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Author Topic: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes  (Read 37841 times)

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Kirian

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2012, 12:33:40 pm »
0

Let's just hope the app would be great and that Iso going down doesn't mean DominionStrategy going down :)

I'm sure DS won't go down, but CR will be less useful for quite a while.  I'm hopeful but not optimistic that the app will have some sort of logging system.  The fact that Jay's earlier note suggested it will be browser-playable suggests that it'll at least be possible.
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Ozle

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2012, 12:35:25 pm »
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Its bound to have a knock on effect on DS, but not a terminal one I reckon. Especially as all the simulator people are to test out new theorys and such,
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theory

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2012, 12:53:54 pm »
+1

CouncilRoom will be hugely affected, naturally, by the kind of logs outputted.  It could be better than Isotropic, and it could also be worse.

DS is also vulnerable to whether it outputs good logs, since it's hard to facilitate discussion without examples.  And if you assume that each expansion will cost additional, then the random-from-all-expansions implicit assumption that we have taken for granted may no longer be true.

f.DS depends on how much of the community migrates over.  Clearly a lot will go away once it's no longer free, but there should also be a significant influx of new players that can at last play an official version (and on their phones).
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chogg

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2012, 01:02:32 pm »
0

CouncilRoom will be hugely affected, naturally, by the kind of logs outputted.  It could be better than Isotropic, and it could also be worse.

I love isotropic, but my biggest gripe is that the logs don't let you fully reconstruct the game.  (You play a Smithy and draw three cards -- which three cards?!)

It clearly isn't an issue of preventing the opponent from seeing private information: already, the game logs show e.g. what each player draws at the end of their turn.

Full game reconstruction is a minimum standard I think we should ask of the logs.  I've been waiting for the official app and assuming it will offer this feature.  If not, I think we should keep bugging them until they put it in.  :)
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DrHades

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2012, 01:11:21 pm »
0

...And if you assume that each expansion will cost additional...

You really think that will be the case? I was assuming that it would be "base for free" and then everything for one price. How would the playing system work? You would create tables for specific expansions and only players who paid for them could play? It's possible though...

If so, I would definitely pay for Intrique, Seaside, Prosperity and Cornucopia, maybe Base, but I would gladly pass on Hinterlands, Alchemy and Promos :)
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Kirian

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2012, 01:52:19 pm »
0

And if you assume that each expansion will cost additional...

I have to agree with DrHades, I don't think this would be possible; matchmaking would be a hell.  It would, however, give me one more reason not to purchase.

Quote
Clearly a lot will go away once it's no longer free...

I don't know about that.  I suspect the people who frequent the forum are the true die-hards who are likely willing to pay at a reasonable price point... barring, of course, non-financial reasons to pass on it.

But without logs, f.DS will have troubles as well, as there would be no examples to look at.

I think the absence of logs would be a purchase-killer for me, as would the absence of a rating system.
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DrHades

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2012, 02:27:36 pm »
0

And if you assume that each expansion will cost additional...

I have to agree with DrHades, I don't think this would be possible; matchmaking would be a hell.  It would, however, give me one more reason not to purchase.

Quote
Clearly a lot will go away once it's no longer free...

I don't know about that.  I suspect the people who frequent the forum are the true die-hards who are likely willing to pay at a reasonable price point... barring, of course, non-financial reasons to pass on it.

But without logs, f.DS will have troubles as well, as there would be no examples to look at.

I think the absence of logs would be a purchase-killer for me, as would the absence of a rating system.

Absence of log would be pain in the ass  :( Absence of a rating system is just nonsence, there definitely will be a rating system.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2012, 02:34:05 pm »
0

Absence of log would be pain in the ass  :( Absence of a rating system is just nonsence, there definitely will be a rating system.

The Ascension app on ipad is an AMAZING implementation of a less than amazing game, and it offers no logs, no rankings, the best you can get is your personal record.  Short of the developers coming out of the woodwork and answering questions, I think its unlikely to assume that any of the features that we'd like will be implemented.

