »
+2

Speaking of which, Donald, when will the change take effect? Immediately, as soon as MF implements it (few months), 2017...?

What is the purpose of this question? I mean, if you want to use the new rules for Possession IRL, go ahead and do it. I doubt Donald will come out and say "Don't you dare use the errata IRL before MF implemented them!"

And "as soon as MF implements it" probably equals never.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #100 on: May 09, 2016, 02:14:41 pm »
+7

City Quarter: When revealing a hand of all Rats isn't so bad.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #101 on: May 09, 2016, 02:14:54 pm »
0

Speaking of which, Donald, when will the change take effect? Immediately, as soon as MF implements it (few months), 2017...?

What is the purpose of this question? I mean, if you want to use the new rules for Possession IRL, go ahead and do it. I doubt Donald will come out and say "Don't you dare use the errata IRL before MF implemented them!"

And "as soon as MF implements it" probably equals never.

I was thinking specifically about online, but I guess 2017 is the only answer that makes sense, you're right.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #102 on: May 09, 2016, 02:15:40 pm »
0

Strategy speculation: With debt, high payoff cards become better.  Adventurer, Harvest, Giant, Death Cart, Coppersmith, Counting House are all considered weak, and their most common usage is to spike provinces.  But now you can also use them to pay off debt.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #103 on: May 09, 2016, 02:17:17 pm »
+28

Speaking of which, Donald, when will the change take effect? Immediately, as soon as MF implements it (few months), 2017...?

What is the purpose of this question? I mean, if you want to use the new rules for Possession IRL, go ahead and do it. I doubt Donald will come out and say "Don't you dare use the errata IRL before MF implemented them!"

And "as soon as MF implements it" probably equals never.

I'm in the middle of a game IRL this very moment. My opponent just finished his KC-Possession turn where he couldn't do much with my extra turns because I just had a bunch of Monuments. Now I'm playing my KC-Possession megaturn and am going to play all of HIS monuments and take all the VP tokens for myself, because this rule change took place after his turn but before mine.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #104 on: May 09, 2016, 02:19:18 pm »
0

Adventurer, Harvest, Giant, Death Cart, Coppersmith, Counting House are all considered weak, and their most common usage is to spike provinces.

I kind of doubt that any of those cards' most common usage is to spike Provinces. They're mostly eninge payload, except Counting House, and the main usage of that one is to spike Colonies.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #105 on: May 09, 2016, 02:29:24 pm »
0

First impressions of the cards themselves:

Royal Blacksmith looks like it will be really strong in any deck that has a way to trash Treasures (Mine might actually be worth it here, if there's nothing else).  It is expensive, but the debt makes it a bit easier to buy, and the strength looks better than Hunting Grounds.  Another thing to note is that if you play two, you've already discarded some Coppers, so the downside isn't as bad the second time.

City Quarter looks good, but it will need the right deck.  If you are playing this without at least 2 other action cards in hand, you probably bought it too early.  It works extremely well with start-of-turn draw effects (Wharf, Caravan, Haunted Woods, Prince, Dungeon).  Other non-terminal draw cards can help out as well if your deck is at least 50% actions.  If you can draw enough actions in your starting hand, this card can stack explosively, similar to Madman or Crossroads. 

Capital seems risky.  Here's a thought experiment.  Let's say you buy this over Gold.  (I know I'm comparing it to a $6 card, but Gold is a good comparison point for a lot of $5 cards.)  Compared to Gold, on the turn you play it, this card gives you +$3, +1 Buy now and -$6 next turn.  Is that really worth it?  My guess is that most of the time the answer will be no.
Obviously there are a lot of weak points with my thought experiment.  Capital is better than this scenario if you don't have another source of +Buy, if you only have $5 the turn you buy it, if you play it on your last turn, if you need to spike large amounts of money quickly for King's Court or something similar, or if you have a way to keep it from being discarded (Mandarin, Counterfeit, Herbalist).  Overall, I think it will be a situational card, and I don't see myself buying it very often.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #106 on: May 09, 2016, 02:29:50 pm »
+1

So, maybe it's just me, but it seems like the Possession/Debt issue could have also been solved by just sticking the rule into the Debt rules (If you receive Debt while being possessed, the debt is transferred to the possessor.) Maybe that is just somehow not an acceptable way to make the ruling, but if it was done that way, Possession wouldn't need errata, and it wouldn't change how all the other tokens have always worked.

Edit:
Of course Donald could have also chosen to only errata Debt tokens and not all tokens, so maybe he just prefers it this way.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 02:32:23 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #107 on: May 09, 2016, 02:33:08 pm »
+13

That's brutal. Not only you can't buy yourself a loan while being in debt, but you can't even hope for alms.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #108 on: May 09, 2016, 02:33:33 pm »
0

Adventurer, Harvest, Giant, Death Cart, Coppersmith, Counting House are all considered weak, and their most common usage is to spike provinces.

I kind of doubt that any of those cards' most common usage is to spike Provinces. They're mostly eninge payload, except Counting House, and the main usage of that one is to spike Colonies.
Well maybe it depends on the kind of decks you tend to play.  Around here in meatspace we play more money-ish decks, and it always seems like the f.ds people are focused on the megaturn engines.

The interesting thing about both City Quarter and Royal Blacksmith is that debt seems to anti-synergize with their on-play effects.  They both seem like great engine cards, but the debt mechanic reduces the number of engine components you can pick up.  Also, debt lets you buy them early, but you'd really rather not.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #109 on: May 09, 2016, 02:39:13 pm »
+3

Time for more Sage jokes!

Sage stops for Capital - someone needs to pay for his research!

Sage skips over City Quarter - he takes the light rail right to his Lab.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #110 on: May 09, 2016, 02:40:58 pm »
+4

If you buy a Debt card and you have no treasure in your deck (and no virtual money or gainers or anything) I guess you've just locked yourself out of the game!  You can't even buy a single copper to start pulling yourself out. 

It seems to me that some people are suggesting that with +10 buys, you could buy 10 debt cards in a single turn, and just worry about the massive debt later (or never, if the game has just ended).  My interpretation of the rule, and I could be missing something, is that I can only buy one debt card if I can't pay it off.  Example:  buy City quarter with 4, I now have 4 debt, I try to buy another oh wait I can't buy anything because I have debt now.  Or are others correct, and I can buy 2 City Quarters with my 2 buys and just amass $16 worth of debt all at once? 

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #111 on: May 09, 2016, 02:43:58 pm »
+4

If you buy a Debt card and you have no treasure in your deck (and no virtual money or gainers or anything) I guess you've just locked yourself out of the game!  You can't even buy a single copper to start pulling yourself out.

Fact!

It seems to me that some people are suggesting that with +10 buys, you could buy 10 debt cards in a single turn, and just worry about the massive debt later (or never, if the game has just ended).  My interpretation of the rule, and I could be missing something, is that I can only buy one debt card if I can't pay it off.  Example:  buy City quarter with 4, I now have 4 debt, I try to buy another oh wait I can't buy anything because I have debt now.  Or are others correct, and I can buy 2 City Quarters with my 2 buys and just amass $16 worth of debt all at once?

Your interpretation is correct. The only way you can buy a ton of Debt cards without paying them off in between is if you're possessing someone and you're accumulating the Debt tokens as they buy cards for you.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #112 on: May 09, 2016, 02:47:29 pm »
+2

It seems to me that some people are suggesting that with +10 buys, you could buy 10 debt cards in a single turn, and just worry about the massive debt later (or never, if the game has just ended).  My interpretation of the rule, and I could be missing something, is that I can only buy one debt card if I can't pay it off.  Example:  buy City quarter with 4, I now have 4 debt, I try to buy another oh wait I can't buy anything because I have debt now.  Or are others correct, and I can buy 2 City Quarters with my 2 buys and just amass $16 worth of debt all at once?

The people talking about using massive +Buy to gain a ton of Debt cards are mostly talking about Possession turns.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #113 on: May 09, 2016, 02:48:04 pm »
+1

Capital seems risky.  Here's a thought experiment.  Let's say you buy this over Gold.  (I know I'm comparing it to a $6 card, but Gold is a good comparison point for a lot of $5 cards.)  Compared to Gold, on the turn you play it, this card gives you +$3, +1 Buy now and -$6 next turn.  Is that really worth it?  My guess is that most of the time the answer will be no.
Obviously there are a lot of weak points with my thought experiment.  Capital is better than this scenario if you don't have another source of +Buy, if you only have $5 the turn you buy it, if you play it on your last turn, if you need to spike large amounts of money quickly for King's Court or something similar, or if you have a way to keep it from being discarded (Mandarin, Counterfeit, Herbalist).  Overall, I think it will be a situational card, and I don't see myself buying it very often.

