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schadd

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LSD: payload
« on: April 16, 2016, 11:53:03 pm »
+11

iterating on mr. clus's idea of lsd, or lengthy strategy discussion, i am creating a thread for payload.

the wiki has this to say:
Quote
An engine needs three parts: +Action (normally through villages), draw, and payload. The +Action is necessary to play everything, and the draw is necessary to get everything you want to play into your hand. The payload is the reason you built the engine in the first place; a deck that only has +Action and draw will usually be outpaced by big money. The most common payload is +Buy; simply adding the ability to buy more than one card per turn can make a Village/Smithy deck viable. Equally useful are terminal silvers (and other terminal +Coin.png cards), which give you the buying power to make use of extra buys, and trashers, which trim your deck down and make your engine run more smoothly. Other payload categories are gainers, cost-reducers, and Attacks; Treasures can also function as payload.
Some villages and draw cards have additional abilities that can function as payload; a Fishing Village/Wharf deck does not need any other cards to win. Outside of these situations, most payload cards are stop cards.[/font]

this is a definition that makes enough sense. in short, there are things that are good for action phases, payload isn't those.

dr. winder has said on his nether realm:
Quote
If you can get to the point where you are drawing every card in your deck every turn, the way you look at your economic output on a turn changes completely. Now, you don’t need to look at average coin per card; you can actually just add up the sum total of all economic production in your whole deck.
...
Now, there are reasons why it’s not quite so rosy for engines as the above might make it sound. As it relates to the discussion above, the most notable thing is that if you are adding payload cards which don’t help you to draw (like Gold), you will have to get more pieces that do so you can continue to draw your deck every turn (terminal payload also requires getting more villages). This diminishes the ability to really add as much economy as you might otherwise be able to. On the other hand, being able to add to your per-turn payload so quickly self-synergizes, exploding in on itself in a chain reaction – getting that extra $3 now means I have more that I’m able to spend next turn to keep increasing my economic capabilities without falling behind on draw. This ramping effect virtually always more than compensates for the need to get extra pieces to keep drawing, at least if you have the capability to get extra buys – otherwise making $30 on a turn doesn’t do much for me. On top of that, there are ancillary benefits – if there are cards which are much better in combination or in multiples, you get to reliably do that, and you get to hit them with your attacks every turn. Engines also give you better control of ending the game just when you want.

payload is a weird thing. people use the term to mean different things, and discussions about what it means specifically are much less frequent and developed than those that attempt to evaluate it. intuitively, it is mathematically a quicker way to get provinces when you build first; this is one of several invariable truths this game offers. another thing that we are all familar with is, the amount of time and cards you use to do this varies with each game. perhaps within the concept of payload is where evaluating the power level of cards matters most and individual power level (the qvisty one) is trumped by the comboey one (ironmonger, bridge and hunting party are good but don't really like each other, whereas horse traders and duke do).

the question of when do i do payload is thus so weird, in that it depends on what the good ones are. this can be demonstrated by the fact that attacks fit into the definition of payload that we have. ambassador is payload; you will often buy a curse to keep playing them after you're drawing your deck. however, the other thing that it does happens to be good at the beginning as well.

so, although it is sort of a thing that we do where we try to be able to draw a lot of cards and play a lot of actions before you do payload, there is some quality a card can have that tosses that to the wind; sometimes it is clear and tangible why you would do that, such as familiar: i will temporarily skip ironworks to gain advisors (which is not payload until you use it to gain silk roads?) in favor of potion to gain familiars because curses are not only just really good to distribute but also will eventually not be able to be distributed, so sooner is good, but there will eventually be a reason to stop.

however, sometimes it isn't clear why exactly you will do payload before you can draw your deck: it is intuitive, for my village/wharf engine, to pick up a horn of plenty after the second-thirdish wharf because ???. i suppose that is the point where i will start being able to draw it with 4 other differently named cards reliably (copper, village, silver, wharf, maybe one of the other 7 kingdom cards) but why is that the amount of reliableness that makes me decide to do horn of plenty, not only that but also it seems to be correct in practice?

and maybe that's what i like about cornucopia, is that there is a whole other layer of arbitrarity to the payload question, since card variety is not a property of cards anymore.

consider this kingdom:


