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[Jack Rudd]

It's got the same cost as Transmute. But usually not the same value.

Is this ever worth getting on non-engine boards?
How should you time picking it up in a mirror match?
What kingdom cards does it have synergy with?

[SirSlugma]

Vineyard is awesome.  The 2nd question really changes depending on the board, and what your opponent does, and it's a large part of what makes it so interesting to play.  How big can I get my Vineyards?  How much should I prioritize my engine?  What kinds of Action cards can I amass quickly to gain points?  How early do I pick up Potion?  There is no straightforward answer to any of these; it really does depend on the kingdom.

Best Action cards to look for are non-terminals and gainers, but I feel like it doesn't take a lot to make Vineyard worth it.

[ConMan]

Is this ever worth getting on non-engine boards?

Maaaaybe if your opponent is playing Cultist-BM and swamped you with Ruins.

What kingdom cards does it have synergy with?

Cheap ways to get lots of Action cards - Rats, Stonemason, maybe Magpie?, Peddler if you can grab them quickly, Candlestick Maker to an extent, University is ok especially since you'll have the Potion anyway, Poor House if you have the +Buy (especially since it just about guarantees you can buy the Potion). I would love to see what happens when you play on a board with Baron, Vineyards and Inheritance.

[ConMan]

Best Action cards to look for are non-terminals and gainers, but I feel like it doesn't take a lot to make Vineyard worth it.

I agree. Like Gardens, this is definitely more "Why wouldn't I go for this?" than "Why would I go for this?". If it's one of those wonky boards where all the Action cards are $5 terminals then maybe not. If it's a strong Duke board, then I'd probably go for that instead. A complete lack of engine parts would do it too.

[Chris is me]

Best Action cards to look for are non-terminals and gainers, but I feel like it doesn't take a lot to make Vineyard worth it.

I agree. Like Gardens, this is definitely more "Why wouldn't I go for this?" than "Why would I go for this?". If it's one of those wonky boards where all the Action cards are $5 terminals then maybe not. If it's a strong Duke board, then I'd probably go for that instead. A complete lack of engine parts would do it too.

I think Gardens is much, much more skippable than Vineyard. Vineyard is probably similar to Goons in viability - good with even light support (just like multiple cheap actions and +Buy) and dominating with multiple forms of support. Vineyard is extremely strong, and among the least skippable Potion cost cards.

You absolutely do not need a full blown engine to buy it. Not even close. Like, even strategies as weak as Squire BM can occasionally win buying Vineyards instead of Provinces tbqh

[Seprix]

Vineyard is something you can go for when your opponent is crushing you with Provinces. You can keep building infinitely, and as time goes on, Vineyards only increase in value. Because of this, it is a terrible idea to even consider getting Provinces if you are playing a Vineyards game and your opponent isn't. You want as long a game as possible. Don't help your opponent.

[luser]

Best Action cards to look for are non-terminals and gainers, but I feel like it doesn't take a lot to make Vineyard worth it.

I agree. Like Gardens, this is definitely more "Why wouldn't I go for this?" than "Why would I go for this?". If it's one of those wonky boards where all the Action cards are $5 terminals then maybe not. If it's a strong Duke board, then I'd probably go for that instead. A complete lack of engine parts would do it too.

I think Gardens is much, much more skippable than Vineyard. Vineyard is probably similar to Goons in viability - good with even light support (just like multiple cheap actions and +Buy) and dominating with multiple forms of support. Vineyard is extremely strong, and among the least skippable Potion cost cards.

You absolutely do not need a full blown engine to buy it. Not even close. Like, even strategies as weak as Squire BM can occasionally win buying Vineyards instead of Provinces tbqh

Well this depends on player skills. With two strong player matches on engine boards vineyard is quite often skippable. When its mirror match that ends on piles spending turn to get potion to get 4-5 point vineyard next turn isn't good when you need to green now to prevent opponents 3 piling and quick vp lead from province/duchy is preferable.

[Sidsel]

We just got the Alchemy set, and played one game with Vineyard (random Alchemy/Adventures board; Pilgrimage/ Giant, Bridge Troll, Apprentice, Familiar, Vineyard, Alchemist, Port, Transmogrify, Herbalist, Ratcatcher).

One had their Vineyards worth 3pt, the other 5 pts, mine were 6 points each. What is the usual result?

[schadd]

What is the usual result?

10ish

[Awaclus]

It depends on the board, but usually you can make them better than Provinces.

