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[Harley_Beckett]

Just played my first Haunted Woods game. Boy, weird card. There's a lot of things I'm learning about Adventures by having the interface make me do things -- like even if I have more than one buy, after the very first buy I have to put my whole hand on top of my deck. Matters for things like Farmland -- very interesting!

Inspired by the post by the above user, I thought it might be helpful to have a thread devoted to all the interesting interactions and occurances players are discovering now there is an online implementation of Adventures, and we're not reliant on our own, fallible, interpretation of the rules IRL.

For my part, I discovered yesterday that if Page/Peasant is in the Black Market, then the relevant upgrade cards will appear in the kingdom, as per the setup rules, but there will be no way to access them because there is no pile to return the Page/Peasant to to exchange.  How odd!

[drsteelhammer]

Playing BoM as a reserve cards works... until you would like to call it.

[Awaclus]

For my part, I discovered yesterday that if Page/Peasant is in the Black Market, then the relevant upgrade cards will appear in the kingdom, as per the setup rules, but there will be no way to access them because there is no pile to return the Page/Peasant to to exchange.  How odd!

I discovered that exact same thing a few minutes ago. It's not like I even wanted to have that Witch when I could get a strictly-worse-than-Herbalist instead!

[assemble_me]

You never want to click "play all treasures" when there's Save on the board

Also: You probably want to play all treasures instead of ending your turn 

[Harley_Beckett]

You never want to click "play all tresures" when there's Save on the board

Ditto for if you want to buy something you've got your trashing token on and trash out a spare copper!

[drsteelhammer]

Also, MMF was pretty damn convenient and it's a pain to play without it.

[markus]

I'm not sure whether I learnt something about the rules or about a bug. 

Correct me if I'm wrong: If I buy Travelling Fair and then some other card and I use Duplicate to gain a copy of the latter, I should be able to topdeck both cards?

But: When I buy the first card, the client offers me to topdeck or to call Duplicate. If I choose to duplicate, I can then topdeck the second card, but the first one goes automatically to discard. If I choose to topdeck first instead, it doesn’t allow to duplicate afterwards.

(It would have been slightly more convenient to have both treasure maps on top than one on top and one in the discard pile. )

[Deadlock39]

Yeah, for sure you should be able to topdeck both.

[-Stef-]

I'm not sure whether I learnt something about the rules or about a bug. 

Correct me if I'm wrong: If I buy Travelling Fair and then some other card and I use Duplicate to gain a copy of the latter, I should be able to topdeck both cards?

You should, but also have to be careful.

But: When I buy the first card, the client offers me to topdeck or to call Duplicate.

And rightfully so. You have two things that respond to when-gain, so you have to choose the order.

If I choose to duplicate, I can then topdeck the second card, but the first one goes automatically to discard.

This is also correct. Travelling fair has lost track of the first card after something got put on top of it.

If I choose to topdeck first instead, it doesn’t allow to duplicate afterwards.

That is wrong. You should be able to duplicate it.

[markus]

I too thought it should work, because both gain-effects happen at the same time.

Interestingly, I had "lost-track" in mind, but I thought that the first option would be rather the way to go. In any case, I tried it again and neither way it's possible to topdeck both with the client.

If I choose to duplicate, I can then topdeck the second card, but the first one goes automatically to discard.

This is also correct. Travelling fair has lost track of the first card after something got put on top of it.

Why or where is there something "put on top"? Edit: I guess in the discard pile because the second one according to the rules (unlike the visual implementation) goes there first.

[Seprix]

Mission and Cultist is the biggest dick move you can do to someone in Dominion. You can give upwards of 6 Ruins in both your turns.

Cultist Treasure Trove is even crueler. You don't have to stop to build up at all.

[amoffett11]

These are my first games ever with Adventures Cards, so I'm avoiding playing Rated games until I've got a handle on most of these cards.  I've played a bunch of games with a friend of mine, but have also been playing through the campaigns. 

The campaigns are a pretty good way to learn about the cards and to figure out how certain cards might fit into an engine, when to use Card A and to avoid Card B, and when the opposite is true.  However:  as advertised, the AI in the campaigns is not very good.  For all the other expansions, the AI would be really easy the first few levels, but then would at least become challenging once you've hit the 9th or 10th stage of each Act.  Not so in Adventures.  I've yet to have the AI opponent push me at all; at least in the other expansions the AI would play Council Room BM, so you'd be forced to not pick a strategy that's too slow to set up. 

The most annoying thing the AI does is with Port:  I'll settle on my engine, decide what pieces I need to focus on and what cards I need to get them, this card for trashing, etc, and leave the Ports until I need them.  Oops, the Ports are gone already.  It's not uncommon to watch the CPU play Port, play another Port, play 4 coppers, buy a Port and gain another.  Next turn:  play 3 or 4 ports and buy another Port.  It's annoying because A) The AI's deck full of Ports is bad and offers no challenge  B)  I needed 4 Ports or so to make this engine work, and now there's none.  So I still beat the opponents decks easily, but I didn't get my engine going 100% to do it.  This is especially annoying in the 3 player games. 

[drsteelhammer]

Mission and Cultist is the biggest dick move you can do to someone in Dominion. You can give upwards of 6 Ruins in both your turns.

Cultist Treasure Trove is even crueler. You don't have to stop to build up at all.

Have you somehow played my game? I just played a game with those three cards. Though I won by ignoring Cultists

[Seprix]

Mission and Cultist is the biggest dick move you can do to someone in Dominion. You can give upwards of 6 Ruins in both your turns.

Cultist Treasure Trove is even crueler. You don't have to stop to build up at all.

Have you somehow played my game? I just played a game with those three cards. Though I won by ignoring Cultists

You might have played me. I opened 5/2, and even though Vineyard was on the board, I went against my instincts and decided to give him ruins anyways. Well, he had all 10 ruins in his deck, but 5 Hirelings in play, so I was pretty much screwed. :p

[-Stef-]

I'm not sure whether I learnt something about the rules or about a bug. 

Correct me if I'm wrong: If I buy Travelling Fair and then some other card and I use Duplicate to gain a copy of the latter, I should be able to topdeck both cards?

You should, but also have to be careful.

But: When I buy the first card, the client offers me to topdeck or to call Duplicate.

And rightfully so. You have two things that respond to when-gain, so you have to choose the order.

If I choose to duplicate, I can then topdeck the second card, but the first one goes automatically to discard.

This is also correct. Travelling fair has lost track of the first card after something got put on top of it.

If I choose to topdeck first instead, it doesn’t allow to duplicate afterwards.

That is wrong. You should be able to duplicate it.

This is what is bothering me here. Assume the bug actually gets fixed, or you play on a system where this bug doesn't exist.

When playing IRL, there are two likely scenario's:
a) nobody knows the details about the lose-track-rule, and you just topdeck both.
b) somebody knows the rules but isn't a jerk, and explains to you how to topdeck both.
-> so either way, you end up with both cards on top of your deck.

When playing on a computer, it's actually very likely you don't know the rules and the computer is being a jerk about it and you don't get two cards on top.

Is this something we'd want to "solve"? And if so, how?

[werothegreat]

In your implementation you could have warning tooltips telling you what will happen if you pick different choices. You can have the option of ignoring tooltips you've seen before.

[markus]

In that particular example, there is no hidden information (as long as you don't buy e.g. IGG). So you could have an undo button as well.

Or have a warning when you want to call Duplicate that this will prevent the other card from being topdecked. (And have the option to have this warning generally be turned off for the pros.  )

[ThetaSigma12]

You never want to click "play all tresures" when there's Save on the board

Ditto for if you want to buy something you've got your trashing token on and trash out a spare copper!

How many times have you opened 5/2 with Alms, and hit play all treasures?
That's why I play IRL .

[Deadlock39]

Is there any point in allowing the user to "lose track" here?  The topdecking is optional, so I would think in this situation it makes sense to just restrict the legal but pointless move, and require the user to topdeck or not before allowing Duplicate to be called.

Unfortunately, that type of exception is probably next to impossible to code in a way that doesn't just suck, so it isn't a very good suggestion.

Maybe the game can know there is a potential move pending for a card, and if the user makes a selection that would cause that card to be lost, it would warn them that their decision will make that option no longer possible and give them the option to execute the move.

e.g.
Buy Traveling Fair
Buy/Gain Treasure Map  (options for Duplicate and Top Deck are present)
Click on Duplicate
   ->"Duplicating will cause Traveling Fair to lose track of Treasure Map"
      "Would you like to: [Top Deck Treasure Map]   [Continue with Duplicate]"

[ben_king]

In your implementation you could have warning tooltips telling you what will happen if you pick different choices. You can have the option of ignoring tooltips you've seen before.

It would probably be impossible to cover even close to all the scenarios, but it would be great if the client gave warnings (warnings that can be disabled) that say things like "It looks like you're trying to Summon a Death Cart.  This may not work in the way you're intending. [maybe more explanation here]  Do you want to undo buying Summon?"

[pingpongsam]

In your implementation you could have warning tooltips telling you what will happen if you pick different choices. You can have the option of ignoring tooltips you've seen before.

It would probably be impossible to cover even close to all the scenarios, but it would be great if the client gave warnings (warnings that can be disabled) that say things like "It looks like you're trying to Summon a Death Cart.  This may not work in the way you're intending. [maybe more explanation here]  Do you want to undo buying Summon?"

