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Author Topic: What I've learnt from Adventures online...  (Read 42433 times)

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Harley_Beckett

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What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« on: May 03, 2016, 07:50:07 am »
+11

Just played my first Haunted Woods game. Boy, weird card. There's a lot of things I'm learning about Adventures by having the interface make me do things -- like even if I have more than one buy, after the very first buy I have to put my whole hand on top of my deck. Matters for things like Farmland -- very interesting!

Inspired by the post by the above user, I thought it might be helpful to have a thread devoted to all the interesting interactions and occurances players are discovering now there is an online implementation of Adventures, and we're not reliant on our own, fallible, interpretation of the rules IRL.

For my part, I discovered yesterday that if Page/Peasant is in the Black Market, then the relevant upgrade cards will appear in the kingdom, as per the setup rules, but there will be no way to access them because there is no pile to return the Page/Peasant to to exchange.  How odd!
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2016, 07:52:06 am »
+12

Playing BoM as a reserve cards works... until you would like to call it.
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2016, 07:56:54 am »
0

For my part, I discovered yesterday that if Page/Peasant is in the Black Market, then the relevant upgrade cards will appear in the kingdom, as per the setup rules, but there will be no way to access them because there is no pile to return the Page/Peasant to to exchange.  How odd!

I discovered that exact same thing a few minutes ago. It's not like I even wanted to have that Witch when I could get a strictly-worse-than-Herbalist instead!
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2016, 08:04:50 am »
+14

You never want to click "play all treasures" when there's Save on the board

Also: You probably want to play all treasures instead of ending your turn  :-\
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 08:09:09 am by assemble_me »
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Harley_Beckett

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2016, 08:07:33 am »
0

You never want to click "play all tresures" when there's Save on the board


Ditto for if you want to buy something you've got your trashing token on and trash out a spare copper!
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2016, 08:44:38 am »
+13

Also, MMF was pretty damn convenient and it's a pain to play without it.
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markus

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2016, 09:30:33 am »
+2

I'm not sure whether I learnt something about the rules or about a bug.  ???

Correct me if I'm wrong: If I buy Travelling Fair and then some other card and I use Duplicate to gain a copy of the latter, I should be able to topdeck both cards?

But: When I buy the first card, the client offers me to topdeck or to call Duplicate. If I choose to duplicate, I can then topdeck the second card, but the first one goes automatically to discard. If I choose to topdeck first instead, it doesn’t allow to duplicate afterwards.

(It would have been slightly more convenient to have both treasure maps on top than one on top and one in the discard pile. >:( )
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Deadlock39

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2016, 09:38:02 am »
0

Yeah, for sure you should be able to topdeck both.

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2016, 09:42:42 am »
+8

I'm not sure whether I learnt something about the rules or about a bug.  ???

Correct me if I'm wrong: If I buy Travelling Fair and then some other card and I use Duplicate to gain a copy of the latter, I should be able to topdeck both cards?
You should, but also have to be careful.

But: When I buy the first card, the client offers me to topdeck or to call Duplicate.
And rightfully so. You have two things that respond to when-gain, so you have to choose the order.

If I choose to duplicate, I can then topdeck the second card, but the first one goes automatically to discard.
This is also correct. Travelling fair has lost track of the first card after something got put on top of it.

If I choose to topdeck first instead, it doesn’t allow to duplicate afterwards.
That is wrong. You should be able to duplicate it.
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markus

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2016, 10:09:27 am »
0

I too thought it should work, because both gain-effects happen at the same time.

Interestingly, I had "lost-track" in mind, but I thought that the first option would be rather the way to go. In any case, I tried it again and neither way it's possible to topdeck both with the client.

If I choose to duplicate, I can then topdeck the second card, but the first one goes automatically to discard.
This is also correct. Travelling fair has lost track of the first card after something got put on top of it.
Why or where is there something "put on top"? Edit: I guess in the discard pile because the second one according to the rules (unlike the visual implementation) goes there first.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 10:23:47 am by markus »
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Seprix

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2016, 10:24:49 am »
+1

Mission and Cultist is the biggest dick move you can do to someone in Dominion. You can give upwards of 6 Ruins in both your turns.

Cultist Treasure Trove is even crueler. You don't have to stop to build up at all.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 10:28:06 am by Seprix »
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2016, 10:33:03 am »
0

These are my first games ever with Adventures Cards, so I'm avoiding playing Rated games until I've got a handle on most of these cards.  I've played a bunch of games with a friend of mine, but have also been playing through the campaigns. 

