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Jeebus

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Introducing a new rules document
« on: May 07, 2016, 10:37:05 am »
+28

I'm finally done with my massive rules document, which is partially based on the rules FAQ I made on BGG. This is the new document:

Complete Rules for Dominion and All Its Expansions

I appreciate all feedback, especially about any mistakes, inconsistencies or things that are written in an unclear or confusing way. I wanted to make a document that is understandable to the average gamer and at the same time has all the rules written completely unambiguously. (It was not easy.) This is not a compilation of official rulebooks, as I mostly rewrote stuff. I tried to generalize rules, so that for instance the card descriptions don't have to repeat every mechanic. They still do restate confusing stuff though.

I managed to release it before Empires. :) When that comes out, I have to do a major overhaul of course.

Chris is me

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2016, 11:16:11 am »
+1

This is fantastic and thorough; you're the best.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2016, 03:38:20 pm »
+2

It feels a bit awkward to use non-basic cards like Bridge Troll and Quarry is the basic introduction to the phases section. Then again, perhaps you did that on purpose so that people don't see Quarry later and wonder if it works the same as a Silver in terms of playing treasure.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2016, 03:41:13 pm »
0

60 pages, wow.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2016, 03:47:57 pm »
+1

60 pages, wow.

There are only 10 Pages.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2016, 04:07:27 pm »
+1

You have a line "Six promo cards are released as of 2015:" that is followed by the list of six promo cards and the promo event.  Presumably you would do best to insert "One promo event hsa been released as of 2015:" before the promo event.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2016, 04:10:22 pm »
+2

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2016, 04:56:03 pm »
+2

Very nice!

Some feedback:
  • In "Abilities between turns" you mention "Between turns, the player who last had a turn is considered to be the current player, and so will resolve between-turn abilities first." It is perhaps good to mention that he also gets to choose which ability is resolved first, if there are multiple abilities which he should resolve. Also, you might want to explicitly mention that at this moment this player is not possessed (even if he was possessed during the last turn), so he makes the choice himself. (After writing this I noticed that this is explained in the Possession reference, but I still think it should be included here as well)
  • About the lose track rule: you might want to mention that shuffling your deck will cause every ability to lose track of every card in your deck (even if the top card happens to be still the top card after shuffling). Now that I say this, I actually have a rule question myself: is this also true if your deck consists of only 1 card? So if I have 1 card in my deck, and I shuffle my deck, will abilities lose track of that card in your deck?
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Jeebus

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2016, 10:51:51 am »
0

It feels a bit awkward to use non-basic cards like Bridge Troll and Quarry is the basic introduction to the phases section. Then again, perhaps you did that on purpose so that people don't see Quarry later and wonder if it works the same as a Silver in terms of playing treasure.
You might be right, and I'll look into that for the next version. The thing was that I wanted those two cards to be in there. I first chose a bunch of cards to represent the most common mechanics, and then placed them around the document in places that seemed good. I didn't need a simple Action and Treasure card, because those simple mechanics are represented by several of the other cards anyway. But then of course it creates the situation you're talking about...
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 12:00:58 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2016, 12:23:19 pm »
+1

Some feedback:
Just to restate this here, since it was moved to the thread about your shuffle question:
Thanks for your feedback! I'll make some of these changes for the next version.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2016, 03:03:19 pm »
+7

And of course, this document is immediately made obsolete by the first round of previews...
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2016, 05:37:49 pm »
+2

And of course, this document is immediately made obsolete by the first round of previews...
As stated in my OP! :)

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2016, 01:10:37 pm »
+2

Would it be possible to post it somewhere it can be downloaded by someone without a BGG login?
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2016, 02:18:24 pm »
+4

Would it be possible to post it somewhere it can be downloaded by someone without a BGG login?
Sure.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 09:13:00 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2016, 02:19:53 pm »
0

Would it be possible to post it somewhere it can be downloaded by someone without a BGG login?
Sure.

Thanks!
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2016, 04:52:06 pm »
+1

p31: Band of Misfits describes how it works if it gets trashed with Transmute while it's imitating a card. I don't believe there's currently any way for Transmute (which trashes from your hand) to trash a Band of Misfits that's imitating something (and which must therefore be in play), so there should be no need to mention that.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2016, 06:13:58 pm »
0

p31: Band of Misfits describes how it works if it gets trashed with Transmute while it's imitating a card. I don't believe there's currently any way for Transmute (which trashes from your hand) to trash a Band of Misfits that's imitating something (and which must therefore be in play), so there should be no need to mention that.
You're right, thanks. That ruling about Transmute applies to Inherited Estates, but is irrelevant for BoM.

Polk5440

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2016, 10:41:42 am »
+1

Nice job! I've started reading this; not through with it, yet. Here's my nit-picky comments so far.
  • All section titles should be capitalized.
  • pages 6-7: Selection of Shelters or Colonies should be done based on the proportion of cards in the kingdom, not the supply (we don't include basic treasure or basic victory cards in that determination).
  • page 7: Give an example of a set up app that is current through Adventures.

Reading this did bring up a rules question that is not clear to me:
Suppose Young Witch is chosen for the kingdom. Is the bane counted when determining whether to include Colonies or Shelters? It is a kingdom card, but not one of the original 10 selected. For example, suppose you have Young Witch, Monument, Goons, and 7 other cards from Dominion (base set). Trade Route is chosen as the bane. Should the chance of Colonies being included be 2/10 or 3/11? Similar question for the case with Shelters.

As far as your goal for this document:
Quote
I wanted to make a document that is understandable to the average gamer and at the same time has all the rules written completely unambiguously.
I will try to write up some style comments sometime, as well, which of course you can take or leave. I don't think the document completely succeeds in being more understandable to the average gamer than simply appending all the rule books and rulings together.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2016, 02:21:40 pm »
+1

Nice job! I've started reading this; not through with it, yet. Here's my nit-picky comments so far.
Thanks!

Quote
All section titles should be capitalized.
I know about this very common style custom in English, but I don't think it's a requirement, and I think it's clearer to just capitalize the words that are normally capitalized.

Quote
pages 6-7: Selection of Shelters or Colonies should be done based on the proportion of cards in the kingdom, not the supply (we don't include basic treasure or basic victory cards in that determination).
You're right. I don't like to use the word "kingdom" there though, because it's not clear that that only includes kingdom cards. I could define it, but instead I'll just write "among the kingdom cards".

Quote
page 7: Give an example of a set up app that is current through Adventures.
Hmm. Do I have to? Those things come and go, and which one is better and more current at any time. I didn't see it as the job of this document to promote one in particular either.

Quote
Reading this did bring up a rules question that is not clear to me:
Suppose Young Witch is chosen for the kingdom. Is the bane counted when determining whether to include Colonies or Shelters? It is a kingdom card, but not one of the original 10 selected. For example, suppose you have Young Witch, Monument, Goons, and 7 other cards from Dominion (base set). Trade Route is chosen as the bane. Should the chance of Colonies being included be 2/10 or 3/11? Similar question for the case with Shelters.
Based on the suggested method, "go by the first/last card drawn", the bane is not counted. I think that's correct. I'm not sure if Donald has said something somewhere.
I see that it's a little unclear in my document, because of the order of the special setup rules. I'll fix that.