Code: [Select]
Lookout, Village, Mining Village, Remodel, Counterfeit, Margrave, Merchant Guild, Soothsayer, Wharf, Witch
this one is trying to, for one, further illustrate how weird ordering is with payload, and also, be a thing that is straightforward to talk about and then use in a broad sense to understand payload.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2016, 12:08:05 am »
0

With the above kingdom, I know I'm going to want at least one each of Margrave, Soothsayer, Witch and Counterfeit.  The question is - in what order should I get them?
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2016, 02:25:10 am »
+4

With the above kingdom, I know I'm going to want at least one each of Margrave, Soothsayer, Witch and Counterfeit.  The question is - in what order should I get them?

Getting good at this question is what makes you a good Dominion player. As you might imagine, it's very difficult to get this right.

I think my definition of payload is a bit different from the quoted content. For me, payload is the set of cards you would like to play as much as possible. What that means is going to shift over the course of the game. For example, in the linked kingdom, first I want to play Counterfeit and Witch every turn. Later, I want to play Margrave and Golds every turn. (For the record, I don't think you want Soothsayer at all here. With another Curser, the other $5s are all much better because they actually draw you cards.)

Well, what about Village and Wharf? You want to play your Villages every turn, and your Wharves every turn, so they're payload, right? Well, there's a distinction. The +Actions and +Cards in your deck are the necessary pieces to draw everything else, but you don't live to play all your Villages and Smithies, you live to play all the other stuff.

Still, once again, there's more complications. Witch and Margrave do double duty as attacks and draw. Counterfeit does double duty as trashing and economy. If you draw Witch and Wharf with 1 action left, Wharf might be better because the duration is so strong, making Wharf a kind of payload in itself. Trying to nail it down finer than this is a distraction from the simpler point: there are cards you want to play as much as possible, and your goal is to make that happen.

The concept of "payload" is a good guiding principle to motivate why you want to build engines, but I'm finding my thinking has shifted more towards deciding what I want my deck to be able to do, and figuring out a good plan to getting there. I don't think "I will build to a payload of lots of Gold", I think "I want to draw lots of treasures", or "I want to play Witch a bunch", or "I want to draw Forge + 2 Fortresses every turn", and then goes all the subconscious intuition of trashing is good, cycling is good, junking is good, etc.

It's quite difficult to explain and IDK if I conveyed it properly. What I wanted to get across is that not every engine game is "draw your deck, play the magical payload cards". Rather, it's closer to aiming towards a ton of subgoals that all fit into one cohesive plan. (Or not so cohesive plan, if you're like me and bumble your way to good decks.)

Edit: for the record, I would probably open Lookout/Silver, get Wharf first, then Witch/Counterfeit, then Counterfeit/Witch, then Margrave. The ordering depends on how many Villages I pick up when I don't hit $5, and I'm uneasy leaving Margrave to that late. That plan is almost certainly not optimal, but it is at least reasonable.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 02:29:18 am by Titandrake »
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2016, 03:41:22 am »
+8

If you're talking about money as payload, it's pronounced ell ess dee but written out as £sd. It goes back to the Romans, standing for librae, solidi, and denarii; to the English of course it represented pounds, shillings, and pence.

The denarius is the direct ancestor of US pennies. However in Roman times it was a silver coin. The coin gradually got less silver over time, which is probably why the pros don't like Silver.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2016, 03:52:20 am »
+1

With the above kingdom, I know I'm going to want at least one each of Margrave, Soothsayer, Witch and Counterfeit.  The question is - in what order should I get them?

I'm pretty sure you don't want a single Soothsayer unless your opponent has somehow gotten 9 of them and you buy the last one for threepiling. Witch is better in every aspect — it doesn't let your opponent draw a card, it lets you draw two cards, and it doesn't give you a Gold.

The payload on this kingdom is Merchant Guild. You certainly need to open Silver/Lookout and get a Witch as soon as possible. Going for Margrave depends on what your opponent is doing.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2016, 08:24:10 am »
0

LSD is pretty light payload - it doesn't require any support to work, it is effective over the length of several games, and it takes up very little space (less than, like, 1/20th of the space of a single Dominion card). But if it's not banned in tournaments, it's sure quite difficult to win them while using it. Your mind is just all over the place man.

