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phoenix9797

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"Features" threads
« on: April 26, 2016, 10:59:32 am »
+1

Hi all--

The "main thread" has gotten long and meandering, and it chiefly contains discussion of the pricing model (and recently music / graphical effects).  I thought it might be productive to have separate threads dedicated to hashing out specific features we'd like to see in Shuffle iT's new version of the game.  Ideally, we could have a "hub" thread that provides links to individually-dedicated threads, each of which could contain discussion specific to that feature (and how it might be best implemented).  For example, some features (and thus, threads) that I would like to see under discussion concerning the "pace of game" for the new version would include:

1.  Ability to see opponents' ranking, stats, etc., during the game.  I need something to do while waiting for my turn!
2.  Ability to force a resignation after a very short waiting period (< 30 seconds?) when an opponent has connection issues.
3.  Ability to select "timed game" as an option.  One way to implement a "timed game" would be to enable the players to set a base time (i.e, 5 minutes, whatever), and an increment (i.e., 2 seconds).  Each player starts with the base time, and during his or her turn, it ticks down, while being increased by the increment with every action taken.  So the opponents' base time is the "dead time" I'm willing to invest in the game, since the increments offset the time spent by the opponent actually playing and taking action.  Players could even set separate (personal) base times and increments (perhaps as a profile setting), and the matching feature could enable the ability to accept only opponents meeting a chosen threshold for base time / increment.  In this way, players could be operating with different starting "base and increment" times, while all players are satisfied with the timing setting.

In my opinion, it would be good to have threads individuated for the discussion of options like these (and, I'm sure, many others that we can come up with collectively).  I'm simply not sure whether it would be better for us to each start threads for the topics, or whether it would be best for SCSN / Stef to create "official" ones that they could format in the way that would be most useful for them regarding future reference / implementation as they work on Shuffle iT's version.

Thoughts? 
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2016, 11:08:41 am »
+4

Quote
In my opinion, it would be good to have threads individuated for the discussion of options like these (and, I'm sure, many others that we can come up with collectively).  I'm simply not sure whether it would be better for us to each start threads for the topics, or whether it would be best for SCSN / Stef to create "official" ones that they could format in the way that would be most useful for them regarding future reference / implementation as they work on Shuffle iT's version.

I think SCSN has said they want to hold off announcing too many features because there's always a chance one doesn't get implemented on release. Remember when Goko promised Tournaments? MF promised Adventures?  Yeah...
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phoenix9797

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2016, 11:17:07 am »
0

Quote
In my opinion, it would be good to have threads individuated for the discussion of options like these (and, I'm sure, many others that we can come up with collectively).  I'm simply not sure whether it would be better for us to each start threads for the topics, or whether it would be best for SCSN / Stef to create "official" ones that they could format in the way that would be most useful for them regarding future reference / implementation as they work on Shuffle iT's version.

I think SCSN has said they want to hold off announcing too many features because there's always a chance one doesn't get implemented on release. Remember when Goko promised Tournaments? MF promised Adventures?  Yeah...

Ah--yes, I did not mean to imply that these would be endorsements or official "acceptances" for features in the new version; I just wanted to foster discussion (in an organized fashion) about features we'd like to see.  What I meant by the part you quoted was that there might be a specific means of discussion (separate threads, as I've suggested, or perhaps "clumped" threads, each of which contains all discussion about a general topic like social features (for example)) that Shuffle iT might prefer for ease of reference *in the event that* they decide to work on implementing a certain feature.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2016, 11:22:10 am »
+1

# Blacklisting players - think something was mentioned about this
# All sets - and a better timeframe for being added if/when new expansions occur (e.g. Empires)
# Reliability - if player has small connection blip, don't kick them out. Took MF ages to get this right
# First player choosing - for tournaments (guess this will be covered by Tournament Mode)
# A better rating system, with less drop-off if you don't play consistently
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2016, 01:42:48 pm »
+5

I prefer being able to blacklist abusive players rather than a timer. My biggest worry is that if people can arbitrarily set the matching criteria based on various speeds of playing the game, then this might lead to a system where no one gets matches up.