Quote
As far as your goal for this document:
Quote
I wanted to make a document that is understandable to the average gamer and at the same time has all the rules written completely unambiguously.
I will try to write up some style comments sometime, as well, which of course you can take or leave. I don't think the document completely succeeds in being more understandable to the average gamer than simply appending all the rule books and rulings together.
Yeah, I know that part's the biggest difficulty. Appending all the rulebooks and online rulings together would not be very clear though, since there are contradictions between them, some mistakes, and imprecise language... So I'm fairly confident it's at least more understandable than doing that, even to the average gamer. But I appreciate any tips to improve it!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 02:19:47 pm by Jeebus »
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Polk5440

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2016, 03:00:20 pm »
+1

Quote
page 7: Give an example of a set up app that is current through Adventures.
Hmm. Do I have to? Those things come and go, and which one is better and more current at any time. I didn't see it as the job of this document to promote one in particular either.

I suggested this because I am not familiar with any and would like to know of one that implements things correctly. Alternatively, you can delete the whole section or make it a one sentence small text note, as it is not actually part of the rules.

Quote
Based on the suggested method, "go by the first/last card drawn", the bane is not counted. I think that's correct.

That is also my understanding, but reading the way you wrote the rules had me second guessing and I could not verify 100% looking at the Prosperity and Cornucopia rule books.

Quote
I appreciate any tips to improve it!

More comments will be forthcoming, then!
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2016, 03:26:51 pm »
+3

Quote
page 7: Give an example of a set up app that is current through Adventures.
Hmm. Do I have to? Those things come and go, and which one is better and more current at any time. I didn't see it as the job of this document to promote one in particular either.

I suggested this because I am not familiar with any and would like to know of one that implements things correctly. Alternatively, you can delete the whole section or make it a one sentence small text note, as it is not actually part of the rules.

Jack of All Dominion is the best. I think it's just on Android, but it's wonderful and would deserve to be promoted in this rulebook.

Polk5440

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2016, 05:34:15 pm »
+3

Not done yet, but as promised, here's some style suggestions on the early parts of the document. Use them as you see fit. I split them into several posts to hopefully read better.

"Objective of the Game" section: Donald's pithier version in the original rules strikes me as better. I would stick closer to that model. If you want to talk about the phases of the game, maybe something shorter like this would work better:

Quote
This is a game of building a deck of cards. It contains actions you can take, treasures which earn you income, and the victories which show how much better you are than that other guy to the west. Your deck starts out not able to do much, but you hope by the end of the game it will be brimming with Provinces.

On your turn you may play an action from your hand, play your treasures to buy better cards for your deck, then discard and draw a new hand of cards. When your draw pile runs dry, you shuffle both your old and new cards together to form a new draw pile, thus playing through your steadily improving deck again and again as the game continues.

The player with the most victory points at game end wins.
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Polk5440

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2016, 05:34:41 pm »
+3

Page 3. I think you should define kingdom cards rather than refer to the actual rule books. I think which cards are "kingdom cards" is the only thing in which you defer to the actual rule book.

The Card Reference (pages 30-52) can be split into Kingdom Cards and Other Cards (alphabetical within each section). Then you can define kingdom cards by all the cards listed in the Kingdom Cards section of the document.
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Polk5440

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2016, 05:36:23 pm »
+4

Setup Sections:
I think the Basic Setup and Special Setup sections can be combined, integrating rules from the expansions better by having the subsections not be the expansions, but the type of setup required. I think this would make it a lot more readable and be more consistent with the rest of the document.

For example, you could do something like this:

Setup

The Supply

The cards in the supply are the cards available to be bought. Place the supply piles face-up on the table, as follows.

The Kingdom: 10 piles of different Kingdom cards. They may be selected in any way you choose. Each pile of Kingdom Victory cards should include 12 copies of the card. For two player games, include only 8 copies of Victory cards. All other kingdom card piles has 10 copies of the card, unless noted otherwise below in [the section] Additional Setup.

Basic Treasure card piles: Copper (60 cards minus the starting Coppers for each player), Silver (40 cards), and Gold (30 cards). If playing with 5 or 6 players, use twice as many Coppers, Silvers, and Golds. 

Basic Victory card piles: Estate, Duchy, and Province. Include 12 copies of each. If playing with two players, include 8 copies of each. If playing with 5 players, use 15 Provinces, instead. If playing with 6 players, use 18 Provinces, instead.

Curses: 10 cards in a 2-player game. Add another 10 to the pile for each additional player.

Determine whether to include Platinums and Colonies randomly based on the proportion of cards from Prosperity in the kingdom.

Small text note: One way to choose randomly based on the proportion of kingdom cards from a named expansion is to take the randomizer cards for the cards in the kingdom, shuffle them, and then draw one card. If the chosen card is from the named expansion, the draw is a success; otherwise, it is a failure.

If any card in the Kingdom has [P] in its cost, include the 16 Potion cards in the supply.

If any card in the Kingdom has the type Looter, include the Ruins pile in the supply. Shuffle the 50 Ruins cards, and from those draw and include the same number of Ruins as Curses.

Additional Setup

If you are using Events, include some randomly. No more than two are recommended. Place the Event cards on the table separately.

[[Describe by card, alphabetically, special set-up rules such as the number of cards, tokens, mats, non-supply piles to include, etc.]]

Trash

Place the Trash card on the table to indicate the trash pile (or "the trash").

Starting Deck

Each player begins the game with a deck of 10 cards: 7 Coppers and either 3 Estates or 3 Shelters. Determine whether to play with Shelters randomly, based on the proportion of cards from Dark Ages in the supply. The three Shelters are Hovel, Necropolis, and Overgrown Estate.

Starting Hand

Each player draws 5 cards from his deck to form his starting hand.

Choosing the Starting Player

Randomly choose the starting player. When playing several games, the starting player is the player to the left of the winner of the last game. If there was a tie in the previous game, randomly choose the starting player from the players that didn't win.

Turn Order

Players take turns in clockwise order.

Edit: Typo.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 07:51:42 am by Polk5440 »
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2016, 07:41:09 am »
+3

Polk5440, I would also mention that Victory piles only have 8 cards in 2p :)


Also, but this is quite minor, the rules for including Ruins and Potions and whatnot are "in the game", rather than "in the Kingdom", to account for Black Market.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2016, 07:56:54 am »
+1

Polk5440, I would also mention that Victory piles only have 8 cards in 2p :)


Also, but this is quite minor, the rules for including Ruins and Potions and whatnot are "in the game", rather than "in the Kingdom", to account for Black Market.

Added the 2p victory card count. You second point is completely correct, and I think that can be handled either as special setup with Black Market (which is what I was imagining) or explicitly in the sections as you suggested, doesn't matter to me.

The main suggestion of that post is really just to reorganize the sections.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 08:01:52 am by Polk5440 »
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2016, 11:59:57 am »
0

"Objective of the Game" section: Donald's pithier version in the original rules strikes me as better. I would stick closer to that model. If you want to talk about the phases of the game, maybe something shorter like this would work better:
The thing is that all that info in the beginning helps people understand all the basics of the game mechanics, which in my experience teaching games is key. After that I go into all the details, but if all they know is the general stuff you wrote, they will have problems putting it into context. But I might split the section into two: first a very general description à la what you wrote, then more about the mechanics.

Page 3. I think you should define kingdom cards rather than refer to the actual rule books. I think which cards are "kingdom cards" is the only thing in which you defer to the actual rule book.

