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Author Topic: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary  (Read 4866 times)

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Jack Rudd

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Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« on: April 20, 2016, 08:13:21 pm »
+2



It's like Scout, only useful!

This card had the interesting distinction of making it into the Best Five and Worst Five potion-cost cards lists. Which is a truer reflection of its strength?
How strong is its synergy with cards that care about Copper?
How good is its deck-inspection ability?
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Seprix

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2016, 08:17:57 pm »
0

/tag
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2016, 08:55:10 pm »
0

/tag
Why? Becaue you want to see Jack Rudd get roasted after insulting Scout in such a bold manner?

Forget 'Let's Discuss.' This topic is going straight to RSP!
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Seprix

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2016, 09:22:03 pm »
+2

Forget 'Let's Discuss.' This topic is going straight to RSP!

Roadrunner's Scout Party is triggering.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 09:23:18 pm by Seprix »
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werothegreat

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2016, 10:18:54 pm »
+2

I find myself consistently underrating Apothecary, and consistently surprised when my opponent makes an Apothecary engine and wins.  It's a pretty good card.
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Seprix

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2016, 10:33:56 pm »
0

I find myself consistently underrating Apothecary, and consistently surprised when my opponent makes an Apothecary engine and wins.  It's a pretty good card.

I don't underrate it at all. It's a fantastic card. The ability to reorder your deck gives you so much control.
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Titandrake

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2016, 10:37:37 pm »
0

Recently, I have bought Apothecary every time it was on the board. In exactly one of those games, I was not mirrored. I lost that game, because Apothecary wasn't good enough there.

Turns out when you buy a card 100% of the time, you're overbuying that card. Who knew? At the same time, I'm not good at deciding when to avoid Apothecary, evidently most of my opponents aren't either, and it's never felt especially wrong. Any +Buy, and any action not named Apothecary that lets you draw the junk that accumulates, is enough to give it a look.

Think of Apothecary as letting you pseudo-ignore the Coppers in your deck while giving you $ each play and you can see why it's strong.
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2016, 02:29:10 am »
+2

Apothecary often feels like a reverse Tactician.

Have a great turn now, have a bad turn next.
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2016, 02:41:20 am »
+2

Fun fact: When I first started playing Dominion, I underrated Apothecary because I knew Scout was bad, and I figured Apothecary would be similar - it only draws junk cards.  It wasn't until I found the potion-cost card rankings that I reconsidered.

I buy Apothecary a lot.  I usually buy it whenever there isn't strong trashing or a strong engine without it.

One problem I run into is what to do on the early hands without a potion or the later hands where I miss $8.  Is it a good idea to add other good cantrips (say, Caravan or Ironmonger) to an Apothecary deck, or do they clog it up too much?
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2016, 04:32:30 am »
+1

goes great with ambassador: open potion/ambassador, then send back estate whenever possible (contra the usual ambassador rule to send back two coppers rather than one estate).
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E.Honda

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2016, 05:12:29 am »
0

Apothecary is a really hard to master card i think. I used to not even consider it most of the time but then got crushed in a lot of games where my opponent went for it and I didnt.

I think its main strenghts are it's versatility and the speed it adds to a deck when theres only really weak or no trashing. It can even be worth it to just get 1 or 2 in the early game to speed up cycling while transitioning into another strategy when theres nothing good to do with your opening $4, and the reordering ability is also really useful.

It also works really well with the other potion cost cards that you want to spam, ie familiar, Alchemist and scrying Pool if theres +buy. You just get a second potion, 1-3 apothecaries first and then suddenly find yourself buying and drawing 2 Alchemists/scrying pools every turn.

Regarding apothecary + familiar i remember a game i played last season in the league, I think it was against scotty2hotty. We both opened potion/something and he got really unlucky on his First shuffle and drew C/P/E/E/E so he had to use his Baker token to buy at least an apothecary. I on the other Hand conveniently got my familiar and thougt i was gonna win the curse split easily, but he managed to keep up and his apothecaries were a lot more useful once the curses had run out than my additional familiars. I was really surprised that his shuffle 1 "dud" apothecary buy turned out so nicely for him in the end.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 05:15:22 am by E.Honda »
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Max

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2016, 05:29:14 am »
+1

One problem I run into is what to do on the early hands without a potion or the later hands where I miss $8.  Is it a good idea to add other good cantrips (say, Caravan or Ironmonger) to an Apothecary deck, or do they clog it up too much?

Simply, yes. Ironmonger is the perfect card to add since after the play of an apothecary you can discard your victory card and draw a second card. Ironmonger is best when you have deck sorting abilities. Herald is another good addition.

