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[Taco Lobster]

At least I think it's the official dominion app.  I just noticed it last night.  It's free and has all the cards from the base set.  You can play online (which I haven't done yet) or with up to 3 AI's, none of which are particularly good (and I can't find any settings to increase difficulty).

There are still a number of elements isotropic handles better (particularly differentiating money in your hand from money produced by actions), but I would assume we'll see upgrades as sets/cards are released.

[barsooma]

Nope not official. If you look at the ratings there's a ton of backlash and it's stirred up a bit of a shitstorm over on the BGG forums.

However, it did draw out a new official comment on the official app: "Real soon now" or something to that effect.

[PerdHapley]

However, it did draw out a new official comment on the official app: "Real soon now" or something to that effect.

Here's that quote, from Jay at RGG: "In any case, as long as it is free, it is allowed, at least for a few weeks until the licensed app becomes available."

Looks like this is happening real soon.

EDIT: Here's a more in depth statement from jay on the BGG forum:

"To update you all, we are now (including me) testing the Dominion app and I have been very pleased with the product the licensee has produced. I have played it using Safari, Firefox, iPad, and iPhone and it works well on all these platforms. I am told it works on others, but that is all I have at my immediate disposal. The IA is simple, but will certainly serve to help a new player learn the game and get started. We expect it to be available in the VERY near future and will announce a date as soon as we have one. Thanks!!

Jay"

[Donald X.]

At least I think it's the official dominion app.  I just noticed it last night.  It's free and has all the cards from the base set.  You can play online (which I haven't done yet) or with up to 3 AI's, none of which are particularly good (and I can't find any settings to increase difficulty).

It is not our program. Jay gave them permission months ago to have a free game up as long as we don't have an official one, I assume as usual forgetting to mention that they couldn't use the art.

These guys haven't just put up a program that fools people into thinking its ours; they also registered some domain names with "dominion" in them, such as dominionandroid dot com. So, despite Jay's public friendliness on this matter, I utterly anti-endorse them, do not support these guys in any way.

[Beyond Awesome]

At least I think it's the official dominion app.  I just noticed it last night.  It's free and has all the cards from the base set.  You can play online (which I haven't done yet) or with up to 3 AI's, none of which are particularly good (and I can't find any settings to increase difficulty).

It is not our program. Jay gave them permission months ago to have a free game up as long as we don't have an official one, I assume as usual forgetting to mention that they couldn't use the art.

These guys haven't just put up a program that fools people into thinking its ours; they also registered some domain names with "dominion" in them, such as dominionandroid dot com. So, despite Jay's public friendliness on this matter, I utterly anti-endorse them, do not support these guys in any way.

Kind of sucks that they bought those domain names. Anyway, I won't support their app. No worries, Donald.

[Ferrouswheel]

So everyone should download the app, and then give it poor reviews.

[barsooma]

At least I think it's the official dominion app.  I just noticed it last night.  It's free and has all the cards from the base set.  You can play online (which I haven't done yet) or with up to 3 AI's, none of which are particularly good (and I can't find any settings to increase difficulty).

It is not our program. Jay gave them permission months ago to have a free game up as long as we don't have an official one, I assume as usual forgetting to mention that they couldn't use the art.

These guys haven't just put up a program that fools people into thinking its ours; they also registered some domain names with "dominion" in them, such as dominionandroid dot com. So, despite Jay's public friendliness on this matter, I utterly anti-endorse them, do not support these guys in any way.

Donald I gotta say that I think your attitude sucks.
Yeah he used your name in the app store description, but I think that was meant as an attribution rather than an attempt to steal legitimacy.

I was a beta tester for this app, although I didn't do much as the user interface was too annoying for me to enjoy playing it.

It has been under development for nearly a year, and the author clearly loves dominion. I don't think he's trying to fool anyone, and if your business partner are communicating things to him that you don't like then you should take that up with them, not trash him without even knowing the facts.

And you don't have a monopoly on using dominion in a domain name - if you wanted those names you should have paid for them yourself.
 Besides I think it's quite likely that if you asked Cory would transfer them to you. Have you even tried communicating with him?

[Donald X.]

Donald I gotta say that I think your attitude sucks.

So, you think we have been anything other than record-setting insanely generous to our fans? You don't see me calling the Androminion guy names. Really dude, wtf.

Yeah he used your name in the app store description, but I think that was meant as an attribution rather than an attempt to steal legitimacy.

I haven't said anything about that. I said that it fooled people into thinking it was the official program, because it has, repeatedly. No-one thinks Androminion is official, what's up with that? Whatever Androminion did to avoid confusion, was that so hard that we shouldn't expect that of anyone else?

and if your business partner are communicating things to him that you don't like then you should take that up with them

Since anything I said privately to RGG, you would necessarily not see, you have no idea what I've said to RGG. People like to imagine incredible fights between us when this stuff comes up, but we have like no conflicts whatsoever.

, not trash him without even knowing the facts.

And you don't have a monopoly on using dominion in a domain name - if you wanted those names you should have paid for them yourself.

I am 100% sure he has those domain names, I looked at whois and everything. He has them. You are not so correct on the matter of who gets to have what domain names, at least in the USA (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#Domain_names). But I am not saying I wanted those domain names or what have you. I am saying, who would do that, why would they do that, what exactly are the motivations of someone who registers those domain names. Incredible non-profit fan joy? Is that your theory?

I am unlikely to lose money due to this program. If I lose money it's unlikely to be enough that I care. The point to having a digital Dominion, from my perspective, isn't about making money anyway - it's to have the program exist, for ungrateful fans such as yourself (not that I'm turning down my cut). But whatever happens, I have lost time, and continue to, and for that I just want to say no to every fan asking permission for anything. Dealing with this stuff just sucks so hard.

[barsooma]

Donald I gotta say that I think your attitude sucks.

So, you think we have been anything other than record-setting insanely generous to our fans? You don't see me calling the Androminion guy names. Really dude, wtf.

Yes, I think you're being a bit of an asshole considering you don't have a legal leg to stand on if someone decides to create an isotropic clone and doesn't agree to take it down at your pleasure.

Yeah he used your name in the app store description, but I think that was meant as an attribution rather than an attempt to steal legitimacy.

I haven't said anything about that. I said that it fooled people into thinking it was the official program, because it has, repeatedly. No-one thinks Androminion is official, what's up with that? Whatever Androminion did to avoid confusion, was that so hard that we shouldn't expect that of anyone else?

Sure, I agree he could have done a better job making it clear it's not official. I also don't think that he's not trying to scam anyone, so maybe better communication could have prevented all this drama.

and if your business partner are communicating things to him that you don't like then you should take that up with them

Since anything I said privately to RGG, you would necessarily not see, you have no idea what I've said to RGG. People like to imagine incredible fights between us when this stuff comes up, but we have like no conflicts whatsoever.

I really couldn't care less about any communication between you and RGG. However, I think you make an extremely poor spokesperson.

, not trash him without even knowing the facts.

And you don't have a monopoly on using dominion in a domain name - if you wanted those names you should have paid for them yourself.

I am 100% sure he has those domain names, I looked at whois and everything. He has them. You are not so correct on the matter of who gets to have what domain names, at least in the USA (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#Domain_names). But I am not saying I wanted those domain names or what have you. I am saying, who would do that, why would they do that, what exactly are the motivations of someone who registers those domain names. Incredible non-profit fan joy? Is that your theory?
I realize he owns those domain names. So you think he's trying to people or hold you for ransom with a free app? Is that your theory?

I am unlikely to lose money due to this program. If I lose money it's unlikely to be enough that I care. The point to having a digital Dominion, from my perspective, isn't about making money anyway - it's to have the program exist, for ungrateful fans such as yourself (not that I'm turning down my cut). But whatever happens, I have lost time, and continue to, and for that I just want to say no to every fan asking permission for anything. Dealing with this stuff just sucks so hard.

Don't call me a fan, ungrateful or otherwise. I lost whatever respect I had for you I when I first saw your bitching on BGG and this certainly clinches it.

[rspeer]

barsooma: you, uh, might want to keep studying for that armchair lawyer degree.

[Donald X.]