The Card Reference (pages 30-52) can be split into Kingdom Cards and Other Cards (alphabetical within each section). Then you can define kingdom cards by all the cards listed in the Kingdom Cards section of the document.
As there is no definition of "Kingdom card", outside of just listing them all, that's a good solution. My thinking was that when you play the game, you need to follow the rulebook for the sets you have in order to find the Kingdom cards to shuffle together. You're not going to follow a master list of Kingdom cards. Also, splitting it means that in order to look up a card in the Card Reference, you have to know whether it's Kingdom card. I'll think about this one.

Edit: Actually this made me realize that you can define them a follows: They are all cards except base cards and cards that say “this is not in the supply”.

Setup Sections:
I think the Basic Setup and Special Setup sections can be combined, integrating rules from the expansions better by having the subsections not be the expansions, but the type of setup required. I think this would make it a lot more readable and be more consistent with the rest of the document.
The reason for separating into Basic and Special Setup is that players may not have all the expansions. I think that's really important and the reason it's more readable the way it is. It really will be quite bloated (and more so for each expansion released) to include all setup for each expansion together with the basic setup. This is particularly true if players are learning the game. I rephrased some sections according to your suggestions though.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 12:25:42 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2016, 12:48:53 pm »
0

Edit: Actually this made me realize that you can define them a follows: They are all cards except base cards and cards that say “this is not in the supply”.


How are "base cards" defined here? Potion, Ruins, Colony, Platinum, and Shelters are all not Kingdom Cards, and I don't know if they are "base cards" or not.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2016, 02:11:28 pm »
0

How are "base cards" defined here? Potion, Ruins, Colony, Platinum, and Shelters are all not Kingdom Cards, and I don't know if they are "base cards" or not.
Good question. In the section "Base cards" I define Potion, Colony and Platinum as base cards, and add: "In Dark Ages there are Ruins cards, which can be seen as base cards too, and Shelter cards, which do not belong to any pile."

The new definition will be: Kingdom cards are all cards except: Base cards and Shelters (see above), and cards that say “this is not in the supply”.

Polk5440

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2016, 04:27:51 pm »
+1

Comments on II. Basic Game Rules, p.8-10.

I like how this section references you to later sections/appendices for more details.

I would split these three pages from the rest of the section and make p.11 ("Terms used on cards") through the end of the section (p.22) its own section (a new section III), because by the time you read to page 11, you have reached the end of the game. Players could at this point put down the rules and attempt to play a game of Dominion. The rest fills in the details.

Other suggestions:
-- Swap paragraphs 2 and 3 of "A - Action phase". This way the section ends with "If your Action pool is now empty, then you are done with your Action phase."
-- As mentioned by someone else, the Bridge Troll example on p. 8 doesn't match too well with what is going on in the text. Nowhere in these few pages do you reference "play ability", "start-of-turn ability (set up)", or "while-in-play and during-your-turn state". You simply reference later sections. This example should be there in those sections.
-- You do mention Action pool, money pool, and buy pool on p. 8 and have an example in the text referring to "+1 Action, +2 Actions, etc.". I expected the picture to relate to this.
-- p. 9, first sentence of "B -- Buy Phase", I would add the clause "one at a time".
-- I would swap last two paragraphs of "B - Buy phase" so the paragraph ends with "If your buy pool is now empty, you are done with your Buy phase".
-- Again, the Quarry example seems out of place. You do not talk about "Play ability" or "while-in-play state" here, but you do talk about producing coins and extra buys in the text.
-- p. 9 "C - Clean-up phase" says "Discard all the cards in play" but Duration cards or Throne Room on Durations which are not completely resolved are not actually discarded. Not sure how best to word this, but maybe something like "Discard all the cards in play (see LOCATIONS IN THE GAME: PLAY AREA -- "IN PLAY") which have been completely resolved (see DURATION CARDS) and all of the cards left in your hand."
-- It would be nice if the play mat picture on page 8 was on a page with the subsection "Locations in the game".
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2016, 04:28:32 pm »
+1

p.11-22 Basic Game Rules

-- I would separate into a new section III (as mentioned above).
-- I would swap the subsections "Playing a card (Action or Treasure)" and "Terms used on cards".
-- p. 14 "Gaining a card" subsection: I would move the first sentence "Buying a card results in gaining it" to the end of the subsection.

p. 22-26 Overviews and Summaries

-- I am not sure what the subsection "Overview of ability triggers" is doing. Is it just a tabulation of the text on the cards? If so, I would strike the whole subsection or combine it with the previous subsections "Basic timing rules" and "Advanced timing rules".
-- Similar comment regarding the subsection "Overview of state timers".
-- The subsections "Summary of your turn", "Summary of player activities", "Summary of timing rules", and "Common mistakes" are the highlights of the entire document to me. I really like them and feel they are all that is needed in the Overviews and Summaries section.

This is the end of the suggestions from me. Hope they help.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2016, 11:27:47 pm »
+1

Thanks for all your suggestions! I finally have some time to work on this again.

Comments on II. Basic Game Rules, p.8-10.

I like how this section references you to later sections/appendices for more details.

I would split these three pages from the rest of the section and make p.11 ("Terms used on cards") through the end of the section (p.22) its own section (a new section III), because by the time you read to page 11, you have reached the end of the game. Players could at this point put down the rules and attempt to play a game of Dominion. The rest fills in the details.

This is an interesting suggestion. I like the idea, but I'm not sure how to implement it in a good way. The thing is that those pages also contain a lot of details, and some stuff in the later pages are essential before starting to play (like in "Timing of concurrent abilities or effects" it says essentially that Curses etc are given in turn order). I'm really considering making a new Section II with "Essential game rules" though. The problem is that I'll repeat a lot of stuff, because it should still be in the new Section III... Another possibility would be to keep everything as is but highlight the essential rules somehow.

Other suggestions:
-- Swap paragraphs 2 and 3 of "A - Action phase". This way the section ends with "If your Action pool is now empty, then you are done with your Action phase."

Thanks, I've changed this.

-- As mentioned by someone else, the Bridge Troll example on p. 8 doesn't match too well with what is going on in the text. Nowhere in these few pages do you reference "play ability", "start-of-turn ability (set up)", or "while-in-play and during-your-turn state". You simply reference later sections. This example should be there in those sections.
-- You do mention Action pool, money pool, and buy pool on p. 8 and have an example in the text referring to "+1 Action, +2 Actions, etc.". I expected the picture to relate to this.

-- Again, the Quarry example seems out of place. You do not talk about "Play ability" or "while-in-play state" here, but you do talk about producing coins and extra buys in the text.

Yeah, thanks for the reminder. I've decided to have simpler cards in this section, and then see if the Quarry and Bridge Troll can go somewhere else or are unnecessary.

-- p. 9, first sentence of "B -- Buy Phase", I would add the clause "one at a time".

I feel that sentence and the next make that very clear...

-- I would swap last two paragraphs of "B - Buy phase" so the paragraph ends with "If your buy pool is now empty, you are done with your Buy phase".

Changed this.

-- p. 9 "C - Clean-up phase" says "Discard all the cards in play" but Duration cards or Throne Room on Durations which are not completely resolved are not actually discarded. Not sure how best to word this, but maybe something like "Discard all the cards in play (see LOCATIONS IN THE GAME: PLAY AREA -- "IN PLAY") which have been completely resolved (see DURATION CARDS) and all of the cards left in your hand."

