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Polk5440

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2016, 07:56:54 am »
+1

Polk5440, I would also mention that Victory piles only have 8 cards in 2p :)


Also, but this is quite minor, the rules for including Ruins and Potions and whatnot are "in the game", rather than "in the Kingdom", to account for Black Market.

Added the 2p victory card count. You second point is completely correct, and I think that can be handled either as special setup with Black Market (which is what I was imagining) or explicitly in the sections as you suggested, doesn't matter to me.

The main suggestion of that post is really just to reorganize the sections.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 08:01:52 am by Polk5440 »
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Jeebus

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2016, 11:59:57 am »
0

"Objective of the Game" section: Donald's pithier version in the original rules strikes me as better. I would stick closer to that model. If you want to talk about the phases of the game, maybe something shorter like this would work better:
The thing is that all that info in the beginning helps people understand all the basics of the game mechanics, which in my experience teaching games is key. After that I go into all the details, but if all they know is the general stuff you wrote, they will have problems putting it into context. But I might split the section into two: first a very general description à la what you wrote, then more about the mechanics.

Page 3. I think you should define kingdom cards rather than refer to the actual rule books. I think which cards are "kingdom cards" is the only thing in which you defer to the actual rule book.

The Card Reference (pages 30-52) can be split into Kingdom Cards and Other Cards (alphabetical within each section). Then you can define kingdom cards by all the cards listed in the Kingdom Cards section of the document.
As there is no definition of "Kingdom card", outside of just listing them all, that's a good solution. My thinking was that when you play the game, you need to follow the rulebook for the sets you have in order to find the Kingdom cards to shuffle together. You're not going to follow a master list of Kingdom cards. Also, splitting it means that in order to look up a card in the Card Reference, you have to know whether it's Kingdom card. I'll think about this one.

Edit: Actually this made me realize that you can define them a follows: They are all cards except base cards and cards that say “this is not in the supply”.

Setup Sections:
I think the Basic Setup and Special Setup sections can be combined, integrating rules from the expansions better by having the subsections not be the expansions, but the type of setup required. I think this would make it a lot more readable and be more consistent with the rest of the document.
The reason for separating into Basic and Special Setup is that players may not have all the expansions. I think that's really important and the reason it's more readable the way it is. It really will be quite bloated (and more so for each expansion released) to include all setup for each expansion together with the basic setup. This is particularly true if players are learning the game. I rephrased some sections according to your suggestions though.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 12:25:42 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2016, 12:48:53 pm »
0

Edit: Actually this made me realize that you can define them a follows: They are all cards except base cards and cards that say “this is not in the supply”.


How are "base cards" defined here? Potion, Ruins, Colony, Platinum, and Shelters are all not Kingdom Cards, and I don't know if they are "base cards" or not.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2016, 02:11:28 pm »
0

How are "base cards" defined here? Potion, Ruins, Colony, Platinum, and Shelters are all not Kingdom Cards, and I don't know if they are "base cards" or not.
Good question. In the section "Base cards" I define Potion, Colony and Platinum as base cards, and add: "In Dark Ages there are Ruins cards, which can be seen as base cards too, and Shelter cards, which do not belong to any pile."

The new definition will be: Kingdom cards are all cards except: Base cards and Shelters (see above), and cards that say “this is not in the supply”.

Polk5440

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2016, 04:27:51 pm »
+1

Comments on II. Basic Game Rules, p.8-10.

I like how this section references you to later sections/appendices for more details.

I would split these three pages from the rest of the section and make p.11 ("Terms used on cards") through the end of the section (p.22) its own section (a new section III), because by the time you read to page 11, you have reached the end of the game. Players could at this point put down the rules and attempt to play a game of Dominion. The rest fills in the details.