I disagree with this. Partly because all the scenarios cannot be covered but mostly because the primary purpose of the engine is to play out interactions correctly and let the player learn from their misunderstanding of how it should have happened. This is what makes good players great. I mean, the next logical step is not just prevent the user from making a dumb play but to point the user towards the smart plays (e.g. you should buy a watchtower before doing X).

The thread topic is a perfect example. This is what people have learned as opposed to have been taught or handheld through.

[ben_king]

I disagree with this. Partly because all the scenarios cannot be covered but mostly because the primary purpose of the engine is to play out interactions correctly and let the player learn from their misunderstanding of how it should have happened. This is what makes good players great. I mean, the next logical step is not just prevent the user from making a dumb play but to point the user towards the smart plays (e.g. you should buy a watchtower before doing X).

The thread topic is a perfect example. This is what people have learned as opposed to have been taught or handheld through.

With Goko/Making Fun, you never know if it's an obscure rule or a bug.

[-Stef-]

In your implementation you could have warning tooltips telling you what will happen if you pick different choices. You can have the option of ignoring tooltips you've seen before.

It would probably be impossible to cover even close to all the scenarios, but it would be great if the client gave warnings (warnings that can be disabled) that say things like "It looks like you're trying to Summon a Death Cart.  This may not work in the way you're intending. [maybe more explanation here]  Do you want to undo buying Summon?"

I disagree with this. Partly because all the scenarios cannot be covered but mostly because the primary purpose of the engine is to play out interactions correctly and let the player learn from their misunderstanding of how it should have happened. This is what makes good players great. I mean, the next logical step is not just prevent the user from making a dumb play but to point the user towards the smart plays (e.g. you should buy a watchtower before doing X).

The thread topic is a perfect example. This is what people have learned as opposed to have been taught or handheld through.

Hmm, I don't think I agree with you here. The primary purpose of the engine is to let the players have fun playing a game. And second, I hope that the difference between good players and top players will (continue) to be a better understanding of strategies and tactical moves, not a better understanding of the rules or how to prevent misclicks.

I haven't kept track, but I can safely assume I played >99% of my IRL games in a friendly setting and <1% in a tournament setting. In those tournament games I would in some sense consider it fair that I don't end up with both cards on top of my deck if I don't understand the rules well enough. But there is no way that would happen in a friendly game. Just because we're playing on a computer now, I don't necessarily want that to change.

I guess an important question is how much fun is spoiled for a casual player that doesn't end up with both cards on his deck and doesn't understand why (and probably his opponent can't explain it either). markus decided to ask here and got an answer; assuming that it could be a bug probably helped him. But for most players it would just end with frustration.
We could at least try to mitigate that situation somewhat by making the log report any instance of lose-track ("Traveling Fair now loses track of your Treasure Map because another card is put on top of it)

In your implementation you could have warning tooltips telling you what will happen if you pick different choices. You can have the option of ignoring tooltips you've seen before.

While I wouldn't mind (the option of enabling) such tooltips, it does require an actual algorithm to determine when to warn the user about what, and so far I don't have an idea that actually works. You certainly don't want a tooltip popping up for every choice you make.

[werothegreat]

"Traveling Fair now loses track of your Treasure Map because another card is put on top of it

I like this.  +1 this.

[mameluke]

In your implementation you could have warning tooltips telling you what will happen if you pick different choices. You can have the option of ignoring tooltips you've seen before.

It would probably be impossible to cover even close to all the scenarios, but it would be great if the client gave warnings (warnings that can be disabled) that say things like "It looks like you're trying to Summon a Death Cart.  This may not work in the way you're intending. [maybe more explanation here]  Do you want to undo buying Summon?"

[Jeebus]

For my part, I discovered yesterday that if Page/Peasant is in the Black Market, then the relevant upgrade cards will appear in the kingdom, as per the setup rules, but there will be no way to access them because there is no pile to return the Page/Peasant to to exchange.  How odd!

Sounds like a bug. There is absolutely no reason to include Traveller upgrade cards when there's no way to get them, it just creates confusion.

[Awaclus]

For my part, I discovered yesterday that if Page/Peasant is in the Black Market, then the relevant upgrade cards will appear in the kingdom, as per the setup rules, but there will be no way to access them because there is no pile to return the Page/Peasant to to exchange.  How odd!

Sounds like a bug. There is absolutely no reason to include Traveller upgrade cards when there's no way to get them, it just creates confusion.

It's how the rules actually are though.

[Ankenaut]

I'm not sure whether I learnt something about the rules or about a bug. 

Correct me if I'm wrong: If I buy Travelling Fair and then some other card and I use Duplicate to gain a copy of the latter, I should be able to topdeck both cards?

You should, but also have to be careful.

But: When I buy the first card, the client offers me to topdeck or to call Duplicate.

And rightfully so. You have two things that respond to when-gain, so you have to choose the order.

If I choose to duplicate, I can then topdeck the second card, but the first one goes automatically to discard.

This is also correct. Travelling fair has lost track of the first card after something got put on top of it.

If I choose to topdeck first instead, it doesn’t allow to duplicate afterwards.

That is wrong. You should be able to duplicate it.

This is what is bothering me here. Assume the bug actually gets fixed, or you play on a system where this bug doesn't exist.

When playing IRL, there are two likely scenario's:
a) nobody knows the details about the lose-track-rule, and you just topdeck both.
b) somebody knows the rules but isn't a jerk, and explains to you how to topdeck both.
-> so either way, you end up with both cards on top of your deck.

When playing on a computer, it's actually very likely you don't know the rules and the computer is being a jerk about it and you don't get two cards on top.

Is this something we'd want to "solve"? And if so, how?

What if there were some kind of optional "undo" button that you could use in casual matchups that would allow you to undo a few moves so you can try changing the order of something, un-playing a treasure, etc.? Obviously, it would be very limited since anytime you'd draw a card, trigger a reaction, etc., you'd gain unfair information if it were undone. I'm sure that would be a nightmare to code, but it's a thought.

[Titandrake]

Plan + Gear is a pretty great opening. Doing that into Gear-BM got me 4 Colonies in 13 turns.

Raid + Feodum is pretty good. We emptied the Silver pile very quickly.

[JW]

Be careful when it's the start of your turn as there's a lot more going on.  Don't accidentally discard cards you want to play to your duration Dungeon, or forget to call your reserve card like Ratcatcher before playing your first action of the turn.

Ratcatcher-Guide is a combo, refill your hand after trashing a card, or hunt for those curses to trash in your second hand.

[Donald X.]

Hmm, I don't think I agree with you here. The primary purpose of the engine is to let the players have fun playing a game. And second, I hope that the difference between good players and top players will (continue) to be a better understanding of strategies and tactical moves, not a better understanding of the rules or how to prevent misclicks.

Yes, there is zero intentional "know arcane rules." Ideally there would be no lose-track rule. There is plenty of game in the game.

While I wouldn't mind (the option of enabling) such tooltips, it does require an actual algorithm to determine when to warn the user about what, and so far I don't have an idea that actually works. You certainly don't want a tooltip popping up for every choice you make.

Let's see. The key thing is that two effects can be chosen between, where one effect can move a card (thus it can be messed up via losing track of it), and the other effect can cause a card to be lost track of. You can lose track of a card via moving it another way, or covering it up. Or, if it's on top of your deck, shuffling, which can be caused by drawing cards or looking at them etc.

If both effects move the card, it seems like people should figure out that the card can only go one place. I don't think that needs a warning.

Effects can have other effects feed off of them. Maybe you have "When you gain a card, take a coin token" and "When you get a coin token, +1 Card." You Travelling Fair, then Summon a Nomad Camp. This is just trying to be an example of it being difficult to identify that the order will matter. We are ordering Travelling Fair vs. taking a coin token; what could go wrong? In practice this may not be much of an issue; direct effects will be way more common. Losing track of a normal gained card is also more common than losing track of a card gained to somewhere else.

I guess, if you are choosing between two effects, and one moves a card while the other either involves the discard pile - gain a card, discard a card, take a card from discard pile - then you could note that moving a card can fail if the card is lost track of.

- if a trigger window corresponds to a card, e.g. "when you gain"
- and two+ things can happen
- and one moves the card
- and another interacts with a discard pile, including gaining cards
- then provide the hint: note that if you don't do this (move-effect) first, it may not be possible

[Max]

The main thing I've learned is: guide synergises with everything.

Miser, ratcatcher, key cards without a village, thin deck of 7/8 cards, a large deck which needs lots of cycling, the travellers, an engine which needs two opening cards in collision, when greening, when building, and opponent discard attacks (particularly ghost ship)
The only thing it doesn't synergise with is itself, because you need other cards. But my god is that card fun.

Also fun: transmogrifying peddlers, treasure trove.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Magpies run out very very quickly.

[Psyduck]

With Dungeon, weak trashing is enough to play your key card(s) frequently.

[A Drowned Kernel]

...Dungeon... is enough to play your key card(s) frequently.

Tbh

[Polk5440]

... I've learned that I need to read Adventures cards very carefully.

[schadd]

raid is good ever; alms is mediocre ever

[markusin]

I learned that you have to discard Wine Merchant from your mat after you finish buying stuff, assuming you have $2 left over. Discarding your Wine Merchants will immediately end your turn.

I'm glad I learned this now against the AI than embarrass myself later.