Good idea, I've added a reference to Durations here, in small text.

-- It would be nice if the play mat picture on page 8 was on a page with the subsection "Locations in the game".

Hmm, I'll think about it.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2016, 11:32:42 pm »
+1

-- I would swap the subsections "Playing a card (Action or Treasure)" and "Terms used on cards".

Good idea, done.

-- p. 14 "Gaining a card" subsection: I would move the first sentence "Buying a card results in gaining it" to the end of the subsection.

Also done.

p. 22-26 Overviews and Summaries

-- I am not sure what the subsection "Overview of ability triggers" is doing. Is it just a tabulation of the text on the cards? If so, I would strike the whole subsection or combine it with the previous subsections "Basic timing rules" and "Advanced timing rules".
-- Similar comment regarding the subsection "Overview of state timers".
-- The subsections "Summary of your turn", "Summary of player activities", "Summary of timing rules", and "Common mistakes" are the highlights of the entire document to me. I really like them and feel they are all that is needed in the Overviews and Summaries section.

I was hoping the intro to "Overview of ability triggers" tells you exactly what it does. It's about timing. It tells you when those abilities trigger, so you know when stuff trigger at the same time. The "state timers" are a little more fuzzy, but I felt I needed them to cover everything, because they don't fit the definition of triggered ability.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2016, 04:10:43 pm »
+1

"Objective of the Game" section: Donald's pithier version in the original rules strikes me as better. I would stick closer to that model. If you want to talk about the phases of the game, maybe something shorter like this would work better:

Quote
This is a game of building a deck of cards. It contains actions you can take, treasures which earn you income, and the victories which show how much better you are than that other guy to the west. Your deck starts out not able to do much, but you hope by the end of the game it will be brimming with Provinces.

On your turn you may play an action from your hand, play your treasures to buy better cards for your deck, then discard and draw a new hand of cards. When your draw pile runs dry, you shuffle both your old and new cards together to form a new draw pile, thus playing through your steadily improving deck again and again as the game continues.

The player with the most victory points at game end wins.

I ended up using some of your phrases here, in a new, short "intro" to the "Objective of the game" section:

In Dominion you build your own deck of cards while playing the game. Your deck contains the actions you can take, treasures that earn you income, and property that might give you the victory. On your turn you may play an Action card, play Treasures, buy a card, and then discard and draw a new hand of cards. When your draw pile runs dry, you shuffle both your old and new cards together to form a new draw pile, thus playing through your steadily improving deck again and again as the game continues.

I hope it's okay, otherwise I'll rephrase. :)

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2016, 10:58:46 am »
+3

Now I'm finally done with version 2. As well as incorporating Empires, I did several major changes and many more smaller changes.

Complete Rules for Dominion and All Its Expansions

As before, I appreciate all feedback, especially about any mistakes, inconsistencies or things that are written in an unclear or confusing way. And thanks to everybody who gave feedback before!

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2016, 10:59:26 am »
0

The direct link I gave previously now gets you the new version. But please go to BGG and thumb the file page if you're at all able to, to help it be more visible.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2016, 11:48:42 am »
0

You state that Teacher tokens can be put on the Gladiator/Fortune pile even if Fortune is the top card; I was under the impression this could only be done if the top card was an Action.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2016, 12:38:19 pm »
+2

You state that Teacher tokens can be put on the Gladiator/Fortune pile even if Fortune is the top card; I was under the impression this could only be done if the top card was an Action.

From the rulebook: "Some cards refer to the cost or types of a pile as if it is just one card. In these cases go with what is on the Randomizer card, which usually matches the top card."
So it's the pile as a whole that has a type and a cost. Teacher puts a token on an "Action Supply pile".

(This is also why, for instance, the Knight pile doesn't get a Trade Route token even though Dame Josephine is on top.)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 12:40:08 pm by Jeebus »
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2016, 03:46:36 pm »
+1

p. 6: Describing the number of curses used in a game, the word addition is used instead of additional.
Quote
Add another 10 to the pile for each addition player.

p. 11: Open information to all players: the following additional words are incorrectly purple after the first instance of the word trash: and t

p. 11: when describing scoring at the bottom of the page, curses are not mentioned.

Throughout the document, small text appears as meaningless rectangles unless italicized.

Will edit as more formatting mistakes are found
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 04:01:37 pm by Doom_Shark »
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2016, 04:19:25 pm »
0

p. 6: Describing the number of curses used in a game, the word addition is used instead of additional.
Quote
Add another 10 to the pile for each addition player.

p. 11: Open information to all players: the following additional words are incorrectly purple after the first instance of the word trash: and t

p. 11: when describing scoring at the bottom of the page, curses are not mentioned.

Throughout the document, small text appears as meaningless rectangles unless italicized.

Will edit as more formatting mistakes are found

Thanks! It's great to identify and be able to fix these small mistakes.

When it comes to your last comment, about small text, I can't see it. Can you give me a page number, or maybe even a screen capture?

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2016, 04:52:56 pm »
0

p. 6: Describing the number of curses used in a game, the word addition is used instead of additional.
Quote
Add another 10 to the pile for each addition player.

p. 11: Open information to all players: the following additional words are incorrectly purple after the first instance of the word trash: and t

p. 11: when describing scoring at the bottom of the page, curses are not mentioned.

Throughout the document, small text appears as meaningless rectangles unless italicized.

Will edit as more formatting mistakes are found

Thanks! It's great to identify and be able to fix these small mistakes.

When it comes to your last comment, about small text, I can't see it. Can you give me a page number, or maybe even a screen capture?
Not easily, as I have been going through this on my phone, and it appears sporadically throughout the entire document. It may be just my phone. Will check on my computer later to verify.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2016, 09:03:56 pm »
+2

Great document.  I've already found a couple interactions that I don't think I was aware of the proper way to play.

In addition...

p. 8:  I didn't see anything in the document about 2-player Colony/Platinum games only needing 8 Colonies.  I expected to see it in the paragraph about determining whether to include Colony/Platinum.

p. 8:  Jack of all Dominion hasn't been updated for Empires and multiple attempts to contact the Dev have been unsuccessful.  It's a great app otherwise, but I don't know that I would make it the documented app.  Kingdom Shuffler has Empires and more features than JoaD.  It has replaced JoaD as my shuffler of choice and would make a good replacement for your document were you so inclined.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2016, 09:06:26 pm »
0

p. 6: Describing the number of curses used in a game, the word addition is used instead of additional.
Quote
Add another 10 to the pile for each addition player.

p. 11: Open information to all players: the following additional words are incorrectly purple after the first instance of the word trash: and t

p. 11: when describing scoring at the bottom of the page, curses are not mentioned.

Throughout the document, small text appears as meaningless rectangles unless italicized.

Will edit as more formatting mistakes are found

Thanks! It's great to identify and be able to fix these small mistakes.

When it comes to your last comment, about small text, I can't see it. Can you give me a page number, or maybe even a screen capture?
Not easily, as I have been going through this on my phone, and it appears sporadically throughout the entire document. It may be just my phone. Will check on my computer later to verify.

OK, looks like it was just my phone. weird...
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2016, 10:40:34 am »
0

Great document.  I've already found a couple interactions that I don't think I was aware of the proper way to play.