Besides the things you've mentioned, money now is just more valuable than money later. Playing Capital (to buy nice things, or maybe even 2 nice things) or buying a card with Debt will immediately help your deck improve and possibly increase the output of money on the very next turn.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #114 on: May 09, 2016, 02:52:11 pm »
0

Capital seems risky.  Here's a thought experiment.  Let's say you buy this over Gold.  (I know I'm comparing it to a $6 card, but Gold is a good comparison point for a lot of $5 cards.)  Compared to Gold, on the turn you play it, this card gives you +$3, +1 Buy now and -$6 next turn.  Is that really worth it?  My guess is that most of the time the answer will be no.
Obviously there are a lot of weak points with my thought experiment.  Capital is better than this scenario if you don't have another source of +Buy, if you only have $5 the turn you buy it, if you play it on your last turn, if you need to spike large amounts of money quickly for King's Court or something similar, or if you have a way to keep it from being discarded (Mandarin, Counterfeit, Herbalist).  Overall, I think it will be a situational card, and I don't see myself buying it very often.

Besides the things you've mentioned, money now is just more valuable than money later. Playing Capital (to buy nice things, or maybe even 2 nice things) or buying a card with Debt will immediately help your deck improve and possibly increase the output of money on the very next turn.

I thought about this, and most of the time I just don't think it will be worth it.  How many cards can you buy with an extra $3 that will increase your money by $3 next turn?  That's what it would take for Capital to be worth it.  King's Court seems to qualify, but I can't think of many others.  Obviously that will be board dependent.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #115 on: May 09, 2016, 02:55:35 pm »
+8

Speaking of which, Donald, when will the change take effect? Immediately, as soon as MF implements it (few months), 2017...?
It went into effect Friday. I hope you've been playing it correctly.

Also, while I'm Possessing, does my opponent use my token like their own in full (under my direction) or do they spend theirs and whatever they gain goes to me?
Always remember that Possession is the other player taking a turn in which you make the decisions and get the cards and now tokens.

I Possess you, you have debt, that prevents you from buying cards. I could have you pay off debt. I can have you convert your coin tokens to $. It's all you doing stuff that I make the decisions for.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #116 on: May 09, 2016, 02:57:00 pm »
0

Guys: be careful with Royal Blacksmith.  If your deck is mostly Coppers, it can end up decreasing your handsize.

I don't think you need to "be careful" with that... Warehouse and Cellar also decrease your handsize, but that's ok because you replace those discarded Coppers with better cards. Granted, you don't want to open Royal Blacksmith and play it on turn 3....

Woah, I didn't even realize until reading another recent post.... this is way worse than I thought. If you open Royal Blacksmith, you instantly lose the game. If you and your opponent both open Royal Blacksmith, you must play on forever until one of you starves to death. Always bring a snack, that's my advice.

*Edit* Never mind, forgot you can pay off $8 with only max $5 in your hand, just takes multiple turns.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:04:06 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #117 on: May 09, 2016, 02:58:16 pm »
+3

Debt as a mechanic basically allows more flexibility with your buys. You can buy these for 8 straight up, buy them for 6-7 if you're a couple coins short, buy them for 4 now and 4 the next turn. I think the most important part about when you go into debt is that the card you're adding to your deck is immediately good. You can go into debt on your opening buys, but I don't imagine that's going to be useful a lot of the time, certainly not with the two previewed actions. If you can play your big debt card a turn or two down the line, then its ideally going to finish paying for itself and then some.

City Quarter is a Village with a mix of Crossroads/Scrying Pool style unbounded draw. Unlike Scrying Pool, though, City Quarter is not going to be that good at kickstarting your turn unless you have such incredibly high action density that over half your starting hand is actions. It will be best at drawing the rest of your deck once you're halfway through it. Trashing and sifting are a great aid to avoid it choking on stop cards.

Royal Blacksmith, on the other hand, is very good at kickstarting a turn. If you can't trash your starting coppers, I suspect it will play out a lot like Embassy - but Embassy is a pretty good card and you get to not give your opponent a Silver. With all the actions you draw, you should be able to get back to your discarded coppers again. You could also use sifting again - Warehouse away the coppers you're about to discard anyway.

Capital works with debt a little differently. In a sense, it turns every card on the board into a debt card. Buy Province now, pay for it later in the Tournament game, buy KC now so you can start having megaturns and easily pay off the debt. This seems pretty good, actually. The two debt cost cards previewed don't seem that strong for 8 straight up, so that's where the debt comes in as an advantage. If you have cards competitively costed at 5/6/7, then debt is a huge buff. Then this card costs 5, generates net 0 coins until the final turn, when it generates 6. That's ok too - the extra free cash should help end the game. Edit: oh there's also the Herbalist/Mandarin thing that others have mentioned.

This all makes me wish Prince was a debt card. It's often a pain to hit 8 early enough for Prince to matter, so debt would help you buy it as soon as you think you can line it up with the right action.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:11:57 pm by ced »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #118 on: May 09, 2016, 02:58:47 pm »
0

If you buy a Debt card and you have no treasure in your deck (and no virtual money or gainers or anything) I guess you've just locked yourself out of the game!  You can't even buy a single copper to start pulling yourself out. 

How does this happen? (Not claiming it can't, just curious on the possibilities--maybe Spoils play a role?)

Also, may have been answered before, but paying off debt does NOT use a Buy, correct?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #119 on: May 09, 2016, 02:59:23 pm »
+4

Guys: be careful with Royal Blacksmith.  If your deck is mostly Coppers, it can end up decreasing your handsize.

I don't think you need to "be careful" with that... Warehouse and Cellar also decrease your handsize, but that's ok because you replace those discarded Coppers with better cards. Granted, you don't want to open Royal Blacksmith and play it on turn 3....

Woah, I didn't even realize until reading another recent post.... this is way worse than I thought. If you open Royal Blacksmith, you instantly lose the game. If you and your opponent both open Royal Blacksmith, you must play on forever until one of you starves to death. Always bring a snack, that's my advice.

What? It doesn't trash your Coppers, it just discards them.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #120 on: May 09, 2016, 02:59:30 pm »
+4

Guys: be careful with Royal Blacksmith.  If your deck is mostly Coppers, it can end up decreasing your handsize.

I don't think you need to "be careful" with that... Warehouse and Cellar also decrease your handsize, but that's ok because you replace those discarded Coppers with better cards. Granted, you don't want to open Royal Blacksmith and play it on turn 3....

Woah, I didn't even realize until reading another recent post.... this is way worse than I thought. If you open Royal Blacksmith, you instantly lose the game. If you and your opponent both open Royal Blacksmith, you must play on forever until one of you starves to death. Always bring a snack, that's my advice.

Well you don't have to play Action cards on your turn.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #121 on: May 09, 2016, 02:59:38 pm »
0

Can't you conceivably also make it so that you're in debt the turn your opponent possesses you, so he can't buy anything at all?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #122 on: May 09, 2016, 03:01:28 pm »
+3

Guys: be careful with Royal Blacksmith.  If your deck is mostly Coppers, it can end up decreasing your handsize.

I don't think you need to "be careful" with that... Warehouse and Cellar also decrease your handsize, but that's ok because you replace those discarded Coppers with better cards. Granted, you don't want to open Royal Blacksmith and play it on turn 3....

Woah, I didn't even realize until reading another recent post.... this is way worse than I thought. If you open Royal Blacksmith, you instantly lose the game. If you and your opponent both open Royal Blacksmith, you must play on forever until one of you starves to death. Always bring a snack, that's my advice.

You aren't self-pinned. You can gradually pay off the debt with your coppers until you are debt-free.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #123 on: May 09, 2016, 03:02:14 pm »
0

Can't you conceivably also make it so that you're in debt the turn your opponent possesses you, so he can't buy anything at all?

Your opponent can choose to make you pay off your debt, then if you made enough money you can buy more cards for him to gain.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #124 on: May 09, 2016, 03:02:45 pm »
0

Guys: be careful with Royal Blacksmith.  If your deck is mostly Coppers, it can end up decreasing your handsize.

I don't think you need to "be careful" with that... Warehouse and Cellar also decrease your handsize, but that's ok because you replace those discarded Coppers with better cards. Granted, you don't want to open Royal Blacksmith and play it on turn 3....

Woah, I didn't even realize until reading another recent post.... this is way worse than I thought. If you open Royal Blacksmith, you instantly lose the game. If you and your opponent both open Royal Blacksmith, you must play on forever until one of you starves to death. Always bring a snack, that's my advice.

What? It doesn't trash your Coppers, it just discards them.

I was thinking that with only $5 in your hand, you wouldn't be able to ever pay off your deck. But I forgot that of course you can just split the payoff over multiple turns.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:08:14 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #125 on: May 09, 2016, 03:02:55 pm »
0

I am trying to think of the problem interaction that prevented Debt cost cards from being coin cost cards with the added ability of being able to purchase with Debt, and I am coming up short. Is Swindler that bad? Remodel too good?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #126 on: May 09, 2016, 03:04:18 pm »
+1

If you buy a Debt card and you have no treasure in your deck (and no virtual money or gainers or anything) I guess you've just locked yourself out of the game!  You can't even buy a single copper to start pulling yourself out. 
How does this happen? (Not claiming it can't, just curious on the possibilities--maybe Spoils play a role?)

Open Chapel, trash all your cards, after Chapel is the only card in your deck, buy a Debt card, now you can't buy anything and have no way of paying off the debt; your only hope is an opponent Masquerading you something that gives you +Coins.

Also, may have been answered before, but paying off debt does NOT use a Buy, correct?