[LastFootnote]

I learned that there are lots of players who were completely oblivious to Adventures' existence prior to it showing up online. Like, for all I know they have no idea Dominion is a physical card game.

[Beyond Awesome]

I learned that even when I think I know what I'm doing, I still have no clue how to play with these cards.

[Beyond Awesome]

I also learned players, not just bots, like to empty the ports really fast.

[J Reggie]

I've learned that despite not having nearly as much experience with Adventures as I do with the other expansions, I'm still way better at it than most people. Let's see how long that lasts 

[LastFootnote]

My rating is temporarily going way up. Yay?

[Kirian]

I learned that there are lots of players who were completely oblivious to Adventures' existence prior to it showing up online. Like, for all I know they have no idea Dominion is a physical card game.

Right?  "What are these new cards?  I've never seen these!"

[mameluke]

Apparently you can call Duplicate when gaining a Curse from Witch.

[LaLight]

I don't know if it is a bug or not, seems like one. If a card has trashing token on it, i can't put any other token with teacher. However, if the card has e.g. +1 card token, i can put trashing token on it. What is correct? Can the card have two tokens?

[LaLight]

And also i learned, that if you want to put +1 token on a card that has +1 action token, you need to remove +1 action token first. Inconvenient

[ConMan]

I don't know if it is a bug or not, seems like one. If a card has trashing token on it, i can't put any other token with teacher. However, if the card has e.g. +1 card token, i can put trashing token on it. What is correct? Can the card have two tokens?

Teacher specifically says you may put your +1 Card, Action, $ or Buy token on a Supply pile that doesn't have *any* of your tokens on it. So while it can't move your Trashing or -$2 Cost tokens, they do prevent you from putting more tokens on with Teacher. However, if you put the +1 Card token on with teacher, you could then use Plan to put your Trashing token on it (or Pathfinding to put your +1 Card token, etc.)

[Titandrake]

You can't put a token on an empty supply pile, so you should make sure you get that token *before* you buy out the actions...

[JW]

You can't put a token on an empty supply pile, so you should make sure you get that token *before* you buy out the actions...

I thought that this interaction was just for Seaway, which gains a card from a pile and puts your +buy token on that pile, and there's no such restriction for e.g., Teacher or the events like Lost Arts.

[Beyond Awesome]

You can't put a token on an empty supply pile, so you should make sure you get that token *before* you buy out the actions...

I thought that this interaction was just for Seaway, which gains a card from a pile and puts your +buy token on that pile, and there's no such restriction for e.g., Teacher or the events like Lost Arts.

This is correct. Tokens can go on bought out piles unless it is Inheritance or Seaway which gains a card from said pile.

[Titandrake]

You can't put a token on an empty supply pile, so you should make sure you get that token *before* you buy out the actions...

I thought that this interaction was just for Seaway, which gains a card from a pile and puts your +buy token on that pile, and there's no such restriction for e.g., Teacher or the events like Lost Arts.

Actually, I realize the issue. In this game, we both put the Ferry token on Baker. We then tried to put a token onto Baker with Teacher and couldn't, but that's because it already had a Ferry token on it.

The official rules say that tokens can go on empty piles, so my post is completely wrong.

[Burning Skull]

I played >99% of my IRL games

Stef plays IRL Dominion? What a monster!

[Beyond Awesome]

I learned that there are lots of players who were completely oblivious to Adventures' existence prior to it showing up online. Like, for all I know they have no idea Dominion is a physical card game.

A lot of people who even play irl don't know Adventures exist. After Dark Ages and Guilds, a lot of people seemed to get out of Dominion. I actually bought two "complete" sets from people who got out of Dominion. It ends up Adventures was missing from both of those sets.

It's a shame. Adventures is a great expansion. Well, hopefully, it being online raises awareness for it.

[Petrovic]

I played a game yesterday where both my inheritance token and my +1 action token were on misers. When I played a miser I got +1 action. When I played an estate, I got to use the abilities of the miser, but did not get +1 action. Is this according to the rules or is it an error in programming?

[Seprix]

I played a game yesterday where both my inheritance token and my +1 action token were on misers. When I played a miser I got +1 action. When I played an estate, I got to use the abilities of the miser, but did not get +1 action. Is this according to the rules or is it an error in programming?

From the rule book: Your Estates only copy abilities and types; they do not copy cost, name, or what pile they are from (thus they don't trigger tokens like +1 Action on the copied pile.

However, an interesting and unrelated thing to note is, according to the rules, you should be able to set aside Inherited Estates with Prince. The Estate becomes Action-Victory when you Inherit it, because Estates would copy the type of the card (but not the cost). Both Estates and Prince can use $4 Action cards or below, but it's still something useful to note.

However, don't start thinking you can gain Estates with Universities. Inherited Estates are not triggered until they are yours. There are all sorts of rules complications with this, but the owning Estates bit and the Abilities and Type only being gained by Estate is the basic gist of Inheritance.

Seriously, guys. Inheritance is going to give people headaches. I understand the card, but it took me like 10 minutes to get everything about it. :p

[werothegreat]

Was playing a bot game, Saved a Copper, then the bot played Militia.  I stared at my screen for a minute muttering "I already discarded two cards, why do I have to discard more?" clearly staring at 4 cards in my hand.

[papadjango]

I had a wonderful expierence yestery with ferry and lost arts on goons!
A mini-engine with just goons is very fine!

[Qvist]

So, I just transmogrified for a Nomad Camp and it landed on top of my deck, I should be able to choose where I put it, as both trigger at the same time, right?

[Jeebus]

For my part, I discovered yesterday that if Page/Peasant is in the Black Market, then the relevant upgrade cards will appear in the kingdom, as per the setup rules, but there will be no way to access them because there is no pile to return the Page/Peasant to to exchange.  How odd!

Sounds like a bug. There is absolutely no reason to include Traveller upgrade cards when there's no way to get them, it just creates confusion.

It's how the rules actually are though.

Do you mean because it says "If Page or Peasant is being used in a game..."?
That's clearly not the intention though. It's like the definition for when an Estate is yours (for example). It's not 100% accurate, but we get the intention.
The intention, and the rule, is that you include non-Kingdom cards when there is a possibility of gaining them.

[werothegreat]

So, I just transmogrified for a Nomad Camp and it landed on top of my deck, I should be able to choose where I put it, as both trigger at the same time, right?

...yes.  Well, they're not triggers.  They're changes to the gain location.  And you pick which one takes precedence.

[assemble_me]

I found it impossible to Royal Carriage my Disciple last night. Probably there's some way to do it right, it's not intuitive 

[LastFootnote]

So, I just transmogrified for a Nomad Camp and it landed on top of my deck, I should be able to choose where I put it, as both trigger at the same time, right?

...yes.  Well, they're not triggers.  They're changes to the gain location.  And you pick which one takes precedence.

Actually I think Transmogrify should trump Nomad Camp. Nomad Camp just has a different default gain destination, and anything else overrides that. Similarly, you cannot normally choose to put Transmogrified cards in your discard pile.

[werothegreat]

I found it impossible to Royal Carriage my Disciple last night. Probably there's some way to do it right, it's not intuitive 

Disciple doesn't finish resolving until you finish resolving what it played twice.  There should be a tooltip asking if you want to call RC on the twice-played card, then you can hit "done", then there should be a tooltip asking if you want to call RC on the Disciple.  If not, yell at MF.

[drsteelhammer]

Another thing: If your plan is to win by a 3-pile which includes pages, do not mindlessly click "resolve all" after the pileout if you have four pages in play....

[Awaclus]

You probably want to play your Treasures before buying Borrow.

[markus]

So, I just transmogrified for a Nomad Camp and it landed on top of my deck, I should be able to choose where I put it, as both trigger at the same time, right?

...yes.  Well, they're not triggers.  They're changes to the gain location.  And you pick which one takes precedence.

Actually I think Transmogrify should trump Nomad Camp. Nomad Camp just has a different default gain destination, and anything else overrides that. Similarly, you cannot normally choose to put Transmogrified cards in your discard pile.

Doesn't it get gained first, and then you put it in the hand? And once NC is put on top of the deck, "lose track" applies such that it doesn't end up in your hand?

[LastFootnote]

So, I just transmogrified for a Nomad Camp and it landed on top of my deck, I should be able to choose where I put it, as both trigger at the same time, right?

...yes.  Well, they're not triggers.  They're changes to the gain location.  And you pick which one takes precedence.

Actually I think Transmogrify should trump Nomad Camp. Nomad Camp just has a different default gain destination, and anything else overrides that. Similarly, you cannot normally choose to put Transmogrified cards in your discard pile.

Doesn't it get gained first, and then you put it in the hand? And once NC is put on top of the deck, "lose track" applies such that it doesn't end up in your hand?

I believe the intent with Transmogrify is that the gained card does not visit your discard pile (or in this case your deck). But even if Nomad Camp did land on your deck, Transmogrify could find it; see the similar ruling for Summon.

[Beyond Awesome]

I found it impossible to Royal Carriage my Disciple last night. Probably there's some way to do it right, it's not intuitive 

Disciple doesn't finish resolving until you finish resolving what it played twice.  There should be a tooltip asking if you want to call RC on the twice-played card, then you can hit "done", then there should be a tooltip asking if you want to call RC on the Disciple.  If not, yell at MF.

