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Author Topic: What I've learnt from Adventures online...  (Read 50699 times)

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Jeebus

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2016, 03:11:30 pm »
0

For my part, I discovered yesterday that if Page/Peasant is in the Black Market, then the relevant upgrade cards will appear in the kingdom, as per the setup rules, but there will be no way to access them because there is no pile to return the Page/Peasant to to exchange.  How odd!

Sounds like a bug. There is absolutely no reason to include Traveller upgrade cards when there's no way to get them, it just creates confusion.

Awaclus

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2016, 03:49:53 pm »
+1

For my part, I discovered yesterday that if Page/Peasant is in the Black Market, then the relevant upgrade cards will appear in the kingdom, as per the setup rules, but there will be no way to access them because there is no pile to return the Page/Peasant to to exchange.  How odd!

Sounds like a bug. There is absolutely no reason to include Traveller upgrade cards when there's no way to get them, it just creates confusion.

It's how the rules actually are though.
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Ankenaut

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2016, 04:36:09 pm »
0

I'm not sure whether I learnt something about the rules or about a bug.  ???

Correct me if I'm wrong: If I buy Travelling Fair and then some other card and I use Duplicate to gain a copy of the latter, I should be able to topdeck both cards?
You should, but also have to be careful.

But: When I buy the first card, the client offers me to topdeck or to call Duplicate.
And rightfully so. You have two things that respond to when-gain, so you have to choose the order.

If I choose to duplicate, I can then topdeck the second card, but the first one goes automatically to discard.
This is also correct. Travelling fair has lost track of the first card after something got put on top of it.

If I choose to topdeck first instead, it doesn’t allow to duplicate afterwards.
That is wrong. You should be able to duplicate it.

This is what is bothering me here. Assume the bug actually gets fixed, or you play on a system where this bug doesn't exist.

When playing IRL, there are two likely scenario's:
a) nobody knows the details about the lose-track-rule, and you just topdeck both.
b) somebody knows the rules but isn't a jerk, and explains to you how to topdeck both.
-> so either way, you end up with both cards on top of your deck.

When playing on a computer, it's actually very likely you don't know the rules and the computer is being a jerk about it and you don't get two cards on top.

Is this something we'd want to "solve"? And if so, how?

What if there were some kind of optional "undo" button that you could use in casual matchups that would allow you to undo a few moves so you can try changing the order of something, un-playing a treasure, etc.? Obviously, it would be very limited since anytime you'd draw a card, trigger a reaction, etc., you'd gain unfair information if it were undone. I'm sure that would be a nightmare to code, but it's a thought.
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Titandrake

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2016, 05:05:08 pm »
+3

Plan + Gear is a pretty great opening. Doing that into Gear-BM got me 4 Colonies in 13 turns.

Raid + Feodum is pretty good. We emptied the Silver pile very quickly.
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JW

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2016, 05:10:12 pm »
+2

Be careful when it's the start of your turn as there's a lot more going on.  Don't accidentally discard cards you want to play to your duration Dungeon, or forget to call your reserve card like Ratcatcher before playing your first action of the turn.

Ratcatcher-Guide is a combo, refill your hand after trashing a card, or hunt for those curses to trash in your second hand.
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Donald X.

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2016, 05:18:16 pm »
+3

Hmm, I don't think I agree with you here. The primary purpose of the engine is to let the players have fun playing a game. And second, I hope that the difference between good players and top players will (continue) to be a better understanding of strategies and tactical moves, not a better understanding of the rules or how to prevent misclicks.
Yes, there is zero intentional "know arcane rules." Ideally there would be no lose-track rule. There is plenty of game in the game.

While I wouldn't mind (the option of enabling) such tooltips, it does require an actual algorithm to determine when to warn the user about what, and so far I don't have an idea that actually works. You certainly don't want a tooltip popping up for every choice you make.
Let's see. The key thing is that two effects can be chosen between, where one effect can move a card (thus it can be messed up via losing track of it), and the other effect can cause a card to be lost track of. You can lose track of a card via moving it another way, or covering it up. Or, if it's on top of your deck, shuffling, which can be caused by drawing cards or looking at them etc.

If both effects move the card, it seems like people should figure out that the card can only go one place. I don't think that needs a warning.

Effects can have other effects feed off of them. Maybe you have "When you gain a card, take a coin token" and "When you get a coin token, +1 Card." You Travelling Fair, then Summon a Nomad Camp. This is just trying to be an example of it being difficult to identify that the order will matter. We are ordering Travelling Fair vs. taking a coin token; what could go wrong? In practice this may not be much of an issue; direct effects will be way more common. Losing track of a normal gained card is also more common than losing track of a card gained to somewhere else.