Don't call me a fan, ungrateful or otherwise. I lost whatever respect I had for you I when I first saw your bitching on BGG and this certainly clinches it.

'k, you aren't a fan, man, I am cool with that. Why are you hanging around a dominion strategy site then? There's nothing for you here.

Your posts here are the perfect example of why things like this itunes program suck so hard. Like a while back, jatill made his version, and he got to have it, man, we didn't mind that and it's still there today, being played, and a bunch of people got to say what a jerk I was for not being even more generous to him. I was so evil for being polite to him in a pm and saying he had to ask for permission to use the art, and then saying it was no good when he got bored waiting for an answer and just used it. How dare I! There is a BGG thread full of people who thought I was the devil over that.

I owe you nothing dude. People sometimes say "thanks for making Dominion," and originally I was like, "it's okay, I made it for my friends," but now I am all, "you're welcome," because while making the games is fun, dealing with everything else sure isn't. It's a bummer putting up with the barsoomas who think I am being impolite to people who make a program that people think is official and register domain names for it, but what can you do, it's the internet.

[barsooma]

Donald: I think that you've made a pretty nice game and I'm glad you did - thanks for that.
I also gave money to your publisher for my copies of it, so as far as I'm concerned we're square there.
However, Doug Z. has contributed far more to my enjoyment of Dominion than you ever did - if it wasn't for him it would just be another game I play once or twice a month, rather than something I've racked up hundreds of matches of.

You say you don't owe me anything, and that is true in some sense - but if you want me as a potential future customer then you certainly owe me a degree of respect.

Let's be honest: it's nice that you have given your blessing to free unofficial implementations, but they don't really need it.
No copyright exists on the rules of dominion, I doubt a copyright on the card text would hold up, and while you could make a trademark claim that is easily sidestepped (viz. Battle of Gundabad).

The only thing stopping such an operation is peoples respect for you as the designer - and I would have a lot more for you if you would stop being so secretive.
Why not share some details about the official version, have a beta test or something? (That would make a great prize for the IsoDom tournaments!)
Instead we are only told repeatedly that isotropic will be shut down "in the near future" with no assurances about the replacement.

And I'll ask you again - did you try to communicate with Cory Hammer at all before you started trashing his reputation on message boards?

[DStu]

The only thing stopping such an operation is peoples respect for you as the designer - and I would have a lot more for you if you would stop being so secretive.

lolwut? http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?board=14.0

Concerning the app, I think anybody who has followed this topic a little bit on this board should have recognized that the development of this app is in the hand of someone else. This includes marketing and announcements (by contract or courtesy or whatever). So Donald told us what he thinks he can tell us without angering the developers, and every complain concerning this app belongs to them. This of course is difficult, as you don't know who they are, but maybe just make a list and send it to them once you know it?

[Taco Lobster]

Huh.  Good to know it wasn't the official app - it's not terrible, but there's definitely room for improvement. 

It's definitely not obvious that this app isn't the official one, even for those who've followed the status of the app here.  Given the tenor of recent comments about Isotropic closing down, I figured the official app would be coming soon.  Seeing an app with art from the game, the name Donald X. stamped all over, and Rio Grande games seemed a pretty strong indication that this was the official app.  I didn't anticipate that a third party would infringe on copyrights and trademarks to such an extent.

[barsooma]

There's been a lot of talk here about trademark infrigement -
I want to point out the trademark for Dominion in the goods of computer game software, video game software and online entertainment services is held by Riot Games (publishers of League of Legends: Dominion). Sony previously held a similar mark, but it was abandoned in 2009.

Furthermore I haven't seen any evidence that Rio Grande holds a trademark on the word Dominion in any good.

[jsh357]

Finally, an even stupider thread than the decline of civility on Isotropic

[barsooma]

The only thing stopping such an operation is peoples respect for you as the designer - and I would have a lot more for you if you would stop being so secretive.

lolwut? http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?board=14.0

Concerning the app, I think anybody who has followed this topic a little bit on this board should have recognized that the development of this app is in the hand of someone else. This includes marketing and announcements (by contract or courtesy or whatever). So Donald told us what he thinks he can tell us without angering the developers, and every complain concerning this app belongs to them. This of course is difficult, as you don't know who they are, but maybe just make a list and send it to them once you know it?

Good job quoting out of context DStu.
Speaking of secretive, how about this: http://gamesandgrub.blogspot.com/
According to that page, development on the official version didn't even start until this fall - despite the previous expected release date of end of 2011.

[DrHades]

The only thing stopping such an operation is peoples respect for you as the designer - and I would have a lot more for you if you would stop being so secretive.

lolwut? http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?board=14.0

Concerning the app, I think anybody who has followed this topic a little bit on this board should have recognized that the development of this app is in the hand of someone else. This includes marketing and announcements (by contract or courtesy or whatever). So Donald told us what he thinks he can tell us without angering the developers, and every complain concerning this app belongs to them. This of course is difficult, as you don't know who they are, but maybe just make a list and send it to them once you know it?

Good job quoting out of context DStu.
Speaking of secretive, how about this: http://gamesandgrub.blogspot.com/
According to that page, development on the official version didn't even start until this fall - despite the previous expected release date of end of 2011.

Oh my god! He did warn as in advance that Isotropic will be closing! Can you believe it?! He's a villain indeed...

[DStu]

I actually had the impression that most characters of the post where devoted to the app, and my theory why we don't get many informations about it, and why Donald has exactly nothing to do with what we get and what we don't get. Spiced with a link that usually the flow of information is a little bit stronger...

[Geronimoo]

I just played a two player game against a real person with the App and it's pretty awesome (only thing I don't like is not being able to chat via text). I say awesome because I've played with Androminion... (which is still a great program, but the GUI is really annoying)

I'm betting the official app is going to be even awesome...r.

[barsooma]

I just played a two player game against a real person with the App and it's pretty awesome (only thing I don't like is not being able to chat via text). I say awesome because I've played with Androminion... (which is still a great program, but the GUI is really annoying)

I'm betting the official app is going to be even awesome...r.

Really? The whole dragging and card animation thing drives me up the wall. I sure hope the official app doesn't screw around with that.

[Taco Lobster]

There's been a lot of talk here about trademark infrigement -
I want to point out the trademark for Dominion in the goods of computer game software, video game software and online entertainment services is held by Riot Games (publishers of League of Legends: Dominion). Sony previously held a similar mark, but it was abandoned in 2009.

Furthermore I haven't seen any evidence that Rio Grande holds a trademark on the word Dominion in any good.

It's been ages since the one IP class I took in law school, but, IIRC, you are talking about a registered trademark, not a common law or state law trademark.  A registered trademark provides certain additional protections/remedies in the event of infringement.  One can still have a trademark without it being a registered trademark.

But, setting that aside, the heart of trademark claim/law is the prohibition on selling goods under a mark used by someone else in commerce.  The hair splitting as to the industry comes into play later, and usually involves two independently created marks.  Further, even if the name "Dominion" is not protected as a trademark, the logo itself and the combination of the same font type/design elements/etc. as are used by RGG in selling their Dominion product likely are.  The RGG logo itself is almost certainly a registered trademark, and that is used in this app as well, and further reinforces the idea that this is the actual RGG Dominion app, not a third party fan effort.  When, as is the case here, one company is selling (or, in this case, making revenue off ads through offering for free) the same product as is sold by another company, under the same name, and using the same fonts/art/design/etc., that's the heart of a trademark infringement claim - and not one that I'd want to defend. 

I don't mean to look a gift horse in the mouth - I like the program (insofar as it addresses my need for a Dominion fix against an AI player), and appreciate that it's a fan effort.  But it's so clearly in violation of IP rights that the person who released it should not have done so.  I doubt Donald would be any happier with a re-skinned version that still used the same mechanics (particularly given that such a program does exist and such unhappiness has been expressed), but this product incorporates so much of the art and visual style of Dominon that it invites confusion.   

Further, I'm forgiving of the program's bugs and flaws because I'm a dominion addict and want to play casually against AI opponents (even really bad ones).  I wouldn't be surprised if someone downloaded this program, thought it was rubbish, and incorrectly assumed it was the official version.  When the official version is released, that person might not realize that they played an unofficial, unpolished, amateur product (albeit, a good amateur product) and assume that they've already played the game and disliked it.