In addition...

p. 8:  I didn't see anything in the document about 2-player Colony/Platinum games only needing 8 Colonies.  I expected to see it in the paragraph about determining whether to include Colony/Platinum.

Good call. It says "all Victory piles" under Basic Setup, but it should be mentioned under Prosperity setup too.

p. 8:  Jack of all Dominion hasn't been updated for Empires and multiple attempts to contact the Dev have been unsuccessful.  It's a great app otherwise, but I don't know that I would make it the documented app.  Kingdom Shuffler has Empires and more features than JoaD.  It has replaced JoaD as my shuffler of choice and would make a good replacement for your document were you so inclined.

Agh. This is why I didn't want to mention any app at all. Should have followed my instinct.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2016, 08:17:07 pm »
0

p. 8:  Jack of all Dominion hasn't been updated for Empires and multiple attempts to contact the Dev have been unsuccessful.  It's a great app otherwise, but I don't know that I would make it the documented app.  Kingdom Shuffler has Empires and more features than JoaD.  It has replaced JoaD as my shuffler of choice and would make a good replacement for your document were you so inclined.
Agh. This is why I didn't want to mention any app at all. Should have followed my instinct.

Yeah, I think your instinct was right.  Unless you feel like regularly scouring the web to identify (and update your document to reflect) new, updated, out-of-date and abandoned shufflers (which, even if you did, potentially opens a whole new can of worms with regard to documenting features and bugs), I think just mentioning that such shufflers exist is the best option.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2016, 10:13:27 pm »
0

I made a minor version update. Version 2.1 is now up.

Complete Rules for Dominion and All Its Expansions

It has a few small corrections, plus hyperlinks added to "common effects" all through the Card reference. See the description on BGG for more details.

I don't expect to make another version until the next expansion.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2016, 10:27:05 am »
0

Well, I did make another version even though there was no new expansion. 14 new cards is like a mini expansion though. So, version 3 is up now.

Complete Rules for Dominion and All Its Expansions

If you for some weird reason don't have a BGG account and don't want one, you can get it from the link posted earlier in this thread.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2016, 10:59:43 am »
0

When did the Throne Room + Duration rule get changed? Is there a thread here where it happened?
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2016, 07:17:25 pm »
0

When did the Throne Room + Duration rule get changed? Is there a thread here where it happened?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=15668.msg632744#msg632744

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2016, 11:02:30 pm »
+2

Some grammar, formatting, and other suggestions:
1) pg. 2, paragraph 1, grammar: "To start playing, you should read chapter I, and the paragraphs..." The comma after the word "and" is unnecessary and ultimately interrupts the flow of the sentence

2) pg. 2, paragraph 1, word choice: ...and the necessary sections of COMPONENTS OF THE GAME and SPECIAL SETUP according to yourif you have any relevant expansions...Check chapter III if you're playing withusing cards from theany relevant expansions

3) pg. 2, paragraph 2, word choice: If you already know how to play Dominion...Chapters II and III giveprovide more details

4) pg. 2, paragraph 6, grammar: So do terms with an initial capital letter
Alternatively: So do terms with initial capital letters
I think the first sounds more professional, though either is acceptable.

5) pg. 2, paragraph 8, is unnecessary, as the indented text is explained in the last paragraph of pg. 1.

6) pg. 2, under published games, word choice: Dominion (here calledreferred to as Base game)

7) pg. 2, when describing expansion symbols, "expansion" should probably be used instead of "set." Also, within the parentheses, there should be a comma following the word "Additionally"

8 ) pg. 3, paragraph 2, formatting: the symbol and the words "Victory points" should switch locations, so that the sentence would read: The winner is the player who has the most victory points () at the end of the game. This also applies when introducing VP tokens and the coin symbol.

9) pg. 3, paragraph 4, word choice: You mostlyusually start your turn...

10) pg. 3, paragraph 4, formatting: you forgot to color an instance of the word "deck" in the last sentence.

11) pg. 3, paragraph 5, formatting: the word "Supply" should be purple, as it has a definition according to the rules of dominion

12) pg. 3, paragraph 6, clarification: you should specify that the shuffled cards are added to the bottom of your deck

13)pg. 3, paragraph 6, formatting: the following words should be purple in the last sentence: deck, opponent (actually unsure about this one), turn, deck (again)

14: pg. 3, Components of the game, Cards, Base cards, paragraph 2: There are also basic Treasure and Victory cards in Prosperity, - Platinum and Colony - and a basic Treasures in Alchemy: namely Potion
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2016, 11:19:38 am »
+1

Thanks for your feedback! I've adopted most of your suggestions (for the next version obviously, I assume whenever a new expansion arrives unless substantial changes are made to second edition versions of cards in the meantime).

Some grammar, formatting, and other suggestions:
1) pg. 2, paragraph 1, grammar: "To start playing, you should read chapter I, and the paragraphs..." The comma after the word "and" is unnecessary and ultimately interrupts the flow of the sentence
The reason for the comma was actually to create a pause, to separate  "chapter I" and "the paragraphs in chapter II marked with a golden shield", so that it's clear that "marked with a golden shield" only applies to "the paragraphs in chapter II". Do you still think it's clearer to just drop the comma?

7) pg. 2, when describing expansion symbols, "expansion" should probably be used instead of "set."
The thing is that it also includes the symbol for the base game, which is not an expansion.

10) pg. 3, paragraph 4, formatting: you forgot to color an instance of the word "deck" in the last sentence.
It's intentional. The deck is defined as the draw pile (as in all actual card texts). In that sentence ("let you trash cards from your deck"), the meaning is rather "all your cards", not just your draw pile. Maybe rephrasing it would be better...
The fact is that "deck" is used in Dominion with both meanings. Even in the new rules. From the Overview section: (meaning 1 = draw pile; meaning 2 = all your cards)
Dominion is a game of building a deck (2) of cards.  Each player has their own deck (1) , their own discard pile, their own hand of cards and play area. ...and then buy one card to add to your deck (2)
On cards, "deck" is used with meaning 1 (I think without exception).

11) pg. 3, paragraph 5, formatting: the word "Supply" should be purple, as it has a definition according to the rules of dominion
I have chosen to not color the words that already have an initial capital letter in card texts and rulebooks. Maybe I should have. I would have to color Action, Action phase, Bane, Buy, Buy phase, Clean-up phase, Coin, Coin token, Debt, Kingdom card, Randomizer, Supply, Victory point, Victory point token; and maybe Journey token and Tavern mat. (Names and types would obviously be left as-is.) I'll consider this for the next version.

12) pg. 3, paragraph 6, clarification: you should specify that the shuffled cards are added to the bottom of your deck
That's specified in the relevant rules sections. This is just an overview.

13)pg. 3, paragraph 6, formatting: the following words should be purple in the last sentence: deck, opponent (actually unsure about this one), turn, deck (again)
Deck: same as above. Again, I'm not sure if rephrasing it would be better. I have chosen not to define opponent or turn, as it's the same as in every game.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2016, 04:44:06 pm »
+2

Thanks for your feedback! I've adopted most of your suggestions (for the next version obviously, I assume whenever a new expansion arrives unless substantial changes are made to second edition versions of cards in the meantime).

