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Author Topic: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons  (Read 25348 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2016, 07:24:58 pm »
0

The characteristics in common aren't strategically relevant, since the characteristic is that they don't have characteristics in common with the other four archetypes.  That makes the categorization a catch-all instead of something actually useful.

All of the archetypes have characteristics that they don't have in common with the other four archetypes. That doesn't mean that they aren't actually useful.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2016, 07:30:33 pm »
0

The characteristics in common aren't strategically relevant, since the characteristic is that they don't have characteristics in common with the other four archetypes.  That makes the categorization a catch-all instead of something actually useful.

All of the archetypes have characteristics that they don't have in common with the other four archetypes. That doesn't mean that they aren't actually useful.

They also have characteristics in common with each other.  They aren't catch-all categories; you can define them on their own.  But you defined "combo deck" only by what it is not.
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Seprix

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2016, 07:44:36 pm »
+1

Well, I was going to continue with writing some argument, but I frankly just don't have the energy.
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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2016, 07:48:52 pm »
0

You are literally the only one who uses combo to mean what you think it should mean on this forum. Don't expect people to interpret what you say the way you want it to and certainly don't correct people using it the way everyone else does.

Presumably you are using "literally" in the figurative sense, because there have been people agreeing with me when we have had this discussion in the past.

I'm pretty sure literally nobody is going to agree with your definition if it includes this:

If, by "your starting 10 cards", you mean a strategy where you never buy anything, then yes, that's a combo.
He also literally didn't address the point of my post, and the thread which his quote is in features overwhelming support for the reasonable position and hardly any for his. Time for Yuma's quotes, I think.
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Awaclus

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2016, 03:45:29 am »
0

But you defined "combo deck" only by what it is not.

That is not true.

Combo decks, in contrast, are based on throwing all the regular strategy principles out of the window because of a very specific situation.

He also literally didn't address the point of my post, and the thread which his quote is in features overwhelming support for the reasonable position and hardly any for his. Time for Yuma's quotes, I think.

What was the point of your post? And no, the thread I quoted does not feature overwhelming support for the reasonable position, the overwhelming support is for the position that makes people worse at playing Dominion.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2016, 05:10:51 pm »
+1

But you defined "combo deck" only by what it is not.

That is not true.

Combo decks, in contrast, are based on throwing all the regular strategy principles out of the window because of a very specific situation.

I was going by your initial definition, but OK, fair enough.  Even so, this (newer) definition isn't all that useful for getting better at Dominion.  The whole point of your definition is still that that they don't share characteristics in common with other strategies, including other combo decks.  And using such a broad definition for "combo" is just nonsensical when it allows you to include decks that don't use any special combination of cards at all.

And no, the thread I quoted does not feature overwhelming support for the reasonable position, the overwhelming support is for the position that makes people worse at playing Dominion.

False.  Using terminology that the majority of people disagree with is the position that makes people worse at playing Dominion.  You can still talk about the same strategy concepts using the language that everybody else is happy with.

I mean, the whole idea of the fundamental deck archetypes stems from WanderingWinder's series of articles.  So why don't we use the definition laid out there in the article about The Combo Deck, instead of your personal bastardized version?

I quote the first paragraph from that article:

Quote
A combo deck is a one that revolves entirely around a particular specific combo of 2+ different cards, generally getting 5-20 copies of the required cards in total. Once the combo is in place, if this has happened quickly enough, the deck should basically just win. This archetype does not deal with cards that work well together – i.e. it’s not just decks that have combos in them, a la Horse Traders-Duke, which is a Slog, or Warehouse-Treasure map, which works together well but isn’t an entire deck, but rather deals with combos that are self-contained, the-entire-deck-and-gameplan-is-this strategies. Typically, these combos are fairly resistant to adding other cards in with them.

A combo deck specifically focuses on a combo of different cards.  A combo is distinct from a combo deck and includes stuff like HT-Duke or Warehouse-TM.
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Awaclus

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2016, 05:35:12 pm »
0

I was going by your initial definition, but OK, fair enough.  Even so, this (newer) definition isn't all that useful for getting better at Dominion.  The whole point of your definition is still that that they don't share characteristics in common with other strategies, including other combo decks.  And using such a broad definition for "combo" is just nonsensical when it allows you to include decks that don't use any special combination of cards at all.