I'm optimistic that it will at least be better than the BSW implementation, which was still good enough for me to play 1000+ games, but I have to say that like the others here, without a leaderboard for competition, and game logs for analysis, I may lose interest.
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DrHades

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2012, 02:41:27 pm »
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Absence of log would be pain in the ass  :( Absence of a rating system is just nonsence, there definitely will be a rating system.

The Ascension app on ipad is an AMAZING implementation of a less than amazing game, and it offers no logs, no rankings, the best you can get is your personal record.  Short of the developers coming out of the woodwork and answering questions, I think its unlikely to assume that any of the features that we'd like will be implemented.

I'm optimistic that it will at least be better than the BSW implementation, which was still good enough for me to play 1000+ games, but I have to say that like the others here, without a leaderboard for competition, and game logs for analysis, I may lose interest.

Well the AI would be just very simple to learn the basics, so I assume that the app would be primary for multiplayer...and what the hell is more important for multiplayer than rating?
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ackack

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2012, 02:52:44 pm »
0

Well the AI would be just very simple to learn the basics, so I assume that the app would be primary for multiplayer...and what the hell is more important for multiplayer than rating?

I would say being able to actually play the game against other people is more important. While I tend to agree that a lot of people here are driven by the urge to sit atop a leaderboard, I could also imagine that there's a potentially large casual fanbase that doesn't care at all that would be perfectly happy to just play the game.

We'll see how the final product turns out. I'm fairly pessimistic about this sort of thing but who knows, maybe it will still be appealing to the hardcore fans. The BGG thread mentioning that user-created AIs may be possible is promising.
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rrenaud

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2012, 03:06:28 pm »
+4

logs + elbow grease -> leaderboard.

even if it's unofficial.
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theory

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2012, 03:12:45 pm »
0

Yeah, rrenaud made a really nice leaderboard for RFTG back in its heyday.
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Kirian

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2012, 04:38:23 pm »
0

Well the AI would be just very simple to learn the basics, so I assume that the app would be primary for multiplayer...and what the hell is more important for multiplayer than rating?

I would say being able to actually play the game against other people is more important. While I tend to agree that a lot of people here are driven by the urge to sit atop a leaderboard, I could also imagine that there's a potentially large casual fanbase that doesn't care at all that would be perfectly happy to just play the game.

Sure, but I can happily play the game against people near me with physical cards, and spend my online time playing something else.

I have no interest in topping the charts (I doubt I ever will crack level 35 or its equivalent in the new system), but there's something inherently interesting about being able to see who's likely to be better or worse than you, and who you should really take advice from (for instance:  probably not me!)
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blueblimp

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2012, 04:56:43 pm »
+2

While I tend to agree that a lot of people here are driven by the urge to sit atop a leaderboard, I could also imagine that there's a potentially large casual fanbase that doesn't care at all that would be perfectly happy to just play the game.

In my opinion, the reason a ranking system is important is to have good match-making, not for a leaderboard. A leaderboard is nice, of course, but I don't care that much since I'm nowhere near the top of it. I do care a lot about not playing matches where one player is way, way better than the other. It's just not fun.

The official app could one-up isotropic by implementing a better auto-match system.
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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2012, 05:15:28 pm »
+1

And if you assume that each expansion will cost additional, then the random-from-all-expansions implicit assumption that we have taken for granted may no longer be true.

I really hope this is the case. I'm mighty sick of random-from-all-expansions. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the default game mode will be 10 cards chosen from two or three sets. It'd be nice to see cards like Scout have some actual utility again.
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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2012, 05:49:35 pm »
0

The official app could one-up isotropic by implementing a better auto-match system.

True that. There are definitely ways of combining ranking and matchmaking that make for an awesome gaming experience. Nothing wrong with just randomly selecting an opponent from available ones like Isotropic does, though :)

I really hope this is the case. I'm mighty sick of random-from-all-expansions. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the default game mode will be 10 cards chosen from two or three sets. It'd be nice to see cards like Scout have some actual utility again.