I'm not opposed to a timer, but it needs to be fair. Still, though, I think jerk players are the real problem and being able to flag them just sounds better to me.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2016, 09:37:09 pm »
+11

I think there should be tons of sparkling animations, with no way of turning them off. The animations should also be incredibly slow, with no way of speeding them up, and a delay between each playing of a card. The music should not be able to be turned off, and the sound effects should be incredibly obnoxious, loud, and sound like stock sound effects. Lastly, Dominion: Empire should not be released until 2018 at the very least. I think these are all great "features".

With love,

Lord Bottington
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2016, 03:31:18 am »
+10

3.  Ability to select "timed game" as an option.  One way to implement a "timed game" would be to enable the players to set a base time (i.e, 5 minutes, whatever), and an increment (i.e., 2 seconds).  Each player starts with the base time, and during his or her turn, it ticks down, while being increased by the increment with every action taken.  So the opponents' base time is the "dead time" I'm willing to invest in the game, since the increments offset the time spent by the opponent actually playing and taking action.  Players could even set separate (personal) base times and increments (perhaps as a profile setting), and the matching feature could enable the ability to accept only opponents meeting a chosen threshold for base time / increment.  In this way, players could be operating with different starting "base and increment" times, while all players are satisfied with the timing setting.

In my oppinion a timer should not be a standard feature for Dominion. It can be something like a special add-on, but the way Dominion is designed doesn't really fit a timer.
I think a lot of you are a bit influenced by chess, where timers work great since every move (not the thinking about it, but the move itself) takes almost the exact same amount of time. In Dominion, however, the difference between resolving Smithy and Scrying Pool can be huge. This means (and you've seen this with the Blitz feature in the MMF mod) that a timer greatly influences the strength of certain cards and the viability of certain strategies, which is not really the point of a timer.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2016, 04:53:55 am »
0

3.  Ability to select "timed game" as an option.  One way to implement a "timed game" would be to enable the players to set a base time (i.e, 5 minutes, whatever), and an increment (i.e., 2 seconds).  Each player starts with the base time, and during his or her turn, it ticks down, while being increased by the increment with every action taken.  So the opponents' base time is the "dead time" I'm willing to invest in the game, since the increments offset the time spent by the opponent actually playing and taking action.  Players could even set separate (personal) base times and increments (perhaps as a profile setting), and the matching feature could enable the ability to accept only opponents meeting a chosen threshold for base time / increment.  In this way, players could be operating with different starting "base and increment" times, while all players are satisfied with the timing setting.

In my oppinion a timer should not be a standard feature for Dominion. It can be something like a special add-on, but the way Dominion is designed doesn't really fit a timer.
I think a lot of you are a bit influenced by chess, where timers work great since every move (not the thinking about it, but the move itself) takes almost the exact same amount of time. In Dominion, however, the difference between resolving Smithy and Scrying Pool can be huge. This means (and you've seen this with the Blitz feature in the MMF mod) that a timer greatly influences the strength of certain cards and the viability of certain strategies, which is not really the point of a timer.

This.

And, the need to think on some kingdoms will become more pronounced when Adventures comes out. A 12 card kingdom requires much more thinking than a 10 card kingdom.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2016, 07:18:57 am »
+5

In my opinion, it would be good to have threads individuated for the discussion of options like these (and, I'm sure, many others that we can come up with collectively).  I'm simply not sure whether it would be better for us to each start threads for the topics, or whether it would be best for SCSN / Stef to create "official" ones that they could format in the way that would be most useful for them regarding future reference / implementation as they work on Shuffle iT's version.

Thoughts?

Feel free to discuss what you want where you want to, whether that be existing threads or new ones.

If you care about maximizing your impact, it's probably best to clearly state your general wishes and concerns and let us worry about addressing them (i.e. the implementation details).

In my oppinion a timer should not be a standard feature for Dominion.