This "newer" definition is the one in the OP of that other thread from last year. Using a special combination of cards is not strategically interesting, using special circumstances is. Usually, special circumstances are a result of a special combination of cards.

False.  Using terminology that the majority of people disagree with is the position that makes people worse at playing Dominion.

Well, I suppose it does make me worse at playing Dominion than those 26 players who are higher than me on the leaderboard, you got me there.

I mean, the whole idea of the fundamental deck archetypes stems from WanderingWinder's series of articles.  So why don't we use the definition laid out there in the article about The Combo Deck, instead of your personal bastardized version?

I quote the first paragraph from that article:

Quote
A combo deck is a one that revolves entirely around a particular specific combo of 2+ different cards, generally getting 5-20 copies of the required cards in total. Once the combo is in place, if this has happened quickly enough, the deck should basically just win. This archetype does not deal with cards that work well together – i.e. it’s not just decks that have combos in them, a la Horse Traders-Duke, which is a Slog, or Warehouse-Treasure map, which works together well but isn’t an entire deck, but rather deals with combos that are self-contained, the-entire-deck-and-gameplan-is-this strategies. Typically, these combos are fairly resistant to adding other cards in with them.

A combo deck specifically focuses on a combo of different cards.  A combo is distinct from a combo deck and includes stuff like HT-Duke or Warehouse-TM.

Because people shouldn't really pay much attention to "cards that work well together", they should focus on "strategies that work well".
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eHalcyon

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2016, 05:53:04 pm »
+2

I was going by your initial definition, but OK, fair enough.  Even so, this (newer) definition isn't all that useful for getting better at Dominion.  The whole point of your definition is still that that they don't share characteristics in common with other strategies, including other combo decks.  And using such a broad definition for "combo" is just nonsensical when it allows you to include decks that don't use any special combination of cards at all.

This "newer" definition is the one in the OP of that other thread from last year. Using a special combination of cards is not strategically interesting, using special circumstances is. Usually, special circumstances are a result of a special combination of cards.

Then you should use a new name instead of "combo" or "combo deck", which already have different definitions in common usage.

But that definition is not in the OP of the other thread.  In that thread, your OP only lists examples of combo decks without giving any sort of definition, and certainly not a definition that includes nothing but the starting 10 cards.

False.  Using terminology that the majority of people disagree with is the position that makes people worse at playing Dominion.

Well, I suppose it does make me worse at playing Dominion than those 26 players who are higher than me on the leaderboard, you got me there.

I thought you were concerned about discussing strategy with others.  Given your skill, that will be you giving strategy advice more often than you receiving it.  Using the common terminology will be helpful there, while using your own language that nobody else uses is not.  But if you're only concerned with yourself, then what does it matter what other people are saying?  Just mull over strategy on your own then.

I was going by your initial definition, but OK, fair enough.  Even so, this (newer) definition isn't all that useful for getting better at Dominion.  The whole point of your definition is still that that they don't share characteristics in common with other strategies, including other combo decks.  And using such a broad definition for "combo" is just nonsensical when it allows you to include decks that don't use any special combination of cards at all.

This "newer" definition is the one in the OP of that other thread from last year. Using a special combination of cards is not strategically interesting, using special circumstances is. Usually, special circumstances are a result of a special combination of cards.

False.  Using terminology that the majority of people disagree with is the position that makes people worse at playing Dominion.

Well, I suppose it does make me worse at playing Dominion than those 26 players who are higher than me on the leaderboard, you got me there.

I mean, the whole idea of the fundamental deck archetypes stems from WanderingWinder's series of articles.  So why don't we use the definition laid out there in the article about The Combo Deck, instead of your personal bastardized version?

I quote the first paragraph from that article:

Quote
A combo deck is a one that revolves entirely around a particular specific combo of 2+ different cards, generally getting 5-20 copies of the required cards in total. Once the combo is in place, if this has happened quickly enough, the deck should basically just win. This archetype does not deal with cards that work well together – i.e. it’s not just decks that have combos in them, a la Horse Traders-Duke, which is a Slog, or Warehouse-Treasure map, which works together well but isn’t an entire deck, but rather deals with combos that are self-contained, the-entire-deck-and-gameplan-is-this strategies. Typically, these combos are fairly resistant to adding other cards in with them.