I would be a fan of a mode where it's random-from-all-sets, but weighted randomness, so that on average a game will have something like a 4-3-2-1 split between four expansions or something. Still random-from-all-sets, but weighted so that cards from a given set are more likely to appear together.

Anyhow, something like that seems unlikely. But hey, maybe they will give us a whole bunch of 'options' to customize automatching. Always possible, and no reason not to speculate wildly :)
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chogg

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2012, 12:51:34 pm »
0

I love isotropic, but my biggest gripe is that the logs don't let you fully reconstruct the game.  (You play a Smithy and draw three cards -- which three cards?!)

It clearly isn't an issue of preventing the opponent from seeing private information: already, the game logs show e.g. what each player draws at the end of their turn.

Full game reconstruction is a minimum standard I think we should ask of the logs.  I've been waiting for the official app and assuming it will offer this feature.  If not, I think we should keep bugging them until they put it in.  :)

Another thing I just remembered: for logs with Masquerade on the board, it doesn't tell you what cards were passed.  This means that it's generally impossible even to know the deck composition as a function of turn.

Usually cards enter the deck by "gaining", and leave it by "trashing".  I think Isotropic does well tracking both of those in every case.  But "passing" is an added mechanism whereby cards both enter and leave the deck, and Isotropic doesn't remember what gets passed.

I think "Deck composition as a function of turn" is potentially a very good visualization of a game.  I really hope the official app makes it possible for all games.  And if not, it's worth lobbying for!
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Kirian

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2012, 01:17:41 pm »
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Anyhow, something like that seems unlikely. But hey, maybe they will give us a whole bunch of 'options' to customize automatching. Always possible, and no reason not to speculate wildly :)

Indeed!  I think we should continue speculating wildly until RGG sees fit to tell us a damn thing.
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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2012, 02:05:12 pm »
+2

Rio Grande Games and Donald V. certainly don't owe us anything, but it is horrible business judgment to refuse to provide us any information about the features and the expected release date of the official iPhone app.  Dominion is one of the most popular and well received games of the last 5 years and has a large customer base.  You would think that RGG would see the wisdom of giving us more details about the app (AI, multiplayer, expansions, etc.) and the anticipated release date.  The only information we have received is a cryptic statement last month that its release is coming in the near future.  No list of features.  No screenshots.  Not even an identification of who the developer is.

The way this has been handled makes me pessimistic about how RGG and the developer will respond to customer feedback once the app is finally released and how forthcoming they will be about future plans to improve the app and release additional expansions.
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Kirian

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2012, 02:18:24 pm »
+1

Rio Grande Games and Donald V. certainly don't owe us anything, but it is horrible business judgment to refuse to provide us any information about the features and the expected release date of the official iPhone app.  Dominion is one of the most popular and well received games of the last 5 years and has a large customer base.  You would think that RGG would see the wisdom of giving us more details about the app (AI, multiplayer, expansions, etc.) and the anticipated release date.  The only information we have received is a cryptic statement last month that its release is coming in the near future.  No list of features.  No screenshots.  Not even an identification of who the developer is.

The way this has been handled makes me pessimistic about how RGG and the developer will respond to customer feedback once the app is finally released and how forthcoming they will be about future plans to improve the app and release additional expansions.

I once wrote and then deleted a long rant along these lines--I don't remember if it was this thread or another.  You've been a lot more succinct than I was.

I want to add one thing specifically, which is that all indications are that DXV himself is not being allowed to tell us anything.  My entire beef therefore lies with RGG and Jay.  Dominion is basically their flagship product right now--based on the fact that the only RGG game I've seen in non-gaming stores is Dominion (compare with Mayfair having Catan in stores).  Leaving a whole bunch of people hanging like this is terrible business sense, and Jay never struck me as having bad business sense.
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DrHades

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2012, 02:36:25 pm »
0

Dominion is basically their flagship product right now--based on the fact that the only RGG game I've seen in non-gaming stores is Dominion (compare with Mayfair having Catan in stores).