It won't be, as stated elsewhere.

2. Ability to force a resignation after a very short waiting period (< 30 seconds?) when an opponent has connection issues.

Thirty seconds is extremely harsh. There should be enough time to return to your game after a computer crash.
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GendoIkari

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2016, 01:57:13 pm »
0

Thirty seconds is extremely harsh. There should be enough time to return to your game after a computer crash.

If your opponent doesn't have an SSD, that's his fault.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2016, 05:33:38 pm »
0

Thirty seconds is extremely harsh. There should be enough time to return to your game after a computer crash.

If your opponent doesn't have an SSD, that's his fault.

Yeah, on the same note, I don't understand the people complaining about overheating when running Making Fun.

Get a new computer, guys.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2016, 09:19:34 pm »
0

Thirty seconds is extremely harsh. There should be enough time to return to your game after a computer crash.

If your opponent doesn't have an SSD, that's his fault.

Yeah, on the same note, I don't understand the people complaining about overheating when running Making Fun.

Get a new computer, guys.

Goko actually killed my last computer from overheating
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2016, 09:21:21 pm »
+1

Thirty seconds is extremely harsh. There should be enough time to return to your game after a computer crash.

If your opponent doesn't have an SSD, that's his fault.

Yeah, on the same note, I don't understand the people complaining about overheating when running Making Fun.

Get a new computer, guys.

I have an i7 with 8 GB RAM and a mediocre graphics card, and it overheats my machine like crazy. I shouldn't need a top of the line system to run a card game. (Assuming you weren't joking)
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phoenix9797

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2016, 11:03:25 pm »
+1

3.  Ability to select "timed game" as an option.  One way to implement a "timed game" would be to enable the players to set a base time (i.e, 5 minutes, whatever), and an increment (i.e., 2 seconds).  Each player starts with the base time, and during his or her turn, it ticks down, while being increased by the increment with every action taken.  So the opponents' base time is the "dead time" I'm willing to invest in the game, since the increments offset the time spent by the opponent actually playing and taking action.  Players could even set separate (personal) base times and increments (perhaps as a profile setting), and the matching feature could enable the ability to accept only opponents meeting a chosen threshold for base time / increment.  In this way, players could be operating with different starting "base and increment" times, while all players are satisfied with the timing setting.

In my oppinion a timer should not be a standard feature for Dominion. It can be something like a special add-on, but the way Dominion is designed doesn't really fit a timer.
I think a lot of you are a bit influenced by chess, where timers work great since every move (not the thinking about it, but the move itself) takes almost the exact same amount of time. In Dominion, however, the difference between resolving Smithy and Scrying Pool can be huge. This means (and you've seen this with the Blitz feature in the MMF mod) that a timer greatly influences the strength of certain cards and the viability of certain strategies, which is not really the point of a timer.

Well, the idea is that *every* action you take during your turn would trigger the increment.  So every time you play Scrying Pool on your turn, you trigger the increment.  Every time you play Smithy, you trigger the increment.  This way, it does not matter which cards are in the kingdom; it just matters that play proceeds with reasonable flow, even if entire turns vary drastically in terms of their actual length.  Both a quick Smithy turn and a lengthy Scrying Pool turn would result in (approximately) the same time remaining in the bank, if the player plays both turns with the same pace.
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2016, 01:21:30 am »
+2

Thirty seconds is extremely harsh. There should be enough time to return to your game after a computer crash.

If your opponent doesn't have an SSD, that's his fault.

Yeah, on the same note, I don't understand the people complaining about overheating when running Making Fun.

Get a new computer, guys.

I have an i7 with 8 GB RAM and a mediocre graphics card, and it overheats my machine like crazy. I shouldn't need a top of the line system to run a card game. (Assuming you weren't joking)

I was joking.
As somebody who spent 3 years of my life trying to cooperate with a legacy pc as my only machine (15 y.o.), I'm annoyed by the notion of having high hardware requirements just because "there is technology that could handle this".

So yeah, irony.

