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Author Topic: To veto or not to veto  (Read 12528 times)

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vulturesrow

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To veto or not to veto
« on: January 22, 2012, 10:44:47 pm »
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Seems like no veto is the "purest" way to play in that it forces people to just deal with the kingdom as dealt..Thoughts?
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jsh357

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2012, 11:30:29 pm »
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I'm not a fan myself... I prefer playing with purely random sets.  I put up with it, though, cause I know some people don't like playing with certain cards or combinations of them.  My wife, in particular.  :P
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Forge!!!

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2012, 11:51:28 pm »
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I like it, because there are certain cards I just get sick of sometimes (Ill gotten gains, Torturer/Village combos, etc.)
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Fuu

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2012, 11:57:35 pm »
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I like veto mode. While there are certain cards I might really not want to play with, there might be multiple cards I dislike in a veto mode set, and I can't get rid of them all. In that sense it forces you to prioritise, either removing the cards you dislike the most or those which you think the opponent could leverage more effectively than you. I like that decision aspect.

Veto mode also means rejecting fewer auto-matches, the trade off being you'll play more sets that aren't completely to your liking ...
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2012, 12:14:43 am »
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I'm not much of a veto fan, but I play veto games all the time because the person on auto-match suggests it. Personally, I like dealing the kingdom as is. But, I am also starting to appreciate the strategy that can go into vetoing a card. So, I think I kind of like both modes. They both have their advantages and disadvantages.
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ehunt

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2012, 12:24:16 am »
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I like isotropic's veto mode; it adds a strategic component to the game, goes against first player advantage somewhat, and, most importantly, the veto power is relatively small.

In real life we often flip over randomizer after randomizer, reject each quickly, then wind up with terrible kingdoms. This I don't like.
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Geronimoo

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2012, 03:32:40 am »
+2

In my opinion it adds little to this game. Some say there's an extra layer of strategy with veto, but really it's nothing much:

-when going first, veto Smugglers, if it's not there veto random (hey, you have first player advantage so any nasty card is better for you than for your opponent)
-when going second, veto the Cursers first, then Tournament, then other attacks, then engine enablers (you actually want the game to be as close to Boring Big Money as possible where first player advantage is smallest)

Vetoing cards you don't like or can't play well is NOT additional strategy (although I'm always glad to veto away an Ambassador).
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Davio

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2012, 04:13:50 am »
+1

I tend to veto swingy cards most of the time, like Tournament, Swindler or Saboteur; even though Saboteur is a often trap.
If there are no such swingy cards, I veto cards that turn the game into a brainless mirror-match like IGG and JoaT.
Last, but not least, I sometimes veto cards that take forever to play, like Scrying Pool.
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brokoli

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2012, 04:53:47 am »
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I'm not a fan of Veto mode, because I like all cards in Dominion (except alchemist), the choice is too difficult.
And often people veto the same cards : possession, witch, IGG, ...

But, I agree with Beyond Awesome : They both have their advantages and disadvantages.
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Qvist

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2012, 05:13:19 am »
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I'm also no fan of veto mode, but I have no problems with it.
I totally agree with Davio. I veto swingy cards most of the times, then boring cards and then cards I just can't stand.

Piemaster

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2012, 05:41:05 am »
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I don't like veto mode because it seems to me that you end up vetoing the cards that you're not very good at playing with, which means you never play with them and so never get better at playing with them and the vicious circle continues.  But not vetoing you are forced to man up and confront your nemesis, often becoming a better player as a result.
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mrdirt73

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2012, 09:31:56 am »
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I could take it or leave it.  It's not a deal breaker when it comes to accepting an auto-match.  That being said, I generally veto cards that I feel like I've played with in the previous handful of games.
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chogg

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2012, 09:33:04 am »
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I used to play with veto mode sometimes, but I've soured against it and never use it anymore.

For one thing, it often takes forever for someone to pick their card, time I'd rather spend playing.  We used to play with veto mode with our friends to "speed up" the game.  Eventually I realized we were really slowing it down -- and if there are more "slow" cards than players, we're stuck anyway!

I also changed my philosophy.  Previously, I'd look to veto cards like Possession, Black Market, IGG, JoaT... really, anything I didn't like.  Then I realized hey, the other guy's in the same boat I am.  For whatever board we get, there is some way to win.  The fun of Dominion is to figure out that strategy for the 10 random cards you get.  Now I enjoy the challenge, win or lose.

(Okay, I do decline auto-match games with King's Court and Masquerade.  But everything else is auto-accept.)
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Fabian

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2012, 10:45:52 am »
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Geronimoo, even if I accept your statement that vetoing cards you can't play well is not strategy (which I don't), there's still just no way vetoing at random is anywhere close to the correct/only strategy (non-strategy) for a player going first, neither from a theoretical nor a practical standpoint. Do you actually think so?