Again, I appreciate the hard work that went into this app, I'm happy that it exists (at least till the official app is relased - assuming it is better), but I think the person who put it up is being willfully blind of how egregiously their app plays on the official Dominion IP and art. 

[ackack]

Donald: I think that you've made a pretty nice game and I'm glad you did - thanks for that.
I also gave money to your publisher for my copies of it, so as far as I'm concerned we're square there.
However, Doug Z. has contributed far more to my enjoyment of Dominion than you ever did - if it wasn't for him it would just be another game I play once or twice a month, rather than something I've racked up hundreds of matches of.

I find myself agreeing with this (along with a fair bit of the rest of barsooma's stance.) Dominion is a fantastic game, but in terms of pure game mechanics (leaving out the social side of things) it just screams to be played on computers. I suspect most of us here have an obsession with Dominion that is primarily due to Isotropic. It is indeed generous to allow fan versions of Dominion to pop up on the internet. It also seems like a pretty good idea from a business standpoint - the amount of money I've spent and will spend on Dominion is way higher than it would have been had Isotropic not existed. I think that and the relative inscrutability to me of things like

The point to having a digital Dominion, from my perspective, isn't about making money anyway - it's to have the program exist, for ungrateful fans such as yourself (not that I'm turning down my cut).

is why I am more sympathetic than most to barsooma. (Digital Dominion does exist! It's being widely played! How many people are confused about who the creator of the game is? Wanting to monetize it makes a ton of sense to me, and while obviously I like free is totally fair. But the other justifications, here and in the way earlier thread on this subject, just seem nonsensical to me.)

added:

Again, I appreciate the hard work that went into this app, I'm happy that it exists (at least till the official app is relased - assuming it is better), but I think the person who put it up is being willfully blind of how egregiously their app plays on the official Dominion IP and art. 

I doubt they're blind. It sounds like they asked permission and got it from Jay! The art thing sounds like a legitimate beef/bad action. But even the domain name doesn't seem that crazy to me - it's a Dominion app that got permission from RGG. I'd agree with barsooma that asking about switching over the domains seems easy enough to do. If the dude is trying to make money squatting on those domains, yeah, that's pretty lame, but do we even have evidence for that?

[Piemaster]

I think this thread is a neat illustration of why game developers usually try to keep customers at arms length and not get too chummy.  The fact is I can see both sides of the argument.

Donald X (and I assume RGG) probably thinks he has been more than generous with the amount of unlicensed content he has allowed to exist (and even tacitly encouraged) surrounding Dominion, and that this good will is being exploited, and he would be correct.  He takes a lot of time to interact with the commmunity, far beyond that which is commercially advantageous to him I would imagine.  However, as a result, he seems to have a slightly unrealistic expectation on the behaviour of randoms on the internet who will look to exploit the game for their own ends, whether those ends be financial, or otherwise. 

I mean while the Dominion community is fairly close-knit and friendly, the game is popular and played by thousands all around the world.  And when something is popular it is going to be have a lot of 'content' created around it, can be anything from a fan site to a full-blown ripoff.  We can discuss the finer points of American intellectual property law until we're blue in the face, but companies much larger than RGG have spectacularly failed to enforce it on the internet and often make only a token attempt to try.  Donald and Doug have a great relationship, but it is unrealistic to expect every relationship with fans out there to be as cosy and symbiotic.  And if he is spending ages obsessing over who has registered what domain name with 'Dominion' in it, and trading insults with randoms posting on the forums, then he probably not spending his time as well as he could.

If Donald had behaved more like a 'typical faceless corporation' from the start, feeding us a controlled diet of 'official statements' and having a strong official stance against anything even vaguely resembling Dominion then we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.  We have benefitted from him not acting like this (through the likes of isotropic and comparitively good information flow), but so, of course, has he (through the development of a loyal fanbase of both this and future games).  While the relationship between Donald and the community is strong, we mustn't lose sight of the fact that it is primarily a producer/customer relationship.  He needs us as much as we need him and vica-versa.

[barsooma]

eing exploited, and he would be correct.  He takes a lot of time to interact with the commmunity, far beyond that which is commercially advantageous to him I would imagine.  However, as a result, he seems to have a slightly unrealistic expectation on the behaviour of randoms on the internet who will look to exploit the game for their own ends, whether those ends be financial, or otherwise. 

Ok I'm gonna say this again... what exploitation is taking place here?

The app is free, there are no ads in-app or on the website, contrary to what someone else implied.
He is perfectly within his rights to register the domain he did, and it's a pretty obvious description of his program (dominion for the iphone)
Everything I know points to the author being a fan who wants to create a good portable digital implementation, and believing he made a good-faith effort to get permission from RGG.

Until I see an official response from them (i.e. more than Donald's un-endorsement) I see no reason to believe he's done anything illegal.
Jay had plenty of opportunity to condemn this program when he posted several times in the thread about this on BGG, and he did not do so.

[Taco Lobster]

The app is free, there are no ads in-app or on the website, contrary to what someone else implied.

My mistake on the ads - it was actually Angry Birds reminding me that the Mighty Eagle was available for my son to use.  It was similar looking to the ads that pop up in Ascension, which is where my confusion came in.

The harm caused by this app is fairly indirect, but the story is much as I laid out above.  Consumer purchases app believing it is the official Dominion App.  The app itself, while rock solid from the perspective of a fan effort, is not quite up to par with a commercial release.  The consumer decides that the Dominion app isn't any good, and never investigates further to see if an official one is being released. 

[Kirian]

Ay ay ay.

I feel for Donald here, and I think Piemaster is right.  Donald has shown nothing but goodwill for all of these developers apps, including and especially isotropic.  He could have been a jerk, or he could have let RGG do all the communication, but he hasn't.  And most of the time it's gotten him nothing but hassle; sometimes it's gotten him in the spot where this particular app is, which is to say that his goodwill has been stretched and/or exploited.

Oh, sure, it might not be illegal.  It might not be for profit or anything.  But making the game designer feel exploited, no matter how the publisher feels, is going to end up with bad feelings toward the app from most of the Dominion community, because I think most of us have high regard for Donald--partially because of his goodwill to the community.

I personally have some beefs about the official app, mainly to do with lack of information--I even wrote a long screed that I then never posted after thinking better of it--but those beefs are with Jay and RGG.  When it comes to the official app, disliking what Donald tells us is killing the messenger, which is especially terrible when RGG hasn't actually given him a message to give us.  Hell, IMO Jay is treating Donald like Hamlet treated Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.

Donald's trying his best here, guys.  The decisions about apps are made by RGG and Jay.  Direct your ire there.

[^_^_^_^]

Agreed. Donald, in the future, I wouldn't even respond to flame posts/flame mail/ etc. like this. You've done your good deeds and you continue to do them. So what if someone else doesn't like how you do your job? They should see how it is as a developer of a game in a big company! Sometimes you have to be quiet.

At least RGG isn't pulling any Blizzard stunts to make us wait years for each expansion. In fact, I am astounded by the speed that RGG and Donald pull out these expansions. I never would've expected them to come in such rapid succession. Maybe 1 every 2 years but 1-2 a year?!? Amazing. Honestly, the amount of bad ideas there are out there that he probably went through himself just proves how hard his job is, and that isn't even including his treatment to DS.com and BGG.com!

edit: Also, nice post theory 

[theory]

Without DougZ, this site / community of people would not exist.  No one would be playing 6000+ games of Dominion and writing 10K+ word articles for it.  Nevertheless, the underlying game is still Dominion by Donald X.  It's not like it was an accident this game is so deep: trust me when I tell you that Donald is pretty good at this game.  Dougz probably deserves much more credit than he gets for popularizing the game, but van Cliburn is not Tchaikovsky.

What I think drives barsooma's ire, and sympathies thereto, is the threat of Isotropic being taken down for a for-pay product.  Which everyone is currently assuming will be bad, based on circumstantial evidence.  The dearth of official news only contributes to this: I think it's a wise policy, but in the absence of facts you get rumors and speculation, usually negative.