Correct
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:05:33 pm by michaeljb »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #127 on: May 09, 2016, 03:06:11 pm »
+5

I am trying to think of the problem interaction that prevented Debt cost cards from being coin cost cards with the added ability of being able to purchase with Debt, and I am coming up short. Is Swindler that bad? Remodel too good?

We did try them that way in some fashion. Swindler was, in fact, horrifying.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #128 on: May 09, 2016, 03:09:02 pm »
0

I am trying to think of the problem interaction that prevented Debt cost cards from being coin cost cards with the added ability of being able to purchase with Debt, and I am coming up short. Is Swindler that bad? Remodel too good?

We did try them that way in some fashion. Swindler was, in fact, horrifying.

I think Swindler is probably my least favorite card in the entire game.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #129 on: May 09, 2016, 03:10:03 pm »
+4

Also, may have been answered before, but paying off debt does NOT use a Buy, correct?
Paying off debt does not use a Buy.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #130 on: May 09, 2016, 03:24:10 pm »
0

Also, may have been answered before, but paying off debt does NOT use a Buy, correct?

Correct.  That's how Capital lets you pay off Debt in your Clean-up phase.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #131 on: May 09, 2016, 03:26:45 pm »
+3

So, I assume Debt, VP and Coin Tokens work this way, then. What about Pirate Ship tokens?
Yes, you also get those tokens.
LF has reminded me that no, you don't get Pirate Ship tokens.

If you got them, they would just be regular coin tokens, not on a mat; remember other information is lost (e.g. their Bureaucrat gives you Silver in your discard pile, not on your deck).

Pirate Ship needs a clearer phrasing to deal with Guilds existing and that phrasing also has to be clearly different from getting tokens the other ways.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #132 on: May 09, 2016, 03:30:33 pm »
0

Will your previews be posted at the same time tomorrow?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #133 on: May 09, 2016, 03:31:42 pm »
+2

If you buy a Debt card and you have no treasure in your deck (and no virtual money or gainers or anything) I guess you've just locked yourself out of the game!  You can't even buy a single copper to start pulling yourself out. 
How does this happen? (Not claiming it can't, just curious on the possibilities--maybe Spoils play a role?)

Open Chapel, trash all your cards, after Chapel is the only card in your deck, buy a Debt card, now you can't buy anything and have no way of paying off the debt; your only hope is an opponent Masquerading you something that gives you +Coins.

Oh duh, somehow I keep thinking you would have to have hit $8 to have bought the card even though not having to do so is literally the entire point.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #134 on: May 09, 2016, 03:33:28 pm »
0

Will your previews be posted at the same time tomorrow?
Well they won't be earlier. The plan is to have them around the same time but I won't know for sure until it happens.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #135 on: May 09, 2016, 03:34:31 pm »
+10

Wow, this Debt sure has a high rate of interest.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #136 on: May 09, 2016, 03:37:26 pm »
+7

I am trying to think of the problem interaction that prevented Debt cost cards from being coin cost cards with the added ability of being able to purchase with Debt, and I am coming up short. Is Swindler that bad? Remodel too good?
It's not just interactions, where some are nice and some not. It's also, that reddish hexagon with an 8 on it is the entirety of what City Quarter uses to invoke this mechanic. Rather than, you know, a bunch of text.

Originally they had big costs. Then they had like "when you gain this during your turn, take 8 Debt" (these are the ones where Swindler really hurt). The 8 in the corner was the best approach; I could have gone back if it hadn't been better.

Edit: To clarify this for some of you, the reason having Swindler hit "when you gain this during your turn, take 8 Debt" really hurt is because the card itself cost $0; they Swindle it into a Curse and you lose the card you paid $8 for. You never got Debt via having your card Swindled; note the "during your turn."
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 04:19:22 pm by Donald X. »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #137 on: May 09, 2016, 03:54:36 pm »
0

Capital and Wine Merchant seem similar. Also, they have an interesting interaction. I think that when you discard Wine Merchants, you can still use those $2 to pay off debt, because you get to choose the order of things. Is this true, or does Wine Merchant always happen last?

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #138 on: May 09, 2016, 03:56:16 pm »
0

It's not just interactions, where some are nice and some not. It's also, that reddish hexagon with an 8 on it is the entirety of what City Quarter uses to invoke this mechanic. Rather than, you know, a bunch of text.

Originally they had big costs. Then they had like "when you gain this during your turn, take 8 Debt" (these are the ones where Swindler really hurt). The 8 in the corner was the best approach; I could have gone back if it hadn't been better.

So, if a card that "costs X debt" gets hit by Swindler, then it just gets trashed and replaced by a card that costs the same X debt, without the player accruing additional debt tokens?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #139 on: May 09, 2016, 03:57:13 pm »
0

Capital and Wine Merchant seem similar. Also, they have an interesting interaction. I think that when you discard Wine Merchants, you can still use those $2 to pay off debt, because you get to choose the order of things. Is this true, or does Wine Merchant always happen last?

No... You have to pay of debts in your buy phase. Wine Merchant checks if you have $2 at the end of your buy phase. It's not yet the end of your buy phase if you're still doing things in your buy phase like paying off debts.

*Edit* Sorry, that was for the normal case of paying off debts. If you are discarding a Capital from play, then you get an extra chance to pay off debts, in which case yes, you can pay off debts with the $2 you had at the end of your buy phase.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:59:06 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #140 on: May 09, 2016, 03:57:32 pm »
0

Capital and Wine Merchant seem similar. Also, they have an interesting interaction. I think that when you discard Wine Merchants, you can still use those $2 to pay off debt, because you get to choose the order of things. Is this true, or does Wine Merchant always happen last?

You would discard Capital after the end of your Buy phase, so you could release your Wine Merchants and still use your excess coin to pay off debt.  That is, specifically Capital's debt.  You would have to pay off other debt accrued that Buy phase first.  Although... do you have to pay off debt?  Could you leave for your Wine Merchants and just keep those 2 extra Debt tokens?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:58:35 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #141 on: May 09, 2016, 04:00:14 pm »
+1

Capital and Wine Merchant seem similar. Also, they have an interesting interaction. I think that when you discard Wine Merchants, you can still use those $2 to pay off debt, because you get to choose the order of things. Is this true, or does Wine Merchant always happen last?

You would discard Capital after the end of your Buy phase, so you could release your Wine Merchants and still use your excess coin to pay off debt.  That is, specifically Capital's debt.  You would have to pay off other debt accrued that Buy phase first.  Although... do you have to pay off debt?  Could you leave for your Wine Merchants and just keep those 2 extra Debt tokens?

No rule was mentioned about being forced to pay off debts, so it seems pretty clear to me that you could keep the debt and discard Wine Merchant.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #142 on: May 09, 2016, 04:05:53 pm »
+1

Wine Merchant gets bought back at the end of the buy phase. So you can first get your Wine Merchant back, then discard Capital and use the 2$ to pay of debt.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #143 on: May 09, 2016, 04:08:31 pm »
0

I also love that Possession is getting a nerf. It's not the best card in the world to begin with, but now it's even not as good. :)

It's getting a buff. Previously, you could counter Possession by going for Goons and Bishop and Monument, but now if you do that, your opponent will get the tokens instead when he possesses you.

I haven't skimmed the whole thread yet, but we don't know if there will be more VP generating cards than debt cards. It's too soon to know for sure whether it's a buff or a nerf. It's possibly a nerf against Guilds coin token cards too since they can't be stockpiled for use across multiple possession turns.

Possession is going to be weird with debt because the possessee can be made to buy like 10 debt cards in one turn. Then the Possessor can just focus on playing Possession while preventing the opponent from buying anything and pulling the same trick when they themselves are possessed, because of all the debt. The lesson here is to avoid +buy cards in a Possession game with debt cards.

So like, people have been listing the hundreds of little ways that Mission rocks. I imagine debt cards will be strong for similar reasons given how dramatic their effects are.

I like that the debt cards avoid the King's Court problem where "first one to get it wins". These cards are always accessible so long as you have no debt, similar to Chapel. I imagine these were ideas that were too difficult to price fairly without the introduction of debt.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #144 on: May 09, 2016, 04:10:07 pm »
0

The problem with Mission "synergy" is that you can't buy the Mission in the first place if you're in Debt.  :)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #145 on: May 09, 2016, 04:10:44 pm »
+3

The problem with Mission "synergy" is that you can't buy the Mission in the first place if you're in Debt.  :)

But you can buy Mission, then buy a Debt card. Which can be worth it if you're likely to make more than $4 next turn.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #146 on: May 09, 2016, 04:11:13 pm »
0

The problem with Mission "synergy" is that you can't buy the Mission in the first place if you're in Debt.  :)

But you can buy Mission, then buy a Debt card.

True.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #147 on: May 09, 2016, 04:11:43 pm »
0

The problem with Mission "synergy" is that you can't buy the Mission in the first place if you're in Debt.  :)

Why don't you buy mission first?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #148 on: May 09, 2016, 04:13:01 pm »
+5

So, if a card that "costs X debt" gets hit by Swindler, then it just gets trashed and replaced by a card that costs the same X debt, without the player accruing additional debt tokens?
Buying City Quarter gets you 8 Debt. That's the only way City Quarter gives you Debt; it doesn't give it to you if you gain one via Jester or Swindler or Remodel or what have you.