Other suggestions:
-- Swap paragraphs 2 and 3 of "A - Action phase". This way the section ends with "If your Action pool is now empty, then you are done with your Action phase."
-- As mentioned by someone else, the Bridge Troll example on p. 8 doesn't match too well with what is going on in the text. Nowhere in these few pages do you reference "play ability", "start-of-turn ability (set up)", or "while-in-play and during-your-turn state". You simply reference later sections. This example should be there in those sections.
-- You do mention Action pool, money pool, and buy pool on p. 8 and have an example in the text referring to "+1 Action, +2 Actions, etc.". I expected the picture to relate to this.
-- p. 9, first sentence of "B -- Buy Phase", I would add the clause "one at a time".
-- I would swap last two paragraphs of "B - Buy phase" so the paragraph ends with "If your buy pool is now empty, you are done with your Buy phase".
-- Again, the Quarry example seems out of place. You do not talk about "Play ability" or "while-in-play state" here, but you do talk about producing coins and extra buys in the text.
-- p. 9 "C - Clean-up phase" says "Discard all the cards in play" but Duration cards or Throne Room on Durations which are not completely resolved are not actually discarded. Not sure how best to word this, but maybe something like "Discard all the cards in play (see LOCATIONS IN THE GAME: PLAY AREA -- "IN PLAY") which have been completely resolved (see DURATION CARDS) and all of the cards left in your hand."
-- It would be nice if the play mat picture on page 8 was on a page with the subsection "Locations in the game".
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Polk5440

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2016, 04:28:32 pm »
+1

p.11-22 Basic Game Rules

-- I would separate into a new section III (as mentioned above).
-- I would swap the subsections "Playing a card (Action or Treasure)" and "Terms used on cards".
-- p. 14 "Gaining a card" subsection: I would move the first sentence "Buying a card results in gaining it" to the end of the subsection.

p. 22-26 Overviews and Summaries

-- I am not sure what the subsection "Overview of ability triggers" is doing. Is it just a tabulation of the text on the cards? If so, I would strike the whole subsection or combine it with the previous subsections "Basic timing rules" and "Advanced timing rules".
-- Similar comment regarding the subsection "Overview of state timers".
-- The subsections "Summary of your turn", "Summary of player activities", "Summary of timing rules", and "Common mistakes" are the highlights of the entire document to me. I really like them and feel they are all that is needed in the Overviews and Summaries section.

This is the end of the suggestions from me. Hope they help.
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Jeebus

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2016, 11:27:47 pm »
+1

Thanks for all your suggestions! I finally have some time to work on this again.

Comments on II. Basic Game Rules, p.8-10.

I like how this section references you to later sections/appendices for more details.

I would split these three pages from the rest of the section and make p.11 ("Terms used on cards") through the end of the section (p.22) its own section (a new section III), because by the time you read to page 11, you have reached the end of the game. Players could at this point put down the rules and attempt to play a game of Dominion. The rest fills in the details.

This is an interesting suggestion. I like the idea, but I'm not sure how to implement it in a good way. The thing is that those pages also contain a lot of details, and some stuff in the later pages are essential before starting to play (like in "Timing of concurrent abilities or effects" it says essentially that Curses etc are given in turn order). I'm really considering making a new Section II with "Essential game rules" though. The problem is that I'll repeat a lot of stuff, because it should still be in the new Section III... Another possibility would be to keep everything as is but highlight the essential rules somehow.

Other suggestions:
-- Swap paragraphs 2 and 3 of "A - Action phase". This way the section ends with "If your Action pool is now empty, then you are done with your Action phase."

Thanks, I've changed this.

-- As mentioned by someone else, the Bridge Troll example on p. 8 doesn't match too well with what is going on in the text. Nowhere in these few pages do you reference "play ability", "start-of-turn ability (set up)", or "while-in-play and during-your-turn state". You simply reference later sections. This example should be there in those sections.
-- You do mention Action pool, money pool, and buy pool on p. 8 and have an example in the text referring to "+1 Action, +2 Actions, etc.". I expected the picture to relate to this.

-- Again, the Quarry example seems out of place. You do not talk about "Play ability" or "while-in-play state" here, but you do talk about producing coins and extra buys in the text.

Yeah, thanks for the reminder. I've decided to have simpler cards in this section, and then see if the Quarry and Bridge Troll can go somewhere else or are unnecessary.

-- p. 9, first sentence of "B -- Buy Phase", I would add the clause "one at a time".

I feel that sentence and the next make that very clear...

