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Author Topic: Creating Dominion  (Read 207070 times)

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singletee

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #475 on: August 26, 2016, 01:53:13 pm »
0

$3/month ($36 a year, probably cheaper if you buy in bulk) online doesn't sound that bad to me. Why are so many people complaining?
Okay, how about you go buy a house from someone, pay off your mortgage ... and then the seller announces that you have to pay rent.

We have already paid. We have already paid a LOT of money. And now we have to pay more? Screw that.

You realize this is not the analogy, right?

It's more like, you bought rights to live in a house from someone who was maintaining that house's existence, that someone stopped maintaining its existence, then someone else created a new house across the street (or maybe even in the same lot works better in the analogy).
No. DXV-RGG owned a plot of land. They let Goko-MF build a house there and encouraged them to sell me the house. Then they summarily revoked their deal with Goko-MF and told me I'd have to pay rent to their new stooges SS in order to carry on living in the house they encouraged me to buy. They also refuse to allow anyone else (such as Isotropic) to build a house, anywhere, so that if I want to live in a house I am forced to suck it up and pay the rent. This is some of the most disgusting behaviour I have seen from a games company, and games companies are not exactly known for being moral paragons.

Bolded text is where you are wrong. When you buy a house you are actually buying ownership of the property. When you bought Dominion Online, what you bought was the privilege of using the service for as long as Goko offered it. Not only was it made perfectly clear in the terms of service, it is the standard procedure for online services. Furthermore it shouldn't take too much thinking to figure out that there is no way a company is going to offer what you imagined they were offering, namely the eternal existence of their service and your eternal ability to access it.

chrisjwmartin

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #476 on: August 26, 2016, 01:55:33 pm »
0

They are not the same house.
The house is "playing Dominion". It is the same house. And most importantly they're on the same land, and DXV-RGG refuse to allow anyone else to build houses, so if you want to be an ultra-pedant and read it as "the only house permitted to be in existence" then go ahead.

And, really, rented, not sold.  And, the deal was  time-capped in the first place.
It was not time-capped. If DXV-RGG had extended MF then I wouldn't have suddenly had to re-buy everything. If DXV-RGG had kept MF as the providers for another twenty years, I would have still been able to play with all my sets for those twenty years. It is not MF's fault that they were stiffed by the greed of DXV-RGG. So no: to say that it was time-capped is a lie.
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chrisjwmartin

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #477 on: August 26, 2016, 01:57:33 pm »
0

Bolded text is where you are wrong. When you buy a house you are actually buying ownership of the property. When you bought Dominion Online, what you bought was the privilege of using the service for as long as Goko offered it. Not only was it made perfectly clear in the terms of service, it is the standard procedure for online services. Furthermore it shouldn't take too much thinking to figure out that there is no way a company is going to offer what you imagined they were offering, namely the eternal existence of their service and your eternal ability to access it.
If MF had been extended by DXV-RGG, I would not have had to suddenly re-buy the expansions. It is not unreasonable to expect that the purchase should last for as long as there is an official Dominion service, especially given that they refuse to let other services exist. If there stopped being an official Dominion service then it would be fine for the purchase to expire. But that is not what the situation is.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #478 on: August 26, 2016, 02:06:05 pm »
0

They are not the same house.
The house is "playing Dominion". It is the same house. And most importantly they're on the same land, and DXV-RGG refuse to allow anyone else to build houses, so if you want to be an ultra-pedant and read it as "the only house permitted to be in existence" then go ahead.

That's... not a house.  "playing Dominion" would be like.. "living" in your analogy.

And, really, rented, not sold.  And, the deal was  time-capped in the first place.
It was not time-capped. If DXV-RGG had extended MF then I wouldn't have suddenly had to re-buy everything. If DXV-RGG had kept MF as the providers for another twenty years, I would have still been able to play with all my sets for those twenty years. It is not MF's fault that they were stiffed by the greed of DXV-RGG. So no: to say that it was time-capped is a lie.
[/quote]

The rights were licensed for a specific duration of time.  That's just, like, a fact.  Yes they could have not been, but I'm not sure that would be a good, or in any way reasonable, idea. 

Again I'm at one of these points where I can't tell if this is trolling or a serious conversation.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #479 on: August 26, 2016, 02:07:16 pm »
+1

the greed of DXV-RGG.

No, they wanted to change providers because Making Fun had created a terrible product.  That's not greed, that's customer service.

I'm not sure if you're a troll or just a raging asshole.
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chrisjwmartin

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #480 on: August 26, 2016, 02:12:08 pm »
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Again I'm at one of these points where I can't tell if this is trolling or a serious conversation.
I'm not sure if you're a troll or just a raging asshole.
Oh of course, anyone who disagrees with you is "trolling". Because your opinions are so perfect, pre-ordained by the gods, that the only conceivable reason anyone could have for disagreeing with them is malice.

MF's product is not terrible, it's fine. It functions perfectly adequately and they have a responsive customer support team.

The rights that I bought were not time-capped. You don't seem to understand what "time-capped" means. It means there was a CAP on the TIME. When was the cap? Please tell me exactly where I agreed to anything where I was told the date on which the cap would fall? Let me tell you, I am so excited to hear all about this mystical thing that never happened.

No, what happened is that DXV-RGG were greedy. They already took our money once (or twice if you count the physical copies), but that wasn't enough, and so now they want to take our money again.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #481 on: August 26, 2016, 02:37:01 pm »
0

The rights that I bought were not time-capped. You don't seem to understand what "time-capped" means. It means there was a CAP on the TIME. When was the cap? Please tell me exactly where I agreed to anything where I was told the date on which the cap would fall?

