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Author Topic: Recycling cards  (Read 4182 times)

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Haddock

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Recycling cards
« on: April 20, 2016, 05:37:43 am »
+3

So I just had this thought.  It's not at all well-formed yet, but thought it was worth throwing out there for some theory crafting.

Recycle - $2 Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard one of your cards other than a Recycle from play.

The idea being to then redraw and play again some action (or potentially Treasure) card you already played.

Questions:
Is this priced correctly at $2?  It's awful until you're drawing your deck, and then it seems pretty strong, so it's hard to tell.
Weird interactions - obviously to avoid infinite loops it can't discard a copy of itself.  One issue is Inheritance inheriting Recycle, which would open up the same problem again.  Perhaps it should be "non-Victory".  How do durations work with this?  I think they'd just work as normal, only tracking becomes tougher.
Does this sort of effect ever have a place in Dominion?
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

AdrianHealey

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2016, 05:41:31 am »
+1

Interesting idea.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2016, 06:05:16 am »
0

Yeah, it's a very cool idea. It does give you some tracking issues though. Say you play some Village, then a Woodcutter, then a Recycle, discarding the Woodcutter. You need to have a way to remind yourself that you still get the +$2 and +1 Buy. Then again, there are a lot of cards with tracking issues like these (which is one of the reasons playing online is easier).

It's probably fine at $2. It's only useful if you draw your deck, otherwise it's a vanilla cantrip (which can be useful at times, mind you - Peddler, Conspirator, Scrying Pool, Advisor, Envoy). Once you draw your deck, it essentially emulates another card, usually one that costs more than $2. But it can't emulate everything; emulating something with a while-in-play clause like Highway or Goons is useless. Best case scenario you discard a King's Court or something, which you can then use to triple a different action card. But it's difficult enough to line this stuff up, so $2 should work.
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majiponi

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2016, 06:55:08 am »
0

I think this is too narrow. Just a cantrip until the reshuffle. You have to play non-terminal Action before playing this. Many Actions are terminal, and Villages are not always in Supply. Usually 9-card Kingdom.
It is OK writing a rarely-used card like Rats and Transmute, but I will devise this.
Quote
Recycle
cost $4 - Action
+1 Card
+2 Action
You may discard one of your cards other than a Recycle from play.
This doesn't break your idea and works in more Kingdoms.
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Haddock

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2016, 07:01:32 am »
0

I think this is too narrow. Just a cantrip until the reshuffle. You have to play non-terminal Action before playing this. Many Actions are terminal, and Villages are not always in Supply. Usually 9-card Kingdom.
It is OK writing a rarely-used card like Rats and Transmute, but I will devise this.
Quote
Recycle
cost $4 - Action
+1 Card
+2 Action
You may discard one of your cards other than a Recycle from play.
This doesn't break your idea and works in more Kingdoms.
You're right. I like that much better. Maybe call it "Mirage Village" or something to fit the theme.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

tristan

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2016, 06:05:49 am »
0

Not sure about whether I like the cantrip or the village version better but this mechanism is definitely good and above all new.
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ben_king

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2016, 12:47:33 pm »
+1

I like it, but there are some tracking issues with Durations, which would still give you their effect next turn even though they would not be in play.

Hireling+Recycle would be nuts.  Like Hireling+Bonfire+Graverobber, except way easier.

Still, I like the novelty of it.
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trivialknot

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2016, 02:05:30 pm »
0

Inheritance + recycle = infinite turns?
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majiponi

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2016, 08:15:15 pm »
0

I like it, but there are some tracking issues with Durations, which would still give you their effect next turn even though they would not be in play.

Hireling+Recycle would be nuts.  Like Hireling+Bonfire+Graverobber, except way easier.

Still, I like the novelty of it.
Procession-Procession-Hireling-Rogue is another one.

Inheritance + recycle = infinite turns?
Nop. Outpost has a guard.
Although Recycle enables infinite combo!