[schadd]

yeah, the actual answer is that, when both players are getting vineyards then it's not as important to try to beef up the vineyards as to just grab em and end the game and they end up at 4 or 5, whereas if you're competing against provinces you can usually try to prolong the game and get them pretty high by getting a bunch of cheap actions or something, and that can end up in the 10 range but usually that's not necessary. also, in practice, vineyards won't be competing against provinces very often because if you can buy more than one action card per turn then vineyards have a strong edge, and both players go for them.

[Beyond Awesome]

Even when both players go for them, they are usually worth at least a Province.

[Limetime]

Played a game recently with wine merchant and counterfeit as +buy. No villages in sight.
I got them up to 7 vp.

[Davio]

Vineyards are fun when the actions are bad, otherwise they just reward you for doing something which is already good (using good actions to build an engine).

[Doom_Shark]

As a joke, I tried a vineyard strategy using Rats self gaining for points. Did surprisingly well...didn't win though. Probably because that was a colony board.

[brokoli]

As a joke, I tried a vineyard strategy using Rats self gaining for points. Did surprisingly well...didn't win though. Probably because that was a colony board.

Rats and vineyard is a well-known synergy, but of course it doesn't work in every board.

[Doom_Shark]

As a joke, I tried a vineyard strategy using Rats self gaining for points. Did surprisingly well...didn't win though. Probably because that was a colony board.

Rats and vineyard is a well-known synergy, but of course it doesn't work in every board.

Yeah, found that out the hard way. It was interesting though. I would TFB my rats, then gain them back with rogue. In the same turn. That was fun.

[Limetime]

Develop is quite good here.

[xyz123]

This is my favourite alt VP card. A good Vineyards deck is also a deck that is fun to play.

A couple of my favourite Vineyard synergies are Stonemason and Counterfeit.

Stonemason's overpay option means that each overpay is 1 VP per Vineyard as you will be getting 3 action cards. At the end of the game you can use Stonemason to turn your high cost cards into two lower cost actions to help boost your scores. If there is another potion cost card you can Stonemason that into two Vineyards.

If you Counterfeit a potion you can buy two Vineyards. If you are doing this to gain the last two Vineyards and do not want the potion for anything else, there is the added bonus of removing a dead card from your deck.

[ehunt]

It's got the same cost as Transmute. But usually not the same value.

Is this ever worth getting on non-engine boards?
How should you time picking it up in a mirror match?
What kingdom cards does it have synergy with?

Cheap +buy is enough to make vineyards > province in the absence of other engine components. Probably the herbalist combo is even enough.

[Witherweaver]

We just got the Alchemy set, and played one game with Vineyard (random Alchemy/Adventures board; Pilgrimage/ Giant, Bridge Troll, Apprentice, Familiar, Vineyard, Alchemist, Port, Transmogrify, Herbalist, Ratcatcher).

One had their Vineyards worth 3pt, the other 5 pts, mine were 6 points each. What is the usual result?

About tree fiddy.

[Witherweaver]

So what about  situations where there isn't +Buy or good gainers?  Is it ever really viable?  You need 18 Actions to get these to the level of Provinces, and you also need to get the Vineyards themselves.   Does it work as a 'consolation prize', or just get ignored?

Edit: I guess the point being is that if you can't gain multiple actions a turn, any kind of Big Money strategy should pile out Provinces before you can build Vineyards up to the level of Provinces and get all the Vineyards.

[Limetime]

So what about  situations where there isn't +Buy or good gainers?  Is it ever really viable?  You need 18 Actions to get these to the level of Provinces, and you also need to get the Vineyards themselves.   Does it work as a 'consolation prize', or just get ignored?

Edit: I guess the point being is that if you can't gain multiple actions a turn, any kind of Big Money strategy should pile out Provinces before you can build Vineyards up to the level of Provinces and get all the Vineyards.

Lets say you but an action every turn except the turns where you get vineyards and 2 potions.
That is 28 turns. This seems fall fairly short of the time bm can get 8 Provinces. On the other hand if you can slow them down significantly you might be able to win. I would do vineyards if there is an engine available that can play something like militia every turn.

[Dingan]

As a joke, I tried a vineyard strategy using Rats self gaining for points. Did surprisingly well...didn't win though. Probably because that was a colony board.

Rats and vineyard is a well-known synergy, but of course it doesn't work in every board.

I think Rats/Vineyards in a vacuum is a nombo.  It needs additional support.  Turning your starting 10 cards into 11 Rats will basically make your Vineyards Duchies in a deck worse than having a bunch of Ruins.