But that's a debate we've been over a thousand times.  Everyone has the incentives to see Isotropic2 succeed.  RGG caters more to the casual gamer, but surely they have some interest in replicating the competitive atmosphere of Isotropic and allowing for a site like this to prosper in a way that a BSW-esque site could not.  Or maybe not, and DominionStrategy goes down with Isotropic1.  The point is, if you assume that Isotropic2 is going to be fabulous, then most of these objections fade away.  And there's not enough reason yet to assume otherwise.

[ftl]

I was definitely excited by the news that it would work on all those different browsers. I'd been afraid that it would become a Downloadable Program and then maybe wouldn't work on Linux because such things often don't, but a new browser-based implementation sounds like it'll be really portable and work great

And it's sad that there's posters that tend to drive Donald away from posting it's really good to hear his input on the game and on the app and on everything.

Anyhow, hopefully the other app stops pretending to be official, and the official one comes out soon and is even better than isotropic 

[edit]Also, what Beyond Awesome says just below this. [/edit]

[Beyond Awesome]

I just want to say it makes me upset when I see posts that attack Donald X. He did create the games, and I think his opinions need to be respected. He has also been highly involved in the community, and that is beyond amazing. I mean, I kind of feel like some of the earlier posts would be like me going up to Christopher Noland and flaming him for not being secretive about The Dark Knight Rises. Not the best comparison, but you get my point. Donald has made an amazing game, and Nolan has made amazing movies. Both people deserve respect. And, because this is a Dominion site, I do think it is important to not treat Donald so poorly. That's all.

[Piemaster]

eing exploited, and he would be correct.  He takes a lot of time to interact with the commmunity, far beyond that which is commercially advantageous to him I would imagine.  However, as a result, he seems to have a slightly unrealistic expectation on the behaviour of randoms on the internet who will look to exploit the game for their own ends, whether those ends be financial, or otherwise. 

Ok I'm gonna say this again... what exploitation is taking place here?

I think you misunderstand the word exploitation.  It just means using for your own ends, nothing more nothing less.  I am exploiting this forum by posting here.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

When I was a younger man I spent literally thousands of dollars on Magic cards, and plenty more on other CCGs and tabletops, video games, video game subs, P&P RPGs, you name it.  Dominion seemed to me like the perfect deal at the time that I found it; no longer having nearly as much expendable income (acquired a mini-me) the CCG-type game without the "collectibility" aspect was great.  Buy the box, you get all the parts up front.  It is a great model, one that responsible adults can really get behind.

But I gotta tell you, Donald X, if it were not for finding BSW the week I bought the original Dominion Box, I probably would have bought Intrigue.  BSW taught me that this game was really, really fun online against a legion of opponents, available day or night.  Goons and Venture appearing on BSW led me back to BGG, interested enough in Dominion to look further in and decide whether to try to budget a copy of Prosperity, and instead found Isotropic.  A perfectly functioning version of the game, online, not only free but with the licence holder's approval.  So you lost two sales.

I want to support you, and your business people, and Comic Book World, Old Shepardsville Rd, one mile south of the Outer Loop in Louisville, KY.  I also want to make ends meet, vacation in Sunset Beach, NC maybe or go to Cedar Point or a Colt's game every year or two, and having a perfectly functioning version of your game, online, not only free but with the licence holder's approval, makes it very hard to justify buying your boxes of cards, or Skyram, for that matter.

I will be pleased as punch to pony up a reasonable amount for the upcoming online release.  You guys deserve it.

[Ferrouswheel]

(acquired a mini-me)

Jerk Jr Jelly?

[Mean Mr Mustard]

You could say that, yes.

[jonts26]

When I was a younger man I spent literally thousands of dollars on Magic cards, and plenty more on other CCGs and tabletops, video games, video game subs, P&P RPGs, you name it.  Dominion seemed to me like the perfect deal at the time that I found it; no longer having nearly as much expendable income (acquired a mini-me) the CCG-type game without the "collectibility" aspect was great.  Buy the box, you get all the parts up front.  It is a great model, one that responsible adults can really get behind.

But I gotta tell you, Donald X, if it were not for finding BSW the week I bought the original Dominion Box, I probably would have bought Intrigue.  BSW taught me that this game was really, really fun online against a legion of opponents, available day or night.  Goons and Venture appearing on BSW led me back to BGG, interested enough in Dominion to look further in and decide whether to try to budget a copy of Prosperity, and instead found Isotropic.  A perfectly functioning version of the game, online, not only free but with the licence holder's approval.  So you lost two sales.

I want to support you, and your business people, and Comic Book World, Old Shepardsville Rd, one mile south of the Outer Loop in Louisville, KY.  I also want to make ends meet, vacation in Sunset Beach, NC maybe or go to Cedar Point or a Colt's game every year or two, and having a perfectly functioning version of your game, online, not only free but with the licence holder's approval, makes it very hard to justify buying your boxes of cards, or Skyram, for that matter.

I will be pleased as punch to pony up a reasonable amount for the upcoming online release.  You guys deserve it.

I feel somewhat like the opposite happened to me. While I loved Dominion before I found Iso, I don't have enough people to regularly play it with IRL to justify buying all the expansions. However, I felt somewhat obligated after sinking hundreds of hours into the online game to go out an spend some disposable income on so far most of the expansions. If I pay for an online version, I probably don't feel the same pressure to gobble up expansions.

[Matt_Arnold]

DXV has been unbelievably generous. No one is within their rights to use the official artwork in their fan version. Rio Grande paid a lot of money to have that artwork made. That's a clear line in the sand.

[paddyodoors]

When I was a younger man I spent literally thousands of dollars on Magic cards, and plenty more on other CCGs and tabletops, video games, video game subs, P&P RPGs, you name it.  Dominion seemed to me like the perfect deal at the time that I found it; no longer having nearly as much expendable income (acquired a mini-me) the CCG-type game without the "collectibility" aspect was great.  Buy the box, you get all the parts up front.  It is a great model, one that responsible adults can really get behind.

But I gotta tell you, Donald X, if it were not for finding BSW the week I bought the original Dominion Box, I probably would have bought Intrigue.  BSW taught me that this game was really, really fun online against a legion of opponents, available day or night.  Goons and Venture appearing on BSW led me back to BGG, interested enough in Dominion to look further in and decide whether to try to budget a copy of Prosperity, and instead found Isotropic.  A perfectly functioning version of the game, online, not only free but with the licence holder's approval.  So you lost two sales.

I want to support you, and your business people, and Comic Book World, Old Shepardsville Rd, one mile south of the Outer Loop in Louisville, KY.  I also want to make ends meet, vacation in Sunset Beach, NC maybe or go to Cedar Point or a Colt's game every year or two, and having a perfectly functioning version of your game, online, not only free but with the licence holder's approval, makes it very hard to justify buying your boxes of cards, or Skyram, for that matter.

I will be pleased as punch to pony up a reasonable amount for the upcoming online release.  You guys deserve it.

(My first post -- been lurking for a bit now)

My experience with Dominion has been the exact opposite, MMM.  A family friend suggested I play the game back in September (2011), and I gave it a shot because I knew theory from the BGG Twilight Struggle forums and knew that he was a big fan of this game.  I played it and liked it.

So, I went home and checked BGG for places to play online.  I found BoardGameArena, which was fun.  And I found DS.com, which was amazing (as we all know).   But BGA was only base+intrigue, and DS.com made reference to cool cards and mechanics that I had never seen.  So I migrated over to Isotropic to try out these new and shiny things, and have been hooked ever since.

But online play doesn't appeal to those in my life who would also really really enjoy this game (my wife, my dad, my siblings, my friends).  So in the past couple of months I have scrapped up enough money to buy the base game and Intrigue, and received Seaside and Alchemy as Christmas gifts.  And I have taught the game to all of my regular gaming partners, and they all love it and want more, so I fully intend on buying the other expansions as disposable income/goodwill of gift-givers permits.

tl;dr - Isotropic directly contributed to me buying/receiving 4 Dominion boxes, with more purchases soon to follow.

Take a bow, Donald X. and DougZ! (and theory!)

[Nitsuj]

Depending on the pricing structure for the online system - will it be a monthly cost?  Or will it be a one time cost, I cannot say that I'll come on board for the online system or not.  A one-time cost, I'd strongly consider it - a recurring monthly cost - no way.