I'm sorry for your computer, Beyond Awesome. :/
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2016, 02:53:15 am »
0

3.  Ability to select "timed game" as an option.  One way to implement a "timed game" would be to enable the players to set a base time (i.e, 5 minutes, whatever), and an increment (i.e., 2 seconds).  Each player starts with the base time, and during his or her turn, it ticks down, while being increased by the increment with every action taken.  So the opponents' base time is the "dead time" I'm willing to invest in the game, since the increments offset the time spent by the opponent actually playing and taking action.  Players could even set separate (personal) base times and increments (perhaps as a profile setting), and the matching feature could enable the ability to accept only opponents meeting a chosen threshold for base time / increment.  In this way, players could be operating with different starting "base and increment" times, while all players are satisfied with the timing setting.

In my oppinion a timer should not be a standard feature for Dominion. It can be something like a special add-on, but the way Dominion is designed doesn't really fit a timer.
I think a lot of you are a bit influenced by chess, where timers work great since every move (not the thinking about it, but the move itself) takes almost the exact same amount of time. In Dominion, however, the difference between resolving Smithy and Scrying Pool can be huge. This means (and you've seen this with the Blitz feature in the MMF mod) that a timer greatly influences the strength of certain cards and the viability of certain strategies, which is not really the point of a timer.

Well, the idea is that *every* action you take during your turn would trigger the increment.  So every time you play Scrying Pool on your turn, you trigger the increment.  Every time you play Smithy, you trigger the increment.  This way, it does not matter which cards are in the kingdom; it just matters that play proceeds with reasonable flow, even if entire turns vary drastically in terms of their actual length.  Both a quick Smithy turn and a lengthy Scrying Pool turn would result in (approximately) the same time remaining in the bank, if the player plays both turns with the same pace.
Your turn:
Play Cartographer (+5 seconds), draw card, look at top 4 cards, decide which to discard, rearrange the rest (takes 8 seconds)
Play Scrying Pool (+5 seconds), decide on opponent's card, decide on own card, draw a shitload of cards (takes 5 seconds)
Net: -3 seconds

My turn:
Play Village (+5 seconds), draw card (takes 1 second)
Play Smithy (+5 seconds), draw 3 cards (takes 1 second)
Net: +8 seconds
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2016, 03:14:48 am »
+2

The most important thing for me would be a good pairing system.

Ideally, you'd like to find an equally skilled opponent within a couple of seconds.
Manually setting all kinds of parameters (like "my rating +/- 500", "these sets, but not these", etc. isn't really helpful.


It would be really cool if we could spectate matches between high level players, maybe seeing all of their cards (although this might be prone to abuse; perhaps players could opt-out of showing their hand cards).
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2016, 03:23:32 am »
0

3.  Ability to select "timed game" as an option.  One way to implement a "timed game" would be to enable the players to set a base time (i.e, 5 minutes, whatever), and an increment (i.e., 2 seconds).  Each player starts with the base time, and during his or her turn, it ticks down, while being increased by the increment with every action taken.  So the opponents' base time is the "dead time" I'm willing to invest in the game, since the increments offset the time spent by the opponent actually playing and taking action.  Players could even set separate (personal) base times and increments (perhaps as a profile setting), and the matching feature could enable the ability to accept only opponents meeting a chosen threshold for base time / increment.  In this way, players could be operating with different starting "base and increment" times, while all players are satisfied with the timing setting.

In my oppinion a timer should not be a standard feature for Dominion. It can be something like a special add-on, but the way Dominion is designed doesn't really fit a timer.
I think a lot of you are a bit influenced by chess, where timers work great since every move (not the thinking about it, but the move itself) takes almost the exact same amount of time. In Dominion, however, the difference between resolving Smithy and Scrying Pool can be huge. This means (and you've seen this with the Blitz feature in the MMF mod) that a timer greatly influences the strength of certain cards and the viability of certain strategies, which is not really the point of a timer.

