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Author Topic: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute  (Read 5610 times)

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Jack Rudd

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Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« on: April 29, 2016, 04:48:37 pm »
+2



Trash-for-detriment.

What sort of decks is this actually useful in?
Does it have any genuine combos?
Have you, like me, banned it from Black Market decks in your home games?
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2016, 05:25:05 pm »
+10

Does it have any genuine combos?

Swindling Vineyards.
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2016, 06:29:50 pm »
0

I think everyone's had that moment when they look at this card, and they think to themselves how great it would be to trash those starting Estates for Gold. And then they actually play... And get #rekt...

The only potential use I see this card being used in is when there's just no end in sight for a game (a slog) but you're very ahead and want to end the game on Transmute/Duchy/something piles...?

Arguably worse than Scout.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 06:31:26 pm by Seprix »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2016, 06:36:07 pm »
0

It might be worth it in Scrying Pool games: you need the Potion anyway, and turning manky Coppers into manky Transmutes will at least make it harder for your Pools to choke. Still not great, though.
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2016, 07:18:16 pm »
+3

I think Transmute is the worst card.  Period.  I have bought Scout, Adventurer, Stash (granted, I don't own Stash), and the like probably somewhere between 5 and 20 times in my life.  But I know for a fact I have bought Transmute less than 5 times ever (not counting the games where I was still figuring out how bad it was).  It has just such niche uses.  The cases mentioned -- Swindling Vineyards and Scrying Pool support -- have their flaws.

In order to Swindle a Vineyard, you need to be able to topdeck their Vineyard.  Which means this is, at the very best, sort of a 3-card combo.  And you're opponent is already greening at that point.  And they need to have not Swindled your engine away into nothingness already.  It's something I've never even come close to lining up in my thousands of games of playing.

I guess there's something to be said about Transmute supporting Scrying Pool.  It'd be sort of like Rats but much, much worse.  Again, it's something I've never come close to doing in my Dominion career.

Maybe in a super slog it's actually usable.  Or as a Vineyards enabler once all the Vineyards are gone?  Idk.

I think it would be correctly priced and maybe somewhat average if it had +1 Action.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 07:27:58 pm by Dingan »
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2016, 07:20:47 pm »
0

In order to Swindle a Vineyard, you need to be able to topdeck their Vineyard.  Which means this is, at the very best, sort of a 3-card combo.

All you need is Scrying Pool, Swindler, and possibly a Village variant. Just play Scrying Pool, fish for Vineyards, and then hit it with Swindler.
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2016, 07:23:09 pm »
0

In order to Swindle a Vineyard, you need to be able to topdeck their Vineyard.  Which means this is, at the very best, sort of a 3-card combo.

All you need is Scrying Pool, Swindler, and possibly a Village variant. Just play Scrying Pool, fish for Vineyards, and then hit it with Swindler.

And Vineyards needs to be in the kingdom (that's why I said sort of a 3 card combo).
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Seprix

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2016, 07:24:16 pm »
+2

Alternatively, have Highways in play, and trade away any Potion cost card for a Transmute*. But really. I can think of more combos** with Scout than with Transmute.


*This is an edgecase, and not necessarily reflective of any typical randomized game of Dominion.

**short for combination, used in the sense of two or more Dominion cards used together that are better than the sum of their parts.


Just covering my bases.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 07:29:11 pm by Seprix »
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2016, 08:41:08 pm »
+4

I think it would be correctly priced and maybe somewhat average if it had +1 Action.

Hmm. I feel like as things wore on Donald came to decide that allowing more Actions to be non-terminal wouldn't break the game, and so there are non-terminals in later expansions that are very similar to terminals in earlier expansions. Compare Candlestick Maker and Forager to Herbalist and Trade Route.
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2016, 09:12:53 pm »
0

it would be cool if you could do it twice and the gain-a-transmute could also be gain a card costing up to $4
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2016, 09:33:25 pm »
0

It might be worth it in Scrying Pool games: you need the Potion anyway, and turning manky Coppers into manky Transmutes will at least make it harder for your Pools to choke. Still not great, though.

This is about the only time I've used Transmute.  I know I've tried it some other times but cannot remember any success against a human player.
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Marcory

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2016, 09:37:55 pm »
0

If you have a +Buy, Transmute is sometimes tolerable (at best) with:
--Familiar, especially when it's the only trashing.
--Cultist/Marauder (turn those Ruins into Duchies)
--Apprentice (Transmute your Coppers into Transmute, then Apprentice them)
--Duke (Transmute coppers, then Transmute Transmutes)
--Great Hall (Transmute a Great Hall into a Duchy and a Gold)
--Vineyards
--other Potion cards, when there's +Buy and no other Trashing

Not I'm a fan of Transmute, but it, like Scout and Thief, can occasionally be helpful, especially if you can pick it up essentially for free.
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2016, 04:31:34 am »
0

I love the effect, but I've never seen it work out well, except in rare slogs.

It's just too slow to be good tfb, and too terminal for the self-gaining part to be of much use.
We usually houserule that it gains to hand. It makes it one shuffle faster in the early game, and with village support it gave us one very fun game where a player transmuted all his money away in one turn for a three pile.
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2016, 04:15:21 pm »
0

I recall Donald did a "if I had a time machine" rebuff for Scout.  Was there ever such a case here?  If not, any user community buffs to make this... well, not such so much, and actually be worth buying more than 5% or so of the cases?
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2016, 07:53:48 pm »
+5

Transmuted Transmute
Action - $4

Trash a card from your hand. If it is:
An Action, gain a Victory card costing up to $5
A Victory card, gain a Treasure costing up to $6
A Treasure, gain an Action costing up to $4.
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ConMan

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2016, 07:31:07 pm »
+3

There's also the barely passable interaction with Duchess - each time you Transmute a Duchess, you get a Duchy but you also get another Duchess to keep feeding the cycle, meaning you can empty two piles with some speed, so you're just stuck with finding a third pile to empty. Also, you have a deck full of junk.
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2016, 05:21:21 am »
0

finding a third pile to empty.