King's Court, Procession, Band of Misfits, Rogue, Margrave
KC-KC-PC-3BoM(RC)-RG-KC-MG
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trivialknot

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2016, 07:28:20 pm »
0

I think infinite combos are easier with Inheritance than with Band of Misfits.  If you play a Band of Misfits, it becomes Recycle, and thus cannot discard itself from play.  However, if you inherit Recycle, then Estates are still called Estates, and can therefore discard themselves from play.

Consider: Inheritance + recycle + king's court + market
Play Market.
Play King's Court, playing Estate three times. Discard all cards from play and draw them again.
Repeat infinitely, buy the supply.
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Haddock

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2016, 07:49:17 pm »
0

I think infinite combos are easier with Inheritance than with Band of Misfits.  If you play a Band of Misfits, it becomes Recycle, and thus cannot discard itself from play.  However, if you inherit Recycle, then Estates are still called Estates, and can therefore discard themselves from play.

Consider: Inheritance + recycle + king's court + market
Play Market.
Play King's Court, playing Estate three times. Discard all cards from play and draw them again.
Repeat infinitely, buy the supply.
Exactly.
This is why I suggest the restriction "non-victory" in the op to avoid inheritance issues.
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

majiponi

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2016, 04:00:54 am »
0

I think infinite combos are easier with Inheritance than with Band of Misfits.  If you play a Band of Misfits, it becomes Recycle, and thus cannot discard itself from play.  However, if you inherit Recycle, then Estates are still called Estates, and can therefore discard themselves from play.

Consider: Inheritance + recycle + king's court + market
Play Market.
Play King's Court, playing Estate three times. Discard all cards from play and draw them again.
Repeat infinitely, buy the supply.
Exactly.
This is why I suggest the restriction "non-victory" in the op to avoid inheritance issues.
Well, this problem is similar to KC-KC-Goons-Masq. Infinite combo appears only 3 components (KC, RC, and Inheritance) are in board. That's ok.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2016, 07:32:19 am »
0

I think infinite combos are easier with Inheritance than with Band of Misfits.  If you play a Band of Misfits, it becomes Recycle, and thus cannot discard itself from play.  However, if you inherit Recycle, then Estates are still called Estates, and can therefore discard themselves from play.

Consider: Inheritance + recycle + king's court + market
Play Market.
Play King's Court, playing Estate three times. Discard all cards from play and draw them again.
Repeat infinitely, buy the supply.
Exactly.
This is why I suggest the restriction "non-victory" in the op to avoid inheritance issues.
Well, this problem is similar to KC-KC-Goons-Masq. Infinite combo appears only 3 components (KC, RC, and Inheritance) are in board. That's ok.
Um, it requires 4 components. And keep in mind that Donald X. said that he would have prevented that pin if he had caught it.
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tristan

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2016, 07:55:27 am »
0

I think infinite combos are easier with Inheritance than with Band of Misfits.  If you play a Band of Misfits, it becomes Recycle, and thus cannot discard itself from play.  However, if you inherit Recycle, then Estates are still called Estates, and can therefore discard themselves from play.

Consider: Inheritance + recycle + king's court + market
Play Market.
Play King's Court, playing Estate three times. Discard all cards from play and draw them again.
Repeat infinitely, buy the supply.
Exactly.
This is why I suggest the restriction "non-victory" in the op to avoid inheritance issues.
Well, this problem is similar to KC-KC-Goons-Masq. Infinite combo appears only 3 components (KC, RC, and Inheritance) are in board. That's ok.
Um, it requires 4 components. And keep in mind that Donald X. said that he would have prevented that pin if he had caught it.
One purpose of a game like Dominion is to have unanticipated combos. The folks who came up with chess did most likely not guess in their wildest dreams that one day there will be thousands of books written on the game and other folks making a living via playing this very game. A creator is not necessarily smarter than his creation which can take on a life of its own.

So what I am saying is that I would not worry about funky combos that rarely arise anyway but rather think about whether the general concept is good or not. And I think that it is pretty good. In thin decks all kind of funky combos already exist in Dominion anyway and this is not a big issue as a think deck with some powerful cards in it is strong with or without strong combos.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2016, 08:06:52 am »
0

I think infinite combos are easier with Inheritance than with Band of Misfits.  If you play a Band of Misfits, it becomes Recycle, and thus cannot discard itself from play.  However, if you inherit Recycle, then Estates are still called Estates, and can therefore discard themselves from play.