Well, the idea is that *every* action you take during your turn would trigger the increment.  So every time you play Scrying Pool on your turn, you trigger the increment.  Every time you play Smithy, you trigger the increment.  This way, it does not matter which cards are in the kingdom; it just matters that play proceeds with reasonable flow, even if entire turns vary drastically in terms of their actual length.  Both a quick Smithy turn and a lengthy Scrying Pool turn would result in (approximately) the same time remaining in the bank, if the player plays both turns with the same pace.
Your turn:
Play Cartographer (+5 seconds), draw card, look at top 4 cards, decide which to discard, rearrange the rest (takes 8 seconds)
Play Scrying Pool (+5 seconds), decide on opponent's card, decide on own card, draw a shitload of cards (takes 5 seconds)
Net: -3 seconds

My turn:
Play Village (+5 seconds), draw card (takes 1 second)
Play Smithy (+5 seconds), draw 3 cards (takes 1 second)
Net: +8 seconds
Although it's not common in chess, I think delays would work a lot better than increments in Dominion. With a delay, the clock freezes for a short amount of time after a move but extra time is never added to your total. With a ~3 second delay after every decision, the clock won't count down while you are making simple decisions but will when you are making more complicated ones. The Cartographer/Scrying Pool player loses very little time drawing their deck because they are making so many decisions that the clock is frozen for most of their turn and the Village/Smithy player doesn't gain any time by making a simple engine because unused time isn't added back to their clock. They each end up having close to the same amount of time to make the big decisions like what to buy. Some strategies will obviously still require a lot more thinking time to play, but with a sufficiently long time control (15 minute time bank per player + X minutes increment added per turn + Y seconds delay per "decision") I don't think it would make any decks unplayable.

In any case, it doesn't sound like this is something that many people want. It would definitely need to be optional and that might end up splitting the player pool and increasing the wait to find a game. Maybe it's something worth experimenting with a bit down the line if there are a lot of players.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 03:50:28 am by Arctic Penguin »
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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2016, 04:56:46 am »
+2

The most important thing for me would be a good pairing system.

Ideally, you'd like to find an equally skilled opponent within a couple of seconds.
Manually setting all kinds of parameters (like "my rating +/- 500", "these sets, but not these", etc. isn't really helpful.


It would be really cool if we could spectate matches between high level players, maybe seeing all of their cards (although this might be prone to abuse; perhaps players could opt-out of showing their hand cards).

I also think spectating matches would be a really nice feature. A small delay in the stream would probably remove most potential for abuse.
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phoenix9797

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2016, 08:48:41 am »
0

3.  Ability to select "timed game" as an option.  One way to implement a "timed game" would be to enable the players to set a base time (i.e, 5 minutes, whatever), and an increment (i.e., 2 seconds).  Each player starts with the base time, and during his or her turn, it ticks down, while being increased by the increment with every action taken.  So the opponents' base time is the "dead time" I'm willing to invest in the game, since the increments offset the time spent by the opponent actually playing and taking action.  Players could even set separate (personal) base times and increments (perhaps as a profile setting), and the matching feature could enable the ability to accept only opponents meeting a chosen threshold for base time / increment.  In this way, players could be operating with different starting "base and increment" times, while all players are satisfied with the timing setting.

In my oppinion a timer should not be a standard feature for Dominion. It can be something like a special add-on, but the way Dominion is designed doesn't really fit a timer.
I think a lot of you are a bit influenced by chess, where timers work great since every move (not the thinking about it, but the move itself) takes almost the exact same amount of time. In Dominion, however, the difference between resolving Smithy and Scrying Pool can be huge. This means (and you've seen this with the Blitz feature in the MMF mod) that a timer greatly influences the strength of certain cards and the viability of certain strategies, which is not really the point of a timer.