This makes for a danger for Dominion in my life, in general - because I have all the cards other than Cornucopia and the Promos.  And a big reason I bought the recent cards is because of seeing them on isotropic.  But as far as dominion hitting the game table - its chances are limited.  This is for a few reasons:

1)  Simple storage solution - Unless I can take the game with me places - it won't get played.  I've managed to squeeze everything into one box - so this problem is solved, but there is no way I can squeeze in another expansion.
2)  It is a chore to setup, once you are spoiled with Isotropic, digging out a random set of kingdom cards is a pain.  It is something I think about while I'm putting my games into my game bag for an upcoming gaming opportunity.
3)  It is a game that my more serious gamer friends, fellow SWCCG and LOTRCCG veterans, are discouraged to play against me, because I have so much more experience playing it thanks to isotropic.  They would rather play other games where the playing field is more level (like Seven Wonders or Puerto Rico).  Dominion mostly hits my game table at family functions with my brother-in-laws, but even then it is competing against games like Stone Age, Power Grid, or Agricola.

So, for these reasons, and pending closure of Isotropic for a pay site - I could see myself leaving Dominion altogether. 

I'm curious whats going to come out of all this, I've been keeping my eye on these forums just to catch a whiff of what is coming.  Lack of answers is frustrating, but I understand why things need to be close to the chest.

[WanderingWinder]

Depending on the pricing structure for the online system - will it be a monthly cost?  Or will it be a one time cost, I cannot say that I'll come on board for the online system or not.  A one-time cost, I'd strongly consider it - a recurring monthly cost - no way.

This makes for a danger for Dominion in my life, in general - because I have all the cards other than Cornucopia and the Promos.  And a big reason I bought the recent cards is because of seeing them on isotropic.  But as far as dominion hitting the game table - its chances are limited.  This is for a few reasons:

1)  Simple storage solution - Unless I can take the game with me places - it won't get played.  I've managed to squeeze everything into one box - so this problem is solved, but there is no way I can squeeze in another expansion.
2)  It is a chore to setup, once you are spoiled with Isotropic, digging out a random set of kingdom cards is a pain.  It is something I think about while I'm putting my games into my game bag for an upcoming gaming opportunity.
3)  It is a game that my more serious gamer friends, fellow SWCCG and LOTRCCG veterans, are discouraged to play against me, because I have so much more experience playing it thanks to isotropic.  They would rather play other games where the playing field is more level (like Seven Wonders or Puerto Rico).  Dominion mostly hits my game table at family functions with my brother-in-laws, but even then it is competing against games like Stone Age, Power Grid, or Agricola.

So, for these reasons, and pending closure of Isotropic for a pay site - I could see myself leaving Dominion altogether. 

I'm curious whats going to come out of all this, I've been keeping my eye on these forums just to catch a whiff of what is coming.  Lack of answers is frustrating, but I understand why things need to be close to the chest.

Out of curiosity, which incarnation of the SWCCG are you referring to?

[sherwinpr]

Depending on the pricing structure for the online system - will it be a monthly cost?  Or will it be a one time cost, I cannot say that I'll come on board for the online system or not.  A one-time cost, I'd strongly consider it - a recurring monthly cost - no way.

This makes for a danger for Dominion in my life, in general - because I have all the cards other than Cornucopia and the Promos.  And a big reason I bought the recent cards is because of seeing them on isotropic.  But as far as dominion hitting the game table - its chances are limited.  This is for a few reasons:

1)  Simple storage solution - Unless I can take the game with me places - it won't get played.  I've managed to squeeze everything into one box - so this problem is solved, but there is no way I can squeeze in another expansion.
2)  It is a chore to setup, once you are spoiled with Isotropic, digging out a random set of kingdom cards is a pain.  It is something I think about while I'm putting my games into my game bag for an upcoming gaming opportunity.
3)  It is a game that my more serious gamer friends, fellow SWCCG and LOTRCCG veterans, are discouraged to play against me, because I have so much more experience playing it thanks to isotropic.  They would rather play other games where the playing field is more level (like Seven Wonders or Puerto Rico).  Dominion mostly hits my game table at family functions with my brother-in-laws, but even then it is competing against games like Stone Age, Power Grid, or Agricola.

So, for these reasons, and pending closure of Isotropic for a pay site - I could see myself leaving Dominion altogether. 

I'm curious whats going to come out of all this, I've been keeping my eye on these forums just to catch a whiff of what is coming.  Lack of answers is frustrating, but I understand why things need to be close to the chest.

Out of curiosity, which incarnation of the SWCCG are you referring to?

My guess is the Decipher version (Star Wars Customizable Card Game), since he also mentioned and LotR game (and once again, I'm assuming he's referring to the Decipher version and not the earlier Middle Earth game, or the more recent FFG LCG), and there was a lot of cross-over between the player bases of those games since they were both Decipher products.  That, and I think the Decipher version is more likely to be referred to as serious compared to the Wizards version, and the "lesser" Decipher versions (Young Jedi and Jedi Knights).

I loved the Decipher game (and still do, I play casually with virtually cards every now and then and follow the current player developments), and I'm glad to see there are fans of that game here.  Or maybe that's just wishful thinking.  The Wizards game was interesting aspects, but I found it lacking over all.  And too much dice!

[WanderingWinder]

Depending on the pricing structure for the online system - will it be a monthly cost?  Or will it be a one time cost, I cannot say that I'll come on board for the online system or not.  A one-time cost, I'd strongly consider it - a recurring monthly cost - no way.

This makes for a danger for Dominion in my life, in general - because I have all the cards other than Cornucopia and the Promos.  And a big reason I bought the recent cards is because of seeing them on isotropic.  But as far as dominion hitting the game table - its chances are limited.  This is for a few reasons:

1)  Simple storage solution - Unless I can take the game with me places - it won't get played.  I've managed to squeeze everything into one box - so this problem is solved, but there is no way I can squeeze in another expansion.
2)  It is a chore to setup, once you are spoiled with Isotropic, digging out a random set of kingdom cards is a pain.  It is something I think about while I'm putting my games into my game bag for an upcoming gaming opportunity.
3)  It is a game that my more serious gamer friends, fellow SWCCG and LOTRCCG veterans, are discouraged to play against me, because I have so much more experience playing it thanks to isotropic.  They would rather play other games where the playing field is more level (like Seven Wonders or Puerto Rico).  Dominion mostly hits my game table at family functions with my brother-in-laws, but even then it is competing against games like Stone Age, Power Grid, or Agricola.

So, for these reasons, and pending closure of Isotropic for a pay site - I could see myself leaving Dominion altogether. 

I'm curious whats going to come out of all this, I've been keeping my eye on these forums just to catch a whiff of what is coming.  Lack of answers is frustrating, but I understand why things need to be close to the chest.

Out of curiosity, which incarnation of the SWCCG are you referring to?

My guess is the Decipher version (Star Wars Customizable Card Game), since he also mentioned and LotR game (and once again, I'm assuming he's referring to the Decipher version and not the earlier Middle Earth game, or the more recent FFG LCG), and there was a lot of cross-over between the player bases of those games since they were both Decipher products.  That, and I think the Decipher version is more likely to be referred to as serious compared to the Wizards version, and the "lesser" Decipher versions (Young Jedi and Jedi Knights).

I loved the Decipher game (and still do, I play casually with virtually cards every now and then and follow the current player developments), and I'm glad to see there are fans of that game here.  Or maybe that's just wishful thinking.  The Wizards game was interesting aspects, but I found it lacking over all.  And too much dice!

The Decipher one is the only one I played (I think I still have cards... somewhere but haven't played in like 10 years).
I saw the Wizards and it was... unappealing.

[Nitsuj]

Yes, I'm referring to the Star Wars CCG released by Decipher.  Lord of the Rings TCG was also what I was referring to.  I have not played SWCCG since 2006, the game just got too big in scope for me to keep up with.  I still visit the PC forums though, as "Nitsuj"

I find that dominion is a very popular game amongst the SWCCG crowd.  In fact, there are a lot of isotropic players that are still current SWCCG players - its cool to run into them in the lobby.

