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Author Topic: "Features" threads  (Read 90482 times)

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faust

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #250 on: November 10, 2016, 11:54:04 am »
+9

I had a new idea for a feature request (at least one I don't remember reading about):

You know this very small share of stalemate games, where "everyone starves to death"?

It would be nice to have something like a Propose Draw button, and if both players accept, the game will automatically end in a draw.

I think in those small cases, it should end in a tie automatically, but that is my personal opinion.
I think writing a program that recognizes such situations is several orders of magnitude harder than adding a button.
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popsofctown

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #251 on: November 10, 2016, 03:24:05 pm »
+1

I've never seen a starved to death game in all of my thousands of games of dominion. The only appropriate software behavior for online dominion is for the server to turn on scsn's stream channel so that we can watch the game.

Donald has said it's not a draw.  The game keeps going.

The software should message users to give them a link to the stream and encourage everyone to watch.  Also we should get a reconstruction of how the game reached that state so that we can look for the probable misplay.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #252 on: November 10, 2016, 03:39:12 pm »
0

I had a new idea for a feature request (at least one I don't remember reading about):

It would be nice to have something like a Propose Draw button, and if both players accept, the game will automatically end in a draw.

I was inspired to suggest this in this thread a few months ago due to Possession stalemates.

It would be great to have a way to offer a draw (as if the game was tied).

Yeah... so I am pretty swayed toward the degenerate case here actually. When you can reach a deck that plays more than 1 Possession a turn without falling super far behind, the goal turns into building this up as quickly as possible and then destroying your own economy. You can destroy your own economy instantly with Donate, and leave your deck in debt so your opponent can't use it. If this is mirrored, the game is locked out and you starve to death.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #253 on: November 10, 2016, 04:14:14 pm »
+3


Donald has said it's not a draw.  The game keeps going.


Isn't a "propose draw" button just simultaneous resignation? You're allowed to quit whenever you want; it's just asking "should we quit together"
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popsofctown

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #254 on: November 10, 2016, 08:45:08 pm »
+3

No.  Players can't resign either.  There is no game action made available to the players in the base rulebook that says a player can cause themselves to lose.  Isotropic and goko had bugs where you could press a button to cause yourself to lose, even though they were supposed to implement dominion.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #255 on: November 10, 2016, 08:51:57 pm »
0


Just cause they aren't in the rulebook doesn't make them a good feature. Also this is clearly intended by the programmers of the client so it isn't a bug it's a feature.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #256 on: November 10, 2016, 11:31:03 pm »
+2

I had a new idea for a feature request (at least one I don't remember reading about):

You know this very small share of stalemate games, where "everyone starves to death"?

It would be nice to have something like a Propose Draw button, and if both players accept, the game will automatically end in a draw.

I think in those small cases, it should end in a tie automatically, but that is my personal opinion.
I think writing a program that recognizes such situations is several orders of magnitude harder than adding a button.

Not only is it several orders of magnitude harder, it's proven to be theoretically impossible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem

Of course you could hard-code an approximate list of game states known/believed to result in draws, but that's not really solving the problem as well as button-adding does either.
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gloures

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #257 on: November 11, 2016, 12:06:52 am »
+1

I had a new idea for a feature request (at least one I don't remember reading about):

You know this very small share of stalemate games, where "everyone starves to death"?

It would be nice to have something like a Propose Draw button, and if both players accept, the game will automatically end in a draw.

I think in those small cases, it should end in a tie automatically, but that is my personal opinion.
Well, sometimes someone has a tight advantage in such scenarios. Enforcing the tie wouldn't be fair then.

In stalemate situations I feel that if you think you´re in the lead and that a tie is not fair, you´re pretty much obliged to attempt to break out of the stalemate, if you think you can´t get out with an advantage I feel like a tie couldn´t be fairer.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #258 on: November 11, 2016, 03:08:54 am »
+1

No.  Players can't resign either.  There is no game action made available to the players in the base rulebook that says a player can cause themselves to lose.  Isotropic and goko had bugs where you could press a button to cause yourself to lose, even though they were supposed to implement dominion.
Sneak peek: with the "gain Adventurer" button gone, this will finally be fixed in the new Dominion online.