There were never versions that gave you Debt when gaining these via Jester or Swindler or Remodel or what have you; when they said "when you gain this during your turn, take 8 Debt" they had that "during your turn" to stop e.g. Ambassador from being a big Debt attack.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #149 on: May 09, 2016, 04:13:41 pm »
0

I haven't skimmed the whole thread yet, but we don't know if there will be more VP generating cards than debt cards. It's too soon to know for sure whether it's a buff or a nerf. It's possibly a nerf against Guilds coin token cards too since they can't be stockpiled for use across multiple possession turns.

Well, I was only considering the existing card interactions. I guess it could be considered a nerf if you take into account the new cards.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #150 on: May 09, 2016, 04:18:00 pm »
+1

Strategic thought: Buying debt cards right before a reshuffle, if you have a mediocre hand, might be a good play. It lets you squeeze one more good card into your next reshuffle without the debt affecting it. It does of course affect the next shuffle, but hey that shuffle is better now anyway thanks to your debt purchase.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #151 on: May 09, 2016, 04:19:56 pm »
0

This was asked over on BGG, but I want to make sure - can you pay off Debt during Black Market's buy?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #152 on: May 09, 2016, 04:20:17 pm »
+2

This was asked over on BGG, but I want to make sure - can you pay off Debt during Black Market's buy?
You can't.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #153 on: May 09, 2016, 04:32:42 pm »
0

Maybe this can't be answered yet, but how many debt tokens come with Empires? Do they come in different denominations like VP tokens do?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #154 on: May 09, 2016, 04:35:22 pm »
+2

Maybe this can't be answered yet, but how many debt tokens come with Empires? Do they come in different denominations like VP tokens do?
There are 40 and they are all 1's. They are not counter-limited but it's hard to rack up Debt; City Quarter for example never lets you have more than 8 Debt, except with Possession.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #155 on: May 09, 2016, 04:49:41 pm »
0

After thinking about it, it's pretty clear that overall Possession is getting a buff, just based on the information we already have.

Yes, you can get into debt to shut down a turn of Possession. If that is the only reason you are getting into debt for, you might have some problems with the deck.

Imagine an engine that uses capital to make a bunch of money and then plans to pay it all off on the next turn. It would have to be reliable enough to not be a defense against Possession to be effective as an engine (a crazy sentence, but I think the flow is there).
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #156 on: May 09, 2016, 04:55:29 pm »
0

I am trying to think of the problem interaction that prevented Debt cost cards from being coin cost cards with the added ability of being able to purchase with Debt, and I am coming up short. Is Swindler that bad? Remodel too good?
It's not just interactions, where some are nice and some not. It's also, that reddish hexagon with an 8 on it is the entirety of what City Quarter uses to invoke this mechanic. Rather than, you know, a bunch of text.

Originally they had big costs. Then they had like "when you gain this during your turn, take 8 Debt" (these are the ones where Swindler really hurt). The 8 in the corner was the best approach; I could have gone back if it hadn't been better.

Edit: To clarify this for some of you, the reason having Swindler hit "when you gain this during your turn, take 8 Debt" really hurt is because the card itself cost $0; they Swindle it into a Curse and you lose the card you paid $8 for. You never got Debt via having your card Swindled; note the "during your turn."

I was definitely thinking Swindler would turn red hex 8 into Province, not Curse. The way it is, the Debt cost cards have the Potion cost problem with Swindler: when a pile is empty and you hit that Debt cost card, it's likely you get NOTHING, not even a Province.

I was imagining something similar to Peddler: 8* with text allowing you to lower the cost by taking on Debt. Yeah, wall of text is a good reason not to do that. However, it doesn't preclude just defining the red hex 8 to be "regular cost 8, but you may take on debt to finance this card",  just like the starred costs are still in coin.

But perhaps my curiosity about how this developed will be in the eagerly awaited Secret History of Empires.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #157 on: May 09, 2016, 04:57:30 pm »
0

Speaking of which, Donald, when will the change take effect? Immediately, as soon as MF implements it (few months), 2017...?
It went into effect Friday. I hope you've been playing it correctly.

Also, while I'm Possessing, does my opponent use my token like their own in full (under my direction) or do they spend theirs and whatever they gain goes to me?
Always remember that Possession is the other player taking a turn in which you make the decisions and get the cards and now tokens.

I Possess you, you have debt, that prevents you from buying cards. I could have you pay off debt. I can have you convert your coin tokens to $. It's all you doing stuff that I make the decisions for.

Thanks for the clarification.
Out of curiosity, do you plan to change the card text of the online version of Possession and of new printings?



The new Possession has a cool interaction with Coin token cards. If you can reliably play Possession, your payload in coin tokens is essentially guaranteed to be available only to you. Your opponent may or may not choose to play your Bakers, but if they do play them, you'll be the one using those tokens anyway. It's kind of similar to how vp cards are in old-P, only lopsided. Keeping tokens from turn to turn is still a bad idea, and getting Butcher is also still a pretty bad idea.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #158 on: May 09, 2016, 04:58:16 pm »
0

This was asked over on BGG, but I want to make sure - can you pay off Debt during Black Market's buy?
You can't.

And you can't buy from the Black Market if you have Debt?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #159 on: May 09, 2016, 04:59:20 pm »
+1

This was asked over on BGG, but I want to make sure - can you pay off Debt during Black Market's buy?
You can't.

And you can't buy from the Black Market if you have Debt?

Correct.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #160 on: May 09, 2016, 05:00:58 pm »
0

It's interesting to me that the two debt-cost cards previewed are both absolutely terrible opening-round buys. City Quarter will at best replace itself if you draw your other action with it (assuming the other opening buy was an action). Royal Blacksmith will at worst discard every treasure you have, and at best leave you with a single silver, if that was your other opening buy. I'll be curious to see if the remainder of the debt-cost cards are just as bad as openers, or if there may be some that make the initial crippling debt worthwhile.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #161 on: May 09, 2016, 05:03:17 pm »
+1

Maybe this can't be answered yet, but how many debt tokens come with Empires? Do they come in different denominations like VP tokens do?
There are 40 and they are all 1's. They are not counter-limited but it's hard to rack up Debt; City Quarter for example never lets you have more than 8 Debt, except with Possession.

Capital can accumulate quite a bit though; I believe 18 was my record, in a highly-leveraged Storyteller engine. That game also set my record for most coin in a single turn, with 104.  [Edit:  Which I can now reveal was after using Fortune to double it.]
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 12:59:30 am by Elestan »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #162 on: May 09, 2016, 05:05:14 pm »
+1

Out of curiosity, do you plan to change the card text of the online version of Possession and of new printings?
Yes, eventually.

The new Possession has a cool interaction with Coin token cards. If you can reliably play Possession, your payload in coin tokens is essentially guaranteed to be available only to you. Your opponent may or may not choose to play your Bakers, but if they do play them, you'll be the one using those tokens anyway. It's kind of similar to how vp cards are in old-P, only lopsided. Keeping tokens from turn to turn is still a bad idea, and getting Butcher is also still a pretty bad idea.
I am not sure I follow you. If I possess you and make you play Baker, I get the coin token.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #163 on: May 09, 2016, 05:12:02 pm »
+1

Out of curiosity, do you plan to change the card text of the online version of Possession and of new printings?
Yes, eventually.

The new Possession has a cool interaction with Coin token cards. If you can reliably play Possession, your payload in coin tokens is essentially guaranteed to be available only to you. Your opponent may or may not choose to play your Bakers, but if they do play them, you'll be the one using those tokens anyway. It's kind of similar to how vp cards are in old-P, only lopsided. Keeping tokens from turn to turn is still a bad idea, and getting Butcher is also still a pretty bad idea.
I am not sure I follow you. If I possess you and make you play Baker, I get the coin token.

And if I can reliably play Possession, I'm going to use that coin before you can.
Unless I'm getting this rule change wrong in the third different way since I've heard about it. -.-'
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #164 on: May 09, 2016, 05:20:48 pm »
+6

Thoughts before reading 160+ replies in this thread...

Debt is a surprise to me.  Similar ideas have been discussed on fan cards.  I like that it's present on multiple cards as a set mechanic rather than on just one specific card, justifying the extra complexity and components.  But it's also actually very simple.  Instead of having to resolve interest, it's just an easily understood ban on buying anything else.

It'll be interesting to see how Debt-costing cards compare to other cards with non-Debt costs.  Potion is still pretty easy to grok, in that the Potion-cost limits you to gaining only one Potion-cost card per shuffle per Potion you have.  The need to line up Potion with other money means that more expensive Potion cards like Golem and Possession are that much harder to get.

OTOH, Debt-cost cards are easy to get, because you could even get them for free.  But you'll pay for it later, and that can be a real problem if you're not careful.  Neither City Quarter nor Royal Blacksmith seem like they are worth $8 up-front, but splitting the costs into multiple turns makes them more palatable.  In a sense, it's like Tactician where you sacrifice one turn to make another turn way better.  In this case, you get the good turn first (where you buy the powerful card) and then weaken your next turn or two while you pay off the debt.  Capital emphasizes this multi-turn pacing even more by advancing you $6 that will be taken from your next turn(s).

