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Author Topic: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest  (Read 7129 times)

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schadd

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rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« on: May 06, 2016, 04:21:32 pm »
0




let's do one of the boring ones today, because teasers. those were fun, right guys?

harvest isn't, though.

well, perhaps harvest is not that boring, by nature of being bad; sometimes the bad ones are the most irresistible. that said, games where you get harvest are generally ones where you aren't doing a whole lot, because if you are then why would you buy harvest.

perhaps fortunately and perhaps unfortunately, there isn't really a way to manipulate this one other than getting different cards; it is cornucopia at its truest form except for that it's bad.

i personally think it's a little better than we have it rated, but not by a lot, and well, differentiating between the bottom few cards is hard because we don't really tend to have a large sample size.

-what sort of deck that, while still eventually drawing itself, doesn't mind playing harvests before all the cards are gone?
-in what game have you made the best use of harvest? (if anyone at all would ever feel like looking for a log of that)
-did you forget about harvest before seeing this? i mean cornucopia is my favorite expansion but i had to check to make sure this was called 'harvest' and not some other thing
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2016, 04:31:45 pm »
+4

Harvest is best in Thief games with lots of +Action and no other +, but plenty of draw, and maybe some +Buy.

In other words, I went through the entire Dominion Online Cornucopia Campaign without ever once buying a Harvest.
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2016, 04:44:58 pm »
+2

Harvest is best in Thief games

So....never
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2016, 05:31:50 pm »
+1

I find harvest one of the most underwhelming cards in dominion... I mean... Itīs rarely good, itīs unrealiable, and even when you get the most from it (all 4 coins) itīs still a bit lackluster for me... Even thief, when it hitīs your opponents gold or platina can be awesome, but harvest just never is. I just think that harvest needed something more, even if little...

Itīs only useful when you, for some reason, really really need that your coin income comes actions and not treasures, mostly pirate ship, and herald games come to mind. and even then there are silly things you have to worry, like not drawing your whole deck before playing it...

I had a league match recently where I bought harvest (herald was key) and found myself mostly wishing they were woodcutters (which were also avaiable), that says a lot...
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 05:32:57 pm by gloures »
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2016, 07:26:54 pm »
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I don't own Cornucopia, so I don't play with its cards often. That said, I don't think I've ever bought Harvest.
It's probably the most blatantly underpowered card of all Dominion. (that is, you need to try Transmute and Scout a few times before it's clear how bad they are)

I don't want it early because it won't give much (2$ or 3 coins, at the cost of discarding one of my early buys), and later I'll prefer Gold because it's not terminal and works on an empty deck and I'm afraid that I'll be not left wondering whether I'll get enough money from Harvest to double Province.
Tribute, another very unreliable card, at least provides good rewards. Harvest's effect is comparable to a card that costs 1$, and its handicap is worse.

The art is very nice.

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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2016, 07:41:32 pm »
+1

I won a game with Harvest once.  I don't remember how though.  It was a sloggy 3-4p game, and Harvest gave me the $4 I needed to hit $8 like three times.
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2016, 07:44:42 pm »
0

I've found some good uses for Harvest, but I cannot remember how this was accomplished.  I definitely played a game against a competent human player recently where this was a big help.  Wish I'd saved the Kingdom. 

I wonder how good it would be if it were +1 money and then +1 money for each different named card in the top 4.
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2016, 08:49:17 pm »
+3

I have won a couple of games using Harvest, which is apparently more than most others can say. Every time, it has been because of Procession or King's Court. If there is no other virtual coin, then Harvest can be useful. Procession also helps with gaining them. I mean, there are King's Court engines where people buy Chancellor and Navigator just to king them, so why not Harvest, a card that at its best on average generates more +coin than almost all other actions in the game.

Harvest also has a place in weird good stuff decks where you have tonnes of actions and some amount of diversity (so that the expected value is at least 3). Might be a decent buy with Champion or Coin of the Realm in those decks? It usually has a lot of competition though, cause Harvest is underwhelming compared to virtually all other 5's and even many 4's and 3's.
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2016, 01:35:43 pm »
0

Harvest is one of my favourite cards from Cornucopia. It's usually ignorable, but when I see it one the board, I always try to see whether I can include it in my strategy. It has netted me a few wins :)

Perhaps Harvest excels best in an engine with high diversity, where optimal play includes buying many different cards. It should synergize well with other cards that reward variety - Menagerie, Fairgrounds, opponent's Swindler (to a degree) etc.
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2016, 01:47:07 pm »
0

Harvest isn't itself a bad card, it's just that there's always something else better. I bought one in a league match last week and it was working fine, giving me 3 or 4 coins each play, but I'd still have been better off with a second library instead.
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2016, 04:49:40 pm »
+4

I think that, more than any other card, Harvest suffers from Gold always being available. Maybe Cache is worse in this regard. Most other $5 money-giving cards give you something that Gold doesn't. Often it's at least +1 Buy (Wine Merchant, Capital, etc.). Sometimes it's spreading out its $ over several turns (Merchant Ship, Merchant Guild). But Harvest just gives +$, and never more than +$4. Online, I generally only buy it if I'm going to throne it. IRL, I've replaced it with a stronger version.
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2016, 05:10:24 pm »
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I think that, more than any other card, Harvest suffers from Gold always being available. Maybe Cache is worse in this regard. Most other $5 money-giving cards give you something that Gold doesn't. Often it's at least +1 Buy (Wine Merchant, Capital, etc.). Sometimes it's spreading out its $ over several turns (Merchant Ship, Merchant Guild). But Harvest just gives +$, and never more than +$4. Online, I generally only buy it if I'm going to throne it. IRL, I've replaced it with a stronger version.