A combo deck specifically focuses on a combo of different cards.  A combo is distinct from a combo deck and includes stuff like HT-Duke or Warehouse-TM.

Because people shouldn't really pay much attention to "cards that work well together", they should focus on "strategies that work well".

So you can focus on combo decks instead of combos (as they are defined in the article).  It's not a reason to screw with language as commonly understood.

But it's myopic to suggest that there's no room for consideration of combos like Watchtower-Goons or HT-Duke.
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Awaclus

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2016, 06:15:00 pm »
0

I thought you were concerned about discussing strategy with others.  Given your skill, that will be you giving strategy advice more often than you receiving it.  Using the common terminology will be helpful there, while using your own language that nobody else uses is not.  But if you're only concerned with yourself, then what does it matter what other people are saying?  Just mull over strategy on your own then.

It is not the terminology I'm using that makes other people better or worse at Dominion, it is the terminology that they themselves use. The strategy advice that I'm giving here is that people should stop using the kind of terminology that keeps them from being better players.

But it's myopic to suggest that there's no room for consideration of combos like Watchtower-Goons or HT-Duke.

There is no room for consideration of "combos" like Watchtower-Goons or HT-Duke. What you should be considering are an engine and a slog, respectively.
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wachsmuth

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2016, 06:21:14 pm »
+6

I thought you were concerned about discussing strategy with others.  Given your skill, that will be you giving strategy advice more often than you receiving it.  Using the common terminology will be helpful there, while using your own language that nobody else uses is not.  But if you're only concerned with yourself, then what does it matter what other people are saying?  Just mull over strategy on your own then.

It is not the terminology I'm using that makes other people better or worse at Dominion, it is the terminology that they themselves use. The strategy advice that I'm giving here is that people should stop using the kind of terminology that keeps them from being better players.

I know of one thing that certainly makes people worse Dominion players: arguing with Awaclus.
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Awaclus

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2016, 06:30:24 pm »
+1

I thought you were concerned about discussing strategy with others.  Given your skill, that will be you giving strategy advice more often than you receiving it.  Using the common terminology will be helpful there, while using your own language that nobody else uses is not.  But if you're only concerned with yourself, then what does it matter what other people are saying?  Just mull over strategy on your own then.

It is not the terminology I'm using that makes other people better or worse at Dominion, it is the terminology that they themselves use. The strategy advice that I'm giving here is that people should stop using the kind of terminology that keeps them from being better players.

I know of one thing that certainly makes people worse Dominion players: arguing with Awaclus.

True. Instead, you should agree with me.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2016, 06:38:18 pm »
+2

I thought you were concerned about discussing strategy with others.  Given your skill, that will be you giving strategy advice more often than you receiving it.  Using the common terminology will be helpful there, while using your own language that nobody else uses is not.  But if you're only concerned with yourself, then what does it matter what other people are saying?  Just mull over strategy on your own then.

It is not the terminology I'm using that makes other people better or worse at Dominion, it is the terminology that they themselves use. The strategy advice that I'm giving here is that people should stop using the kind of terminology that keeps them from being better players.

I know of one thing that certainly makes people worse Dominion players: arguing with Awaclus.

True. Instead, you should agree with me.

The bigger issue is the damage accrued from repeatedly bashing your head into a wall.
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Awaclus

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2016, 06:51:05 pm »
0

The bigger issue is the damage accrued from repeatedly bashing your head into a wall.

I'm not forcing you to repeatedly bash your head into a wall.
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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2016, 11:00:06 pm »
+7

Hey!  Who remembers six years ago or so, when there was no f.DS, there was just DS.com, and it was basically just theory and rrenaud and a few guest posts?  And the site header said something about "Cards, Counters, and Combos"?  Great times.  And the definition of "combo" used in the site header is basically synonymous with what Awaclus is calling "synergy."

You're trying to change six years of precedent, man, including the original usage of the site's owner and forum admin.  You're not going to win this particular fight.  To 90% or more of people on the forum, "combo" is the same as synergy, and is not the (ill-defined) thing you're talking about.