Caravan is okay, it's no better than normal. Maybe worse? (Thinking out loud:)
You leave behind a silt of estates on top of your deck. Your next hand has three estates and a copper and a wishing well (benefits from top decking), adding a card due to caravan to a disappointing hand is going to do little, if you get a key card (say goons) you could be left disappointed with a lacklustre 3/4 buy. Every Soften it'll kick start an engine, but you'd need a few to ensure that, and that might cause a troubled turn just as easily. And another wishing well would be way more useful.
Is it the worst? No, but I'd be stretched to pick it first if other cantrips were around. Cellar might even be more useful.

It is rare that apothecary is the backbone of an engine, but it's a great enabler. Apothecaries without enabling choke up without assistance.
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Chris is me

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2016, 08:22:02 am »
+1

Played an interesting Apothecary game recently.

The game had a bunch of stuff in it but a weak Plaza / Courtyard draw engine with Appthecary, Training, and Counterfeit for +Buy. Some shitty card to trash Estates too that I don't remember, maybe Develop? Anyway, I needed to (or wanted to) trash Copper and Potion a bit to use Counterfeit well, but I didn't want Apothecary to be useless, so I bought Apoth early, spiked 6, and put my Training token on it. A Peddler variant that removes weak stop cards and rearranges the top of your deck is really good, and Apoth is great at spiking the high costs needed for Token events. I ended up getting rid of the Counterfeit pretty quickly but still was down to 5 copper, and Apothecary stayed good!
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2016, 06:08:28 pm »
0

It can even be worth it to just get 1 or 2 in the early game to speed up cycling while transitioning into another strategy when theres nothing good to do with your opening $4

I am not convinced that this is really a thing.  Yes, cycling is one of Apothecary's main benefits.  But I don't think I've ever gone for Potion / Apothecary specifically for its early-game benefits.  Getting an Apothecary specifically for that would feel like getting a Feast, except even slower.  If I ever want to invest in Apothecaries, I will want them to help me out the entire game.  Yes, their early tricks are awesome, but they better also give me some use for the entire game.

EDIT: I guess I can maybe see doing this with Forge --- Getting a Potion and some Apothecaries, spiking $7 for a Forge, then Forging away everything (potentially including the Potion).  But I've never done that.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 06:09:48 pm by Dingan »
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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2016, 06:14:16 pm »
+2

It can even be worth it to just get 1 or 2 in the early game to speed up cycling while transitioning into another strategy when theres nothing good to do with your opening $4

I am not convinced that this is really a thing.  Yes, cycling is one of Apothecary's main benefits.  But I don't think I've ever gone for Potion / Apothecary specifically for its early-game benefits.  Getting an Apothecary specifically for that would feel like getting a Feast, except even slower.  If I ever want to invest in Apothecaries, I will want them to help me out the entire game.  Yes, their early tricks are awesome, but they better also give me some use for the entire game.

EDIT: I guess I can maybe see doing this with Forge --- Getting a Potion and some Apothecaries, spiking $7 for a Forge, then Forging away everything (potentially including the Potion).  But I've never done that.

Nah, you definitely want to get Apothecary specifically for its early game benefits. That's like the whole point of Apothecary! Buy expensive things early. King's Court, Forge, Hunting Grounds, Pilgrimage, Lost Arts, Training, Tournament, these are all great reasons to go Apothecary. Even if you end up trashing some or all of the Coppers, a cantrip that rearranges your draw order is honestly fine. There's no cost to Apothecary once you've already bought and gotten use out of it.
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E.Honda

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Re: Let's discuss Alchemy cards: Apothecary
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2016, 03:05:13 am »
0

It can even be worth it to just get 1 or 2 in the early game to speed up cycling while transitioning into another strategy when theres nothing good to do with your opening $4

I am not convinced that this is really a thing.  Yes, cycling is one of Apothecary's main benefits.  But I don't think I've ever gone for Potion / Apothecary specifically for its early-game benefits.  Getting an Apothecary specifically for that would feel like getting a Feast, except even slower.  If I ever want to invest in Apothecaries, I will want them to help me out the entire game.  Yes, their early tricks are awesome, but they better also give me some use for the entire game.

EDIT: I guess I can maybe see doing this with Forge --- Getting a Potion and some Apothecaries, spiking $7 for a Forge, then Forging away everything (potentially including the Potion).  But I've never done that.

Nah, you definitely want to get Apothecary specifically for its early game benefits. That's like the whole point of Apothecary! Buy expensive things early. King's Court, Forge, Hunting Grounds, Pilgrimage, Lost Arts, Training, Tournament, these are all great reasons to go Apothecary. Even if you end up trashing some or all of the Coppers, a cantrip that rearranges your draw order is honestly fine. There's no cost to Apothecary once you've already bought and gotten use out of it.

Yeah i think it was stuff like that i had in mind when i wrote that Passage, granted those Situations are rare. I can also see apothecarys cycling being very beneficial to travellers
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