As for me, I prefer playing without veto mode, as it imo is a better skill-tester of what I consider to be "true" Dominion, and the way I would prefer to play. If it was up to me in a perfect world, putting yourself in the auto-match pool would mean you auto-accept whenever someones's matched against you, so you can't decline based on either kingdom cards or opponent. Just an opinion of course. I still play a fair amount of veto mode as I have veto mode set to "don't care", since I don't want to exclude opponents who play exclusively veto mode. It's by no means a dealbreaker to me, but imo it would be kinda nice if there were "prefer veto mode yes/no" buttons, so two people who both have it set to don't care still can play exclusively non-veto (or veto).

As for strategy, I tend to veto cards that promote a strategy different from what I'm planning on, when I'm unsure whether or not it's stronger. That way, I will either play a mirror match or the "third" best strategy (with my chosen one being the first, and the card I vetoed away being the second (or possibly first), ideally). Either way, I feel like I'm favored. Against strongish opponents (so pretty much everyone I play), I also tend to veto certain cards I feel like I don't play as well as the average strong player. Against weakish opponents, I tend to veto certain cards I feel create more variance than most other cards.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 10:48:26 am by Fabian »
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Geronimoo

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2012, 11:03:03 am »
+1

Geronimoo, even if I accept your statement that vetoing cards you can't play well is not strategy (which I don't), there's still just no way vetoing at random is anywhere close to the correct/only strategy (non-strategy) for a player going first, neither from a theoretical nor a practical standpoint. Do you actually think so?

Oops, I forgot to mention vetoing random is just what I do when being first player. It certainly isn't optimal. It's best to NOT veto Familiar, Tournament,etc when going first.

I just find it fun vetoing random because I don't have to waste brain power on that decision and it might mess with my opponent's head when I randomly veto something mediocre: "OMG, this lvl45 just vetoed Counting House, wow, what does that mean!???..."
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Marcus316

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2012, 11:46:34 am »
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I am also one of those who vetoes random cards. This is not strategy, but my way of getting better with whatever cards are dealt.
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Richard

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2012, 11:57:35 am »
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Geronimoo, even if I accept your statement that vetoing cards you can't play well is not strategy (which I don't), there's still just no way vetoing at random is anywhere close to the correct/only strategy (non-strategy) for a player going first, neither from a theoretical nor a practical standpoint. Do you actually think so?

I just find it fun vetoing random because I don't have to waste brain power on that decision and it might mess with my opponent's head when I randomly veto something mediocre: "OMG, this lvl45 just vetoed Counting House, wow, what does that mean!???..."

That you don't like counting house? =p

Whenever a stronger opponent vetoes a mediocre card, I do take an extra second or two to re-evaluate, but generally I just assume my opponent likes the board as is and chose to remove an "irrelevant" card.
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buggibum

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2012, 12:22:26 pm »
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If you play alot of games, you might get bored of cards who are very dominant on the board for instance chapel or witch. Sometimes you like to play another game without chapel or witch again. It just offers more variety and diverse games for players who play alot of games and get bored.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2012, 03:40:51 pm »
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Personally, I feel that by vetoing the most dominant card you in effect usually broaden the strategic horizon of the game.

Also, even if you were lvl 65 not being able to match your opponents Mint/Fool's Gold opener usually spells disaster.
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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2012, 05:52:33 pm »
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For my friends and I, veto mode on isotropic equates primarily to "avoid playing with alchemy cards" mode. The next stage of it is one of removing a certain card that someone always hammers, especially swingy attacks. Sometimes it's just a case of not being in the mood for certain cards - either they've come up too much already, or you're a bit sick of cursing games in this session or whatever.
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sitnaltax

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2012, 12:38:14 am »
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I'm a big fan of veto mode. Usually I'll veto a power card, especially if it's something that I've played with recently; who wants to play two Tournament games in a row? I also tend to ixnay Scrying Pool and Possession, which lead to painful games with lots of browsing BGG while my opponent takes his turn. I've even started playing veto mode in tabletop. Some folks hate attacks or cursing and this lets us add some control without just picking out 10 boring cards.
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randomdragoon

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2012, 01:32:06 am »
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I play veto mode when playing in real life, mostly because my playgroup likes constructing engines more than anything else. The result is that instead of hoping that a village-like card appears in 10 randomizers, we get 13 or 14 chances instead (no one ever vetos the village)
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Robz888

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Re: To veto or not to veto
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2012, 02:33:23 am »
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I usually play in Veto Mode, so I pretty much have a step-by-step mental check process for this now:

Check 1: Is my least favorite card, Black Market, available? If yes, VETO
Check 2: What about cards I generally don't enjoy, such as King's Court, Grand Market, and Bank? If yes, VETO
Check 3: Are there irritatingly dominant or swingy attacks, such as Familiar, Goons, Jester, Margrave, Swindler, and Minion? If yes, VETO
Check 4: Or other cards that dominate, or exacerbate a non-identical starting hands advantage, such as Fool's Gold? If yes, VETO
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