From the top of my head, Vagrant might be a target.
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2017, 11:20:24 pm »
0

I kind of want to challenge people to have to buy Transmute in a game, and see how well they do against a "normal" strategy.
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2017, 11:36:09 pm »
0

I kind of want to challenge people to design a board in which transmute is actually good. The one thing I can think of is that it might be decent with tomb, but then again, every trasher is (slightly) more appealing alongside tomb
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Dingan

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2017, 12:28:33 am »
0

I kind of want to challenge people to design a board in which transmute is actually good. The one thing I can think of is that it might be decent with tomb, but then again, every trasher is (slightly) more appealing alongside tomb
I wonder if Transmute / Sacrifice could be a thing.
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traces Around

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2017, 01:34:24 am »
+1

Figure out a board where Transmute/Bonfire is the way to go and you are done - some sort of filtering card and a bunch of cards that don't draw much or attack like Transmute, Crossroads, Village, Walled Village, Farming Village, Border Village, Port, Shanty Town, Native Village, Mining Village, Bonfire should do it.

Open Potion/Bonfire. Get a Transmute the first time you hit less than 3 with the Potion in hand. Bonfire with 3 to get rid of all of the Copper and turn all of the Estates into Gold before trashing the Transmute to Bonfire. Once you have done so, buy Province, Duchy, or Crossroads until the game ends.
I don't know if you call Transmute good here but it is one of the key cards to the best strategy.

Here is 5 Provinces in 14 turns on a pretty normal run:
Code: [Select]
Turn 1 - tracer
t plays 3 Coppers
t buys a Bonfire
t trashes 2 Coppers
t draws 4 Coppers and an Estate

Turn 2 - tracer
t plays 4 Coppers
t buys and gains a Potion
t shuffles their deck.
t draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates

Turn 3 - tracer
t plays 3 Coppers
t buys a Bonfire
t trashes 2 Coppers
t shuffles their deck.
t draws 2 Coppers, 2 Estates and a Potion

Turn 4 - tracer
t plays a Potion
t buys and gains a Transmute
t shuffles their deck.
t draws 3 Coppers and 2 Estates

Turn 5 - tracer
t plays 3 Coppers
t buys a Bonfire
t trashes 2 Coppers
t shuffles their deck.
t draws 3 Estates, a Potion and a Transmute

Turn 6 - tracer
t plays a Transmute
t trashes an Estate
t gains a Gold
t shuffles their deck.
t draws a Copper, a Gold, an Estate, a Potion and a Transmute

Turn 7 - tracer
t plays a Transmute
t trashes an Estate
t gains a Gold
t plays a Potion, a Copper and a Gold
t buys a Bonfire
t trashes a Copper and a Potion
t shuffles their deck.
t draws 2 Golds, an Estate and a Transmute

Turn 8 - tracer
t plays a Transmute
t trashes an Estate
t gains a Gold
t plays a Gold
t buys a Bonfire
t trashes a Transmute
t shuffles their deck.
t draws 3 Golds

Turn 9 - tracer
t plays 3 Golds
t buys and gains a Province
t shuffles their deck.
t draws 3 Golds and a Province

Turn 10 - tracer
t plays 3 Golds
t buys and gains a Province
t shuffles their deck.
t draws 3 Golds and 2 Provinces

Turn 11 - tracer
t plays 3 Golds
t buys and gains a Province
t shuffles their deck.
t draws 2 Golds and 3 Provinces

Turn 12 - tracer
t plays a Gold
t buys and gains a Crossroads
t shuffles their deck.
t draws 3 Golds and 2 Provinces

Turn 13 - tracer
t plays 3 Golds
t buys and gains a Province
t shuffles their deck.
t draws 2 Golds, 2 Provinces and a Crossroads

Turn 14 - tracer
t plays a Crossroads
t reveals 2 Golds and 2 Provinces
t draws a Gold and a Province
t plays 3 Golds
t buys and gains a Province
t shuffles their deck.
t draws 2 Golds, 2 Provinces and a Crossroads

Titandrake

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2017, 03:17:57 am »
0

Is spending the turn to trash Transmute to Bonfire on turn 8 worth it? I would have expected a deck of 4 Golds + Transmute to be better than a deck of 3 Golds going into turn 9.
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traces Around

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2017, 03:34:12 am »
0

Is spending the turn to trash Transmute to Bonfire on turn 8 worth it? I would have expected a deck of 4 Golds + Transmute to be better than a deck of 3 Golds going into turn 9.

To be honest I have no idea...you can see I've thought about this combo a ton.

I guess there are theoretical arguments both ways (especially with Crossroads as the filter) and I haven't bothered trying any optimization over the first time I played something like it in which I trashed a card with the Transmute due to slightly different draws.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 03:46:18 am by traces Around »
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2017, 02:50:36 pm »
0

Transmute Rats seems doable in an end game situation or something but not really.
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Transmute
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2017, 04:45:09 pm »
+1

Poor Transmute.
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