That's how it works. It's just not very intuitively set up.

[Philothea]

For my part, I discovered yesterday that if Page/Peasant is in the Black Market, then the relevant upgrade cards will appear in the kingdom, as per the setup rules, but there will be no way to access them because there is no pile to return the Page/Peasant to to exchange.  How odd!

Thanks for this. It had me baffled yesterday, I thought it was a bug.

[Philothea]

For my part, I discovered yesterday that if Page/Peasant is in the Black Market, then the relevant upgrade cards will appear in the kingdom, as per the setup rules, but there will be no way to access them because there is no pile to return the Page/Peasant to to exchange.  How odd!

Sounds like a bug. There is absolutely no reason to include Traveller upgrade cards when there's no way to get them, it just creates confusion.

Well, they put Treasure Map in BM decks which is useless without a second one. You just ignore it in the BM deck but sometimes newbies fall for it.

[Jeebus]

Nomad Camp and Transmogrify do indeed have the same timing, and you should be able to choose whether Nomad Camp goes to your deck or your hand.

[Jeebus]

For my part, I discovered yesterday that if Page/Peasant is in the Black Market, then the relevant upgrade cards will appear in the kingdom, as per the setup rules, but there will be no way to access them because there is no pile to return the Page/Peasant to to exchange.  How odd!

Sounds like a bug. There is absolutely no reason to include Traveller upgrade cards when there's no way to get them, it just creates confusion.

Well, they put Treasure Map in BM decks which is useless without a second one. You just ignore it in the BM deck but sometimes newbies fall for it.

Yes... I never said that Traveller cards should not be in the BM deck.

[werothegreat]

So, I just transmogrified for a Nomad Camp and it landed on top of my deck, I should be able to choose where I put it, as both trigger at the same time, right?

...yes.  Well, they're not triggers.  They're changes to the gain location.  And you pick which one takes precedence.

Actually I think Transmogrify should trump Nomad Camp. Nomad Camp just has a different default gain destination, and anything else overrides that. Similarly, you cannot normally choose to put Transmogrified cards in your discard pile.

Doesn't it get gained first, and then you put it in the hand? And once NC is put on top of the deck, "lose track" applies such that it doesn't end up in your hand?

I believe the intent with Transmogrify is that the gained card does not visit your discard pile (or in this case your deck). But even if Nomad Camp did land on your deck, Transmogrify could find it; see the similar ruling for Summon.

Any card that gains a card, and gains them to somewhere other than your discard, the gained card does not visit your discard.  Making a full article on this is on my list of things to do for the wiki.

[LastFootnote]

Nomad Camp and Transmogrify do indeed have the same timing, and you should be able to choose whether Nomad Camp goes to your deck or your hand.

But they don't!

[JW]

The Silver-gaining from Treasure Hunter really slows down the plan to use Warriors for draw. Also, be very careful about misclicking and turning all of your Warriors into Heros once you've already played Champion.

If you don't own any sets, Adventures is a much better purchase because lots of people who own all sets besides Adventures will want to play with you, so with a little effort spent on match-making you can get lots of games with all sets.

[Seprix]

You can buy multiple Balls a turn, and still only get penalized once.

[Psyduck]

Possession kind of counters Swamp Hag, in the sense that your opponent's Swamp Hag effect ends when you possess him, because it's his next turn then.

[Chris is me]

Fun MF fact: Excluding Adventures from the randomizer does not exclude it from the Black Market deck! That made for a fun League game against an opponent who didn't want Adventures.

[LastFootnote]

Fun MF fact: Excluding Adventures from the randomizer does not exclude it from the Black Market deck! That made for a fun League game against an opponent who didn't want Adventures.

My first game post-update had zero Adventures cards or Events (despite me biasing towards Adventures), but it did have Adventures cards in the Black Market deck. My opponent played a Black Market and asked, "WTF is a Wine Merchant"? They accidentally bought it when trying to figure out what it did.

[JW]

Fun MF fact: Excluding Adventures from the randomizer does not exclude it from the Black Market deck! That made for a fun League game against an opponent who didn't want Adventures.

As of pre-Adventures, the Black Market was chosen from all cards whether you had purchased them or not. If that's still true, which I haven't checked, then even people who don't purchase Adventures will get to play some of its cards. One more reason to love Black Market.

Edit: this is still true. I see Adventures cards in the Black Market in a game against a bot despite not having purchased the set. Unfortunately, without the Making More Fun mod laying out the cards in your hand better, Black Market engines are very annoying to play because it becomes impossible to see the cards in your hand when you have too many uniques!

[E.Honda]

For my part, I discovered yesterday that if Page/Peasant is in the Black Market, then the relevant upgrade cards will appear in the kingdom, as per the setup rules, but there will be no way to access them because there is no pile to return the Page/Peasant to to exchange.  How odd!

Sounds like a bug. There is absolutely no reason to include Traveller upgrade cards when there's no way to get them, it just creates confusion.

Well, they put Treasure Map in BM decks which is useless without a second one. You just ignore it in the BM deck but sometimes newbies fall for it.

Edge case: fairgrounds

[Kirian]

When planning to buy Save and something else, be certain to buy Save first if you only have one Buy.

[Haddock]

Miser/alms BM beats Journeyman/Alms BM.  Kinda didn't expect that.

[Seprix]

Mission is just insane if you have the tools to use it. Also figured out how to use the Dominion Salvager Prettifier.

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160505/log.0.1462465825862.txt

In this game, I had Remodel, Peddler, and Mission. I thinned down significantly, and then I got to the point where I could easily draw my whole deck. I ended up gaining 4 Provinces in a turn + Mission Turn as a result on Turn 15, winning handily. Always be extra careful with Mission on the board.

[LastFootnote]

Games with Borrow can go FAST.

That's 6 Provinces in 12 turns, in a deck with one Junk Dealer, one Explorer, and two Stables, plus Borrow to smooth out the $ amounts. "They can't all be the best $5" indeed.

[Jeebus]

Also figured out how to use the Dominion Salvager Prettifier.

How do you use it when there are Adventures cards? It always just freezes on "Parsing"...

[Seprix]

Also figured out how to use the Dominion Salvager Prettifier.

How do you use it when there are Adventures cards? It always just freezes on "Parsing"...

Not my problem. Go bother ragingduckd or nutki.

[werothegreat]

Games with Borrow can go FAST.

That's 6 Provinces in 12 turns, in a deck with one Junk Dealer, one Explorer, and two Stables, plus Borrow to smooth out the $ amounts. "They can't all be the best $5" indeed.

Explorer can be quite powerful in the right deck. 

[Infthitbox]

Also figured out how to use the Dominion Salvager Prettifier.

How do you use it when there are Adventures cards? It always just freezes on "Parsing"...

Not my problem. Go bother ragingduckd or nutki.

yed merged my branch that includes Adventures support earlier today, so it the prettifier works now with Adventures cards, Events now show up in the kingdom viewer, and you can search Adventures cards in the log search.

[LastFootnote]

Also figured out how to use the Dominion Salvager Prettifier.

How do you use it when there are Adventures cards? It always just freezes on "Parsing"...

Not my problem. Go bother ragingduckd or nutki.

yed merged my branch that includes Adventures support earlier today, so it the prettifier works now with Adventures cards, Events now show up in the kingdom viewer, and you can search Adventures cards in the log search.

Unfortunately it still gets stuck on "Parsing" for my log above. New cards in the log are Ratcatcher, Artificer, Haunted Woods, and Borrow.

[Infthitbox]

Also figured out how to use the Dominion Salvager Prettifier.

How do you use it when there are Adventures cards? It always just freezes on "Parsing"...

Not my problem. Go bother ragingduckd or nutki.

yed merged my branch that includes Adventures support earlier today, so it the prettifier works now with Adventures cards, Events now show up in the kingdom viewer, and you can search Adventures cards in the log search.

Unfortunately it still gets stuck on "Parsing" for my log above. New cards in the log are Ratcatcher, Artificer, Haunted Woods, and Borrow.

Interesting, I'll look into it.

[LastFootnote]

Also figured out how to use the Dominion Salvager Prettifier.

How do you use it when there are Adventures cards? It always just freezes on "Parsing"...

Not my problem. Go bother ragingduckd or nutki.

yed merged my branch that includes Adventures support earlier today, so it the prettifier works now with Adventures cards, Events now show up in the kingdom viewer, and you can search Adventures cards in the log search.

Unfortunately it still gets stuck on "Parsing" for my log above. New cards in the log are Ratcatcher, Artificer, Haunted Woods, and Borrow.

Interesting, I'll look into it.

Wait, which URL am I supposed to be using? gokosalvager gets stuck on "Parsing", but retrobox gets stuck on "Loading 4".

[Seprix]

Whichever one gets updates first, I guess.

[Infthitbox]

Huh, I got the notification he merged the branch. It doesn't look like the site has actually been updated though. Not sure then why Seprix's log is working with the prettifier, but Guide isn't colored in the log prettifier so it doesn't look like its actually got the new code and works because... magic?

[Seprix]

Huh, I got the notification he merged the branch. It doesn't look like the site has actually been updated though. Not sure then why Seprix's log is working with the prettifier, but Guide isn't colored in the log prettifier so it doesn't look like its actually got the new code and works because... magic?

Maybe it's because no one bought/used Guide.