You never saw Carcassonne in a store? Where do you live?  :)
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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2012, 02:42:56 pm »
0

Dominion is basically their flagship product right now--based on the fact that the only RGG game I've seen in non-gaming stores is Dominion (compare with Mayfair having Catan in stores).

You never saw Carcassonne in a store? Where do you live?  :)

I have also never seen Carcassone in a store not entirely focused on board games and such.  I've seen Dominion though (very rarely).
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barsooma

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2012, 02:57:47 pm »
+1

Rio Grande Games and Donald V. certainly don't owe us anything, but it is horrible business judgment to refuse to provide us any information about the features and the expected release date of the official iPhone app.  Dominion is one of the most popular and well received games of the last 5 years and has a large customer base.  You would think that RGG would see the wisdom of giving us more details about the app (AI, multiplayer, expansions, etc.) and the anticipated release date.  The only information we have received is a cryptic statement last month that its release is coming in the near future.  No list of features.  No screenshots.  Not even an identification of who the developer is.

The way this has been handled makes me pessimistic about how RGG and the developer will respond to customer feedback once the app is finally released and how forthcoming they will be about future plans to improve the app and release additional expansions.

I once wrote and then deleted a long rant along these lines--I don't remember if it was this thread or another.  You've been a lot more succinct than I was.

I want to add one thing specifically, which is that all indications are that DXV himself is not being allowed to tell us anything.  My entire beef therefore lies with RGG and Jay.  Dominion is basically their flagship product right now--based on the fact that the only RGG game I've seen in non-gaming stores is Dominion (compare with Mayfair having Catan in stores).  Leaving a whole bunch of people hanging like this is terrible business sense, and Jay never struck me as having bad business sense.

It does make good business sense in one scenario....
If they know that the game is gonna suck in many ways that will piss off the isotropic fanbase.
In that case it makes perfect sense to keep it under wraps so the bad mouthing doesn't precede the actual release and dissuade other potential buyers.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2012, 03:01:15 pm »
0

It does make good business sense in one scenario....
If they know that the game is gonna suck in many ways that will piss off the isotropic fanbase.
In that case it makes perfect sense to keep it under wraps so the bad mouthing doesn't precede the actual release and dissuade other potential buyers.

I think we have a winner here!
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blueblimp

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Re: Official(?) Dominion App Available on iTunes
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2012, 03:16:24 pm »
+2

Rio Grande Games and Donald V. certainly don't owe us anything, but it is horrible business judgment to refuse to provide us any information about the features and the expected release date of the official iPhone app.  Dominion is one of the most popular and well received games of the last 5 years and has a large customer base.  You would think that RGG would see the wisdom of giving us more details about the app (AI, multiplayer, expansions, etc.) and the anticipated release date.  The only information we have received is a cryptic statement last month that its release is coming in the near future.  No list of features.  No screenshots.  Not even an identification of who the developer is.

The way this has been handled makes me pessimistic about how RGG and the developer will respond to customer feedback once the app is finally released and how forthcoming they will be about future plans to improve the app and release additional expansions.

I once wrote and then deleted a long rant along these lines--I don't remember if it was this thread or another.  You've been a lot more succinct than I was.

I want to add one thing specifically, which is that all indications are that DXV himself is not being allowed to tell us anything.  My entire beef therefore lies with RGG and Jay.  Dominion is basically their flagship product right now--based on the fact that the only RGG game I've seen in non-gaming stores is Dominion (compare with Mayfair having Catan in stores).  Leaving a whole bunch of people hanging like this is terrible business sense, and Jay never struck me as having bad business sense.

It does make good business sense in one scenario....
If they know that the game is gonna suck in many ways that will piss off the isotropic fanbase.
In that case it makes perfect sense to keep it under wraps so the bad mouthing doesn't precede the actual release and dissuade other potential buyers.

Yeah, this is the same reason Apple avoids announcing products before they're ready to be sold, because they are so bad that if people knew about them ahead of time, they would never buy them.

Or wait, maybe it's that they want to generate interest in the app when it's actually available to buy.
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