Cache at least has Gardens games going for it over Gold.
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2016, 05:16:05 pm »
+1

IRL, I've replaced it with a stronger version.

I'd be interested to hear what it is, if you don't mind sharing. We can hide in the Variants subforum if you don't want to do this in public.
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werothegreat

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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2016, 05:18:21 pm »
+1

IRL, I've replaced it with a stronger version.

I'd be interested to hear what it is, if you don't mind sharing. We can hide in the Variants subforum if you don't want to do this in public.

My guess would be either to look at more cards, or to selectively discard revealed cards, rather than discarding all of them.
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2016, 03:29:12 am »
0

I think that, more than any other card, Harvest suffers from Gold always being available. Maybe Cache is worse in this regard. Most other $5 money-giving cards give you something that Gold doesn't. Often it's at least +1 Buy (Wine Merchant, Capital, etc.). Sometimes it's spreading out its $ over several turns (Merchant Ship, Merchant Guild). But Harvest just gives +$, and never more than +$4. Online, I generally only buy it if I'm going to throne it. IRL, I've replaced it with a stronger version.

Cache at least has Gardens games going for it over Gold.

It's also better than Gold in other slogs, with Silk Road or Duke. If Copper is a good card, Cache is a good card.
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2016, 06:31:00 am »
0

Harvest, pretty much the Adventurer of Cornucopia.

It's just so boring and lackluster.
It doesn't offer anything plain money doesn't (except for niche things like discarding Tunnels).

Revealing 4 is also often pretty nasty for reshuffles, in a sense that I'd rather draw 4 with Hunting Grounds to trigger a reshuffle than discard cards to trigger the same reshuffle. At least with the draw, you might be able to draw cards that draw cards and the reshuffle isn't that big of a deal.
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2016, 06:36:18 am »
+1

Harvest would be underwhelming, but just fine if it gave +1 Buy.
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2016, 10:22:39 am »
+4

Cache at least has Gardens games going for it over Gold.

I misread that as "garden gnomes".
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2016, 10:28:11 am »
+2

Cache at least has Gardens games going for it over Gold.

I misread that as "garden gnomes".

You know it's a good card when garden gnomes are going for it over Gold.
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2016, 10:34:29 am »
+1

My main experience with Harvest is Swindling people's $5s into it in the late game when I don't want to give them a Duchy. I've had several occurrences of them playing that Harvest for $4 and spiking a Province. That leads to the question: when is it good to give people Harvests?

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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2016, 10:44:17 am »
0

My main experience with Harvest is Swindling people's $5s into it in the late game when I don't want to give them a Duchy. I've had several occurrences of them playing that Harvest for $4 and spiking a Province. That leads to the question: when is it good to give people Harvests?

Always, unless there is a $5 that hurts them more (such as Cache in some situations), or another one that's even less useful (such as Mint).
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2016, 11:29:29 am »
0

My main experience with Harvest is Swindling people's $5s into it in the late game when I don't want to give them a Duchy. I've had several occurrences of them playing that Harvest for $4 and spiking a Province. That leads to the question: when is it good to give people Harvests?

It depends on what that $5 card was that you Swindled, but there's a good chance they would have got that Province anyways (and maybe worse) if you'd left them with the card they originally wanted.  Harvest is usually the worst $5 on the board, but sometimes it will still help them get a Province.  Most $5's do. 
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2016, 12:48:03 pm »
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If Harvest said, "+$4, discard the top 4 cards of your deck" it would see about as much play.  Which tells us something about the virtue of reliability, as Merchant Ship has a very similar effect and is very strong.
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2016, 12:03:36 pm »
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I played a game where I used Harvest to great effect!  Okay, this probably wasn't optimal, as I get 5 provinces by turn 15 which seems slow-ish (right?), but it felt good.

https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160512/log.0.1463065587696.txt
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Re: rēs cornūcōpiae consultēmus: harvest
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2016, 01:10:17 pm »
+1

I played an IRL game with one of my friends with Harvest and Tunnel on the board. So naturally I thought "Harvest sucks, I'm going for it." My friend decided to mirror me. Harvest hit $4 for every single play, except for twice it hit $3. The game was over so fast. So now Harvest has special place in my heart for being a big pile of $$ making power.  ;)
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