----

With the above kingdom, I know I'm going to want at least one each of Margrave, Soothsayer, Witch and Counterfeit.  The question is - in what order should I get them?

I don't think this is that unclear at all - Witch, Counterfeit, Soothsayer, Margrave. The discard attack you either want first or last - first would be to stop your opponent from reaching 5, last would be after Curses are gone and decks have started to recover from them via Lookout or whatever. You want Witch first because you want to start distributing Curses before your opponent starts distributing Curses and Witch's cycling is more important than early Soothsayer golds (and you don't want to give early 6 card hands to opponents trying to spike 5). Counterfeit is next as it will thin your deck a little and start off your cycling. Once you have a Counterfeit (maybe 2? I don't know man) you can add Soothsayer - the extra draw isn't such a big deal once the Curse flood has started, the Golds are great payload with Counterfeit eventually, and you can probably give out a few more curses with it. Margrave I would consider skipping entirely, to be honest, since I want Wharf, but I would probably get it long after the Curses are gone.

I don't like the Merchant Guild payload here just because it's kind of an uphill battle to get the engine going in the first place, but this is probably why I'm bad at Dominion.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2016, 08:49:01 am »
0

I don't like the Merchant Guild payload here just because it's kind of an uphill battle to get the engine going in the first place, but this is probably why I'm bad at Dominion.

It's not an uphill battle to get an engine going here. Lookout is an excellent trasher, Village is an excellent splitter, Wharf is the best +cards, and there are also more +cards and more splitters in case you need them. This is one of the strongest engine boards I've seen in a long while.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2016, 09:01:10 am »
0

I'm going back and forth on the necessity of Lookout on this board.  On the one hand, Remodel and Counterfeit should be all the trashing you really need, but Lookout is better than Remodel at handling Curses.  And I do think you want at least on Soothsayer - simulations I did a while back suggested that Witch/Soothsayer consistently beat Witch/Witch and Soothsayer/Soothsayer.  And there's enough draw (and Villages, and +Buy) on this board that the additional Golds shouldn't hurt you too much.

Chris is me: I think you're right about the order there.  I think the question then becomes, do you bother getting Mining Villages before the Village pile is empty?
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2016, 09:09:56 am »
+1

This kingdom is probably too complicated to be a payload example. There would be a good discussion of tactics but someone trying to learn from it might end up confused by the variety of options.

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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2016, 09:10:54 am »
0

This kingdom is probably too complicated to be a payload example. There would be a good discussion of tactics but someone trying to learn from it might end up confused by the variety of options.

I think that was the point - that payload is more complicated than it's sometimes made out to be.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2016, 10:26:50 am »
0

And I do think you want at least on Soothsayer - simulations I did a while back suggested that Witch/Soothsayer consistently beat Witch/Witch and Soothsayer/Soothsayer.  And there's enough draw (and Villages, and +Buy) on this board that the additional Golds shouldn't hurt you too much.

This isn't a big money game, simulations aren't very relevant here. There might be enough draw on the board, but the problem is that you need to have enough draw in your deck and it takes a lot of valuable time to acquire it.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2016, 11:22:46 pm »
+2

I do not agree with you on every example you give for Payload, specifically the Ambassador-Curse example. That is not a payload. That is simply an attack, specifically used to slow your opponent so he cannot get to his payload as effectively. If you have the Actions to use hindrance attacks, great. If not, you would probably end up skipping the use of this weapon for your actual payload.

I do not think Payload and good plays are synonyms because of this example, though they are often used interchangeably. A wouldn't call a three-pile win by Ambassadoring Curses to opponents a Payload, for example. It's not a conventional move, and probably not even planned.

The difference between good plays and Payloads thus seems to be VP gaining. You know that Butcher is great for milling Provinces and getting them, so you get it as a Payload. Maybe there's another game where Butcher isn't great, but suddenly, you decide you need one for non-VP reasons. It's not a payload if it's not getting you points. I would define payload as "Potential for point gaining".