You can play LOTR online now, it looks pretty slick, and may fill the hole I'm gaining with Isotropic's pending shut-down.

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr

[GendoIkari]

You can play LOTR online now, it looks pretty slick, and may fill the hole I'm gaining with Isotropic's pending shut-down.

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr

You have just made me so happy!!! I played a lot of LOTR when it came out; it's the only game I've ever spent serious money on. I bought insane amounts of cards from the first 2 blocks. As time went on, and they started changing more things, especially after ROTK was over with, interest (and people to play with) died out.

[sherwinpr]

The Decipher one is the only one I played (I think I still have cards... somewhere but haven't played in like 10 years).
I saw the Wizards and it was... unappealing.
[/quote]

Thinking back, it was actually pretty bad, but the most fun we ever had with it was.  But I only tried the base set for about a month or so (and maybe one of the expansions, but I don't think so), and perhaps it became a bit stronger afterward, but I still doubt it would have appealed to me much.  The fond memories I do have of the game were when we modified the rules to allow for some multiplayer shenanigans, haha.

Yes, I'm referring to the Star Wars CCG released by Decipher.  Lord of the Rings TCG was also what I was referring to.  I have not played SWCCG since 2006, the game just got too big in scope for me to keep up with.  I still visit the PC forums though, as "Nitsuj"

I find that dominion is a very popular game amongst the SWCCG crowd.  In fact, there are a lot of isotropic players that are still current SWCCG players - its cool to run into them in the lobby.

You can play LOTR online now, it looks pretty slick, and may fill the hole I'm gaining with Isotropic's pending shut-down.

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr

I've run into at least one active player on isotropic, so that's pretty neat.

Has anyone tried "The Cube", it might be a happy medium between classic SW:CCG and self-contained style Dominion play.  It's a fixed sealed environment (with some virtual cards) for Star Wars.  I built a Cube and had a lot of fun with it with friends who used to play the game.

[barsooma]

Crossposting this from BGG:

riogames wrote:
Just to clarify things on this issue if I can at this point. Over the past two years, RGG has been approached by a number of people asking to do a "casual" and free app for Dominion. In such cases, we have usually said yes with the stipulation that once the "official" Dominion app became available that the free app would be removed. Cory is one of those who asked and, as with others, we gave him permission to develop a free Dominion app, which I understand he has finished. I admit some surprise as it has been months since we last spoke and I had assumed he had decided not to complete the app. In any case, as long as it is free, it is allowed, at least for a few weeks until the licensed app becomes available.

I am sorry if there has been any confusion regarding this.

Thanks

Jay
RGG

[pst]

I feel somewhat like the opposite happened to me. While I loved Dominion before I found Iso, I don't have enough people to regularly play it with IRL to justify buying all the expansions. However, I felt somewhat obligated after sinking hundreds of hours into the online game to go out an spend some disposable income on so far most of the expansions. If I pay for an online version, I probably don't feel the same pressure to gobble up expansions.

Similar for me. I had Dominion and played it once in a while. After discovering it for real on Isotropic I bought all expansions in stock last year for myself, as well as an extra Cornucopia for friends I sometimes play with so as to get more variation when playing with them. None of that would have happened without Isotropic (and of course also not without Dominion being such a good game).

The sets I bought for myself last year are still wrapped in plastic, but I like having them.

[cprloe]

The Touch Arcade forums are listing the official Dominion Iphone app as being released later this week.  Has anyone seen confirmation of that from Rio Grande Games?

http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=118476

[blueblimp]

The Touch Arcade forums are listing the official Dominion Iphone app as being released later this week.  Has anyone seen confirmation of that from Rio Grande Games?

http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=118476

Interesting find. So maybe the isotropocalypse is this week.

[DrHades]

Let's just hope the app would be great and that Iso going down doesn't mean DominionStrategy going down

[Kirian]

Let's just hope the app would be great and that Iso going down doesn't mean DominionStrategy going down

I'm sure DS won't go down, but CR will be less useful for quite a while.  I'm hopeful but not optimistic that the app will have some sort of logging system.  The fact that Jay's earlier note suggested it will be browser-playable suggests that it'll at least be possible.

[Ozle]

Its bound to have a knock on effect on DS, but not a terminal one I reckon. Especially as all the simulator people are to test out new theorys and such,

[theory]

CouncilRoom will be hugely affected, naturally, by the kind of logs outputted.  It could be better than Isotropic, and it could also be worse.

DS is also vulnerable to whether it outputs good logs, since it's hard to facilitate discussion without examples.  And if you assume that each expansion will cost additional, then the random-from-all-expansions implicit assumption that we have taken for granted may no longer be true.

f.DS depends on how much of the community migrates over.  Clearly a lot will go away once it's no longer free, but there should also be a significant influx of new players that can at last play an official version (and on their phones).

[chogg]

CouncilRoom will be hugely affected, naturally, by the kind of logs outputted.  It could be better than Isotropic, and it could also be worse.

I love isotropic, but my biggest gripe is that the logs don't let you fully reconstruct the game.  (You play a Smithy and draw three cards -- which three cards?!)

It clearly isn't an issue of preventing the opponent from seeing private information: already, the game logs show e.g. what each player draws at the end of their turn.

Full game reconstruction is a minimum standard I think we should ask of the logs.  I've been waiting for the official app and assuming it will offer this feature.  If not, I think we should keep bugging them until they put it in. 

[DrHades]

...And if you assume that each expansion will cost additional...

You really think that will be the case? I was assuming that it would be "base for free" and then everything for one price. How would the playing system work? You would create tables for specific expansions and only players who paid for them could play? It's possible though...

If so, I would definitely pay for Intrique, Seaside, Prosperity and Cornucopia, maybe Base, but I would gladly pass on Hinterlands, Alchemy and Promos

[Kirian]

And if you assume that each expansion will cost additional...

I have to agree with DrHades, I don't think this would be possible; matchmaking would be a hell.  It would, however, give me one more reason not to purchase.

Clearly a lot will go away once it's no longer free...

I don't know about that.  I suspect the people who frequent the forum are the true die-hards who are likely willing to pay at a reasonable price point... barring, of course, non-financial reasons to pass on it.

But without logs, f.DS will have troubles as well, as there would be no examples to look at.

I think the absence of logs would be a purchase-killer for me, as would the absence of a rating system.

[DrHades]

And if you assume that each expansion will cost additional...

I have to agree with DrHades, I don't think this would be possible; matchmaking would be a hell.  It would, however, give me one more reason not to purchase.

Clearly a lot will go away once it's no longer free...

I don't know about that.  I suspect the people who frequent the forum are the true die-hards who are likely willing to pay at a reasonable price point... barring, of course, non-financial reasons to pass on it.

But without logs, f.DS will have troubles as well, as there would be no examples to look at.

I think the absence of logs would be a purchase-killer for me, as would the absence of a rating system.

Absence of log would be pain in the ass  Absence of a rating system is just nonsence, there definitely will be a rating system.

[Captain_Frisk]

Absence of log would be pain in the ass  Absence of a rating system is just nonsence, there definitely will be a rating system.

The Ascension app on ipad is an AMAZING implementation of a less than amazing game, and it offers no logs, no rankings, the best you can get is your personal record.  Short of the developers coming out of the woodwork and answering questions, I think its unlikely to assume that any of the features that we'd like will be implemented.

I'm optimistic that it will at least be better than the BSW implementation, which was still good enough for me to play 1000+ games, but I have to say that like the others here, without a leaderboard for competition, and game logs for analysis, I may lose interest.

[DrHades]

Absence of log would be pain in the ass  Absence of a rating system is just nonsence, there definitely will be a rating system.

The Ascension app on ipad is an AMAZING implementation of a less than amazing game, and it offers no logs, no rankings, the best you can get is your personal record.  Short of the developers coming out of the woodwork and answering questions, I think its unlikely to assume that any of the features that we'd like will be implemented.

I'm optimistic that it will at least be better than the BSW implementation, which was still good enough for me to play 1000+ games, but I have to say that like the others here, without a leaderboard for competition, and game logs for analysis, I may lose interest.