[LastFootnote]

Huh, I got the notification he merged the branch. It doesn't look like the site has actually been updated though. Not sure then why Seprix's log is working with the prettifier, but Guide isn't colored in the log prettifier so it doesn't look like its actually got the new code and works because... magic?

It works now! Thanks!

[Philothea]

For my part, I discovered yesterday that if Page/Peasant is in the Black Market, then the relevant upgrade cards will appear in the kingdom, as per the setup rules, but there will be no way to access them because there is no pile to return the Page/Peasant to to exchange.  How odd!

Thanks for this. It had me baffled yesterday, I thought it was a bug.

Heard back from MF today, it is a bug and will be fixed in a future patch for Adventures bugs.

[drsteelhammer]

Kind of related to the Black Market thing: Does the button "Exclude cards I don't own" trump my wish to play with Adventures? Yesterday I had no Adventures cards in 2 out of 3 games, which seems very, very unlikely to have happened randomly.

[jsh357]

Kind of related to the Black Market thing: Does the button "Exclude cards I don't own" trump my wish to play with Adventures? Yesterday I had no Adventures cards in 2 out of 3 games, which seems very, very unlikely to have happened randomly.

I suspect something is up with this. I've been getting in a lot of games with no Adventures Kingdom cards but Events included, leading me to believe players I auto-match with are disallowing cards they don't own but Events are being stuck in regardless. However, it could just be randomness so I don't want to call this anything but a suspicion.

[drsteelhammer]

Kind of related to the Black Market thing: Does the button "Exclude cards I don't own" trump my wish to play with Adventures? Yesterday I had no Adventures cards in 2 out of 3 games, which seems very, very unlikely to have happened randomly.

I suspect something is up with this. I've been getting in a lot of games with no Adventures Kingdom cards but Events included, leading me to believe players I auto-match with are disallowing cards they don't own but Events are being stuck in regardless. However, it could just be randomness so I don't want to call this anything but a suspicion.

I even meant games with neither Events nor Kingdom cards. That 50 randomizers drawn out of 280(?). I haven't done the math, but it doesn't look very likely

[Davio]

Your sample size is too small, it's almost like saying "I had no Adventure cards in 1 out of 1 games".

[Accatitippi]

If you Prince a Traveller (say, a Warrior), the exchange UI won't differentiate between the princed Warrior and other Warriors you might have in play. This means that if you first choose to set aside the princed Warrior (as we all do), then you click once on exchange Warrior, it will try and fail to exchange the set-aside Warrior. Thus, you won't exchange anything, even though there was a Warrior in play that was ready to be exchanged. You need to click twice: fail to exchange the first, and then exchange the second.

[werothegreat]

If you Prince a Traveller (say, a Warrior), the exchange UI won't differentiate between the princed Warrior and other Warriors you might have in play. This means that if you first choose to set aside the princed Warrior (as we all do), then you click once on exchange Warrior, it will try and fail to exchange the set-aside Warrior. Thus, you won't exchange anything, even though there was a Warrior in play that was ready to be exchanged. You need to click twice: fail to exchange the first, and then exchange the second.

This is techinically following the rules, though certainly a bit irksome.

[Witherweaver]

I've learned that 'learnt' is equally valid as 'learned'.

[Joseph2302]

I've learned that 'learnt' is equally valid as 'learned'.

Only in American English, I believe.

[Accatitippi]

If you Prince a Traveller (say, a Warrior), the exchange UI won't differentiate between the princed Warrior and other Warriors you might have in play. This means that if you first choose to set aside the princed Warrior (as we all do), then you click once on exchange Warrior, it will try and fail to exchange the set-aside Warrior. Thus, you won't exchange anything, even though there was a Warrior in play that was ready to be exchanged. You need to click twice: fail to exchange the first, and then exchange the second.

This is techinically following the rules, though certainly a bit irksome.

The grand scheme follows the rules, but I believe the rules would let you choose which warrior to try and set aside first, while MF doesn't.
And instead it chooses for you the first one you played, which in this case is the one which will fail to be exchanged.

[drsteelhammer]

Today I learned that Making Fun lets me gain Disciples and Fugitives with Pilgrimage! How nice of them.

[werothegreat]

Today I learned that Making Fun lets me gain Disciples and Fugitives with Pilgrimage! How nice of them.

You know I had to tell them that Disciple can't gain Traveller upgrades?

[drsteelhammer]

Today I learned that Making Fun lets me gain Disciples and Fugitives with Pilgrimage! How nice of them.

You know I had to tell them that Disciple can't gain Traveller upgrades?

No, but if I had to bet on it, I would have bet that somebody had to have told them.

[Seprix]

I've learned that 'learnt' is equally valid as 'learned'.

Only in American English, I believe.

Instead of saying "anyway", you lot say "any road". Like that makes any sort of sense at all.

[E.Honda]

Today I learned that Making Fun lets me gain Disciples and Fugitives with Pilgrimage! How nice of them.

You know I had to tell them that Disciple can't gain Traveller upgrades?

I tried discipling my teacher in a game and was confused that it didnt Work since on the card it just says "you may play an Action card from your hand twice. Gain a copy of it."  So it seems that it's not restricted to supply cards, but when you look it up in the FAQ it is. I think it would be better if that were explicitly stated in the card Text, but it's too late for that apparently

[Awaclus]

Today I learned that Making Fun lets me gain Disciples and Fugitives with Pilgrimage! How nice of them.

You know I had to tell them that Disciple can't gain Traveller upgrades?

I tried discipling my teacher in a game and was confused that it didnt Work since on the card it just says "you may play an Action card from your hand twice. Gain a copy of it."  So it seems that it's not restricted to supply cards, but when you look it up in the FAQ it is. I think it would be better if that were explicitly stated in the card Text, but it's too late for that apparently

No, it needs to be explicitly stated in the text if you can gain from locations other than the Supply. When the location is not explicitly stated, it's always from the Supply.

[werothegreat]

Why would you want more than one Teacher, anyway?

[Witherweaver]

Why would you want more than one Teacher, anyway?

To not get hassled with a popup window to keep upgrading your Travellers. 

[Seprix]

Why would you want more than one Teacher, anyway?

[LastFootnote]

Today I learned that Making Fun lets me gain Disciples and Fugitives with Pilgrimage! How nice of them.

You know I had to tell them that Disciple can't gain Traveller upgrades?

I tried discipling my teacher in a game and was confused that it didnt Work since on the card it just says "you may play an Action card from your hand twice. Gain a copy of it."  So it seems that it's not restricted to supply cards, but when you look it up in the FAQ it is. I think it would be better if that were explicitly stated in the card Text, but it's too late for that apparently

All cards that say "gain" always mean from the Supply unless otherwise stated. You would have to add those words to like 1/3 of the cards in Dominion, probably more.

[E.Honda]

Today I learned that Making Fun lets me gain Disciples and Fugitives with Pilgrimage! How nice of them.

You know I had to tell them that Disciple can't gain Traveller upgrades?

I tried discipling my teacher in a game and was confused that it didnt Work since on the card it just says "you may play an Action card from your hand twice. Gain a copy of it."  So it seems that it's not restricted to supply cards, but when you look it up in the FAQ it is. I think it would be better if that were explicitly stated in the card Text, but it's too late for that apparently

All cards that say "gain" always mean from the Supply unless otherwise stated. You would have to add those words to like 1/3 of the cards in Dominion, probably more.

Yeah i guess youre right i never bothered trying to gain something that is not in the supply. With disciple you can play any card though so i thought the gaining bit would also apply to that, but that would be inconsistent

[Beyond Awesome]

I played a game today where I was using Coin of the Realm specifically to make Diadem worth more.

Also, Scheme loves + card token.

[JW]

Also, Scheme loves + card token.

What is this Alchemy you speak of?

[faust]

Swamp Hag doesn't distribute Curses when buying from the Black Market

[LastFootnote]

Swamp Hag doesn't distribute Curses when buying from the Black Market

It should.

[yuma]

Distant Lands is new favorite Alt VP.

Ball is my favorite Event.

 I have yet to really enjoy any of the cards/actions that use the Journey token. Even had a game that featured all three cards (MakingFun can't be truly randomizing these cards can they? I have yet to play a game that didn't feature at least two cards/events from Adventures).

Ratcatcher is probably favorite that uses the Tavern Mat.

^And of course the above is subject to change. Don't hold me to this a couple months down the road.

[mameluke]

If you have $7, and there's just one Province left (and you want it) -- buy Borrow!

[assemble_me]

Swamp Hag doesn't distribute Curses when buying from the Black Market

It should.

It did in the game I just played

[faust]

Swamp Hag doesn't distribute Curses when buying from the Black Market

It should.

It did in the game I just played

Looking at the log, it turns out that my opponent didn't actually buy something. But due to past performance, it seems I automatically assumed it more likely that MF got it wrong.

[Awaclus]

If you have $7, and there's just one Province left (and you want it) -- buy Borrow!

But play your Treasures first, because otherwise you might end up with just $1 and a -1 card token on your deck.

[Kirian]

The card Gear isn't gear as in machinery, but gear as in camping or military gear.  I hadn't looked closely at the artwork before.

[Witherweaver]

The card Gear isn't gear as in machinery, but gear as in camping or military gear.  I hadn't looked closely at the artwork before.

We talked about that already!

(link: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14821.0)

[werothegreat]

The card Gear isn't gear as in machinery, but gear as in camping or military gear.  I hadn't looked closely at the artwork before.