-- I would swap last two paragraphs of "B - Buy phase" so the paragraph ends with "If your buy pool is now empty, you are done with your Buy phase".

Changed this.

-- p. 9 "C - Clean-up phase" says "Discard all the cards in play" but Duration cards or Throne Room on Durations which are not completely resolved are not actually discarded. Not sure how best to word this, but maybe something like "Discard all the cards in play (see LOCATIONS IN THE GAME: PLAY AREA -- "IN PLAY") which have been completely resolved (see DURATION CARDS) and all of the cards left in your hand."

Good idea, I've added a reference to Durations here, in small text.

-- It would be nice if the play mat picture on page 8 was on a page with the subsection "Locations in the game".

Hmm, I'll think about it.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2016, 11:32:42 pm »
+1

-- I would swap the subsections "Playing a card (Action or Treasure)" and "Terms used on cards".

Good idea, done.

-- p. 14 "Gaining a card" subsection: I would move the first sentence "Buying a card results in gaining it" to the end of the subsection.

Also done.

p. 22-26 Overviews and Summaries

-- I am not sure what the subsection "Overview of ability triggers" is doing. Is it just a tabulation of the text on the cards? If so, I would strike the whole subsection or combine it with the previous subsections "Basic timing rules" and "Advanced timing rules".
-- Similar comment regarding the subsection "Overview of state timers".
-- The subsections "Summary of your turn", "Summary of player activities", "Summary of timing rules", and "Common mistakes" are the highlights of the entire document to me. I really like them and feel they are all that is needed in the Overviews and Summaries section.

I was hoping the intro to "Overview of ability triggers" tells you exactly what it does. It's about timing. It tells you when those abilities trigger, so you know when stuff trigger at the same time. The "state timers" are a little more fuzzy, but I felt I needed them to cover everything, because they don't fit the definition of triggered ability.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2016, 04:10:43 pm »
+1

"Objective of the Game" section: Donald's pithier version in the original rules strikes me as better. I would stick closer to that model. If you want to talk about the phases of the game, maybe something shorter like this would work better:

Quote
This is a game of building a deck of cards. It contains actions you can take, treasures which earn you income, and the victories which show how much better you are than that other guy to the west. Your deck starts out not able to do much, but you hope by the end of the game it will be brimming with Provinces.

On your turn you may play an action from your hand, play your treasures to buy better cards for your deck, then discard and draw a new hand of cards. When your draw pile runs dry, you shuffle both your old and new cards together to form a new draw pile, thus playing through your steadily improving deck again and again as the game continues.

The player with the most victory points at game end wins.

I ended up using some of your phrases here, in a new, short "intro" to the "Objective of the game" section:

In Dominion you build your own deck of cards while playing the game. Your deck contains the actions you can take, treasures that earn you income, and property that might give you the victory. On your turn you may play an Action card, play Treasures, buy a card, and then discard and draw a new hand of cards. When your draw pile runs dry, you shuffle both your old and new cards together to form a new draw pile, thus playing through your steadily improving deck again and again as the game continues.

I hope it's okay, otherwise I'll rephrase. :)

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2016, 10:58:46 am »
+3

Now I'm finally done with version 2. As well as incorporating Empires, I did several major changes and many more smaller changes.

Complete Rules for Dominion and All Its Expansions

As before, I appreciate all feedback, especially about any mistakes, inconsistencies or things that are written in an unclear or confusing way. And thanks to everybody who gave feedback before!

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2016, 10:59:26 am »
0

The direct link I gave previously now gets you the new version. But please go to BGG and thumb the file page if you're at all able to, to help it be more visible.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2016, 11:48:42 am »
0

You state that Teacher tokens can be put on the Gladiator/Fortune pile even if Fortune is the top card; I was under the impression this could only be done if the top card was an Action.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2016, 12:38:19 pm »
+2

You state that Teacher tokens can be put on the Gladiator/Fortune pile even if Fortune is the top card; I was under the impression this could only be done if the top card was an Action.

From the rulebook: "Some cards refer to the cost or types of a pile as if it is just one card. In these cases go with what is on the Randomizer card, which usually matches the top card."
So it's the pile as a whole that has a type and a cost. Teacher puts a token on an "Action Supply pile".