Some grammar, formatting, and other suggestions:
1) pg. 2, paragraph 1, grammar: "To start playing, you should read chapter I, and the paragraphs..." The comma after the word "and" is unnecessary and ultimately interrupts the flow of the sentence
The reason for the comma was actually to create a pause, to separate  "chapter I" and "the paragraphs in chapter II marked with a golden shield", so that it's clear that "marked with a golden shield" only applies to "the paragraphs in chapter II". Do you still think it's clearer to just drop the comma?

7) pg. 2, when describing expansion symbols, "expansion" should probably be used instead of "set."
The thing is that it also includes the symbol for the base game, which is not an expansion.

10) pg. 3, paragraph 4, formatting: you forgot to color an instance of the word "deck" in the last sentence.
It's intentional. The deck is defined as the draw pile (as in all actual card texts). In that sentence ("let you trash cards from your deck"), the meaning is rather "all your cards", not just your draw pile. Maybe rephrasing it would be better...
The fact is that "deck" is used in Dominion with both meanings. Even in the new rules. From the Overview section: (meaning 1 = draw pile; meaning 2 = all your cards)
Dominion is a game of building a deck (2) of cards.  Each player has their own deck (1) , their own discard pile, their own hand of cards and play area. ...and then buy one card to add to your deck (2)
On cards, "deck" is used with meaning 1 (I think without exception).

11) pg. 3, paragraph 5, formatting: the word "Supply" should be purple, as it has a definition according to the rules of dominion
I have chosen to not color the words that already have an initial capital letter in card texts and rulebooks. Maybe I should have. I would have to color Action, Action phase, Bane, Buy, Buy phase, Clean-up phase, Coin, Coin token, Debt, Kingdom card, Randomizer, Supply, Victory point, Victory point token; and maybe Journey token and Tavern mat. (Names and types would obviously be left as-is.) I'll consider this for the next version.

12) pg. 3, paragraph 6, clarification: you should specify that the shuffled cards are added to the bottom of your deck
That's specified in the relevant rules sections. This is just an overview.

13)pg. 3, paragraph 6, formatting: the following words should be purple in the last sentence: deck, opponent (actually unsure about this one), turn, deck (again)
Deck: same as above. Again, I'm not sure if rephrasing it would be better. I have chosen not to define opponent or turn, as it's the same as in every game.

Ok, the deck thing makes sense. I see your reasoning behind the comma, although I still think it would be clearer without, as it interrupts the flow of yhe sentence. The capitalized thing makes sense, surprised that I missed it on the others.

More feedback forthcoming!
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2016, 03:24:35 am »
+1

Some grammar, formatting, and other suggestions:
1) pg. 2, paragraph 1, grammar: "To start playing, you should read chapter I, and the paragraphs..." The comma after the word "and" is unnecessary and ultimately interrupts the flow of the sentence
The reason for the comma was actually to create a pause, to separate  "chapter I" and "the paragraphs in chapter II marked with a golden shield", so that it's clear that "marked with a golden shield" only applies to "the paragraphs in chapter II". Do you still think it's clearer to just drop the comma?
There are some possibilities for getting rid of the comma while still making it clear that "marked with a golden shield" only applies to "the paragraphs in chapter II", but all are a bit more verbose, e.g.

"To start playing, you should read both chapter I and the paragraphs..."

"To start playing, you should read not only chapter I but also the paragraphs..."

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2016, 06:06:54 pm »
+1

More grammar, formatting, and other suggestions:

Note: most word choice suggestions listed are simply for professionalism, and can be ignored at the author's discretion

1) pg. 3, Base cards, paragraph 4, grammar and word choice: In Dark Ages, there are Ruins cards, which can be seen as base cards, too, and Shelters cards, which do not belong to any pile.

2) pg. 3, Base cards, indented text, grammar: The Base game and Intrugue (1st ed.) each contains...
2.1) also, each card name should be pluralized.

3) pg. 3, Kingdom cards, word choice: There are 275 different Kingdom card piles available in total, (countingincluding the 12 that were in the first editions...

4) pg. 4, Non-Kingdom cards, word choice: replace each instance of "in" with "from"

5) pg. 4, Common tokens, Coin tokens, paragraph 3: Even though it is stated in paragraph 4 of this section, I would still include that Pirate Ship tokens cannot be spent like tokens handed out by guilds cards here.

6) pg. 4, Common tokens, Victory point tokens, grammar/word choice: When you take a token, take it from the token supply unless otherwise specified where to take it from
6.1) They have values of 1, 2, and 5...

7) pg. 5, Debt tokens, grammar/word choice: see 6)

8 ) pg. 5, Player tokens, paragraph 1, word choice: In each player color (6) there are 8 round tokens and 2 rectangular tokens in each of the 6 player colors

9) pg. 5, Player tokens, paragraph 2,grammar(ish): repeating "your" in the list of tokens is unnecessary after the first instance of the word. Space will be saved, and the sentence will remain grammatically correct.

10) pg. 6, Ruins and Shelters: I would note that these types also allow them to be referred to by other cards (e.g. Vagrant)

11) pg. 6, Travellers: I would note the arrow present in the text boxes of all traveller cards

12) pg 6. Types, indented small print, grammar/missing info: The exceptions are Action-Victory, Action-Shelter, and Action Treasure...

More feedback forthcoming!
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2016, 11:01:33 am »
0

More grammar, formatting, and other suggestions:

1, 3, 4, 10) I decided it's fine the way it is. (All card types can be referred to by other cards...)
2) I'm pretty sure it's grammatically (and logically) correct to use singular with "each".
5) Ok, I made a note of it under the section for Coin tokens in the actual rules.
6, 7, 8, 9) Ok, changed
11) This is already noted under the section for Travellers in the actual rules.
12) Grammatical mistake and missing info indeed, thanks!

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2016, 03:35:14 pm »
0

2) I'm pretty sure it's grammatically (and logically) correct to use singular with "each".

Yep. "Each" is singular.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2016, 03:57:18 pm »
+2

Some grammar, formatting, and other suggestions:
1) pg. 2, paragraph 1, grammar: "To start playing, you should read chapter I, and the paragraphs..." The comma after the word "and" is unnecessary and ultimately interrupts the flow of the sentence
The reason for the comma was actually to create a pause, to separate  "chapter I" and "the paragraphs in chapter II marked with a golden shield", so that it's clear that "marked with a golden shield" only applies to "the paragraphs in chapter II". Do you still think it's clearer to just drop the comma?
There are some possibilities for getting rid of the comma while still making it clear that "marked with a golden shield" only applies to "the paragraphs in chapter II", but all are a bit more verbose, e.g.

"To start playing, you should read both chapter I and the paragraphs..."

"To start playing, you should read not only chapter I but also the paragraphs..."

I would say the comma in:

Quote
To start playing, you should read chapter I, and the paragraphs in chapter II marked with a golden shield.

is simply incorrect.  I know the comma is there to denote a pause/separation as if you were reading aloud, but this isn't really done in technical writing.  It reads very clearly without the comma.  The comma here strongly suggests that 'and' is being used as a conjunction between two independent clauses, and this is not the case here.  This makes the latter part of the sentence feel like a fragment.   In case there is any fear of a lack of clarity, you can simply say:

Quote
To start playing, you should read chapter I and the paragraphs in chapter II that are marked with a golden shield.

The 'that are' is implied in the original wording (without the comma), and adding it in shows there's no danger of thinking the golden shields are associated with chapter I.