Theme-wise, I really like Royal Blacksmith.  He's a particularly skilled Smithy, but he refuses to work with inferior metals.  Nice.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #165 on: May 09, 2016, 05:24:38 pm »
+3

OTOH, Debt-cost cards are easy to get, because you could even get them for free.  But you'll pay for it later, and that can be a real problem if you're not careful.  Neither City Quarter nor Royal Blacksmith seem like they are worth $8 up-front, but splitting the costs into multiple turns makes them more palatable.  In a sense, it's like Tactician where you sacrifice one turn to make another turn way better.  In this case, you get the good turn first (where you buy the powerful card) and then weaken your next turn or two while you pay off the debt.  Capital emphasizes this multi-turn pacing even more by advancing you $6 that will be taken from your next turn(s).

What I like about them, design-wise, is that they are both quite terrible if you get them too early, and this compensates the lack of an entry barrier to get them.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #166 on: May 09, 2016, 05:26:20 pm »
+2

I am not sure I follow you. If I possess you and make you play Baker, I get the coin token.

And if I can reliably play Possession, I'm going to use that coin before you can.
Unless I'm getting this rule change wrong in the third different way since I've heard about it. -.-'
Oh I see.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #167 on: May 09, 2016, 05:41:55 pm »
+4

Capital seems to be a good way to get Grand Markets. $6 so you can afford it, and then you can pay it off next turn, without having to bother about the Copper rule.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #168 on: May 09, 2016, 05:50:11 pm »
0

So much of this discussion is about Possession instead of Empires, haha. But I had a few questions:

- I thought I understood the apples-and-oranges-like-Potion thing, but now I'm doubting myself. So with the way Debt ended up, the interaction with Swindler is you can only turn 8-Debt cards into other 8-Debt cards (assuming there are any left)? And you get no cards from Apprentice, and no "benefit" for Forge, etc.?
- When do your coins reset? At the end of your turn? I thought they went away at the end of your Buy phase, but that wouldn't make sense with Capital.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #169 on: May 09, 2016, 05:53:43 pm »
+2

- I thought I understood the apples-and-oranges-like-Potion thing, but now I'm doubting myself. So with the way Debt ended up, the interaction with Swindler is you can only turn 8-Debt cards into other 8-Debt cards (assuming there are any left)? And you get no cards from Apprentice, and no "benefit" for Forge, etc.?

Correct.

- When do your coins reset? At the end of your turn? I thought they went away at the end of your Buy phase, but that wouldn't make sense with Capital.

The end of your turn, yes.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #170 on: May 09, 2016, 06:02:45 pm »
+1

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #171 on: May 09, 2016, 06:09:58 pm »
+1

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

I would take the other side of that bet.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #172 on: May 09, 2016, 06:11:05 pm »
0

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

Capital/Herbalist with a Princed Scheme buys a Province every turn.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #173 on: May 09, 2016, 06:14:39 pm »
+1

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

My initial guess would be to put it somewhere just below the middle of the list; often skippable, sometimes really good and usually not totally ignorable, similar to Knights.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #174 on: May 09, 2016, 06:15:21 pm »
0

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

Capital/Herbalist with a Princed Scheme buys a Province every turn.

Why not just Prince Herbalist? Also my Minion stack laughs at such foolish notions.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #175 on: May 09, 2016, 06:15:30 pm »
0

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

Capital/Herbalist with a Princed Scheme buys a Province every turn.
How?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #176 on: May 09, 2016, 06:20:20 pm »
+1

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

Capital/Herbalist with a Princed Scheme buys a Province every turn.

Why not just Prince Herbalist? Also my Minion stack laughs at such foolish notions.

The Scheme is for Moat.  ;)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #177 on: May 09, 2016, 06:26:22 pm »
+1

Capital won't be a bad card. It'll be great in colony games, but could also be a useful to make mega turns.

Even with a generic board though, it works out as though you're playing a 0, but it can smooth over any inconsistencies. If you can't trash starting copper then you often find yourself with 2 buys and 7 one turn then 1 buy with 10 the next.
If the above holds, receiving the card instead of a copper: turn one allows you to buy 2 5s, and repay the four loan the next turn, still leaving you with a gold turn two; turn two it could spike double province, double gold, or just be a useful second buy.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #178 on: May 09, 2016, 06:35:21 pm »
0

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

Capital/Herbalist with a Princed Scheme buys a Province every turn.
How?

Well more accurately it will get you $7 each turn but it is hard to imagine not being able to get another $1 from the 3 other cards you draw plus the extra one from Prince playing Scheme each turn.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #179 on: May 09, 2016, 06:35:56 pm »
0

Capital won't be a bad card. It'll be great in colony games, but could also be a useful to make mega turns.

Even with a generic board though, it works out as though you're playing a 0, but it can smooth over any inconsistencies. If you can't trash starting copper then you often find yourself with 2 buys and 7 one turn then 1 buy with 10 the next.
If the above holds, receiving the card instead of a copper: turn one allows you to buy 2 5s, and repay the four loan the next turn, still leaving you with a gold turn two; turn two it could spike double province, double gold, or just be a useful second buy.

Yes, but almost all $5 cards compare favorably to Copper.  They just don't compare favorably to other $5 cards.  If I was offered some free Capital, I would definitely take it, but there's opportunity cost to worry about.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #180 on: May 09, 2016, 06:37:07 pm »
+2

New thought for fan cards (and maybe some official cards that are yet to be revealed): a cheap debt card would be a lot like a regular cost card, because you wouldn't often need to put off paying for it.  But it would have an important distinction - you can't gain it with cost-based gainers like Workshop, and you can't reduce its cost (unless there is a new card that does that specifically).  You could also mix regular coin costs and debt costs to make something that essentially reduces in cost to a positive minimum.

Because of that clause, I suspect that there will be some card that cares directly about how much debt you have or whether you have debt. Maybe something that multiplies opponents' debt. Otherwise paying off debt early would be unnecessary, since the next time you could buy a card, you could just pay off the debt then.

(Except Black Market, but that's hardly a reason for that whole line of text.)

I thought that at first, but the clause is also helpful if you don't need the full $6 from Capital.  As a simple case, suppose you only want to buy 2 Curses this turn for some reason.  You play Capital for the +Buy and don't need the $6 at all.  Without that clause, you are $6 in debt next turn.  The clause lets you pay off the debt immediately instead.  (I see Watno said this more succinctly than I did.)

I now want there to be a way to save up unused money from previous turns to pre-pay debt.
That's called coin tokens... right?

I assume you can use coin tokens to play off debt. It's a bit like a matter-antimatter annihilation.

Remember that you spend coin tokens at the start of the Buy phase to generate +$1 each; you can't just spend them any time you want.  So at the start of your buy phase, you spend however many coin tokens you want.  Then you can pay off your debt your accumulated coins, whether you got them from actions, treasures or coin tokens.

Donald. There is no Emperor card.

How do you know?

I don't know if I've said this before, but having a King/Queen/Emperor card just seems wrong, because the player is supposed to be those things. I think MTG has a thing where you can play cards that are like players, but I don't think Dominion should.

Another thing, I like that you can open with both City Quarter and Royal Blacksmith, but you don't want to.

That's why the Emperor card just has reflective foil instead of card art. ;)

How can you all already determine whether it is a buff or nerf for Possession? So far, we have three cards that generate VP. Maybe this set has twelve debt cards, then it's clearly a nerf. Probably it doesn't have that much, and it maybe has some other VP generating cards which would buff Possession but it's definitely too early to determine the new strength of possession.

Still wouldn't be clear.  The Possessor gaining the debt tokens is not necessarily a bad thing, because it means the Possessed player can continue to buy debt-cost cards without paying them off immediately.

Nobody is asking the important questions yet.

How are we going to include these in the Qvist community card rankings?

I'd count an <X> cost card as an $X card.  You don't have to pay the full coin cost up-front, but you have to pay it eventually (unless you carry it to the end of the game).

Also, may have been answered before, but paying off debt does NOT use a Buy, correct?

Correct.  That's how Capital lets you pay off Debt in your Clean-up phase.

No, Capital lets you pay off Debt in Clean-up because it says so.  It would work even if it normally cost a Buy to pay off debt, just like how Cultist lets you play another Cultist for free even though it usually requires an action.

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

My initial guess would be to put it somewhere just below the middle of the list; often skippable, sometimes really good and usually not totally ignorable, similar to Knights.

I'll guess that it's above the middle.  More specifically, I expect that it will be very dependent on the rest of the board.  It looks to me like one of the best cards for spiking high costs.  +$6 is better than any other static coin producer, and it doesn't even have a requirement attached to it (like Baron, for example).  You hurt your next turn or two, but that's a small price to pay to grab a quick King's Court or Grand Market, or even to reach Colony in a junky deck that keeps topping out at $5-$6 a turn.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #181 on: May 09, 2016, 06:40:58 pm »
+5

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

Capital/Herbalist with a Princed Scheme buys a Province every turn.