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #259 on: November 11, 2016, 06:25:49 am »
+1

I had a new idea for a feature request (at least one I don't remember reading about):

You know this very small share of stalemate games, where "everyone starves to death"?

It would be nice to have something like a Propose Draw button, and if both players accept, the game will automatically end in a draw.

I think in those small cases, it should end in a tie automatically, but that is my personal opinion.
Well, sometimes someone has a tight advantage in such scenarios. Enforcing the tie wouldn't be fair then.

In stalemate situations I feel that if you think you´re in the lead and that a tie is not fair, you´re pretty much obliged to attempt to break out of the stalemate, if you think you can´t get out with an advantage I feel like a tie couldn´t be fairer.
I wanted to say that this is really subjective. Some people, would rather like to tie while others might want to play it out till than. I'm all for a button, it just increases fun for all involved (nobody is forced to agree to the tie, if both want it it is to their advantage). Enforcing a tie automatically in such a situation wouldn't have that advantage though.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #260 on: November 15, 2016, 05:34:37 pm »
+2

Some players like to play with 2-3 sets instead of full random; I like the idea but always have trouble deciding which sets should be used.

A mode where the kingdom is selected by first selecting 2-3 sets, then mixing all of their cards together, could be cool. So before the game you just know you're playing with "limited random"; you don't know what sets will be used, you just know it won't be more than 3 when you get to the kingdom.

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #261 on: November 16, 2016, 12:02:46 pm »
+2

No.  Players can't resign either.  There is no game action made available to the players in the base rulebook that says a player can cause themselves to lose.  Isotropic and goko had bugs where you could press a button to cause yourself to lose, even though they were supposed to implement dominion.

This strict interpretation of the rules is plainly ridiculous. The rules also don't permit talking, using a computer to play Dominion, having a Victory Point counter, chattingwearing glasses to read the cards, or eating food during a game.

Basic respect for human agency suggests that consensual activities can end at any time - the right to quit a game is fundamental to all games, really. A draw is just quitting simeltaneously.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #262 on: November 16, 2016, 11:00:42 pm »
+1

A draw is different from an incomplete game.  You can pretend those things are the same but they're not.  If a 1900 ELO chess player is playing a 1400 ELO chess player at a large event, and a fire erupts at the venue, forcing evacuation and destroying the board, a good tournament administrator will not score the game as having happened just the same as when both players trade down to 1 king each.  No result will be recorded, because the rules of chess do not define an outcome for that case.

A game's result is defined by its rules, not by what the two players want to mutually agree is the outcome.  Mutually agreeing on an outcome is just not something recognized within the universe of the game.  That is external to the game.  It's like finishing an English crossword puzzle with Chinese characters. 

From what I hear, X-wings miniatures has banned draws entirely from their tournaments because players don't like them.  You can call it fundamental all you want, but you can't go and draw at their games.  You can quit simultaneously and agree with your opponent to do that, and the TO will remove both of you from the tournament.  You can run out of time, and they devised a whole bunch of tiebreakers that always resolve that.  You can't force the tournament administrator to record that your game was completed and neither player won or lost, the game doesn't have that outcome. 

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #263 on: November 16, 2016, 11:55:11 pm »
0


Are you being ornery?
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #264 on: November 17, 2016, 12:14:25 am »
+1

So agreeing to a draw is not part of the game of Dominion but part of the social activity of playing Dominion. It's still a good feature. Allow either player to offer a draw, at which point the other player can either agree, which ends the game and is scored the same as a score/turns tie, or ignore, in which case the player who offered the draw cannot offer again until an offer has been extended to them.

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #265 on: November 17, 2016, 12:27:29 am »
0

So agreeing to a draw is not part of the game of Dominion but part of the social activity of playing Dominion. It's still a good feature. Allow either player to offer a draw, at which point the other player can either agree, which ends the game and is scored the same as a score/turns tie, or ignore, in which case the player who offered the draw cannot offer again until an offer has been extended to them.
Also only 3 draw proposals per game to avoid draw spams
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #266 on: November 17, 2016, 12:52:00 am »
0

Why not just trash a Province from the supply each turn after 10 consecutive turns with no overall Supply change? They are both equally not Dominion.  One just doesn't have a fiddly new interface nuance to it.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #267 on: November 17, 2016, 01:12:06 am »
+3

Why not just trash a Province from the supply each turn after 10 consecutive turns with no overall Supply change? They are both equally not Dominion.  One just doesn't have a fiddly new interface nuance to it.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #268 on: November 17, 2016, 01:43:13 am »
+2

Why not just trash a Province from the supply each turn after 10 consecutive turns with no overall Supply change? They are both equally not Dominion.  One just doesn't have a fiddly new interface nuance to it.