(This is also why, for instance, the Knight pile doesn't get a Trade Route token even though Dame Josephine is on top.)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 12:40:08 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2016, 03:46:36 pm »
+1

p. 6: Describing the number of curses used in a game, the word addition is used instead of additional.
Quote
Add another 10 to the pile for each addition player.

p. 11: Open information to all players: the following additional words are incorrectly purple after the first instance of the word trash: and t

p. 11: when describing scoring at the bottom of the page, curses are not mentioned.

Throughout the document, small text appears as meaningless rectangles unless italicized.

Will edit as more formatting mistakes are found
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 04:01:37 pm by Doom_Shark »
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2016, 04:19:25 pm »
0

p. 6: Describing the number of curses used in a game, the word addition is used instead of additional.
Quote
Add another 10 to the pile for each addition player.

p. 11: Open information to all players: the following additional words are incorrectly purple after the first instance of the word trash: and t

p. 11: when describing scoring at the bottom of the page, curses are not mentioned.

Throughout the document, small text appears as meaningless rectangles unless italicized.

Will edit as more formatting mistakes are found

Thanks! It's great to identify and be able to fix these small mistakes.

When it comes to your last comment, about small text, I can't see it. Can you give me a page number, or maybe even a screen capture?

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2016, 04:52:56 pm »
0

p. 6: Describing the number of curses used in a game, the word addition is used instead of additional.
Quote
Add another 10 to the pile for each addition player.

p. 11: Open information to all players: the following additional words are incorrectly purple after the first instance of the word trash: and t

p. 11: when describing scoring at the bottom of the page, curses are not mentioned.

Throughout the document, small text appears as meaningless rectangles unless italicized.

Will edit as more formatting mistakes are found

Thanks! It's great to identify and be able to fix these small mistakes.

When it comes to your last comment, about small text, I can't see it. Can you give me a page number, or maybe even a screen capture?
Not easily, as I have been going through this on my phone, and it appears sporadically throughout the entire document. It may be just my phone. Will check on my computer later to verify.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2016, 09:03:56 pm »
+2

Great document.  I've already found a couple interactions that I don't think I was aware of the proper way to play.

In addition...

p. 8:  I didn't see anything in the document about 2-player Colony/Platinum games only needing 8 Colonies.  I expected to see it in the paragraph about determining whether to include Colony/Platinum.

p. 8:  Jack of all Dominion hasn't been updated for Empires and multiple attempts to contact the Dev have been unsuccessful.  It's a great app otherwise, but I don't know that I would make it the documented app.  Kingdom Shuffler has Empires and more features than JoaD.  It has replaced JoaD as my shuffler of choice and would make a good replacement for your document were you so inclined.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2016, 09:06:26 pm »
0

p. 6: Describing the number of curses used in a game, the word addition is used instead of additional.
Quote
Add another 10 to the pile for each addition player.

p. 11: Open information to all players: the following additional words are incorrectly purple after the first instance of the word trash: and t

p. 11: when describing scoring at the bottom of the page, curses are not mentioned.

Throughout the document, small text appears as meaningless rectangles unless italicized.

Will edit as more formatting mistakes are found

Thanks! It's great to identify and be able to fix these small mistakes.

When it comes to your last comment, about small text, I can't see it. Can you give me a page number, or maybe even a screen capture?
Not easily, as I have been going through this on my phone, and it appears sporadically throughout the entire document. It may be just my phone. Will check on my computer later to verify.

OK, looks like it was just my phone. weird...
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2016, 10:40:34 am »
0

Great document.  I've already found a couple interactions that I don't think I was aware of the proper way to play.

In addition...

p. 8:  I didn't see anything in the document about 2-player Colony/Platinum games only needing 8 Colonies.  I expected to see it in the paragraph about determining whether to include Colony/Platinum.