What would the machinery Gear have to do with Adventuring?

[mameluke]

Building an Engine, of course!

[Kirian]

The card Gear isn't gear as in machinery, but gear as in camping or military gear.  I hadn't looked closely at the artwork before.

What would the machinery Gear have to do with Adventuring?

Have you ever been a DM/GM?  The shit that PCs shove into their bags "just in case" is amazing.  1000 candles, bucket of lard, an entire handy haversack full of lamp oil... yeah, half a dozen cogwheels wouldn't be surprising at all.  Especially in Eberron.  Everyone remembers Eberron, right? <crickets>

[Awaclus]

Have you ever been a DM/GM?  The shit that PCs shove into their bags "just in case" is amazing.  1000 candles, bucket of lard, an entire handy haversack full of lamp oil... yeah, half a dozen cogwheels wouldn't be surprising at all.  Especially in Eberron.  Everyone remembers Eberron, right? <crickets>

Well, if you give the players something, they're naturally going to assume you're giving it to them because you have also designed a use for said item later on in the game.

[Kirian]

Have you ever been a DM/GM?  The shit that PCs shove into their bags "just in case" is amazing.  1000 candles, bucket of lard, an entire handy haversack full of lamp oil... yeah, half a dozen cogwheels wouldn't be surprising at all.  Especially in Eberron.  Everyone remembers Eberron, right? <crickets>

Well, if you give the players something, they're naturally going to assume you're giving it to them because you have also designed a use for said item later on in the game.

No man, this is stuff they bought in town.  Hard to tell them a city of 20k people wouldn't have those things for sale.

[Awaclus]

No man, this is stuff they bought in town.  Hard to tell them a city of 20k people wouldn't have those things for sale.

That's weird then. I usually play with much stingier players who never buy anything unless it's armor (myself included when I'm a player).

[LastFootnote]

No man, this is stuff they bought in town.  Hard to tell them a city of 20k people wouldn't have those things for sale.

That's weird then. I usually play with much stingier players who never buy anything unless it's armor (myself included when I'm a player).

You never know when you might need a crowbar.

[faust]

This time, I found a real bug!

Trade Route/Inheritance. If you gain Estates after inheriting, the Trade Route token is not removed from the pile, leading to this funny game where Estates are empty, but still have their token on them:

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160508/log.0.1462739875208.txt

[Haddock]

Unless I'm being thick, I think I'm right in saying that BoM as Gear should be discarded at end of turn if you didn't set aside any cards.  Correct?  In which case I should report that as a bug.

[Awaclus]

Unless I'm being thick, I think I'm right in saying that BoM as Gear should be discarded at end of turn if you didn't set aside any cards.  Correct?  In which case I should report that as a bug.

The funny thing is that with Making Fun, you can never be too careful with reporting bugs because you never know when they might actually implement the wrong rules as a result of your bug report.

[popsofctown]

I learned from playing adventures online that brand new cards doesn't improve my play experience in a way that will compensate for non-existent matchmaking

[Seprix]

I learned from playing adventures online that brand new cards doesn't improve my play experience in a way that will compensate for non-existent matchmaking

Don't think about your bad experiences. Don't worry about your lack of matchmaking. Just look at the floating heads, gliding in and out of existence. Look at Salvager's face, bless his soul. Look how phased out he is, floating with the misty crystal ball residue. He is your Teacher. He is your Master. Learn from Salvager. Become phased out. Do not think about your miserable experience with Making Fun. Only think about how pleasant Salvager's eyes are, how they gaze into your soul. He can see the potential. He can see the peace inside, just waiting to be used. Let go of your anger. Let go of your hatred. Become one with the Salvager. You can do it. Do not think about your miserable experience with Making Fun. Let go.

[math]

I learned from playing adventures online that brand new cards doesn't improve my play experience in a way that will compensate for non-existent matchmaking

Don't think about your bad experiences. Don't worry about your lack of matchmaking. Just look at the floating heads, gliding in and out of existence. Look at Salvager's face, bless his soul. Look how phased out he is, floating with the misty crystal ball residue. He is your Teacher. He is your Master. Learn from Salvager. Become phased out. Do not think about your miserable experience with Making Fun. Only think about how pleasant Salvager's eyes are, how they gaze into your soul. He can see the potential. He can see the peace inside, just waiting to be used. Let go of your anger. Let go of your hatred. Become one with the Salvager. You can do it. Do not think about your miserable experience with Making Fun. Let go.

And then Salvager disappears and is replaced with Thief.

[bardo]

I've learned that people really don't like to let you play out your complex Adventures turns, and the number of resignations seems to have skyrocketed. Anecdotally, a lot of these are on the last turn just seconds before finishing.

Of course this may be just a rush to go explore the new cards more after the game is out of hand. Regardless, I understand and I don't hold it against anyone, it's just something I've noticed.

[qmech]

I've learned that 'learnt' is equally valid as 'learned'.

Only in American English, I believe.

I'm late, but we have a lot of language fans.  I use learnt, and dictionaries tend to list this as more common in British English.

[Beyond Awesome]

I've learned that people really don't like to let you play out your complex Adventures turns, and the number of resignations seems to have skyrocketed. Anecdotally, a lot of these are on the last turn just seconds before finishing.

Of course this may be just a rush to go explore the new cards more after the game is out of hand. Regardless, I understand and I don't hold it against anyone, it's just something I've noticed.

Yup. Most noticeably this happens in page/peasant games

[Jeebus]

CRAZY bug.
Just played this game: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160510/log.0.1462901128150.txt
My Spy discarded my opponent's Champion! Did those MF...people actually implement Champion as being the top card of your deck when it's not your turn instead of being in play??

[Infthitbox]

CRAZY bug.
Just played this game: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160510/log.0.1462901128150.txt
My Spy discarded my opponent's Champion! Did those MF...people actually implement Champion as being the top card of your deck when it's not your turn instead of being in play??

He never played it; it was actually the top card of his deck.

[Jeebus]

CRAZY bug.
Just played this game: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160510/log.0.1462901128150.txt
My Spy discarded my opponent's Champion! Did those MF...people actually implement Champion as being the top card of your deck when it's not your turn instead of being in play??

He never played it; it was actually the top card of his deck.

Duh. For some reason I was sure he had been playing with it for several turns.

[ThetaSigma12]

CRAZY bug.
Just played this game: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160510/log.0.1462901128150.txt
My Spy discarded my opponent's Champion! Did those MF...people actually implement Champion as being the top card of your deck when it's not your turn instead of being in play??

He never played it; it was actually the top card of his deck.

Duh. For some reason I was sure he had been playing with it for several turns.

Well, there's a simple test. If he had played champion then the spy would have no effect on him. Champion blocks attacks. 

[Kirian]

You can play Coppers, then buy Bonfires to trash them, then (assuming you still have $6) buy Grand Market, because your Coppers are no longer in play.

(I had just figured I wouldn't buy one that turn because getting rid of the Coppers was better.  This was a nice surprise.)

[vsiewnar]

You can still trash your Hermit to Madman even after buying only an Event.

Your opponent's Warrior can trash your Wharf if their Ferry token is on it.

[Witherweaver]

CRAZY bug.
Just played this game: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160510/log.0.1462901128150.txt
My Spy discarded my opponent's Champion! Did those MF...people actually implement Champion as being the top card of your deck when it's not your turn instead of being in play??

He never played it; it was actually the top card of his deck.

Duh. For some reason I was sure he had been playing with it for several turns.

Well, there's a simple test. If he had played champion then the spy would have no effect on him. Champion blocks attacks. 

[Beyond Awesome]

You can play Coppers, then buy Bonfires to trash them, then (assuming you still have $6) buy Grand Market, because your Coppers are no longer in play.

(I had just figured I wouldn't buy one that turn because getting rid of the Coppers was better.  This was a nice surprise.)

There was actually a bug where you couldn't buy GM if you trashed coppers with Bonfire. Luckily, I found it before release.

[Joseph2302]

Quest is a good counter to Haunted Woods if you have a spare buy.

[Seprix]

Quest is neat for Tunnel activation.

[Beyond Awesome]

Better yet, Scouting Party and Quest with Tunnel on the board.

[werothegreat]

MF has released a new version that fixes some of the bugs y'all've been seeing.

[drsteelhammer]

Did anyone play with three or more events yet? The more matches I play, the more suspicious I get that they deviated from full random about this one.

[yed]

Did anyone play with three or more events yet? The more matches I play, the more suspicious I get that they deviated from full random about this one.

I think that is according to rules:

For normal play we recommend using at most two Events per game; skip any further Events.

http://riograndegames.com/getFile.php?id=1907

[Chris is me]

Did anyone play with three or more events yet? The more matches I play, the more suspicious I get that they deviated from full random about this one.

I think that is according to rules:

For normal play we recommend using at most two Events per game; skip any further Events.

http://riograndegames.com/getFile.php?id=1907

It's recommended, but not a rule - just like the 3-5 Alchemy "rule". I am very sure MF doesn't know this as I have never ever seen a 3 event game.

[Awaclus]

Did anyone play with three or more events yet? The more matches I play, the more suspicious I get that they deviated from full random about this one.