That's an in-game action. I specifically noted that offering a draw was an out-of-game action. It doesn't matter that it's not Dominion. It's a supplement to the gaming experience. It offers players the ability to mutually agree to stop playing a game that has gone degenerate. The goal is to avoid the situation in which the winner is determined not by skill/luck but by the ability to click buttons repeatedly over a long period of time.

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #269 on: November 17, 2016, 06:07:06 am »
0

I think players should definitely be allowed to agree to end a game without a winner and loser being recorded - this should at least be allowed in casual games. I play almost exclusively with one other person. It happens fairly often that we will agree not to play a kingdom if we don't think it is interesting etc. The current system insists on recording a loss against the person who "resigns" and so our win / loss record against each other do not actually reflect our years of playing against each other.

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #270 on: November 17, 2016, 06:33:29 am »
0

A draw is different from an incomplete game.  You can pretend those things are the same but they're not.  If a 1900 ELO chess player is playing a 1400 ELO chess player at a large event, and a fire erupts at the venue, forcing evacuation and destroying the board, a good tournament administrator will not score the game as having happened just the same as when both players trade down to 1 king each.  No result will be recorded, because the rules of chess do not define an outcome for that case.

A game's result is defined by its rules, not by what the two players want to mutually agree is the outcome.  Mutually agreeing on an outcome is just not something recognized within the universe of the game.  That is external to the game.  It's like finishing an English crossword puzzle with Chinese characters.

From Draw (chess) on wikipedia:
Quote
Unless specific tournament rules forbid it, players may agree to a draw at any time. Ethical considerations may make a draw uncustomary in situations where at least one player has a reasonable chance of winning. For example, a draw could be called after a move or two, but this would likely be thought unsporting.

I think players should have the possibility of agreeing on a draw, but not to invalidate a rated game completely, of course.
If the goal is to have fun, and unfun gamestates are not fun, and unfair results are not fun either, then you should be allowed to agree on a draw.

But Donald should have the last word on this, I think.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #271 on: November 17, 2016, 08:48:20 am »
+1

You know, the rules of Dominion don't specifically allow you to tell someone they broke the rules, so I think if a proposed draw happens there's just nothing you can do about it. Sorry. Stopping the game to point out a rules violation is just as not-Dominion as starting with a 10 card hand at the beginning of the game.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #272 on: November 17, 2016, 09:09:29 am »
+4

This strict interpretation of the rules is plainly ridiculous. The rules also don't permit talking, using a computer to play Dominion, having a Victory Point counter, chattingwearing glasses to read the cards, or eating food during a game.

Basic respect for human agency suggests that consensual activities can end at any time - the right to quit a game is fundamental to all games, really. A draw is just quitting simeltaneously.
If you poke around on f.ds you will find a long discussion on note-taking, where I make clear certain to-me-obvious points, such as the difference between actions that take place within game contexts and actions which do not. I even cover wearing glasses.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #273 on: November 17, 2016, 12:52:48 pm »
+1

I've never seen a starved to death game in all of my thousands of games of dominion.

Neither have I.  Maybe it happens to other people, or maybe people play with pre-designed Kingdoms that are more likely to yield a stalemate than the random one.  But I've never seen it, not even once.  There was 1 Ambassador/Golem game I played that went like 60 turns and it felt like a stalemate, but was ever so slightly tipped in 1 direction, enough so that I resigned.

Point is, I don't think a maybe-once-every-few-years scenario should be the highest priority feature at this point.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #274 on: November 17, 2016, 09:40:46 pm »
0

Guys, draws happen so close to never in Dominion. It's not something worthy of being put in as a feature. It would be an okay feature, but it's just so unbelievably rare that it's not worth any of this.

I've had one draw happen before, in a very very specific circumstance, and although it was tough to resolve due to my opponent being Japanese, in most situations I think the players can just work it out without the need for an official feature.
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