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Author Topic: Max VP tokens from Goons.  (Read 5633 times)

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McGarnacle

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Max VP tokens from Goons.
« on: May 03, 2016, 10:12:40 am »
0

What is the maximum number of VP tokens you get get from Goons in 1 turn? There are 10 cards in the kingdom, no Travelling Fair. Assume you can have any cards in your hand, in play or in your deck or the supply.

The most I got was 1500, though I think it should be easy to get even more. I will pay anyone who can get more liberally in respect.
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Chris is me

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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2016, 12:16:50 pm »
+3

I feel like a key to this is using Trader's on-gain ability, combined with an empty Silver pile to buy as many Copper as you want without being limited by the supply.

Getting 10 Goons into play, and 150 Buys, shouldn't be super hard, since 5 King's Courts on 10 Squires alone is 60 Buys, plus the 10 from Goons is 70. You can Inherit another 11 Squire and get to 140 that way too. Madman for draw I guess.

I'll work out the particulars more later, am I on the right track?
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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2016, 12:20:47 pm »
+2

What about ferry on Goons to let BoM immitate it? That way you could get 2x the amount. If you inherrit goons...
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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2016, 12:24:57 pm »
+4

I'm assuming a 4-player game here.

Our Kingdom is:
Ferry
Inheritance
--------
Peasant (bane)
Squire
Scrying Pool
Rats
Young Witch
Bridge
Band of Misfits
Counterfeit
Council Room
Goons
King's Court
Potion
Platinum
Colony


Setup:
-2 Cost token on Goons
+Buy on Goons
+Action on King's Court
Inherited King's Court


At the beginning of the turn, our deck is:
7 Copper
14 Estate
7 Peasant
9 Squire
1 Scrying Pool
9 Bridge
10 Band of Misfits
9 Counterfeit
9 Council Room
9 Goons
10 King's Court
1 Potion
1 Teacher


At the beginning of the turn, the supply looks like:
3 Peasant
9 Scrying Pool
1 Squire
20 Rats
10 Young Witch
1 Bridge
0 Band of Misfits
1 Counterfeit
1 Council Room
1 Goons
0 King's Court
--------
30 Curse
1 Estate
12 Duchy
12 Province
12 Colony
32 Copper
40 Silver
30 Gold
16 Potion
12 Platinum
3+9+1+20+10+1+1+1+1+30+1+12+12+12+32+40+30+16+12 == 244 cards to buy.


If we Ferry Goons we can mimic it with Band of Misfits. That means we can have up to 19 Goons in play at once.
We start with 3 Estates and can get 11 more from the Supply.
Scrying Pool is used to draw deck except for Counterfeits.
Estate x 14, KC x 9 gives 45 tripled actions and an Imperial buttload of extra actions. Play 9 KCed Squires, 9 KCed Goons, 10 KCed Bands of Goony Misfits, 9 KCed Bridges, and 8 KCed Council Rooms. Then 1 more Council Room and 7 Peasants. Then play the stack of Counterfeits for 17 additional buys. Now we have a total of (9*2*3) + (9*2*3) + (10*2*3) + (9*1*3) + (8*1*3) + 1 + 7 + 17 = 244 buys. Buy the entire rest of the Supply, getting +19VP per buy for a total of 4636 VP.

(Yes, KCing Goons does not triple the VP gain but that's what gave the most buys.)

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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2016, 12:28:10 pm »
0

I feel like a key to this is using Trader's on-gain ability, combined with an empty Silver pile to buy as many Copper as you want without being limited by the supply.

Getting 10 Goons into play, and 150 Buys, shouldn't be super hard, since 5 King's Courts on 10 Squires alone is 60 Buys, plus the 10 from Goons is 70. You can Inherit another 11 Squire and get to 140 that way too. Madman for draw I guess.

I'll work out the particulars more later, am I on the right track?

Yes, you are on the right track. I didn't think of Inheritance, though. Good idea.
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McGarnacle

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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2016, 12:30:43 pm »
0

I'm assuming a 4-player game here.