Well, the idea is that *every* action you take during your turn would trigger the increment.  So every time you play Scrying Pool on your turn, you trigger the increment.  Every time you play Smithy, you trigger the increment.  This way, it does not matter which cards are in the kingdom; it just matters that play proceeds with reasonable flow, even if entire turns vary drastically in terms of their actual length.  Both a quick Smithy turn and a lengthy Scrying Pool turn would result in (approximately) the same time remaining in the bank, if the player plays both turns with the same pace.
Your turn:
Play Cartographer (+5 seconds), draw card, look at top 4 cards, decide which to discard, rearrange the rest (takes 8 seconds)
Play Scrying Pool (+5 seconds), decide on opponent's card, decide on own card, draw a shitload of cards (takes 5 seconds)
Net: -3 seconds

My turn:
Play Village (+5 seconds), draw card (takes 1 second)
Play Smithy (+5 seconds), draw 3 cards (takes 1 second)
Net: +8 seconds

This is remedied by having *every decision acted upon* trigger the increment, as I've been trying to suggest.  (I think I've not been as clear as I should have been.)  When you make the decision on the 4 cards for Cartographer, that is 4 triggers of the increment.  Scrying Pool triggers it 3 times: when you play the card, when you decide about your top card, and when you decide about your opponents' top card.

The idea here is NOT to make time / speed a way to win a game.  The idea is to ensure that when I start playing a game, I will ACTUALLY be playing a game, not sitting there after each of my turns until my opponent decides to return from surfing the web while I'm playing my turn.  Since each person chooses his or her own base time + increment, and chooses an acceptable threshold for his/her opponent's base time and threshold, the result would be a game that flows according to a pace both players are happy with.  If it's not flowing at that pace, the player causing the delay will end up losing once time runs out, which is exactly the point.  If you've caused the game to drag on longer than the amount of dead time agreed to by your opponent, then that is the very reason the timer is in place, so your opponent should be credited with a victory and both can go their separate ways, either to finish whatever random task you were trying to accomplish while playing Dominion, or to play a game with an opponent who will remain attentive and active during the game.

This would be a setting ("Timer" or something) just like the current setting regarding the point counter: you could set it to "Always," you could set it to "Prefer to use it," you could set it to "Prefer not to use it," and you could set it to "Never."  If you choose any of the first 3 settings, you'd need to specify your base time and increment, as well as the acceptable level for your opponents' base time and increment.

Thus, for those saying that it would slow down your ability to get an automatch, you would just set it to one of the "Prefer..." settings, which would match you as you prefer (if available), or against whichever opponent is ready to play if your preference is not available.
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Seprix

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2016, 10:18:54 am »
0

Thirty seconds is extremely harsh. There should be enough time to return to your game after a computer crash.

If your opponent doesn't have an SSD, that's his fault.

Yeah, on the same note, I don't understand the people complaining about overheating when running Making Fun.

Get a new computer, guys.

I use a computer from 2014. Making Fun sucks up like 99% of the processing power. It's incredible how poorly the app was made.
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Awaclus

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2016, 10:24:54 am »
+2

Thirty seconds is extremely harsh. There should be enough time to return to your game after a computer crash.

If your opponent doesn't have an SSD, that's his fault.

Yeah, on the same note, I don't understand the people complaining about overheating when running Making Fun.

Get a new computer, guys.

I use a computer from 2014.

It's a Mac though.
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Seprix

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2016, 10:29:38 am »
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It's a Mac though.

Shouldn't make any sort of difference, you PC Elitist.
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werothegreat

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2016, 10:31:42 am »
+4

It's a Mac though.

Shouldn't make any sort of difference, you PC Elitist.

Macs are bad, and you should feel bad.
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Seprix

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Re: "Features" threads
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2016, 10:46:15 am »
+2

It's a Mac though.

Shouldn't make any sort of difference, you PC Elitist.

Macs are bad, and you should feel bad.

Macs aren't bad. Give me a break. People hate Macs because it's cool to hate on them. It's just different. I hate the Windows interface, but I'm not pretending it's inferior. I'm not even opposed to building a 'Hackintosh', and I'll probably do that one day. It's cheaper and more powerful, and it has the interface I like.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 10:47:18 am by Seprix »
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