The campaigns are a pretty good way to learn about the cards and to figure out how certain cards might fit into an engine, when to use Card A and to avoid Card B, and when the opposite is true.  However:  as advertised, the AI in the campaigns is not very good.  For all the other expansions, the AI would be really easy the first few levels, but then would at least become challenging once you've hit the 9th or 10th stage of each Act.  Not so in Adventures.  I've yet to have the AI opponent push me at all; at least in the other expansions the AI would play Council Room BM, so you'd be forced to not pick a strategy that's too slow to set up. 

The most annoying thing the AI does is with Port:  I'll settle on my engine, decide what pieces I need to focus on and what cards I need to get them, this card for trashing, etc, and leave the Ports until I need them.  Oops, the Ports are gone already.  It's not uncommon to watch the CPU play Port, play another Port, play 4 coppers, buy a Port and gain another.  Next turn:  play 3 or 4 ports and buy another Port.  It's annoying because A) The AI's deck full of Ports is bad and offers no challenge  B)  I needed 4 Ports or so to make this engine work, and now there's none.  So I still beat the opponents decks easily, but I didn't get my engine going 100% to do it.  This is especially annoying in the 3 player games. 
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2016, 10:34:20 am »
0

Mission and Cultist is the biggest dick move you can do to someone in Dominion. You can give upwards of 6 Ruins in both your turns.

Cultist Treasure Trove is even crueler. You don't have to stop to build up at all.

Have you somehow played my game? I just played a game with those three cards. Though I won by ignoring Cultists
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Seprix

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2016, 10:35:35 am »
0

Mission and Cultist is the biggest dick move you can do to someone in Dominion. You can give upwards of 6 Ruins in both your turns.

Cultist Treasure Trove is even crueler. You don't have to stop to build up at all.

Have you somehow played my game? I just played a game with those three cards. Though I won by ignoring Cultists

You might have played me. I opened 5/2, and even though Vineyard was on the board, I went against my instincts and decided to give him ruins anyways. Well, he had all 10 ruins in his deck, but 5 Hirelings in play, so I was pretty much screwed. :p
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2016, 10:41:52 am »
+4

I'm not sure whether I learnt something about the rules or about a bug.  ???

Correct me if I'm wrong: If I buy Travelling Fair and then some other card and I use Duplicate to gain a copy of the latter, I should be able to topdeck both cards?
You should, but also have to be careful.

But: When I buy the first card, the client offers me to topdeck or to call Duplicate.
And rightfully so. You have two things that respond to when-gain, so you have to choose the order.

If I choose to duplicate, I can then topdeck the second card, but the first one goes automatically to discard.
This is also correct. Travelling fair has lost track of the first card after something got put on top of it.

If I choose to topdeck first instead, it doesn’t allow to duplicate afterwards.
That is wrong. You should be able to duplicate it.

This is what is bothering me here. Assume the bug actually gets fixed, or you play on a system where this bug doesn't exist.

When playing IRL, there are two likely scenario's:
a) nobody knows the details about the lose-track-rule, and you just topdeck both.
b) somebody knows the rules but isn't a jerk, and explains to you how to topdeck both.
-> so either way, you end up with both cards on top of your deck.

When playing on a computer, it's actually very likely you don't know the rules and the computer is being a jerk about it and you don't get two cards on top.

Is this something we'd want to "solve"? And if so, how?
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2016, 10:47:13 am »
+3

In your implementation you could have warning tooltips telling you what will happen if you pick different choices. You can have the option of ignoring tooltips you've seen before.
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2016, 10:57:45 am »
0

In that particular example, there is no hidden information (as long as you don't buy e.g. IGG). So you could have an undo button as well.

Or have a warning when you want to call Duplicate that this will prevent the other card from being topdecked. (And have the option to have this warning generally be turned off for the pros.  ;) )
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2016, 11:05:40 am »
+2

You never want to click "play all tresures" when there's Save on the board


Ditto for if you want to buy something you've got your trashing token on and trash out a spare copper!
How many times have you opened 5/2 with Alms, and hit play all treasures?
That's why I play IRL :D.
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2016, 11:12:50 am »
0

Is there any point in allowing the user to "lose track" here?  The topdecking is optional, so I would think in this situation it makes sense to just restrict the legal but pointless move, and require the user to topdeck or not before allowing Duplicate to be called.

Unfortunately, that type of exception is probably next to impossible to code in a way that doesn't just suck, so it isn't a very good suggestion.

Maybe the game can know there is a potential move pending for a card, and if the user makes a selection that would cause that card to be lost, it would warn them that their decision will make that option no longer possible and give them the option to execute the move.

e.g.
Buy Traveling Fair
Buy/Gain Treasure Map  (options for Duplicate and Top Deck are present)
Click on Duplicate
   ->"Duplicating will cause Traveling Fair to lose track of Treasure Map"
      "Would you like to: [Top Deck Treasure Map]   [Continue with Duplicate]"

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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2016, 11:29:19 am »
0

In your implementation you could have warning tooltips telling you what will happen if you pick different choices. You can have the option of ignoring tooltips you've seen before.