Our Kingdom is:
Ferry
Inheritance
--------
Peasant (bane)
Squire
Scrying Pool
Rats
Young Witch
Bridge
Band of Misfits
Counterfeit
Council Room
Goons
King's Court
Potion
Platinum
Colony


Setup:
-2 Cost token on Goons
+Buy on Goons
+Action on King's Court
Inherited King's Court


At the beginning of the turn, our deck is:
7 Copper
14 Estate
7 Peasant
9 Squire
1 Scrying Pool
9 Bridge
10 Band of Misfits
9 Counterfeit
9 Council Room
9 Goons
10 King's Court
1 Potion
1 Teacher


At the beginning of the turn, the supply looks like:
3 Peasant
9 Scrying Pool
1 Squire
20 Rats
10 Young Witch
1 Bridge
0 Band of Misfits
1 Counterfeit
1 Council Room
1 Goons
0 King's Court
--------
30 Curse
1 Estate
12 Duchy
12 Province
12 Colony
32 Copper
40 Silver
30 Gold
16 Potion
12 Platinum
3+9+1+20+10+1+1+1+1+30+1+12+12+12+32+40+30+16+12 == 244 cards to buy.


If we Ferry Goons we can mimic it with Band of Misfits. That means we can have up to 19 Goons in play at once.
We start with 3 Estates and can get 11 more from the Supply.
Scrying Pool is used to draw deck except for Counterfeits.
Estate x 14, KC x 9 gives 45 tripled actions and an Imperial buttload of extra actions. Play 9 KCed Squires, 9 KCed Goons, 10 KCed Bands of Goony Misfits, 9 KCed Bridges, and 8 KCed Council Rooms. Then 1 more Council Room and 7 Peasants. Then play the stack of Counterfeits for 17 additional buys. Now we have a total of (9*2*3) + (9*2*3) + (10*2*3) + (9*1*3) + (8*1*3) + 1 + 7 + 17 = 244 buys. Buy the entire rest of the Supply, getting +19VP per buy for a total of 4636 VP.

(Yes, KCing Goons does not triple the VP gain but that's what gave the most buys.)


Bravo Singletree! That was very impressive indeed. I didn't think of using Inheritance. One could always use Champion for the actions to simplify things, though.
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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2016, 12:31:22 pm »
+1

+10 to Singletree.
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Chris is me

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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2016, 12:59:37 pm »
+1

Minor quibble: you can't both Inherit King's Court and also have 10 King's Court in your deck. Most you can have is 9 since 1 is set aside.
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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2016, 01:02:02 pm »
0

[...]

This could be further improved upon with Black Market, but I wasn't sure whether that was allowed. I was already using 11 Kingdom cards. ;) It also ups the complexity by a lot.

Black Market would do the following:
1. Allow access to Trader, as Chris is me mentioned, so you can buy without having to worry about the actual number of cards in the supply. This removes the need for Rats in the Kingdom which means more +Buy cards can be in the Kingdom. A single Native Village in the Black Market would suffice for card draw.
2. Allow access to Procession, Throne Room, Royal Carriage, and even more +Buy cards in the Black Market.
3. Allow putting Young Witch in the Black Market to effectively get another Kingdom pile.
4. Black Market itself gives buys.


Actually, even without using Black Market, Scrying Pool could be switched out for Margrave, and KCed Margraves/Council Rooms would give plenty of draw.

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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2016, 01:03:59 pm »
0

Minor quibble: you can't both Inherit King's Court and also have 10 King's Court in your deck. Most you can have is 9 since 1 is set aside.

You're right, I missed that in the deck listing. I did it correctly for computing the number of buys, though.

Also I forgot you have to buy a Potion for Scrying Pool so there are only 15 in the Supply to buy.

McGarnacle

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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2016, 01:24:25 pm »
0

You could use Champion, which would eliminate the need for the + 1 action token on KC. Instead, you could put +1 buy on Squire. Also, you could have 9 Wharves and/or Bridge Trolls in play to get more buys.

Anyone care to on-up singletree?
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singletee

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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2016, 01:34:08 pm »
0

You could use Champion, which would eliminate the need for the + 1 action token on KC. Instead, you could put +1 buy on Squire. Also, you could have 9 Wharves and/or Bridge Trolls in play to get more buys.