My thoughts on the board: Soothsayer is cancer, probably the last thing you want to get. Golds clog you and draws an opponent a free card while curses are flying around, yuck. Your primary goal is to get nice and thin, so first purchase is going to be Witch/Margrave, (probably Margrave for economy), followed by Counterfeit, followed by Margrave/Witch (whichever you didn't get first). A Remodel isn't really needed until much later, though it can be nice for ditching Curses for coin to be trashed to Counterfeit. I don't like Lookout much, but you probably want to open Lookout/Silver anyways. It sounds crazy, but you might not want to get to Wharf until a bit later on.

The payload would ideally be Soothsayer gained Golds (if you even want this) with Remodel to province with Milling while the opponent chokes on Purple. However, this could change on the drop of a hat. A three-pile option could easily show up with Wharf/Village/Curse or something else.

edit: I think I like the 3-pile plan a lot more in hindsight, and I'm not as sure about Margrave first since Wharf is actually a great card as well for economy. I'm positive Counterfeit is the second $5, but the first $5 is probably either Witch or Wharf for me now, and since Lookout is on the board, maybe Wharf is a little better now that I'm thinking hard about this.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 11:47:05 pm by Seprix »
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2016, 03:32:06 am »
0

The difference between good plays and Payloads thus seems to be VP gaining. You know that Butcher is great for milling Provinces and getting them, so you get it as a Payload. Maybe there's another game where Butcher isn't great, but suddenly, you decide you need one for non-VP reasons. It's not a payload if it's not getting you points. I would define payload as "Potential for point gaining".

This. Payload is how you make up for the fact that you have been buying stuff instead of points, so it is either in the form of produce high amounts of points in a short amount of time, which is I guess the more classical idea of an engine, or in the form of be able to no doubt buy a high-value victory card each turn, in which case the engine is more about speed versus the money strategy.

In the latter case, the engine's payload is economy and is usually the result of strong trashing and/or a strong non-junking attack while lacking +buy.

The former case is more what the descriptions above are about, and is more variable. Obviously there is the classic economy and +buy, but stuff like remodel variants or goons can make an appearance. In either case, this is the one where the three pile endings tend to happen quite a bit more often because there is the potential for all the gaining, and this also tends to require a much larger engine, the creation of which depletes piles to begin with.

The engine on this board is of the second type, though I think that the best money strategy which looks something like witch/soothsayer/1-2 counterfeit/2-3 wharves here is being somewhat underrated. With good luck, it can get a vp lockout by around turn 17, and based on my games against bots (yeah, okay) on average around turn 20 if the margrave is not coming in hard early with the curse split usually 5-5 or 6-4 in its favor. Playing against my engines (which are not the greatest), it was probably about 50-50, with most of those games being able to tell what the result was going to be by about turn 10.
Having said that, an engine strategy that does not buy soothsayer will lose to it even if it gets a margrave in every turn by about turn 12, which is unusual with a lookout/silver opening. There is just not going to be enough power to make up 4-5 provinces once it gets going. Soothsayer/remodel is the way in which you make up this point deficit, sometimes even to the point that you want two of each. Then again, this board is more about ordering of 5-costs.

Assuming a lookout/silver opening, with villages being bought on 3 and 4 unless one gets far behind thinning, in which case second lookout.
Regardless of what the opponent is doing, the first one is witch unless it is turn 8, in which case see below and you are probably already screwed.
Against money, the margrave pretty much needs to be bought by turn 10 if you don't want a game coming down to the wire - late margraves tend to help the money strategy more than hurt it, so getting them up early is key. If lucky, it is your third 5 buy after counterfeit, if not, it is your second. Against an opposing engine, I am fairly sure wharf over margrave unless you are hitting 5 for the third time on turn 6ish (again, early hurts more), and even then maybe not. Once again, the second five is counterfeit.
First soothsayer once the deck is getting about 4/5 drawn. At this point it is usually not drawing the opponent a card
First remodel once the deck is getting all the way drawn. This is actually your only way to target-trash stuff and turns lookout(s) into either wharf or second soothsayer.
If needed to catch up on points, second remodel.

At least that is how I would go about the engine. Possibly slow against in a mirror, but in that case nowhere near as many points have to be scored, so the second soothsayer or remodel is probably unnecessary. A lookout/silver opening might be wrong since it can have issues hitting 5, and I think these issues are where a lot of the strength of the money lies.

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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2016, 04:10:39 am »
+1

Why is everyone so obsessed with Counterfeit? You can already trash everything with Lookout, which is cheaper and doesn't compete with a lot of other cards that you want in the super early game.