It would probably be impossible to cover even close to all the scenarios, but it would be great if the client gave warnings (warnings that can be disabled) that say things like "It looks like you're trying to Summon a Death Cart.  This may not work in the way you're intending. [maybe more explanation here]  Do you want to undo buying Summon?"
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2016, 11:45:41 am »
0

In your implementation you could have warning tooltips telling you what will happen if you pick different choices. You can have the option of ignoring tooltips you've seen before.

It would probably be impossible to cover even close to all the scenarios, but it would be great if the client gave warnings (warnings that can be disabled) that say things like "It looks like you're trying to Summon a Death Cart.  This may not work in the way you're intending. [maybe more explanation here]  Do you want to undo buying Summon?"

I disagree with this. Partly because all the scenarios cannot be covered but mostly because the primary purpose of the engine is to play out interactions correctly and let the player learn from their misunderstanding of how it should have happened. This is what makes good players great. I mean, the next logical step is not just prevent the user from making a dumb play but to point the user towards the smart plays (e.g. you should buy a watchtower before doing X).

The thread topic is a perfect example. This is what people have learned as opposed to have been taught or handheld through.
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2016, 12:04:50 pm »
+4


I disagree with this. Partly because all the scenarios cannot be covered but mostly because the primary purpose of the engine is to play out interactions correctly and let the player learn from their misunderstanding of how it should have happened. This is what makes good players great. I mean, the next logical step is not just prevent the user from making a dumb play but to point the user towards the smart plays (e.g. you should buy a watchtower before doing X).

The thread topic is a perfect example. This is what people have learned as opposed to have been taught or handheld through.

With Goko/Making Fun, you never know if it's an obscure rule or a bug.
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2016, 12:40:51 pm »
+14

In your implementation you could have warning tooltips telling you what will happen if you pick different choices. You can have the option of ignoring tooltips you've seen before.

It would probably be impossible to cover even close to all the scenarios, but it would be great if the client gave warnings (warnings that can be disabled) that say things like "It looks like you're trying to Summon a Death Cart.  This may not work in the way you're intending. [maybe more explanation here]  Do you want to undo buying Summon?"

I disagree with this. Partly because all the scenarios cannot be covered but mostly because the primary purpose of the engine is to play out interactions correctly and let the player learn from their misunderstanding of how it should have happened. This is what makes good players great. I mean, the next logical step is not just prevent the user from making a dumb play but to point the user towards the smart plays (e.g. you should buy a watchtower before doing X).

The thread topic is a perfect example. This is what people have learned as opposed to have been taught or handheld through.

Hmm, I don't think I agree with you here. The primary purpose of the engine is to let the players have fun playing a game. And second, I hope that the difference between good players and top players will (continue) to be a better understanding of strategies and tactical moves, not a better understanding of the rules or how to prevent misclicks.

I haven't kept track, but I can safely assume I played >99% of my IRL games in a friendly setting and <1% in a tournament setting. In those tournament games I would in some sense consider it fair that I don't end up with both cards on top of my deck if I don't understand the rules well enough. But there is no way that would happen in a friendly game. Just because we're playing on a computer now, I don't necessarily want that to change.

I guess an important question is how much fun is spoiled for a casual player that doesn't end up with both cards on his deck and doesn't understand why (and probably his opponent can't explain it either). markus decided to ask here and got an answer; assuming that it could be a bug probably helped him. But for most players it would just end with frustration.
We could at least try to mitigate that situation somewhat by making the log report any instance of lose-track ("Traveling Fair now loses track of your Treasure Map because another card is put on top of it)

In your implementation you could have warning tooltips telling you what will happen if you pick different choices. You can have the option of ignoring tooltips you've seen before.
While I wouldn't mind (the option of enabling) such tooltips, it does require an actual algorithm to determine when to warn the user about what, and so far I don't have an idea that actually works. You certainly don't want a tooltip popping up for every choice you make.
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2016, 12:45:48 pm »
+7

"Traveling Fair now loses track of your Treasure Map because another card is put on top of it

I like this.  +1 this.
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Re: What I've learnt from Adventures online...
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2016, 01:34:00 pm »
+20

In your implementation you could have warning tooltips telling you what will happen if you pick different choices. You can have the option of ignoring tooltips you've seen before.

It would probably be impossible to cover even close to all the scenarios, but it would be great if the client gave warnings (warnings that can be disabled) that say things like "It looks like you're trying to Summon a Death Cart.  This may not work in the way you're intending. [maybe more explanation here]  Do you want to undo buying Summon?"

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