I think that is according to rules:

For normal play we recommend using at most two Events per game; skip any further Events.

http://riograndegames.com/getFile.php?id=1907

It's recommended, but not a rule - just like the 3-5 Alchemy "rule". I am very sure MF doesn't know this as I have never ever seen a 3 event game.

It's a good recommendation though, unlike the 3-5 Alchemy "rule".

[drsteelhammer]

Did anyone play with three or more events yet? The more matches I play, the more suspicious I get that they deviated from full random about this one.

I think that is according to rules:

For normal play we recommend using at most two Events per game; skip any further Events.

http://riograndegames.com/getFile.php?id=1907

It's recommended, but not a rule - just like the 3-5 Alchemy "rule". I am very sure MF doesn't know this as I have never ever seen a 3 event game.

It's a good recommendation though, unlike the 3-5 Alchemy "rule".

Good one? It's certainly a few magnitudes better than the Alchemy rule, but I don't think the fun decreases very much with a third Event in the Kingdom every 20(?) or so games. A bit more often with Empires, but still.

[Beyond Awesome]

Please no 3 Event Kingdoms. It's hard enough to think on some boards dealing with a 12-card Kingdom.

Even some 10-card kingdoms are pretty complex.

[jsh357]

I'm not fond of having Kingdoms with more than 2 Events/Landmarks. It causes way too much AP.

[drsteelhammer]

I'm not very fond of Kingdoms that include the card Governor, but that doesn't mean the official standard random kingdom selection should fulfill my or anyone elses wishes.

[jsh357]

I'm not very fond of Kingdoms that include the card Governor, but that doesn't mean the official standard random kingdom selection should fulfill my or anyone elses wishes.

Well, you can play however you want, but personally I don't want to play games against randoms taking absurd amounts of time to make decisions. I prefer Pro mode to be at 2 Events maximum.

[drsteelhammer]

I'm not very fond of Kingdoms that include the card Governor, but that doesn't mean the official standard random kingdom selection should fulfill my or anyone elses wishes.

Well, you can play however you want, but personally I don't want to play games against randoms taking absurd amounts of time to make decisions. I prefer Pro mode to be at 2 Events maximum.

I do realize we both can play however we want, but I thought I made it clear that I'm talking about standard random. I don't see how your point should trump the official rules, you should have bribed Donald before releasing Adventures if it's that important to you.

Also, I've never played with three events ever, and I don't necessarily think it's more fun than the way it is now. I have no personal stakes in here, I just wanted to point out that it is (probably) not according to the rules.

[LastFootnote]

I'm not very fond of Kingdoms that include the card Governor, but that doesn't mean the official standard random kingdom selection should fulfill my or anyone elses wishes.

Well, you can play however you want, but personally I don't want to play games against randoms taking absurd amounts of time to make decisions. I prefer Pro mode to be at 2 Events maximum.

I do realize we both can play however we want, but I thought I made it clear that I'm talking about standard random. I don't see how your point should trump the official rules, you should have bribed Donald before releasing Adventures if it's that important to you.

Also, I've never played with three events ever, and I don't necessarily think it's more fun than the way it is now. I have no personal stakes in here, I just wanted to point out that it is (probably) not according to the rules.

The rules stipulate no way to randomize kingdoms at all. Full random with a maximum of two Events/Landmarks is great.

[jsh357]

I'm not very fond of Kingdoms that include the card Governor, but that doesn't mean the official standard random kingdom selection should fulfill my or anyone elses wishes.

Well, you can play however you want, but personally I don't want to play games against randoms taking absurd amounts of time to make decisions. I prefer Pro mode to be at 2 Events maximum.

I do realize we both can play however we want, but I thought I made it clear that I'm talking about standard random. I don't see how your point should trump the official rules, you should have bribed Donald before releasing Adventures if it's that important to you.

Also, I've never played with three events ever, and I don't necessarily think it's more fun than the way it is now. I have no personal stakes in here, I just wanted to point out that it is (probably) not according to the rules.

I can't really make a good comment on this because I'm not sure how the rulebook could have made a compromise recommending an 'official' format when technically Dominion doesn't have a lot of 'official' games that have to follow every rule to a T. I read the ruling as "you can do whatever you want, but you should probably limit it to 2," but I have the experience of mostly testing Adventures with a hard limit of 2, so I can understand someone thinking it's the other way around.

[drsteelhammer]

The rules stipulate no way to randomize kingdoms at all. Full random with a maximum of two Events/Landmarks is great.

I read instructions on how to randomize in the rulebook. That what the randomizers are for, no? I also read something by Donald who said that Dominion is designed to be played with random boards. Of course I can house-rule whatever I want, but that beside the point.

I don't dispute that random +two Events/Landmarks is great. Full random with zero Events is also great. I also had fun Kingdoms with 1 Event. I don't actually know how it is with three or more, but I've yet to hear a valid argument why Making Fun or any randomizer app should not include the possibility when you play FULL RANDOM.

I can't really make a good comment on this because I'm not sure how the rulebook could have made a compromise recommending an 'official' format when technically Dominion doesn't have a lot of 'official' games that have to follow every rule to a T. I read the ruling as "you can do whatever you want, but you should probably limit it to 2," but I have the experience of mostly testing Adventures with a hard limit of 2, so I can understand someone thinking it's the other way around.

Hmm, I think it's pretty easy. The rulebook also states that there should be ten Kingdom cards unless otherwise specified, I don't see why you couldn't make the same limitations for events if they were intended.

[Beyond Awesome]

I don't agree about full random, but there should be an option to custom make a board with more than 2 Events.

Argument as to why more than 2 is a bad idea: Too much going on at once... Unless you're a super genius who can take these additional variables into consideration. Me personally, that's just too much thinking and not fun at all.

[jsh357]

I don't agree about full random, but there should be an option to custom make a board with more than 2 Events.

Argument as to why more than 2 is a bad idea: Too much going on at once... Unless you're a super genius who can take these additional variables into consideration. Me personally, that's just too much thinking and not fun at all.

I do agree with this: an option to include more Events (at least in casual games) should be available.

[Kirian]

Ball causes you to gain cards, and activating the bonus on Port requires you to buy cards.

Expedition is a terrible idea when there's a discard attack on the board.  That ought to have been incredibly obvious though.

[Max]

Ball causes you to gain cards, and activating the bonus on Port requires you to buy cards.

Expedition is a terrible idea when there's a discard attack on the board.  That ought to have been incredibly obvious though.

The second is a "not necessarily". Like the extra card from Margrave every attack. You get the best three of seven. This isn't edge casing either, if you don't want silver then it's getting you a possibly better hand plus a bit of cycling.

[faust]

Pathfinding/Cultist is just stupid.

[J Reggie]

Pathfinding/Cultist is just stupid.

More than Lost Arts/Cultist?

[Beyond Awesome]

At least Lost Arts in Cultist makes engines viable.

[faust]

Ball causes you to gain cards, and activating the bonus on Port requires you to buy cards.

Expedition is a terrible idea when there's a discard attack on the board.  That ought to have been incredibly obvious though.

The second is a "not necessarily". Like the extra card from Margrave every attack. You get the best three of seven. This isn't edge casing either, if you don't want silver then it's getting you a possibly better hand plus a bit of cycling.

Also, if you have Moats, drawing more cards increases the likelihood of having a Moat in hand.

[werothegreat]

Ball causes you to gain cards, and activating the bonus on Port requires you to buy cards.

Expedition is a terrible idea when there's a discard attack on the board.  That ought to have been incredibly obvious though.

The second is a "not necessarily". Like the extra card from Margrave every attack. You get the best three of seven. This isn't edge casing either, if you don't want silver then it's getting you a possibly better hand plus a bit of cycling.

Also, if you have Moats, drawing more cards increases the likelihood of having a Moat in hand.

If you draw Moat from a Margrave draw, you can't reveal it to not discard, because the Attack has already been played.

[faust]

Ball causes you to gain cards, and activating the bonus on Port requires you to buy cards.

Expedition is a terrible idea when there's a discard attack on the board.  That ought to have been incredibly obvious though.

The second is a "not necessarily". Like the extra card from Margrave every attack. You get the best three of seven. This isn't edge casing either, if you don't want silver then it's getting you a possibly better hand plus a bit of cycling.

Also, if you have Moats, drawing more cards increases the likelihood of having a Moat in hand.

If you draw Moat from a Margrave draw, you can't reveal it to not discard, because the Attack has already been played.

Yes. We were talking about Expedition.

[Beyond Awesome]

What I've learned is that a lot of players open Port and then proceed to hammer the Port pile as if it were the strongest card in the game.

I mean, on some boards winning the Port split is crucial, but it seems that all the time people just dive in for them.

[Chris is me]

What I've learned as that a lot of players open Port and then proceed to hammer the Port pile as if it were the strongest card in the game.

I mean, on some boards winning the Port split is crucial, but it seems that all the time people just dive in for them.

I still contend this is marginally less dumb than rushing Villages. Winning the split literally doubles your terminal space over your opponent, at worst. It also only takes 3 turns to tie the split. It shouldn't be rushed every game, but more than I would have expected.

It's also an excellent pile for tokens.

[math]

It's also an excellent pile for tokens.

This.  I've never played it, but I think opening Port/Peasant and then hammering Ports would be really strong.  How many other cantrips let you get 8 copies even if your opponent interferes?

[Beyond Awesome]

For tokens, I agree, it's good. But, if another Village is on the board, opening it on $4 and hammering it down isn't great most of the time.