I will try to remember this for the 1 in (math math math) eleventy billion games that includes four specific cards out of the 225 or so.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #182 on: May 09, 2016, 08:51:28 pm »
0

Because of that clause, I suspect that there will be some card that cares directly about how much debt you have or whether you have debt. Maybe something that multiplies opponents' debt. Otherwise paying off debt early would be unnecessary, since the next time you could buy a card, you could just pay off the debt then.

(Except Black Market, but that's hardly a reason for that whole line of text.)

I thought that at first, but the clause is also helpful if you don't need the full $6 from Capital.  As a simple case, suppose you only want to buy 2 Curses this turn for some reason.  You play Capital for the +Buy and don't need the $6 at all.  Without that clause, you are $6 in debt next turn.  The clause lets you pay off the debt immediately instead.  (I see Watno said this more succinctly than I did.)

I got it now! I had figured you could pay off the debt after your buy anyway. But you don't actually have the debt to pay off until you discard Capital, at which point you are done buying.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #183 on: May 09, 2016, 08:55:39 pm »
0

I think capital will end up being a bad card. Above stash/contraband, but still bad.

Capital/Herbalist with a Princed Scheme buys a Province every turn.

I will try to remember this for the 1 in (math math math) eleventy billion games that includes four specific cards out of the 225 or so.

Any deck-drawing engine with Herbalist and Capital can benefit from the interaction. Or just buy a zillion Herbalists a la Herbalist/Philosopher's Stone.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #184 on: May 09, 2016, 08:55:58 pm »
0

Can Band of Misfits be a debt-cost card? Or is Debt a separate currency, like Potions?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #185 on: May 09, 2016, 08:58:20 pm »
0

I just realized Bridge Troll could hand out a Debt token instead of using the - token.  But that would be stackable, and therefore much, much worse...
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #186 on: May 09, 2016, 08:58:56 pm »
+3

Can Band of Misfits be a debt-cost card? Or is Debt a separate currency, like Potions?

The one tricky thing is how these things work when cards compare costs. There it works like Potion: apples and oranges. A reddish hexagon with an 8 isn't more or less than $3.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #187 on: May 09, 2016, 09:08:52 pm »
+2

Another theme of the two most recent expansions is improving Counting House.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #188 on: May 09, 2016, 09:13:41 pm »
+1

Another theme of the two most recent expansions is improving Counting House.

Hmm.  Royal Blacksmith kind of is an inverse CH.  Similarly, City Quarter is kind of an inverse Shanty Town.  But which is more useful?  Being able to draw into Actions if you don't have any?  Or being able to draw if you're already filled up on Actions?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #189 on: May 09, 2016, 09:21:05 pm »
0

Along the lines of bad openers, there could be a inverse coppersmith:
???????? Costs <8>
+$4. +1 Buy: Take a debt token for each copper in play
While this is in play, copper produces 1 less (Or you cannot play copper this turn)
Seems somewhat balanced.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #190 on: May 09, 2016, 09:24:35 pm »
0

(Or you cannot play copper this turn)
Creates rules issues with Venture.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #191 on: May 09, 2016, 09:27:57 pm »
0

I was definitely thinking Swindler would turn red hex 8 into Province, not Curse. The way it is, the Debt cost cards have the Potion cost problem with Swindler: when a pile is empty and you hit that Debt cost card, it's likely you get NOTHING, not even a Province.

I was imagining something similar to Peddler: 8* with text allowing you to lower the cost by taking on Debt.
That sounds like the mirror image of Guilds overpay cards: "Cost 8-  When you buy this you may underpay for it. If you do, gain 1 debt token per $1 you underpaid."

The actual solution seems fine, though: the independent "currency" of red hexagons in card costs is interesting, and as Donald X has pointed out it cuts down on card verbiage.

The only advantage I can see for the "underpay" alternative is that it would have been possible to have cards where things other than debt happened when you underpaid.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #192 on: May 09, 2016, 09:38:57 pm »
+1

Along the lines of bad openers, there could be a inverse coppersmith:
???????? Costs <8>
+$4. +1 Buy: Take a debt token for each copper in play
While this is in play, copper produces 1 less (Or you cannot play copper this turn)
Seems somewhat balanced.

Is that supposed to be a debt token per Copper in play when you buy it?  If so, then it should say, "when you buy this" under a line.  But the while-in-play effect should also be under a line.  Empires may break a lot of our preconceptions for what one can do with a card, but multiple dividing lines??  Never. ;)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #193 on: May 09, 2016, 09:45:05 pm »
+1

Calling a Debt cost VP card.
There was no mention of Reserve cards, so I doubt it.

Can't you conceivably also make it so that you're in debt the turn your opponent possesses you, so he can't buy anything at all?

Your opponent can choose to make you pay off your debt, then if you made enough money you can buy more cards for him to gain.
So now in Possession games, you'll have both players with rubbish decks and a stack of debt tokens, neither willing to pay off either their own or each others' debt because that just enables their opponent to buy actually good cards on the appropriate turns. I'm hereby requesting the makers of Dominion kingdom selection apps to please include a "don't let Possession and debt be in the same game" option.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #194 on: May 09, 2016, 09:55:38 pm »
0

Calling a Debt cost VP card.
There was no mention of Reserve cards, so I doubt it.
It took me forever to get what you were saying.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #195 on: May 09, 2016, 09:59:58 pm »
+9

Calling a Debt cost VP card.
There was no mention of Reserve cards, so I doubt it.
It took me forever to get what you were saying.

Nah, I'd guess that it took you 10 minutes and 33 seconds at most.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #196 on: May 09, 2016, 11:25:12 pm »
0

I just realized Bridge Troll could hand out a Debt token instead of using the - token.  But that would be stackable, and therefore much, much worse...

It's technically not the same effect, either. As an example, if you have two Coppers in hand with one Debt token, you could play the Coppers and discard Wine Merchants from your mat. But with your $1 token, you'd only have $1.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #197 on: May 10, 2016, 03:17:33 am »
0

This debt stuff leads to smoothing and is thus similar to coin tokens (only the other way around). I think that the "buy nothing before you paid off your debt" penalty is simpler than the obvious interest penalty. Interest probably wouldn't work that differently. It is probably hard to hit an implicit interest rate which doesn't incentivize you to not always pay back as much as you can as quickly as you can without making the penalty too weak.
After all this is not a Martin Wallace game in which the debt mechanism is central so it would probably have been hard to implement it such that it leads to interesting decisions.

So the "use(most likely around) two turns to buy a debt card" is probably the best use of a "gain now, pay later" mechanism in Dominion.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #198 on: May 10, 2016, 03:24:25 am »
0

This has probably been answered, but the thread is so long already.  ::)

The "cost" is like a 3rd resource (other than Coins and Potions) and should be treated as such.
But this still means we can Remodel a City Quarter into Royal Blacksmith, right?

Essentially, you can read them both as costing $0 P0 D8.
Also, a CQ can only be Swindled into a CQ or RB.

I sort of like how they're immune to shenanigans like Quarry/Bridge, etc.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #199 on: May 10, 2016, 03:33:19 am »
0

The main reason why I think Capital is definitely going to get purchased a lot more often than Contraband or Cache is that it's insane on your last turn. Insane enough that I bet it will get bought the turn before a lot of the time.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #200 on: May 10, 2016, 04:47:27 am »
0

The main reason why I think Capital is definitely going to get purchased a lot more often than Contraband or Cache is that it's insane on your last turn. Insane enough that I bet it will get bought the turn before a lot of the time.

Also, the potential synergies are much stronger than anything Contraband/Cache have going for themselves. And it definitely has megaturn potential that is a bit weaker than HoP (because one of them doesn't net you a Province), but still something to look out for.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #201 on: May 10, 2016, 06:09:18 am »
+1

Just create a Golden Colony deck with:

2 Princed Herbalists + 2 Capitals.

Capital should help to buy those Princes.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #202 on: May 10, 2016, 07:48:40 am »
0

(Or you cannot play copper this turn)
Creates rules issues with Venture.
Hence the ( )
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #203 on: May 10, 2016, 07:51:53 am »
0

The main reason why I think Capital is definitely going to get purchased a lot more often than Contraband or Cache is that it's insane on your last turn. Insane enough that I bet it will get bought the turn before a lot of the time.
I'm agreeing that it will make it above the other lame $5 treasures. You don't need to prove it's better than Cache, I believe you. But I just don't think it will end up as a power house on most boards, but it will be insane w/ herbalist and counterfeit.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #204 on: May 10, 2016, 08:10:14 am »
0

The main reason why I think Capital is definitely going to get purchased a lot more often than Contraband or Cache is that it's insane on your last turn. Insane enough that I bet it will get bought the turn before a lot of the time.
I'm agreeing that it will make it above the other lame $5 treasures. You don't need to prove it's better than Cache, I believe you. But I just don't think it will end up as a power house on most boards, but it will be insane w/ herbalist and counterfeit.