For what it's worth, I worked as a technical writer for three years, and spent a lot of time editing and writing papers (mostly mathematical), as well as different types of user guides/user documentation.  Of course, this type of document is not the same, though I would tend to follow technical writing guidelines for something like this, since it is a kind of manual.

I'd also capitalize things like 'Chapter I', etc. (basically, any enumerated header), but that's a style choice.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2016, 06:57:52 pm »
0

2) I'm pretty sure it's grammatically (and logically) correct to use singular with "each".

Yep. "Each" is singular.

It was actually pluralized in the rules document. The strikethrough on the letter "s" wasn't obvious, and easily mistaken for bold, causing the miscommunication.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2016, 09:13:38 pm »
0

2) I'm pretty sure it's grammatically (and logically) correct to use singular with "each".

Yep. "Each" is singular.

It was actually pluralized in the rules document. The strikethrough on the letter "s" wasn't obvious, and easily mistaken for bold, causing the miscommunication.

I'm confused. In the document it says: "The Base game and Intrigue each contains..."
"contains" is singular. Are you saying that's correct or not?

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2016, 01:27:28 am »
0

2) I'm pretty sure it's grammatically (and logically) correct to use singular with "each".

Yep. "Each" is singular.

It was actually pluralized in the rules document. The strikethrough on the letter "s" wasn't obvious, and easily mistaken for bold, causing the miscommunication.

I'm confused. In the document it says: "The Base game and Intrigue each contains..."
"contains" is singular. Are you saying that's correct or not?

I will admit that I managed to confuse myself...and honestly, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure. On the one hand, "the Base game and Intrigue" is plural, and on the other, each is not...Ithink that when I posted the suggestion originally, I was thinking from the point of view of "the Base game and Intrigue" rather than "each," and now I'm not sure.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2016, 04:24:06 am »
0

2) I'm pretty sure it's grammatically (and logically) correct to use singular with "each".

Yep. "Each" is singular.

It was actually pluralized in the rules document. The strikethrough on the letter "s" wasn't obvious, and easily mistaken for bold, causing the miscommunication.

I'm confused. In the document it says: "The Base game and Intrigue each contains..."
"contains" is singular. Are you saying that's correct or not?

To my ear that is wrong, it should be "each contain".
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2016, 09:22:43 am »
+1

I'm pretty sure that you shouldn't be using singular/plural verbs based on the word "each", but based on whatever happens to be the subject of the sentence. In many cases, the "each" is a part of the subject (such as "Each expansion contains..."), but here, the subject is "The Base game and Intrigue", which is a plural subject, so it should be correct to use the plural verb too.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2016, 09:26:04 am »
0

2) I'm pretty sure it's grammatically (and logically) correct to use singular with "each".

Yep. "Each" is singular.

It was actually pluralized in the rules document. The strikethrough on the letter "s" wasn't obvious, and easily mistaken for bold, causing the miscommunication.

I'm confused. In the document it says: "The Base game and Intrigue each contains..."
"contains" is singular. Are you saying that's correct or not?

To my ear that is wrong, it should be "each contain".

Yes, plural is proper agreement here. Either the subject is "Base and Intrigue" or the subject is "Each", both of which are plural subjects in this sentence. "Each of Base and Intrigue contains" would be correct though I think?
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2016, 09:40:57 am »
0

I think 'both' is actually better.  "Both the Base game and Intrigue contain..."
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2016, 10:12:57 am »
+2

"Each" is always singular when it is a subject. I try never to use "each" in apposition in a sentence of technical writing where the subject is plural because it can be confusing. Though, there is no rule on this.

I prefer these formulations:

"The Base game and Intrigue contain..."
"Each of the Base game and Intrigue contains..."
"Both the base game and Intrigue contain..."
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2016, 12:21:41 pm »
0

Yeah my mistake - if each is a subject it is singular. In the example sentence I think it is a preposition though. "Each of X and Y are ...", the subject is "X and Y", or plural.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2016, 12:50:55 pm »
0

"Each" is always singular when it is a subject. I try never to use "each" in apposition in a sentence of technical writing where the subject is plural because it can be confusing. Though, there is no rule on this.

I prefer these formulations:

"The Base game and Intrigue contain..."
"Each of the Base game and Intrigue contains..."
"Both the base game and Intrigue contain..."

These answers each are correct.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2016, 06:03:51 pm »
+1

"Each" is always singular when it is a subject. I try never to use "each" in apposition in a sentence of technical writing where the subject is plural because it can be confusing. Though, there is no rule on this.

I prefer these formulations:

"The Base game and Intrigue contain..."
"Each of the Base game and Intrigue contains..."
"Both the base game and Intrigue contain..."

These answers each are correct.

Uh, I think you meant to say, "Each of this answers are correctly."
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2016, 05:04:31 pm »
0

I found several explanations of the rules on this, and they were all pretty convoluted compared to this simple one that nevertheless seems to be correct: http://www.really-learn-english.com/each-singular-or-plural.html

In my case rule number 2 applies. (The pronoun "each" acts in apposition to a plural subject.) So what I wrote was incorrect. It should be: "The Base game and Intrigue each contain..."

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2016, 05:56:24 pm »
+1

I found several explanations of the rules on this, and they were all pretty convoluted compared to this simple one that nevertheless seems to be correct: http://www.really-learn-english.com/each-singular-or-plural.html

In my case rule number 2 applies. (The pronoun "each" acts in apposition to a plural subject.) So what I wrote was incorrect. It should be: "The Base game and Intrigue each contain..."

The bigger point is that the wording itself is slightly awkward.  I think moving 'each' to the beginning (or, better yet, using 'both'; any of Polk's suggestions really) makes the sentence more direct to read.

The general principle of expository writing is you want to minimize the number of times a reader can get caught up on your wording and get confused, think there's a mistake, or simply wonder why it's written a certain way.  If you have to put in a lot of effort to figure out how this word is being used, or what part of speech it is, or whether or not it's even grammatically correct, then that's a good indication that a reader may get stopped here and that a simpler construction may be better.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2016, 06:16:18 pm »
0

The bigger point is that the wording itself is slightly awkward.  I think moving 'each' to the beginning (or, better yet, using 'both'; any of Polk's suggestions really) makes the sentence more direct to read.

I'm not sure all his suggestions are better.

1) "The Base game and Intrigue contain..."
2) "Each of the Base game and Intrigue contains..."
3) "Both the base game and Intrigue contain..."

1) This one is definitely misleading, because it seems like it could refer to the contents for both sets collectively.
2) What I wrote seems to me to flow better. But this suggestion takes a singular verb according to the grammatical rule, so I guess that makes it clearer.
3) I'm not convinced that using "both" rather than "each" doesn't reduce clarity, since "both" might be understood as "in sum".

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2016, 06:38:48 pm »
+1

The bigger point is that the wording itself is slightly awkward.  I think moving 'each' to the beginning (or, better yet, using 'both'; any of Polk's suggestions really) makes the sentence more direct to read.

I'm not sure all his suggestions are better.

1) "The Base game and Intrigue contain..."
2) "Each of the Base game and Intrigue contains..."
3) "Both the base game and Intrigue contain..."

1) This one is definitely misleading, because it seems like it could refer to the contents for both sets collectively.
2) What I wrote seems to me to flow better. But this suggestion takes a singular verb according to the grammatical rule, so I guess that makes it clearer.
3) I'm not convinced that using "both" rather than "each" doesn't reduce clarity, since "both" might be understood as "in sum".