Anyone care to on-up singletree?

So, Champion/Page takes up a slot in the Kingdom and I don't think any of the cards from the Page line give +Buy. King's Court (with +Action on some target or other) will give enough actions that it's not an issue.

+Buy on Goons is better because it triggers from both Goons plays and BOM-as-Goons plays.

The limiting factor here is not card draw or actions but number of +Buy cards you can get into the Kingdom and then into your deck and into play.

Also, I just realized you can use Disciple to double some actions while also finishing off piles.

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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2016, 01:39:28 pm »
0

I've actually been tinkering with this for some time as the ultimate infinite Golden Deck (i.e., a deck that's guaranteed to work regardless of shuffle luck and will never end the game). In addition to using Trader, you can have a 6-player game so there are 30 Estates (12 in the supply and 18 in the starting decks, which you can acquire with Masquerade) and you can empty a third pile without ending the game.  You can also use Black Market and have it contain one of each card that's not in the kingdom (the FAQ only says "at least 15 cards"), and save the Kingdom slots for cards you need multiples of (so things like Trader and Masquerade can come from the Black Market deck).  Finally, you can use Procession-Hireling-Graverobber to draw your deck (so you can use Counterfeit and Contraband for extra buys without requiring a kingdom slot for multiple Scrying Pools).  It then becomes a question of how many buys you can generate, but I'm confident you can get well over 10000VP, every turn, forever. 

For reference, you'll have 48 Goons (8 Goons (with one left in the supply for BoM and one set aside for inheritance) + 10 BoMs + 30 Estates), so you'll be getting 48VP per Buy.

Oh, and you should definitely inherit Goons, not King's Court. VP=Goons x Buys, and King's Court only helps increase Buys. Because you should already have far more Buys than Goons, your priority should be increasing Goons, not Buys.
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singletee

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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2016, 01:46:55 pm »
0

I've actually been tinkering with this for some time as the ultimate infinite Golden Deck (i.e., a deck that's guaranteed to work regardless of shuffle luck and will never end the game). In addition to using Trader, you can have a 6-player game so there are 30 Estates (12 in the supply and 18 in the starting decks, which you can acquire with Masquerade) and you can empty a third pile without ending the game.  You can also use Black Market and have it contain one of each card that's not in the kingdom (the FAQ only says "at least 15 cards"), and save the Kingdom slots for cards you need multiples of (so things like Trader and Masquerade can come from the Black Market deck).  Finally, you can use Procession-Hireling-Graverobber to draw your deck (so you can use Counterfeit and Contraband for extra buys without requiring a kingdom slot for multiple Scrying Pools).  It then becomes a question of how many buys you can generate, but I'm confident you can get well over 10000VP, every turn, forever. 

For reference, you'll have 48 Goons (8 Goons (with one left in the supply for BoM and one set aside for inheritance) + 10 BoMs + 30 Estates), so you'll be getting 48VP per Buy.

Oh, and you should definitely inherit Goons, not King's Court. VP=Goons x Buys, and King's Court only helps increase Buys. Because you should already have far more Buys than Goons, your priority should be increasing Goons, not Buys.

10000 VP/turn, very nice! I would have Inherited Goons, except that the question asked about points from Goons, and I supposed that VP from Estates would not count.

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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2016, 01:52:30 pm »
0

Though if we allow Travelling Fair, it's unbounded, since we can get unbounded actions with Processed Champions, turning that into unbounded $ with Diadem.

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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2016, 02:13:40 pm »
+1

Though if we allow Travelling Fair, it's unbounded, since we can get unbounded actions with Processed Champions, turning that into unbounded $ with Diadem.

That's why I said no Travelling Fair.
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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2016, 09:50:21 am »
+1

Who's gonna try it online and crash MF's servers?
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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2016, 10:19:12 pm »
+3

We can certainly improve some more.

First off you can get all manner of cards out of the Bm deck that would allow you to gain the last Goons during your turn after you have finished playing all the Bom. This means we would be getting 10 Bom, 30 Estates, and 9 Goons all in play for 49 VP/buy

You can also increase your buys a good deal.