In the latter case, the engine's payload is economy

Economy isn't payload. Economy is what you have in order to gain engine pieces. Payload is what you have in order to actually win.


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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2016, 07:18:20 am »
+1

Why is everyone so obsessed with Counterfeit? You can already trash everything with Lookout, which is cheaper and doesn't compete with a lot of other cards that you want in the super early game.

Counterfeit helps you hit $5 repeatedly, while Lookout makes hitting $5 less likely. Counterfeit also gives you something to do with all of those Soothsayer Golds later on.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2016, 08:41:43 am »
0

Counterfeit helps you hit $5 repeatedly, while Lookout makes hitting $5 less likely. Counterfeit also gives you something to do with all of those Soothsayer Golds later on.

It's not super great to buy a $5 just to help you hit $5 repeatedly. You don't have any Soothsayer Golds later on because you never bought a Soothsayer.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2016, 09:40:12 am »
+1

Counterfeit is good here since it doesn't need a village, compared to lookout it is a reliable trasher that also provides economy, remodel can turn curses to copper, soothsayer can provide gold, and a trim deck can buy coppers for merchant guilds then trash them out later for coins. Counterfeit has a purpose in all decks. The problem of course is that counterfeit is the same cost as witch and wharf and it is hard to time in the counterfeit buy.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2016, 09:45:12 am »
+5

Why is everyone so obsessed with Counterfeit? You can already trash everything with Lookout, which is cheaper and doesn't compete with a lot of other cards that you want in the super early game.

Lookout is dumb and I hate it.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2016, 10:22:32 am »
0

Why is everyone so obsessed with Counterfeit? You can already trash everything with Lookout, which is cheaper and doesn't compete with a lot of other cards that you want in the super early game.

Lookout is dumb and I hate it.

Just because you personally don't like a powerful card, doesn't mean it's not the correct play to buy it.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2016, 10:54:01 am »
0

Why is everyone so obsessed with Counterfeit? You can already trash everything with Lookout, which is cheaper and doesn't compete with a lot of other cards that you want in the super early game.

Lookout is dumb and I hate it.

Just because you personally don't like a powerful card, doesn't mean it's not the correct play to buy it.

Lookout isn't a powerful card by any means. It's better than Develop, but it's not great.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2016, 12:15:43 pm »
0

Why is everyone so obsessed with Counterfeit? You can already trash everything with Lookout, which is cheaper and doesn't compete with a lot of other cards that you want in the super early game.

Lookout is dumb and I hate it.

Just because you personally don't like a powerful card, doesn't mean it's not the correct play to buy it.

Lookout isn't a powerful card by any means. It's better than Develop, but it's not great.

Develop isn't a bad card by any means. It's worse than Remake, but it's not awful.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2016, 12:17:08 pm »
0

Why is everyone so obsessed with Counterfeit? You can already trash everything with Lookout, which is cheaper and doesn't compete with a lot of other cards that you want in the super early game.

Lookout is dumb and I hate it.

Just because you personally don't like a powerful card, doesn't mean it's not the correct play to buy it.

Lookout isn't a powerful card by any means. It's better than Develop, but it's not great.

Lookout is a very powerful card and it's also great. It's not better than Ambassador, but it's one of the strongest $3 trashers for sure.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2016, 12:55:18 pm »
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2016, 01:14:12 pm »
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Lookout is a very powerful card and it's also great. It's not better than Ambassador, but it's one of the strongest $3 trashers for sure.

I'm not too sure about this.  Steward, Masquerade, Amulet, and Ambassador are certainly better, and Forager, Hermit, and Doctor are about the same power level as Lookout, in my opinion.
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Re: LSD: payload
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2016, 01:24:19 pm »
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Lookout is a very powerful card and it's also great. It's not better than Ambassador, but it's one of the strongest $3 trashers for sure.

I'm not too sure about this.  Steward, Masquerade, Amulet, and Ambassador are certainly better, and Forager, Hermit, and Doctor are about the same power level as Lookout, in my opinion.

Masquerade and Ambassador are certainly better. I would say that Steward, Forager and Amulet are about the same power level as Lookout, and Hermit and Doctor are worse than that.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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