I guess, if you are choosing between two effects, and one moves a card while the other either involves the discard pile - gain a card, discard a card, take a card from discard pile - then you could note that moving a card can fail if the card is lost track of.

- if a trigger window corresponds to a card, e.g. "when you gain"
- and two+ things can happen
- and one moves the card
- and another interacts with a discard pile, including gaining cards
- then provide the hint: note that if you don't do this (move-effect) first, it may not be possible
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Max

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2016, 05:54:25 pm »
+4

The main thing I've learned is: guide synergises with everything.

Miser, ratcatcher, key cards without a village, thin deck of 7/8 cards, a large deck which needs lots of cycling, the travellers, an engine which needs two opening cards in collision, when greening, when building, and opponent discard attacks (particularly ghost ship)
The only thing it doesn't synergise with is itself, because you need other cards. But my god is that card fun.

Also fun: transmogrifying peddlers, treasure trove.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2016, 05:58:12 pm »
+9

Magpies run out very very quickly.
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Psyduck

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2016, 06:07:53 pm »
+4

With Dungeon, weak trashing is enough to play your key card(s) frequently.
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2016, 06:27:26 pm »
+3

...Dungeon... is enough to play your key card(s) frequently.

Tbh
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Polk5440

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2016, 07:07:18 pm »
+9

... I've learned that I need to read Adventures cards very carefully.
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2016, 07:16:58 pm »
0

raid is good ever; alms is mediocre ever
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2016, 07:22:44 pm »
+4

I learned that you have to discard Wine Merchant from your mat after you finish buying stuff, assuming you have $2 left over. Discarding your Wine Merchants will immediately end your turn.

I'm glad I learned this now against the AI than embarrass myself later.
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2016, 07:49:51 pm »
+8

I learned that there are lots of players who were completely oblivious to Adventures' existence prior to it showing up online. Like, for all I know they have no idea Dominion is a physical card game.
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2016, 07:58:07 pm »
+8

I learned that even when I think I know what I'm doing, I still have no clue how to play with these cards.
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2016, 08:02:20 pm »
0

I also learned players, not just bots, like to empty the ports really fast.
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2016, 08:02:38 pm »
0

I've learned that despite not having nearly as much experience with Adventures as I do with the other expansions, I'm still way better at it than most people. Let's see how long that lasts  ;)

LastFootnote

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2016, 08:22:02 pm »
0

My rating is temporarily going way up. Yay?
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Kirian

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2016, 09:29:59 pm »
+1

I learned that there are lots of players who were completely oblivious to Adventures' existence prior to it showing up online. Like, for all I know they have no idea Dominion is a physical card game.

Right?  "What are these new cards?  I've never seen these!"
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mameluke

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2016, 10:43:48 pm »
+6

Apparently you can call Duplicate when gaining a Curse from Witch.
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2016, 01:49:01 am »
0

I don't know if it is a bug or not, seems like one. If a card has trashing token on it, i can't put any other token with teacher. However, if the card has e.g. +1 card token, i can put trashing token on it. What is correct? Can the card have two tokens?
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2016, 01:50:34 am »
+1

And also i learned, that if you want to put +1 token on a card that has +1 action token, you need to remove +1 action token first. Inconvenient :)
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ConMan

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2016, 02:01:05 am »
+1

I don't know if it is a bug or not, seems like one. If a card has trashing token on it, i can't put any other token with teacher. However, if the card has e.g. +1 card token, i can put trashing token on it. What is correct? Can the card have two tokens?
Teacher specifically says you may put your +1 Card, Action, $ or Buy token on a Supply pile that doesn't have *any* of your tokens on it. So while it can't move your Trashing or -$2 Cost tokens, they do prevent you from putting more tokens on with Teacher. However, if you put the +1 Card token on with teacher, you could then use Plan to put your Trashing token on it (or Pathfinding to put your +1 Card token, etc.)
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Titandrake

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2016, 02:09:15 am »
0

You can't put a token on an empty supply pile, so you should make sure you get that token *before* you buy out the actions...
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2016, 02:21:06 am »
+2

You can't put a token on an empty supply pile, so you should make sure you get that token *before* you buy out the actions...

I thought that this interaction was just for Seaway, which gains a card from a pile and puts your +buy token on that pile, and there's no such restriction for e.g., Teacher or the events like Lost Arts.
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