Good call. It says "all Victory piles" under Basic Setup, but it should be mentioned under Prosperity setup too.

p. 8:  Jack of all Dominion hasn't been updated for Empires and multiple attempts to contact the Dev have been unsuccessful.  It's a great app otherwise, but I don't know that I would make it the documented app.  Kingdom Shuffler has Empires and more features than JoaD.  It has replaced JoaD as my shuffler of choice and would make a good replacement for your document were you so inclined.

Agh. This is why I didn't want to mention any app at all. Should have followed my instinct.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2016, 08:17:07 pm »
0

p. 8:  Jack of all Dominion hasn't been updated for Empires and multiple attempts to contact the Dev have been unsuccessful.  It's a great app otherwise, but I don't know that I would make it the documented app.  Kingdom Shuffler has Empires and more features than JoaD.  It has replaced JoaD as my shuffler of choice and would make a good replacement for your document were you so inclined.
Agh. This is why I didn't want to mention any app at all. Should have followed my instinct.

Yeah, I think your instinct was right.  Unless you feel like regularly scouring the web to identify (and update your document to reflect) new, updated, out-of-date and abandoned shufflers (which, even if you did, potentially opens a whole new can of worms with regard to documenting features and bugs), I think just mentioning that such shufflers exist is the best option.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2016, 10:13:27 pm »
0

I made a minor version update. Version 2.1 is now up.

Complete Rules for Dominion and All Its Expansions

It has a few small corrections, plus hyperlinks added to "common effects" all through the Card reference. See the description on BGG for more details.

I don't expect to make another version until the next expansion.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2016, 10:27:05 am »
0

Well, I did make another version even though there was no new expansion. 14 new cards is like a mini expansion though. So, version 3 is up now.

Complete Rules for Dominion and All Its Expansions

If you for some weird reason don't have a BGG account and don't want one, you can get it from the link posted earlier in this thread.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2016, 10:59:43 am »
0

When did the Throne Room + Duration rule get changed? Is there a thread here where it happened?
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2016, 07:17:25 pm »
0

When did the Throne Room + Duration rule get changed? Is there a thread here where it happened?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15668.msg632744#msg632744

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2016, 11:02:30 pm »
+2

Some grammar, formatting, and other suggestions:
1) pg. 2, paragraph 1, grammar: "To start playing, you should read chapter I, and the paragraphs..." The comma after the word "and" is unnecessary and ultimately interrupts the flow of the sentence

2) pg. 2, paragraph 1, word choice: ...and the necessary sections of COMPONENTS OF THE GAME and SPECIAL SETUP according to yourif you have any relevant expansions...Check chapter III if you're playing withusing cards from theany relevant expansions

3) pg. 2, paragraph 2, word choice: If you already know how to play Dominion...Chapters II and III giveprovide more details

4) pg. 2, paragraph 6, grammar: So do terms with an initial capital letter
Alternatively: So do terms with initial capital letters
I think the first sounds more professional, though either is acceptable.

5) pg. 2, paragraph 8, is unnecessary, as the indented text is explained in the last paragraph of pg. 1.

6) pg. 2, under published games, word choice: Dominion (here calledreferred to as Base game)

7) pg. 2, when describing expansion symbols, "expansion" should probably be used instead of "set." Also, within the parentheses, there should be a comma following the word "Additionally"

8 ) pg. 3, paragraph 2, formatting: the symbol and the words "Victory points" should switch locations, so that the sentence would read: The winner is the player who has the most victory points () at the end of the game. This also applies when introducing VP tokens and the coin symbol.

9) pg. 3, paragraph 4, word choice: You mostlyusually start your turn...

10) pg. 3, paragraph 4, formatting: you forgot to color an instance of the word "deck" in the last sentence.

11) pg. 3, paragraph 5, formatting: the word "Supply" should be purple, as it has a definition according to the rules of dominion

12) pg. 3, paragraph 6, clarification: you should specify that the shuffled cards are added to the bottom of your deck

13)pg. 3, paragraph 6, formatting: the following words should be purple in the last sentence: deck, opponent (actually unsure about this one), turn, deck (again)

14: pg. 3, Components of the game, Cards, Base cards, paragraph 2: There are also basic Treasure and Victory cards in Prosperity, - Platinum and Colony - and a basic Treasures in Alchemy: namely Potion
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