Well the AI would be just very simple to learn the basics, so I assume that the app would be primary for multiplayer...and what the hell is more important for multiplayer than rating?

[ackack]

Well the AI would be just very simple to learn the basics, so I assume that the app would be primary for multiplayer...and what the hell is more important for multiplayer than rating?

I would say being able to actually play the game against other people is more important. While I tend to agree that a lot of people here are driven by the urge to sit atop a leaderboard, I could also imagine that there's a potentially large casual fanbase that doesn't care at all that would be perfectly happy to just play the game.

We'll see how the final product turns out. I'm fairly pessimistic about this sort of thing but who knows, maybe it will still be appealing to the hardcore fans. The BGG thread mentioning that user-created AIs may be possible is promising.

[rrenaud]

logs + elbow grease -> leaderboard.

even if it's unofficial.

[theory]

Yeah, rrenaud made a really nice leaderboard for RFTG back in its heyday.

[Kirian]

Well the AI would be just very simple to learn the basics, so I assume that the app would be primary for multiplayer...and what the hell is more important for multiplayer than rating?

I would say being able to actually play the game against other people is more important. While I tend to agree that a lot of people here are driven by the urge to sit atop a leaderboard, I could also imagine that there's a potentially large casual fanbase that doesn't care at all that would be perfectly happy to just play the game.

Sure, but I can happily play the game against people near me with physical cards, and spend my online time playing something else.

I have no interest in topping the charts (I doubt I ever will crack level 35 or its equivalent in the new system), but there's something inherently interesting about being able to see who's likely to be better or worse than you, and who you should really take advice from (for instance:  probably not me!)

[blueblimp]

While I tend to agree that a lot of people here are driven by the urge to sit atop a leaderboard, I could also imagine that there's a potentially large casual fanbase that doesn't care at all that would be perfectly happy to just play the game.

In my opinion, the reason a ranking system is important is to have good match-making, not for a leaderboard. A leaderboard is nice, of course, but I don't care that much since I'm nowhere near the top of it. I do care a lot about not playing matches where one player is way, way better than the other. It's just not fun.

The official app could one-up isotropic by implementing a better auto-match system.

[LastFootnote]

And if you assume that each expansion will cost additional, then the random-from-all-expansions implicit assumption that we have taken for granted may no longer be true.

I really hope this is the case. I'm mighty sick of random-from-all-expansions. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the default game mode will be 10 cards chosen from two or three sets. It'd be nice to see cards like Scout have some actual utility again.

[ftl]

The official app could one-up isotropic by implementing a better auto-match system.

True that. There are definitely ways of combining ranking and matchmaking that make for an awesome gaming experience. Nothing wrong with just randomly selecting an opponent from available ones like Isotropic does, though

I really hope this is the case. I'm mighty sick of random-from-all-expansions. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the default game mode will be 10 cards chosen from two or three sets. It'd be nice to see cards like Scout have some actual utility again.

I would be a fan of a mode where it's random-from-all-sets, but weighted randomness, so that on average a game will have something like a 4-3-2-1 split between four expansions or something. Still random-from-all-sets, but weighted so that cards from a given set are more likely to appear together.

Anyhow, something like that seems unlikely. But hey, maybe they will give us a whole bunch of 'options' to customize automatching. Always possible, and no reason not to speculate wildly

[chogg]

I love isotropic, but my biggest gripe is that the logs don't let you fully reconstruct the game.  (You play a Smithy and draw three cards -- which three cards?!)

It clearly isn't an issue of preventing the opponent from seeing private information: already, the game logs show e.g. what each player draws at the end of their turn.

Full game reconstruction is a minimum standard I think we should ask of the logs.  I've been waiting for the official app and assuming it will offer this feature.  If not, I think we should keep bugging them until they put it in. 

Another thing I just remembered: for logs with Masquerade on the board, it doesn't tell you what cards were passed.  This means that it's generally impossible even to know the deck composition as a function of turn.

Usually cards enter the deck by "gaining", and leave it by "trashing".  I think Isotropic does well tracking both of those in every case.  But "passing" is an added mechanism whereby cards both enter and leave the deck, and Isotropic doesn't remember what gets passed.

I think "Deck composition as a function of turn" is potentially a very good visualization of a game.  I really hope the official app makes it possible for all games.  And if not, it's worth lobbying for!

[Kirian]

Anyhow, something like that seems unlikely. But hey, maybe they will give us a whole bunch of 'options' to customize automatching. Always possible, and no reason not to speculate wildly

Indeed!  I think we should continue speculating wildly until RGG sees fit to tell us a damn thing.

[cprloe]

Rio Grande Games and Donald V. certainly don't owe us anything, but it is horrible business judgment to refuse to provide us any information about the features and the expected release date of the official iPhone app.  Dominion is one of the most popular and well received games of the last 5 years and has a large customer base.  You would think that RGG would see the wisdom of giving us more details about the app (AI, multiplayer, expansions, etc.) and the anticipated release date.  The only information we have received is a cryptic statement last month that its release is coming in the near future.  No list of features.  No screenshots.  Not even an identification of who the developer is.

The way this has been handled makes me pessimistic about how RGG and the developer will respond to customer feedback once the app is finally released and how forthcoming they will be about future plans to improve the app and release additional expansions.

[Kirian]

Rio Grande Games and Donald V. certainly don't owe us anything, but it is horrible business judgment to refuse to provide us any information about the features and the expected release date of the official iPhone app.  Dominion is one of the most popular and well received games of the last 5 years and has a large customer base.  You would think that RGG would see the wisdom of giving us more details about the app (AI, multiplayer, expansions, etc.) and the anticipated release date.  The only information we have received is a cryptic statement last month that its release is coming in the near future.  No list of features.  No screenshots.  Not even an identification of who the developer is.

The way this has been handled makes me pessimistic about how RGG and the developer will respond to customer feedback once the app is finally released and how forthcoming they will be about future plans to improve the app and release additional expansions.

I once wrote and then deleted a long rant along these lines--I don't remember if it was this thread or another.  You've been a lot more succinct than I was.

I want to add one thing specifically, which is that all indications are that DXV himself is not being allowed to tell us anything.  My entire beef therefore lies with RGG and Jay.  Dominion is basically their flagship product right now--based on the fact that the only RGG game I've seen in non-gaming stores is Dominion (compare with Mayfair having Catan in stores).  Leaving a whole bunch of people hanging like this is terrible business sense, and Jay never struck me as having bad business sense.

[DrHades]

Dominion is basically their flagship product right now--based on the fact that the only RGG game I've seen in non-gaming stores is Dominion (compare with Mayfair having Catan in stores).

You never saw Carcassonne in a store? Where do you live? 

[jsh357]

Dominion is basically their flagship product right now--based on the fact that the only RGG game I've seen in non-gaming stores is Dominion (compare with Mayfair having Catan in stores).

You never saw Carcassonne in a store? Where do you live? 

I have also never seen Carcassone in a store not entirely focused on board games and such.  I've seen Dominion though (very rarely).

[barsooma]

Rio Grande Games and Donald V. certainly don't owe us anything, but it is horrible business judgment to refuse to provide us any information about the features and the expected release date of the official iPhone app.  Dominion is one of the most popular and well received games of the last 5 years and has a large customer base.  You would think that RGG would see the wisdom of giving us more details about the app (AI, multiplayer, expansions, etc.) and the anticipated release date.  The only information we have received is a cryptic statement last month that its release is coming in the near future.  No list of features.  No screenshots.  Not even an identification of who the developer is.

The way this has been handled makes me pessimistic about how RGG and the developer will respond to customer feedback once the app is finally released and how forthcoming they will be about future plans to improve the app and release additional expansions.

I once wrote and then deleted a long rant along these lines--I don't remember if it was this thread or another.  You've been a lot more succinct than I was.

I want to add one thing specifically, which is that all indications are that DXV himself is not being allowed to tell us anything.  My entire beef therefore lies with RGG and Jay.  Dominion is basically their flagship product right now--based on the fact that the only RGG game I've seen in non-gaming stores is Dominion (compare with Mayfair having Catan in stores).  Leaving a whole bunch of people hanging like this is terrible business sense, and Jay never struck me as having bad business sense.