Consider: Inheritance + recycle + king's court + market
Play Market.
Play King's Court, playing Estate three times. Discard all cards from play and draw them again.
Repeat infinitely, buy the supply.
Exactly.
This is why I suggest the restriction "non-victory" in the op to avoid inheritance issues.
Well, this problem is similar to KC-KC-Goons-Masq. Infinite combo appears only 3 components (KC, RC, and Inheritance) are in board. That's ok.
Um, it requires 4 components. And keep in mind that Donald X. said that he would have prevented that pin if he had caught it.
One purpose of a game like Dominion is to have unanticipated combos. The folks who came up with chess did most likely not guess in their wildest dreams that one day there will be thousands of books written on the game and other folks making a living via playing this very game. A creator is not necessarily smarter than his creation which can take on a life of its own.

So what I am saying is that I would not worry about funky combos that rarely arise anyway but rather think about whether the general concept is good or not. And I think that it is pretty good. In thin decks all kind of funky combos already exist in Dominion anyway and this is not a big issue as a think deck with some powerful cards in it is strong with or without strong combos.
I prefer when I make fan cards for them to be as similar to official dominion cards a possible. Now I realize other people may not be so picky, and that's fine. If you don't mind this combo to exist, than you are certainly free to play with it. I get that this board won't come up very often, but I still would prefer combos like this to be as hard as possible to get if at all. I still don't play with fortress on TfB boards.
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tristan

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2016, 08:24:15 am »
0

About fan cards, I think it is fine to play within existing parameters as well as expanding those very parameters. That's what DXV does after all, he comes up with new stuff but Adventures had some vanilla cards.

About broken combos, I think Fortress is one of the most fun cards and even a Fortress-Bishop game can be interesting. You do still have to balance the amount of Fortresses and Bishops in your deck.
Personally I have less of a problem with strong combos and more of a problem with cards that are overpowered in and of themselves. Fool's Gold (only in 2P games though), Minion, Wharf and above all Rebuild come to mind.

Back to Recycle, it usually takes quite some time until you can actually draw your entire deck so Recycle doesn't seem to be a powerhouse on the first glance. Most often, probably more often than 3/4 times you play it, it would just be a cantrip respectively village.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 08:26:07 am by tristan »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2016, 08:32:41 am »
0

Quote
Recycle
cost $4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard one of your cards other than recycle from play. If you do not: + 1 Action.

Quote
Recycle
cost $4 - Action
+1 Card
You may discard one of your cards other than recycle from play. If you do not: +2 Actions.

Quote
Recycle
cost $4 - Action
You may discard one of your cards other than recycle from play. If you do not, +1 Card, +2 Actions.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 08:37:16 am by AdrianHealey »
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Gubump

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2016, 08:40:06 am »
0

Personally I have less of a problem with strong combos and more of a problem with cards that are overpowered in and of themselves.

It depends. I don't usually worry about strong combos with my fan cards either, unless they're omnipotent combos. As in, if you have this combo, you WILL win, and there's nothing anybody else can do about it. And while it is fun to completely dominate everyone, it isn't much fun playing a game that you know your doomed to lose no matter what you do. And I can say both of those things from experience, although there is usually hope for the people who are doing badly.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 08:41:10 am by Gubump »
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tristan

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2016, 08:48:40 am »
0

Personally I have less of a problem with strong combos and more of a problem with cards that are overpowered in and of themselves.
And while it is fun to completely dominate everyone, it isn't much fun playing a game that you know your doomed to lose no matter what you do.
When I play Dominion we do not mind ending the game prematurely if one player completely dominates. Sure, then we don't know who would have made second place but the main purpose is to keep the game fun and understandably a total domination by one player is boring for everybody.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Recycling cards
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2016, 08:58:46 am »
0

I get that it's different because it can let you play the same card twice in a turn, but the facts that is it very niche and creates intense tracking issues (especially with Duration cards) surely make Scheme the better of this concept.
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