[LastFootnote]

My rating is temporarily going way up. Yay?

Aaaaaand now everybody else knows the cards and my rating is tanking. It was nice while it lasted.

[Beyond Awesome]

Playing many of these cards is still pretty hard.

[wachsmuth]

It's also an excellent pile for tokens.

This.  I've never played it, but I think opening Port/Peasant and then hammering Ports would be really strong.  How many other cantrips let you get 8 copies even if your opponent interferes?

"Really strong" is an overstatement. Your opponent who buys a trasher first and gets to Teacher much earlier is gonna be in much better shape. And besides, you can only stick 1 token on Port, so it's not like Teacher-Port is much of a strategy by itself.

[Beyond Awesome]

If you end up with 8 Lost Cities in your deck, that's pretty reasonable.

[Burning Skull]

Hooray I've finally played some Adventures.
First thoughts:

Dungeon is dull
Magpie is sweeet, especially when you have some tokens to butter your bread
I really like Wine Merchant, Giant and Miser - all these payload-only cards, they ought to be crappy! But no, they are not, especially Wine Merchant. I mean, Miser is slow, sure, but it's not completely useless like his older marine brother
Distant Lands are great and tricky, and same goes for Artificer
Treasure Trove is a very strong BM option, but I guess will be an excellent fodder in some engines too
Both 2-cost trashers are cool
Fugitive is a potato
Do you ever want more than one Amulet?
Are Duplicate megaturns viable? i think so


Overall it's great that it feels like this set is very flat in power level: no complete duds and no obligatory OP cards (well, I guess you almost always go for Magpie).
As a lot of people already mentioned, attacks are kinda on the weaker side, no swinginess, which is a good thing? probably

Also I have a strange feeling that Adventures have a lot of "utility" cards. So, Adventures only games are a bit hmmm watery? feels like it's better to mix them with something (everything) else


Also, I want to put all the tokens on Rats, that will teach them!

[Kirian]

I don't understand Storyteller at all.  I mean, I understand how it works, but how to use it?  I got nothin'.

[gkrieg13]

I don't understand Storyteller at all.  I mean, I understand how it works, but how to use it?  I got nothin'.

Storyteller raid is pretty good. Just get some +buy and you're set

[Limetime]

I don't understand Storyteller at all.  I mean, I understand how it works, but how to use it?  I got nothin'.

Storyteller raid is pretty good. Just get some +buy and you're set

Story teller +Any treasure gainer is great. Especially tresure trove. Also bank. For those games +buy is quite useful.

[Beyond Awesome]

I played a messed up storyteller HoP Goons Mission engine today. The only Village was Throne. That game was hard to play and a mess. I did win though.

PS: Mission and HoP are BFFs.

[Beyond Awesome]

The more games I play with Inheritance, I am learning that when trashing is on the board, the way you approach the board can be counter-intuitive. Usually, you want to trash your starting cards, but I am finding out more and more that you want to spike $7 as fast as possible, and maybe later on trash your coppers.

[assemble_me]

I don't understand Storyteller at all.  I mean, I understand how it works, but how to use it?  I got nothin'.

I've had my problems understanding it as well. You want some money (in form of actions or yellow) to draw more cards. In fact, just having one or two Storytellers can be enough to draw the deck. That said, you want that deck to have something better to do than just drawing money with it. It's pretty neat with Coin of the Realm, too

Do you ever want more than one Amulet?
Are Duplicate megaturns viable? i think so

yes and yes

[junkers]

I didn't get Storyteller at first, either, Kirian. But...

In fact, just having one or two Storytellers can be enough to draw the deck. That said, you want that deck to have something better to do than just drawing money with it.

That's it - it allows you to selectively accelerate your cycling to reach your good stuff. That, at least on the surface, gives it an advantage over other cycling cards: you can burn what you need to get draw, but you can also throttle it back when you've already got cards in hand (to spend on other good stuff).

[funkdoc]

yea, i'd say there's better reason to open double amulet than double steward.  insurance against missing shuffles is good!

its silver gaining is also surprisingly nice with like any wharf engine, or other strong draw engines with butcher et al.

[Beyond Awesome]

Amulet is weaker than I thought it would be, but still decent. Bonfire, Plan, Ratcatcher, and Raze overshadow it though in this expansion.

[Seprix]

Are Duplicate megaturns viable?

I had a game where I had over 4-5 Bridge Trolls in play, and I duplicated 4-5 Provinces to end the game.

[Limetime]

Bonfire is faster than urchin

[Witherweaver]

Pathfinding/Cultist is just stupid.

So is your face!

[Witherweaver]

Are Duplicate megaturns viable?

I had a game where I had over 4-5 Bridge Trolls in play, and I duplicated 4-5 Provinces to end the game.

Even without cost reducers, you can empty an Alt-VP pile in a single turn with Duplicates. 

[schadd]

artificer might be the one time where you get a scout


oftentimes in artificer games i'm finding that you can overdraw with several artificers left and then just try to tactics it out by discarding and drawing. the fact that artificer is a non-terminal that immediately rewards cards to throw away and also makes it really easy to just get a card during a turn means that getting scout during the end-of-turn discard-and-draw is feasible; oftentimes you wouldn't be able to draw cards to discard with as many artificers as you have and since scout draws as many cards as you have to discard for it the opportunity cost might be exactly 0. however, as always, if you don't have victory cards then it super sucks and is not worth getting at all ever

[LuciferousPeridot]

Don't ferry BoM

[Seprix]

Don't ferry BoM

I cannot begin to tell you have many games I've played where people do this.

[amoffett11]

Yesterday I was playing a game with Inheritance and Crossroads.  I inherited Crossroads, and then on my next hand I had all my estates together.  I played the first one, but then I had no more Actions.  "What?!  This is a bug!  This is an outrage!  This is...oh, exactly what is supposed to happen"

Crossroads reads "If this is the first time you've played a Crossroads this turn, +3 Actions".  Inheritance reads "your estates gain the abilities and types of that card..." but not the name.  Your estates are still estates, and so they don't trigger the "If you played a Crossroads" clause because you didn't play a Crossroads, you played an Estate.  I tried to salvage the game by buying a bunch of Crossroads, the idea can still work out OK if you start your chain with a real Crossroads, but in the end my opponent selected a better card to inherit and steamrolled me. 

So watch out!  Inheriting Crossroads may seem like a decent idea, but it does not work the way you might think it would.  You have to read the fine print

[LuciferousPeridot]

Don't ferry BoM

I cannot begin to tell you have many games I've played where people do this.

Yea what moron would do that. Cough.

[Haddock]

Don't ferry BoM

I cannot begin to tell you have many games I've played where people do this.

Yea what moron would do that. Cough.

Edge case: Kingdom is
BoM, Squire, Raze, Pawn, Poor House, Crossroads, Courtyard,  Candlestick Maker, Stonemason, Hamlet.
Ferry.

Does that even work?

[Watno]

It's not even that absurd: You ferry BoM, buy a bunch of them, then ferry the 6 cost you wnat to play a lot.

[Seprix]

It's not even that absurd: You ferry BoM, buy a bunch of them, then ferry the 6 cost you wnat to play a lot.

That's a lot of work and a wasted turn. Just Ferry the card you want anyways.

[Chris is me]

It's not even that absurd: You ferry BoM, buy a bunch of them, then ferry the 6 cost you wnat to play a lot.

That's a lot of work and a wasted turn. Just Ferry the card you want anyways.

Is it really? It's not like buying Ferry more than once a game is all that out of the ordinary.

[Seprix]

It's not even that absurd: You ferry BoM, buy a bunch of them, then ferry the 6 cost you wnat to play a lot.

That's a lot of work and a wasted turn. Just Ferry the card you want anyways.

Is it really? It's not like buying Ferry more than once a game is all that out of the ordinary.

Why put Ferry on BoM, then put Ferry on something else so that BoM can emulate a card that will likely run out quickly if it is that good? Waste of time.

[Chris is me]

It's not even that absurd: You ferry BoM, buy a bunch of them, then ferry the 6 cost you wnat to play a lot.

That's a lot of work and a wasted turn. Just Ferry the card you want anyways.

Is it really? It's not like buying Ferry more than once a game is all that out of the ordinary.

Why put Ferry on BoM, then put Ferry on something else so that BoM can emulate a card that will likely run out quickly if it is that good? Waste of time.

This shouldn't be that hard to figure out, but obviously if you want a lot of BoMs to emulate a variety of different cards, and then you also want BoM to emulate an expensive card. It seriously doesn't take that long with a few extra buys and some thinning, economy, etc.

[Rabid]

It's not even that absurd: You ferry BoM, buy a bunch of them, then ferry the 6 cost you wnat to play a lot.

That's a lot of work and a wasted turn. Just Ferry the card you want anyways.

Is it really? It's not like buying Ferry more than once a game is all that out of the ordinary.

Why put Ferry on BoM, then put Ferry on something else so that BoM can emulate a card that will likely run out quickly if it is that good? Waste of time.

This shouldn't be that hard to figure out, but obviously if you want a lot of BoMs to emulate a variety of different cards, and then you also want BoM to emulate an expensive card. It seriously doesn't take that long with a few extra buys and some thinning, economy, etc.

Grand Market.

[Awaclus]

When you have a Ferry token on King's Court, your Giant can trash your opponent's KC.