Time to make like Elsa and Let It Go.
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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2016, 11:17:02 pm »
+1

And this is what the wiki currently says:

Quote
A combo can refer to two things:

1) Two or more cards with a particular synergy
2) A cohesive strategy that relies only on two (sometimes three) cards

The first can act as a supplement or centerpiece to a larger strategy, and is typically the broader category. But when talking about a combo deck, it is the second that is being referred to.
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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2016, 03:46:48 am »
0

There is one thing I'm confused about: the Combo of the Day page does seem to view the Bishop golden deck as a combo deck, not unlike Awaclus. Why is that? It's not a combination of Bishop and some other kingdom card, and it's kind of a stretch to say that it's a combo with Province... getting Provinces is the entire point of the game, most of the time. I would personally view it as a hybrid of Rush and Big Money.
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Awaclus

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2016, 04:03:45 am »
0

There is one thing I'm confused about: the Combo of the Day page does seem to view the Bishop golden deck as a combo deck, not unlike Awaclus. Why is that? It's not a combination of Bishop and some other kingdom card, and it's kind of a stretch to say that it's a combo with Province... getting Provinces is the entire point of the game, most of the time. I would personally view it as a hybrid of Rush and Big Money.

It's clearly not rush and it's clearly not big money and hybrid strategies don't exist.
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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2016, 11:11:56 am »
0

There is one thing I'm confused about: the Combo of the Day page does seem to view the Bishop golden deck as a combo deck, not unlike Awaclus. Why is that? It's not a combination of Bishop and some other kingdom card, and it's kind of a stretch to say that it's a combo with Province... getting Provinces is the entire point of the game, most of the time. I would personally view it as a hybrid of Rush and Big Money.

It's clearly not rush and it's clearly not big money and hybrid strategies don't exist.

So, isn't the standard Bishop Golden deck a combo? It's certainly not an Engine, since you aren't doing lots of different things on your turn. It does actually have some characteristics of Big Money (buy only one or few actions, otherwise money and VP), Rush (once you get the Golden Deck and a lead your opponent is on a timer to get the lead back), Slog (if you trash Golds instead of Provinces), and Combo (no other card can fill the Bishop slot).

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2016, 11:21:37 am »
0

Golden deck is definitely a combo.

Trying to create one with bishop only will lose you the game in non-spectacular fashion. Chapel isn't the only card that can do it but the number of cards which can get you into a golden deck with any sort of speed is extremely limited. So call it a combo involving bishop and a strong and cheap trasher. The different ways to play it once you get there are more of a testament to its strength than defining characteristics.

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2016, 05:39:39 pm »
0

Golden deck is definitely a combo.

Trying to create one with bishop only will lose you the game in non-spectacular fashion. Chapel isn't the only card that can do it but the number of cards which can get you into a golden deck with any sort of speed is extremely limited. So call it a combo involving bishop and a strong and cheap trasher. The different ways to play it once you get there are more of a testament to its strength than defining characteristics.

Hmm, so you could say it's usually a combo of Bishop and Chapel, where another card (Steward, Amulet?) might substitute for Chapel.
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Awaclus

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2016, 06:18:38 pm »
+3

I would say that the standard Bishop golden deck is the best example of a combo deck, because it's the simplest golden deck and the vast majority of combo decks are various kinds of golden decks.

After having said that, I just had a mindblowing realization — there is actually one thing that all viable combo decks known today do have in common, which is also something that they very much share with Magic combo decks and even Hearthstone combo decks (to the extent that pure combo decks can exist in Hearthstone without also having control elements). Rather than building the deck, or advancing their board position as most decks would in Magic and HS, they spend their early game setting up the combo, and once the combo is set up, the combo goes off.

Because this was actually a super simple thing to realize, I thought I'd reread WW's original article to check if it contains the same definition, but it doesn't really contain it (although it kind of hints towards it very slightly). However, Zakharov's even more original article, which I didn't even know (or remember?) existed, and which contains all sorts of questionable advice by today's standards but was most likely extremely good at the time, states more or less the exact same thing in the first sentence of the article. Yay for being over four years late to the party!
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 06:21:03 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2016, 06:44:48 pm »
0

I would say that the standard Bishop golden deck is the best example of a combo deck, because it's the simplest golden deck and the vast majority of combo decks are various kinds of golden decks.

After having said that, I just had a mindblowing realization — there is actually one thing that all viable combo decks known today do have in common, which is also something that they very much share with Magic combo decks and even Hearthstone combo decks (to the extent that pure combo decks can exist in Hearthstone without also having control elements). Rather than building the deck, or advancing their board position as most decks would in Magic and HS, they spend their early game setting up the combo, and once the combo is set up, the combo goes off.