For instance, you can play the following sequence 10 times:
1. Play Bm
2. Play Counterfeit x10, Contraband x10, Hop
3. Gain a Mandarin (top deck all treasures)
4. Play a Madman (draw Mandarin & treasures).

This uses up 3 kingdom slots (Bm with Yw is a free slot). This gives us 210 buys for our efforts or about 7 buys per card.

These two options make it pretty easy to hit 10,290 VP per turn.

But we can do a little better with the following sequence:
Kc x10 -> [Prssn -> Bm (play Cntft x10, Contraband x10, Hop - gain Mandarin, top deck treasure, trash Bm, gain $4) -> Mandarin -> Sroom draw back treasures]

I think we could setup the Mandarin gain by using Haggler (previously from the Bm) to buy Farmland (from the Bm) to gain Mandarin (top deck treasures, then top deck Mandarin with Wt from the Bm deck), trash Oge (draw Mandarin).


Net result 260 buys with all Bm and Mandarins in the trash. It also used 10 of 19 triple plays.

We can use the other 3 of them to gain back 9 Bm with Rogue. We can use the other 6 to play +2 buy cards from the Bm and generic +buy. (24 more +buy)

Now we can play Bm (treasures) -> Rogue (gain Mandarin, top deck treasures) -> Madman (draw treasures)

We can do this for another 6 Rogues and a Graverobber. This gives us another 8 * 22 = 176 buys.

We can manage actions buy utilizing Prssn -> Prssn -> Fishv (trash Fishv) -> Wharf (trash Warf, trash Prssn) -> Kc -> Rogue (gain Prssn, Fishv, Wharf). We can do this 5 times which gives us +10 actions to start and and additional +10 buys.

Getting all the Goons and equivalents into play is still difficult, but we can put the +action token on Bom and nab a lot of villages out of Bm. Throw in a few Disciple plays, Rc, and Tr and I think we might be able to come up with enough +action to play all 49 Goons before doing up the Bm. Call it 55 buys.

Or last play of the treasures will let us 19 buys from Cntrft and 20 from Cband.

The +buy token on Kc makes for another 27 buys.

Peasant gives +10.

Call it maybe +12 more buys from the Bm deck.

Without too much optimization we can then safely look at 49 *  (39 + 55 + 10 + 176 +24  + 260 +27 + 10 + 12) or ~30,000 VP a turn.

General turn would be something like:
Durations (lots of +action and +buys, no Brgtrl to keep Bm in range of Rogue)
Villages (no +buy) from the Bm deck (including Golem)
Tr/Rc/Disciple -> Bom (one of two empty piles, the other being Prssn)
Gain the rest of the supply
Estates (as Goons)
Goons

Then the Bm/Mandarin shenanigans above.




Events:
Ferry
Inheritance

Kingdom:
1. Goons
2. Bom
3. Kc
4. Bm
5. Peasant
6. Mandarin
7. Counterfeit
8. Contraband
9. Rogue
10. Sroom
11. Prssn


There are likely a few kinks to work out but I think 30,000 VP is a pretty safe lower estimate and perhaps we might be able to stretch it out to 40,000 or 50,000 VP.
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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2016, 10:10:46 am »
0

Nice, +10 to Jomini.
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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2016, 02:37:25 pm »
+1

I can get (a little over) 29 million VP tokens from Goons in a single turn. First do this:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14598.msg595705#msg595705
Then play 10 Goons, and have Trader in hand. Then buy Curse with all your 2.9+ million buys and reveal Trader each time.

This is in a single player game. With more players, there are more Estates, and you can get a bit more.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 02:38:34 pm by florrat »
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Re: Max VP tokens from Goons.
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2016, 07:30:02 am »
0

What is the maximum number of VP tokens you get get from Goons in 1 turn? There are 10 cards in the kingdom, no Travelling Fair. Assume you can have any cards in your hand, in play or in your deck or the supply.
Infinite.  http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14322.msg604357#msg604357
Your kingdom requirements can be met if you are willing to wait more than 3 turns for the megaturn.
It only works in solo play or with cooperative opponents (the Ambassador attack must be blocked).
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