I don't think it's that much better with Counterfeit than it is without it. Counterfeit+Capital is decent value in terms of economy in the mid game where you have already trashed your junk Treasures but can't pull off a megaturn yet (they're essentially two $5 Treasures that give you +$4 and +1 buy each, since you get $13 and +3 buys total and you need to spend $5 and 1 buy to buy another Capital to replace the one you just trashed), but that's not amazing, that's just okay. It's better than "just okay" when you already have the Counterfeit (which is pretty often), but it's still not insane. It's insane on your last turn, because then you don't care about replacing the Capitals and so your Counterfeits will pretty much just act as extra Capitals but slightly better. But then you might as well have had more Capitals instead if Counterfeit wasn't present.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #205 on: May 10, 2016, 08:44:41 am »
0

This has probably been answered, but the thread is so long already.  ::)

The "cost" is like a 3rd resource (other than Coins and Potions) and should be treated as such.
But this still means we can Remodel a City Quarter into Royal Blacksmith, right?

Essentially, you can read them both as costing $0 P0 D8.
Also, a CQ can only be Swindled into a CQ or RB.

I sort of like how they're immune to shenanigans like Quarry/Bridge, etc.

Yes, you're right. This was my first thought and question within the first few replies.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #206 on: May 10, 2016, 10:07:51 am »
0

Because of that clause, I suspect that there will be some card that cares directly about how much debt you have or whether you have debt. Maybe something that multiplies opponents' debt. Otherwise paying off debt early would be unnecessary, since the next time you could buy a card, you could just pay off the debt then.

(Except Black Market, but that's hardly a reason for that whole line of text.)

I thought that at first, but the clause is also helpful if you don't need the full $6 from Capital.  As a simple case, suppose you only want to buy 2 Curses this turn for some reason.  You play Capital for the +Buy and don't need the $6 at all.  Without that clause, you are $6 in debt next turn.  The clause lets you pay off the debt immediately instead.  (I see Watno said this more succinctly than I did.)

I got it now! I had figured you could pay off the debt after your buy anyway. But you don't actually have the debt to pay off until you discard Capital, at which point you are done buying.

I still don't get it. Can't you just pay off your deck next turn before buying any cards? You can pay off debt both before and after buying cards, right?

And a question for Donald: Can you pay off debt at any time in-between buying cards in your Buy phase? Can you also pay off debt before/in-between playing Treasures, or just after you're done playing Treasures?

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #207 on: May 10, 2016, 10:10:38 am »
+3

I still don't get it. Can't you just pay off your deck next turn before buying any cards? You can pay off debt both before and after buying cards, right?

Yes, but it matters for, for instance, Black Market, or any hypothetical card that cares about how much Debt you have.  Also, you might want to use up any extra you have from this turn to start paying off debt now - I mean, what else are you going to do with it?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #208 on: May 10, 2016, 10:22:22 am »
+6


I still don't get it. Can't you just pay off your deck next turn before buying any cards? You can pay off debt both before and after buying cards, right?


Next turn you won't have whatever money you have sitting around this turn.... Let's say you have no money at all, and go to your buy phase. You play Capital. Now you have $6. You buy a Smithy. Now you have $2. When you discard Capital from play, you take 6 debt. You immediately pay off 2 of it with your leftover money. Now you have 4 debt.

Without that clause, you would start your next turn with 6 debt instead of 4, and you would have wasted $2 of the $6 that Capital gave you. Basically, the clause allows you to borrow any amount up to $6; without the clause you would have to borrow exactly $6.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #209 on: May 10, 2016, 10:43:44 am »
+4

Well, this is awkward. With the introduction of Debt, we will have to drop the tried-and-true complex number representation of costs and introduce SO(3) instead. I hope you've all been revising your Group Theory notebooks.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #210 on: May 10, 2016, 10:44:32 am »
+2

Well, this is awkward. With the introduction of Debt, we will have to drop the tried-and-true complex number representation of costs and introduce SO(3) instead. I hope you've all been revising your Group Theory notebooks.

Can't we just use quaternions?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #211 on: May 10, 2016, 10:52:56 am »
0

I just use [ # ] for debt. I don't think that's too bad, is it?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #212 on: May 10, 2016, 10:55:15 am »
+1

I just use [ # ] for debt. I don't think that's too bad, is it?

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #213 on: May 10, 2016, 11:01:02 am »
0

I just use [ # ] for debt. I don't think that's too bad, is it?

It's too bad because

Code: [Select]
[b][color=red][ # ][/color][/b]
is a lot of code to type.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #214 on: May 10, 2016, 11:03:51 am »
0

I just use [ # ] for debt. I don't think that's too bad, is it?

Poke at GendoIkari enough and he'll update his f.ds extension.

His f.ds extension does not work for Firefox, and I don't like using Google Chrome anymore because it's so bloated.

I just use [ # ] for debt. I don't think that's too bad, is it?

It's too bad because

Code: [Select]
[b][color=red][ # ][/color][/b]
is a lot of code to type.

#MillennialWoes
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #215 on: May 10, 2016, 11:09:07 am »
+3


 ___
/ 8 \
\___/


That's not too much code, right?

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #216 on: May 10, 2016, 11:11:09 am »
0

His f.ds extension does not work for Firefox, and I don't like using Google Chrome anymore because it's so bloated.

Those aren't the only two options, you know. Opera is way better, and Chrome extensions work on it.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #217 on: May 10, 2016, 11:22:55 am »
0

Well, this is awkward. With the introduction of Debt, we will have to drop the tried-and-true complex number representation of costs and introduce SO(3) instead. I hope you've all been revising your Group Theory notebooks.

Can't we just use quaternions?

That's one dimension too many. Unless you just accidentally revealed that you are privy to inside info on a future expansion...?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #218 on: May 10, 2016, 11:23:43 am »
0

I just use [ # ] for debt. I don't think that's too bad, is it?

Poke at GendoIkari enough and he'll update his f.ds extension.

I was just about to make a post in my extension thread about this; but figured I'd wait until I had more news. Anyway, I see the Wiki already has the images I need for 8-debt cost, thanks! The sad news is that at the moment, my hard-drive is sitting around existing as an image in a friend's data center; waiting until I get it cloned onto my new drive. Hopefully that will be very soon, and I'll be updating the extension as soon as I have those files again.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #219 on: May 10, 2016, 11:24:51 am »
0

I just use [ # ] for debt. I don't think that's too bad, is it?

Poke at GendoIkari enough and he'll update his f.ds extension.

His f.ds extension does not work for Firefox, and I don't like using Google Chrome anymore because it's so bloated.


I really want to get a Firefox version out there; but I haven't been able to find anyone who can help me port it; and my own attempts were not successful. But I'll keep trying (as soon as I get my computer back).
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #220 on: May 10, 2016, 11:28:15 am »
+1

And a question for Donald: Can you pay off debt at any time in-between buying cards in your Buy phase?

Yes.

Can you also pay off debt before/in-between playing Treasures, or just after you're done playing Treasures?

No, just after playing Treasures. Once you buy a card, buy an Event, or pay off debt, you cannot play any more Treasures this turn (barring Villa shenanigans).
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #221 on: May 10, 2016, 11:32:17 am »
0

And a question for Donald: Can you pay off debt at any time in-between buying cards in your Buy phase?

Yes.

Can you also pay off debt before/in-between playing Treasures, or just after you're done playing Treasures?

No, just after playing Treasures. Once you buy a card, buy an Event, or pay off debt, you cannot play any more Treasures this turn (barring Villa shenanigans).


Why is this? I was just about to post on the Wiki thread because the Wiki already says this, even though Donald didn't mention it in his OP.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 11:52:44 am by GendoIkari »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #222 on: May 10, 2016, 11:40:42 am »
0

And a question for Donald: Can you pay off debt at any time in-between buying cards in your Buy phase?

Yes.

Can you also pay off debt before/in-between playing Treasures, or just after you're done playing Treasures?

No, just after playing Treasures. Once you buy a card, buy an Event, or pay off debt, you cannot play any more Treasures this turn (barring Villa shenanigans).
Why is this? I was just about to post on the Wiki thread because the Wiki already says this, even though Donald didn't mention it in his OP.
Your quote is broken.  :)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #223 on: May 10, 2016, 11:42:06 am »
0

And a question for Donald: Can you pay off debt at any time in-between buying cards in your Buy phase?

Yes.

Can you also pay off debt before/in-between playing Treasures, or just after you're done playing Treasures?

No, just after playing Treasures. Once you buy a card, buy an Event, or pay off debt, you cannot play any more Treasures this turn (barring Villa shenanigans).

Why is this? I was just about to post on the Wiki thread because the Wiki already says this, even though Donald didn't mention it in his OP.

Why is it, from a game-design perspective? Not sure off the top of my head, and I'm too hungry to really give it much thought.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #224 on: May 10, 2016, 11:46:44 am »
0

Donald has mentioned it in a few other posts scattered about.  Not the reasoning behind it, just the ruling.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #225 on: May 10, 2016, 12:41:01 pm »
+4

Because of that clause, I suspect that there will be some card that cares directly about how much debt you have or whether you have debt. Maybe something that multiplies opponents' debt. Otherwise paying off debt early would be unnecessary, since the next time you could buy a card, you could just pay off the debt then.

(Except Black Market, but that's hardly a reason for that whole line of text.)