Because this was actually a super simple thing to realize, I thought I'd reread WW's original article to check if it contains the same definition, but it doesn't really contain it (although it kind of hints towards it very slightly). However, Zakharov's even more original article, which I didn't even know (or remember?) existed, and which contains all sorts of questionable advice by today's standards but was most likely extremely good at the time, states more or less the exact same thing in the first sentence of the article. Yay for being over four years late to the party!

It's in the first paragraph of WW's article.

Quote
A combo deck is a one that revolves entirely around a particular specific combo of 2+ different cards, generally getting 5-20 copies of the required cards in total. Once the combo is in place, if this has happened quickly enough, the deck should basically just win.

Even with Zakharov's definition, it's still about setting up a combination of cards.  So are you recanting on your earlier definition that includes a "strategy" of nothing but the starting 10 cards?
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Awaclus

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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #73 on: April 21, 2016, 07:10:50 pm »
0

It's in the first paragraph of WW's article.

Quote
A combo deck is a one that revolves entirely around a particular specific combo of 2+ different cards, generally getting 5-20 copies of the required cards in total. Once the combo is in place, if this has happened quickly enough, the deck should basically just win.
Yep, that's the part where he kind of hints towards it very slightly. It doesn't say anything about the early game consisting of setting the combo up, which is the main part, and that's also probably why he mentions Apothecary/Native Village even though that's an engine, not a combo, as it spends the early game building an engine.

Even with Zakharov's definition, it's still about setting up a combination of cards.  So are you recanting on your earlier definition that includes a "strategy" of nothing but the starting 10 cards?

It's worth noting that while both Zakharov and WW mention a combination of cards, they both also include the traditional Bishop golden deck in their list of combo decks even though that's a single-card combo.

I am recanting my earlier definition in favor of this one (and to be explicit, "this one" = "a strategy that involves spending the early game setting things up, until things are set up") because I like this one more and they are functionally equivalent for practical applications, but not the fact that a strategy that involves buying nothing is presumably a combo. I don't know why Seprix thought that it would be a good idea to go for such a strategy, but let's imagine, for the sake of argument, that it's because he knows the following event will get released in an upcoming expansion co-designed with ErrinF (which is why it's such a well-designed event and all that good stuff):

The Gunpowder Plot
$2 Event
If it's your 11th turn and you haven't bought any cards this game, +100 VP and trash the Province pile from the Supply.

Going for a strategy involving this event is very clearly a combo.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 07:15:07 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Combo: Merchant Guild/Goons
« Reply #74 on: April 21, 2016, 07:16:35 pm »
+1

It's in the first paragraph of WW's article.

Quote
A combo deck is a one that revolves entirely around a particular specific combo of 2+ different cards, generally getting 5-20 copies of the required cards in total. Once the combo is in place, if this has happened quickly enough, the deck should basically just win.
Yep, that's the part where he kind of hints towards it very slightly. It doesn't say anything about the early game consisting of setting the combo up, which is the main part, and that's also probably why he mentions Apothecary/Native Village even though that's an engine, not a combo, as it spends the early game building an engine.

Even with Zakharov's definition, it's still about setting up a combination of cards.  So are you recanting on your earlier definition that includes a "strategy" of nothing but the starting 10 cards?

It's worth noting that while both Zakharov and WW mention a combination of cards, they both also include the traditional Bishop golden deck in their list of combo decks even though that's a single-card combo.

I am recanting my earlier definition in favor of this one because I like this one more and they are functionally equivalent for practical applications, but not the fact that a strategy that involves buying nothing is presumably a combo. I don't know why Seprix thought that it would be a good idea to go for such a strategy, but let's imagine, for the sake of argument, that it's because he knows the following event will get released in an upcoming expansion co-designed with ErrinF (which is why it's such a well-designed event and all that good stuff):

The Gunpowder Plot
$2 Event
If it's your 11th turn and you haven't bought any cards this game, +100 VP and trash the Province pile from the Supply.

Going for a strategy involving this event is very clearly a combo.

Of course it's a combo when that event is available. It's not a combo when the event is not available. Just like getting a bunch of Hermits isn't a combo when there's no Market Square (or Bridge, Goons, etc.) to go with it.
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