It does make good business sense in one scenario....
If they know that the game is gonna suck in many ways that will piss off the isotropic fanbase.
In that case it makes perfect sense to keep it under wraps so the bad mouthing doesn't precede the actual release and dissuade other potential buyers.

[LastFootnote]

It does make good business sense in one scenario....
If they know that the game is gonna suck in many ways that will piss off the isotropic fanbase.
In that case it makes perfect sense to keep it under wraps so the bad mouthing doesn't precede the actual release and dissuade other potential buyers.

I think we have a winner here!

[blueblimp]

Rio Grande Games and Donald V. certainly don't owe us anything, but it is horrible business judgment to refuse to provide us any information about the features and the expected release date of the official iPhone app.  Dominion is one of the most popular and well received games of the last 5 years and has a large customer base.  You would think that RGG would see the wisdom of giving us more details about the app (AI, multiplayer, expansions, etc.) and the anticipated release date.  The only information we have received is a cryptic statement last month that its release is coming in the near future.  No list of features.  No screenshots.  Not even an identification of who the developer is.

The way this has been handled makes me pessimistic about how RGG and the developer will respond to customer feedback once the app is finally released and how forthcoming they will be about future plans to improve the app and release additional expansions.

I once wrote and then deleted a long rant along these lines--I don't remember if it was this thread or another.  You've been a lot more succinct than I was.

I want to add one thing specifically, which is that all indications are that DXV himself is not being allowed to tell us anything.  My entire beef therefore lies with RGG and Jay.  Dominion is basically their flagship product right now--based on the fact that the only RGG game I've seen in non-gaming stores is Dominion (compare with Mayfair having Catan in stores).  Leaving a whole bunch of people hanging like this is terrible business sense, and Jay never struck me as having bad business sense.

It does make good business sense in one scenario....
If they know that the game is gonna suck in many ways that will piss off the isotropic fanbase.
In that case it makes perfect sense to keep it under wraps so the bad mouthing doesn't precede the actual release and dissuade other potential buyers.

Yeah, this is the same reason Apple avoids announcing products before they're ready to be sold, because they are so bad that if people knew about them ahead of time, they would never buy them.

Or wait, maybe it's that they want to generate interest in the app when it's actually available to buy.

[lympi]

Yeah, this is the same reason Apple avoids announcing products before they're ready to be sold, because they are so bad that if people knew about them ahead of time, they would never buy them.

Or wait, maybe it's that they want to generate interest in the app when it's actually available to buy.

If I were making an Apple analogy, I would actually go the other way.

Apple is notoriously secretive, unless they don't have an existing product on the market. The original iPhone, for example, was announced months before it was released, as Apple did not have a phone in the market yet, so they wouldn't be hurting sales of their existing phone.

RGG has no Dominion app for sale right now. So following Apple Business Practices™ they have nothing to lose by whetting our appetites ahead of time. If anything, maybe telling us anything at all would stop a couple people from buying that Gundabad nonsense.

I am not making an Apple analogy, however. So I'm just going to continue remaining cautiously optimistic that the official app doesn't suck, since I have nothing else to go on.

[Captain_Frisk]

Yeah, this is the same reason Apple avoids announcing products before they're ready to be sold, because they are so bad that if people knew about them ahead of time, they would never buy them.

Or wait, maybe it's that they want to generate interest in the app when it's actually available to buy.

That's a pretty decent parallel. 

Another one could be to recent design changes by facebook, google reader, etc.  No matter how good it is (and i'm not going to pass judgement on facebook design changes to avoid flamewars), it will almost certainly be different.  Some people will like it, others won't, and the people who won't will be louder on the internet.

Now I think that DougZ has done an amazing job on isotropic.  It's not "pretty", but it suits this communities (hard core dominion players) needs very well.  It has a leaderboard, log exports for parsing, runs well on everything than touch devices where card re-ordering doesn't work.  (Unless he's changed that?).  It's fast, and because we all have 100% of the cards memorized, provides everything we need to play. 

Even if everything else was the same, the commercial app will almost certainly cost money.  That difference alone will cause some people to complain (isotropic had all of the same stuff and was free, why should I pay money for this?!?!?!)  It will probably use the official card art.  Some of us (myself included) will probably not recognize the cards (I haven't opened my physical copies of cornucopia or hinterlands), and might gripe about that.

So, I think I can understand keeping it under wraps. 

That said, I suspect that the radio silence is more akin to review embargos of games or movies prior to their release date, and that we're going to dissappointed.

I feel like as a developer of a replacement system, I'd want to engage the hardcore-extremely vocal community to ensure that I don't fracture my fanbase.  See http://www.nowgamer.com/features/1065904/counterstrike_global_offensive_valve_interview.html for an interesting interview regarding the counterstrike beta, which attempts to address the concerns of both groups of CS players (those that prefer old skool 1.6 vs. CS:Source)

Maybe Jay already has, and REDACTED just keeping his mouth shut.

[WanderingWinder]

I'm amused that I'm the fanbase. I can neither confirm nor deny having been reached out to, as if (hypothetically) I had, and there were some kind of NDA in place, then I wouldn't be allowed to say, though I wouldn't want to lie by saying no, and if I haven't been reached out to, then I can't say that either, as otherwise, my not saying anything in the other case would be tacit to saying something.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm amused that I'm the fanbase.

Well, when someone else wins 5,000 games and has his own competing youtube channel, i'll go back and edit the post

Edit: And now I have.

[Kirian]

I'm amused that I'm the fanbase. I can neither confirm nor deny having been reached out to, as if (hypothetically) I had, and there were some kind of NDA in place, then I wouldn't be allowed to say, though I wouldn't want to lie by saying no, and if I haven't been reached out to, then I can't say that either, as otherwise, my not saying anything in the other case would be tacit to saying something.

You should run for office.

Dominion is basically their flagship product right now--based on the fact that the only RGG game I've seen in non-gaming stores is Dominion (compare with Mayfair having Catan in stores).

You never saw Carcassonne in a store? Where do you live? 

I meant outside gaming-focused stores.  I've seen Catan, Dominion, and Ticket to Ride in bookstores, but I've never seen another Mayfair, RGG or DOW game in a non-gaming store.

[chwhite]

I'm amused that I'm the fanbase. I can neither confirm nor deny having been reached out to, as if (hypothetically) I had, and there were some kind of NDA in place, then I wouldn't be allowed to say, though I wouldn't want to lie by saying no, and if I haven't been reached out to, then I can't say that either, as otherwise, my not saying anything in the other case would be tacit to saying something.

You should run for office.

Dominion is basically their flagship product right now--based on the fact that the only RGG game I've seen in non-gaming stores is Dominion (compare with Mayfair having Catan in stores).

You never saw Carcassonne in a store? Where do you live? 

I meant outside gaming-focused stores.  I've seen Catan, Dominion, and Ticket to Ride in bookstores, but I've never seen another Mayfair, RGG or DOW game in a non-gaming store.

I've seen Agricola at Barnes & Noble.  I guess that's Z-man, though.

[WanderingWinder]

I've seen I think all of those at a local Barnes&Noble. Maybe I just have an awesome B&N?

[DStu]

Yeah, this is the same reason Apple avoids announcing products before they're ready to be sold, because they are so bad that if people knew about them ahead of time, they would never buy them.

Or wait, maybe it's that they want to generate interest in the app when it's actually available to buy.

Apple lol. If it would be like Apple someone would have "forgotten" the app half a year ago in some bar...

[blueblimp]

Yeah, this is the same reason Apple avoids announcing products before they're ready to be sold, because they are so bad that if people knew about them ahead of time, they would never buy them.

Or wait, maybe it's that they want to generate interest in the app when it's actually available to buy.

Apple lol. If it would be like Apple someone would have "forgotten" the app half a year ago in some bar...

I gather you use Android. =P

[blueblimp]

The Touch Arcade forums are listing the official Dominion Iphone app as being released later this week.  Has anyone seen confirmation of that from Rio Grande Games?

http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=118476

Given that no official app appears to have come out, and that the thread has been updated and no longer lists Dominion, AND given that the imitation app was updated on Feb 15th (which might explain why Dominion was in the list), looks like it was a false alarm.