I thought that at first, but the clause is also helpful if you don't need the full $6 from Capital.  As a simple case, suppose you only want to buy 2 Curses this turn for some reason.  You play Capital for the +Buy and don't need the $6 at all.  Without that clause, you are $6 in debt next turn.  The clause lets you pay off the debt immediately instead.  (I see Watno said this more succinctly than I did.)

I got it now! I had figured you could pay off the debt after your buy anyway. But you don't actually have the debt to pay off until you discard Capital, at which point you are done buying.

I still don't get it. Can't you just pay off your deck next turn before buying any cards? You can pay off debt both before and after buying cards, right?

And a question for Donald: Can you pay off debt at any time in-between buying cards in your Buy phase? Can you also pay off debt before/in-between playing Treasures, or just after you're done playing Treasures?

I thought my example was clear.  It's why I posted it even though Watno already answered.  I deleted most of my other replies while reading through all the comments if others had already said the same thing, but left that one because the example was new. >_>



Re: how to represent debt, I'd like to suggest using angle brackets.  They approximate a hex shape, with the top and bottom implied.  <8>
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #226 on: May 10, 2016, 12:49:52 pm »
+4

I use parentheses to represent debt. (8)

Crap that doesn't work here.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #227 on: May 10, 2016, 12:55:26 pm »
+3

And a question for Donald: Can you pay off debt at any time in-between buying cards in your Buy phase?

Yes.

Can you also pay off debt before/in-between playing Treasures, or just after you're done playing Treasures?

No, just after playing Treasures. Once you buy a card, buy an Event, or pay off debt, you cannot play any more Treasures this turn (barring Villa shenanigans).


Why is this? I was just about to post on the Wiki thread because the Wiki already says this, even though Donald didn't mention it in his OP.
There were early cards along the lines of Grand Market and Mint, that made it matter whether or not you could play Treasures after buying cards. I don't really remember the details but as you can see decided that you couldn't.

Then with coin tokens and Debt, I just wanted rules that slotted in easily into the existing framework.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #228 on: May 10, 2016, 12:56:52 pm »
+2

I use parentheses to represent debt. (8)

Crap that doesn't work here.

It can, just disable smilies in your reply (under "Attachments and other options")

(8)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #229 on: May 10, 2016, 01:15:05 pm »
0

I use parentheses to represent debt. (8)

Crap that doesn't work here.

It can, just disable smilies in your reply (under "Attachments and other options")

(8)

Thanks!
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #230 on: May 10, 2016, 01:26:07 pm »
+3

I use parentheses to represent debt. (8)

Crap that doesn't work here.

It can, just disable smilies in your reply (under "Attachments and other options")

(8)

(8) 8)

I think I prefer angle brackets though.  I don't want to disable emoticons or input the extra code.  I'll switch if the community decides on parentheses as the standard though.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 01:27:40 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #231 on: May 10, 2016, 01:32:57 pm »
+1

How about a D

D8
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #232 on: May 10, 2016, 03:56:57 pm »
+1

Square brackets are classy.

[8] looks much better than (8) or D8.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #233 on: May 10, 2016, 03:59:07 pm »
0

Or you could just, you know, do

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #234 on: May 10, 2016, 04:00:54 pm »
0

Or you could just, you know, do



Yes, I could copy the image link, paste it into the forum reply, surround that image link with an img code, surround all of that with sub code, and then submit that cluttered mess when everyone already knows what I mean by using square brackets in the first place.

<8> could also potentially work, but again, I like the square brackets a whole lot more.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #235 on: May 10, 2016, 05:18:04 pm »
+3

<8> could also potentially work, but again, I like the square brackets a whole lot more.

I'd rather reserve square brackets for the next expansion, which will feature blue squares.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #236 on: May 11, 2016, 12:25:38 pm »
0

Can you also pay off debt before/in-between playing Treasures, or just after you're done playing Treasures?

No, just after playing Treasures. Once you buy a card, buy an Event, or pay off debt, you cannot play any more Treasures this turn (barring Villa shenanigans).

Why is this? I was just about to post on the Wiki thread because the Wiki already says this, even though Donald didn't mention it in his OP.

Why is it, from a game-design perspective? Not sure off the top of my head, and I'm too hungry to really give it much thought.
I'm struggling to think of any circumstance in which it would make any difference whether you paid off debt between playing two Treasures, or played all the Treasures you wanted to then paid off the debt.

(You can still gain while in debt, so you don't need to pay it off before playing Horn of Plenty, for example.)
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #237 on: May 11, 2016, 09:36:42 pm »
+3

I am thinking that you will often pay more than the printed cost to get one of these. If, for example, you pay 4$ on the turn you get Royal Blacksmith, and then you get 5$ or 6$ on the next turn, then you will only be left with 1$ or 2$ after paying the remaining debt, which you will be unlikely to use to buy anything*. The end result will be that you spent 9$ or 10$ (and, in a sense, two buys) to get that Blacksmith.

Of course, you still have the option to wait until you actually get 8$ in a given turn, but, you know, something to keep in mind.

*Or you could BUY ANOTHER BLACKSMITH OH YEAH FINANCE YOUR DEBT WITH MORE DEBT BABY
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #238 on: May 11, 2016, 10:25:00 pm »
+1

A neat trick is to spend all your money on non-debt cards and then use an extra buy to get a debt card.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #239 on: May 12, 2016, 08:23:12 pm »
+1

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #240 on: May 12, 2016, 08:26:18 pm »
0

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?
I would be shocked if the answer is yes. I believe it's "cost in coins".
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #241 on: May 12, 2016, 08:27:01 pm »
+2

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?
I would be shocked if the answer is yes. I believe it's "cost in coins".

But you can overpay for Stonemason with Potion.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #242 on: May 12, 2016, 08:28:05 pm »
0

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?
I would be shocked if the answer is yes. I believe it's "cost in coins".

But you can overpay for Stonemason with Potion.

But you're not really paying in Debt.  You're taking a card for free, essentially, and taking on Debt.  It may as well have cost and had "when you buy this, take so much Debt".

Also, if what you're proposing were allowed, it would lead to weird cases where you could overpay in Debt, but not actually get anything.  You could potentially overpay by infinite Debt if you wanted to.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 08:29:34 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #243 on: May 12, 2016, 08:29:11 pm »
0

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

The wording seems to indicate that you can:
Quote
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Actions each costing the amount you overpaid.

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #244 on: May 12, 2016, 08:29:39 pm »
+3

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

Yes, this is legal.

Haha, turns out I am a total liar. Gotcha!
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 09:20:52 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #245 on: May 12, 2016, 08:30:12 pm »
+1

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?
I would be shocked if the answer is yes. I believe it's "cost in coins".

But you can overpay for Stonemason with Potion.

But you're not really paying in Debt.  You're taking a card for free, essentially, and taking on Debt.  It may as well have cost and had "when you buy this, take so much Debt".

Also, if what you're proposing were allowed, it would lead to weird cases where you could overpay in Debt, but not actually get anything.  You could potentially overpay by infinite Debt if you wanted to.

So I suppose the question is not really "How does Stonemason work?" but "Can you overpay Debt?"

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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #246 on: May 12, 2016, 08:31:08 pm »
0

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

Yes, this is legal.

But you don't buy the cards there, why do you have debt?
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #247 on: May 12, 2016, 08:31:29 pm »
+1

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

Yes, this is legal.

What, seriously?  Again, based on the wording of Overpay cards, you could overpay by an infinite amount of Debt.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #248 on: May 12, 2016, 08:31:43 pm »
0

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

Yes, this is legal.

But you don't buy the cards there, why do you have debt?

I don't understand your question.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #249 on: May 12, 2016, 08:32:44 pm »
+4

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

Yes, this is legal.

What, seriously?  Again, based on the wording of Overpay cards, you could overpay by an infinite amount of Debt.

Correct. In the case you overpay by e.g. 1000 debt, I recommend using grains of rice for substitute debt tokens.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #250 on: May 12, 2016, 08:33:11 pm »
+3

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

Yes, this is legal.

What, seriously?  Again, based on the wording of Overpay cards, you could overpay by an infinite amount of Debt.

Correct. In the case you overpay by e.g. 1000 debt, I recommend using grains of rice for substitute debt tokens.

All of a sudden I'm very glad MF is never implementing Empires.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #251 on: May 12, 2016, 08:33:24 pm »
+1

So are you allowed to overpay just $1 and take on $7 debt??
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #252 on: May 12, 2016, 08:34:45 pm »
0

Maybe someone has already asked this, but can you overpay for Stonemason with Debt? Like I can get a Stonemason, a City Quarter, and a Royal Blacksmith for $2 now and $8 later?

Yes, this is legal.

What, seriously?  Again, based on the wording of Overpay cards, you could overpay by an infinite amount of Debt.

Correct. In the case you overpay by e.g. 1000 debt, I recommend using grains of rice for substitute debt tokens.

All of a sudden I'm very glad MF is never implementing Empires.

Even if they tried, it wouldn't be ready by the end of the year.
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Re: Empires Previews #1: Debt
« Reply #253 on: May 12, 2016, 08:35:04 pm »
0