I understand that the alternate interpretation for (1) is there; I just don't think anyone would ever interpret it that way.  And, technically, or formally, or whateverly, the alternate interpretation isn't really right: 'and' is like an intersection, so both the things contain the following thing.

I would say that 'both' means precisely 'each' when the number of things in the set is two.  Well, I believe you could construct a sentence where there is ambiguity, but I don't think this is one of them.

I think that (2) flows better because you don't have to wonder what the subject is. 

Of course, a big part of these things is just personal preference.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2017, 06:58:41 pm »
+1

Version 3.1 is now up. Most of the changes have to do with the second edition of the cards.

Complete Rules for Dominion and All Its Expansions

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #73 on: January 27, 2017, 05:03:06 pm »
+2

I have actually read the whole thing this time, and after an extensive review, this is what I have for you:
Missing Info:
Page 3, indented text: Events and landmarks are not considered cards...

Formatting:
Page 46, Governor reference: In option three, both instances of "remodel" should be green.

Word Choice:
Page 11, Indented Text: ...the Traveler Upgrades...
Page 42, Doctor: ...cards that have the chosen name...
Page 44, Farming Village: there is an instance of "this" that should not be in the erratum paragraph: "See this Your -1 Card token."

As an additional note, you keep using Feast as an example for BoM leaving play, when Feast is not in the 2nd editions. I would try to find a different example for newer players who don't have access to that card anymore.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #74 on: January 27, 2017, 06:43:33 pm »
+1

I have actually read the whole thing this time, and after an extensive review, this is what I have for you:
Missing Info:
Page 3, indented text: Events and landmarks are not considered cards...

Here I thought it was only necessary to specify Events, since you can actually buy those. There are effects that refer to buying cards and costs of cards. I don't think there's any text in the game where you could be confused by not realizing a Landmark is not a card.

As an additional note, you keep using Feast as an example for BoM leaving play, when Feast is not in the 2nd editions. I would try to find a different example for newer players who don't have access to that card anymore.

This was something I was too lazy to do, I guess, since I referenced Feast a lot. I already fixed some references to old cards, like Secret Chamber and Chancellor. But okay, I went though and fixed everything now, using Embargo instead of Feast, and also references to Saboteur and Spy.

Thanks again!

New version will be uploaded upon publication of the next expansion, or the next major overhaul of old cards, whichever comes first. :)

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #75 on: November 25, 2017, 09:41:02 am »
+5

The time has arrived! Version 4 is now up - with Nocturne, Dismantle, new rulings and several fixes and improvements.

Complete Rules for Dominion and All Its Expansions

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #76 on: December 08, 2017, 08:16:52 pm »
+2

Thank you so much for all of your hard work on this!

I was looking into the information on Donate/Mountain Pass and extra turns. In your summary on the bgg page, you refer to an update that says extra turns are resolved before Donate and Mountain Pass. The clarifications in each of those card entries say the extra turns are resolved after them.

I’m guessing that the document is correct these cards set up after turn abilities and they should be resolved after the turn that set them up, not after potential extra turns.

I did do some searching here and at bgg to find the correct answer, but was unsuccessful. (I didn’t want to pester you with this.)
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2017, 11:08:52 pm »
+2

Extra turns happen after Mountain Pass and Donate.
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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #78 on: December 09, 2017, 12:54:21 am »
0

Thank you so much for all of your hard work on this!

I was looking into the information on Donate/Mountain Pass and extra turns. In your summary on the bgg page, you refer to an update that says extra turns are resolved before Donate and Mountain Pass. The clarifications in each of those card entries say the extra turns are resolved after them.

I’m guessing that the document is correct these cards set up after turn abilities and they should be resolved after the turn that set them up, not after potential extra turns.

Thanks for pointing this out! Donald answered you. It's a mistake on page 22 in my document. It's correct in the card entries, as you pointed out. Yes, I also made the mistake in the summery on BGG, but I corrected that now. Too bad I can't correct the mistake in the document until next version. Let's hope for a new expansion soon. :p

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #79 on: December 09, 2017, 04:15:04 am »
+2

Thank you so much for all of your hard work on this!

I was looking into the information on Donate/Mountain Pass and extra turns. In your summary on the bgg page, you refer to an update that says extra turns are resolved before Donate and Mountain Pass. The clarifications in each of those card entries say the extra turns are resolved after them.

I’m guessing that the document is correct these cards set up after turn abilities and they should be resolved after the turn that set them up, not after potential extra turns.

Thanks for pointing this out! Donald answered you. It's a mistake on page 22 in my document. It's correct in the card entries, as you pointed out. Yes, I also made the mistake in the summery on BGG, but I corrected that now. Too bad I can't correct the mistake in the document until next version. Let's hope for a new expansion soon. :p
You could always do a "version 4.1" correcting the small mistake. Or, if you feel better about it, "version 4.01."
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GendoIkari

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #80 on: December 09, 2017, 11:17:34 am »
0

Extra turns happen after Mountain Pass and Donate.

Is there an underlying rule that makes this true? On the surface, it appears to be 2 different "after this turn" effects, so you would get to choose.
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crj

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2017, 12:15:52 pm »
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I've never seen this stated, but my inference from all the rulings I've seen for Outpost, Possession. Mission, Mountain Pass, Donate, etc. is that the way things go is:
  • ...End of Night phase
  • Cleanup
  • "At end of turn"
  • Determine if the game has ended
  • "After" the turn
  • Determine who will be taking the next turn
  • Start of turn
Things people do during turns, or after turns, can affect who takes the next turn, but all after-turn effects must be concluded before the next turn (for whomever) begins, there' can't be an after-turn effect that is deferred until an entire other turn has taken place.
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Jeebus

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #82 on: December 09, 2017, 01:05:14 pm »
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I think both interpretations are reasonable, but Donald has ruled on it in another thread (and now here).

Erick648

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #83 on: December 09, 2017, 02:13:57 pm »
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If you really want to parse it, "At the end of your turn" could imply that it's still part of your turn (and "At the start of your turn" abilities provide precedent for that), while "After your turn" is clearly after your turn is over.  It may not be obvious, but it's there if you're looking closely enough.
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Jeebus

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #84 on: December 09, 2017, 02:38:17 pm »
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If you really want to parse it, "At the end of your turn" could imply that it's still part of your turn (and "At the start of your turn" abilities provide precedent for that), while "After your turn" is clearly after your turn is over.  It may not be obvious, but it's there if you're looking closely enough.

Yes, I think that is pretty obvious actually, but I don't see how it relates directly to the issue. Donate, Mountain Pass and extra turns all happen after you're turn.

Donald X.

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2017, 03:43:52 pm »
+2

Extra turns happen after Mountain Pass and Donate.

Is there an underlying rule that makes this true? On the surface, it appears to be 2 different "after this turn" effects, so you would get to choose.
It's that they were supposed to happen between turns (just to deal with Possession).
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Jeebus

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Re: Introducing a new rules document
« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2018, 09:10:24 pm »
+1

Version 4.1 is up, with some changes because of some new elements in the 2nd editions of Guilds, Cornucopia and Alchemy.

Complete Rules for Dominion and All Its Expansions

This will be the ultimate version until another expansion shows up.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [All]
 

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