You weren't told the date, but you agreed that Making Fun can close your account at any time for any reason or no reason at all.
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chrisjwmartin

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #482 on: August 26, 2016, 02:53:07 pm »
0

You weren't told the date, but you agreed that Making Fun can close your account at any time for any reason or no reason at all.
So we're agreed, there was no cap and it was a lie to say that there was.

If on the 26th of August I take out a month's subscription to, say, Spotify, there is a cap: it will expire on the 25th of September. In addition, Spotify can close my account at any time yadda yadda, which is nothing to do with whether there's a cap.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #483 on: August 26, 2016, 02:56:20 pm »
0

You weren't told the date, but you agreed that Making Fun can close your account at any time for any reason or no reason at all.
So we're agreed, there was no cap and it was a lie to say that there was.

If on the 26th of August I take out a month's subscription to, say, Spotify, there is a cap: it will expire on the 25th of September. In addition, Spotify can close my account at any time yadda yadda, which is nothing to do with whether there's a cap.

The deal Witherweaver is referring to is the deal you mentioned ("Then they summarily revoked their deal with Goko-MF") which was in fact time-capped.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #484 on: August 26, 2016, 02:59:00 pm »
0

Again I'm at one of these points where I can't tell if this is trolling or a serious conversation.
I'm not sure if you're a troll or just a raging asshole.
Oh of course, anyone who disagrees with you is "trolling". Because your opinions are so perfect, pre-ordained by the gods, that the only conceivable reason anyone could have for disagreeing with them is malice.

MF's product is not terrible, it's fine. It functions perfectly adequately and they have a responsive customer support team.

The rights that I bought were not time-capped. You don't seem to understand what "time-capped" means. It means there was a CAP on the TIME. When was the cap? Please tell me exactly where I agreed to anything where I was told the date on which the cap would fall? Let me tell you, I am so excited to hear all about this mystical thing that never happened.

No, what happened is that DXV-RGG were greedy. They already took our money once (or twice if you count the physical copies), but that wasn't enough, and so now they want to take our money again.

No, you seem to be trolling because you're saying a bunch of absurd things that are a little difficult to imagine a real person honestly believing.

And aside from that, also trying to be instigative.  You can disagree with people and be civil.

The time cap was the time for when MF had the rights to Dominion.  I don't know the details but surely it was written in some legal document before anything was officially signed.  MF was maybe not forthcoming with that information (possibly RGG as well, I dunno), and you can probably make an argument that they should have been.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #485 on: August 26, 2016, 03:05:08 pm »
+6

First off, chris entitled to be upset. I think there will be more people who feel cheated as time goes on, and we're going to hear a lot more complaints. Me, personally, I'm happy about the change. But, we shouldn't go calling someone an asshole because they aren't happy with the new system.

Chris, are you aware that you can get an offline version with every expansion you own?

Anyway, licenses are very common. Usually, the license gets extended and we don't see change. But, a lot of time licenses change hands. In this case, it wasn't feasible for the new license holder to honor MF's agreement. As it stands, we never had an agreement with DXV or RGG, just MF.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #486 on: August 26, 2016, 03:07:29 pm »
+3

Also something of note, goko transferred the license to MF. Neither DXV nor RGG agreed to having MF make the game.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #487 on: August 26, 2016, 03:16:52 pm »
+1

Greedy is not a good term, here.  Everyone involved should be wanting to make money, right?  I think what is meant is trying to get money from the customers through dishonest business practices.  And I don't think that's what happened here.   I mean, I don't know that, but I don't really have reason to believe that it is.  I think it's more, like, the companies (Goko, and to a maybe arguable extent Making Fun) did not succeed in their goals.
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chrisjwmartin

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #488 on: August 26, 2016, 03:17:39 pm »
0

First off, chris entitled to be upset. I think there will be more people who feel cheated as time goes on, and we're going to hear a lot more complaints. Me, personally, I'm happy about the change. But, we shouldn't go calling someone an asshole because they aren't happy with the new system.
Thank you!

Chris, are you aware that you can get an offline version with every expansion you own?
I am, but I don't see the point of that - the point is to play against other people.

Anyway, licenses are very common. Usually, the license gets extended and we don't see change. But, a lot of time licenses change hands. In this case, it wasn't feasible for the new license holder to honor MF's agreement. As it stands, we never had an agreement with DXV or RGG, just MF.
Do you really not see how open to abuse that is? DXV-RGG have already made their money from me twice - once when I bought all the card expansions, and once when I bought all the online expansions. That's okay - the online version was a separate piece of work, though none of it was done by DXV-RGG, they were just taking money for no effort. In what possible world is it fair for them to charge me a third time?

If they opened up the system and allowed anyone to make a Dominion game so long as they paid an up-front fee, and then let the suppliers charge what they liked, it would be different. I wouldn't mind the charge if it all went to SS and I had the option of staying with MF if I preferred. But DXV-RGG are playing us for fools, and it is so frustrating that all these people are lying here and taking it.

In a few years' time, DXV-RGG will announce that the subscription model has failed and they're going back to purchasing expansions - and we will have to purchase all the expansions all over again. And these exact same fanbois will nod their heads happily and denounce anyone who criticises this fraud as "trolls".
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Witherweaver

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #489 on: August 26, 2016, 03:31:26 pm »
0

Well, not having rights locked could have indeed turned out better (and many people felt that well when Isotropic Dominion was shutting down, I think). 
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #490 on: August 26, 2016, 03:36:57 pm »
+11

DXV and RGG already got money from the Goko and MF purchases. Are they going to refund me that money? No. They are going to keep it and demand more.
We are giving up more money than we ever got, total, to get people that one year of the new system (or offline sets). [The actual amount depends on how popular the game is in the first year of the new system, but this seems assured.] [And we aren't paying the money, we are just receiving less. I am super accurate guy.]

When we got the new people, I felt like we could just give up all the money we'd made so far, to pay for the existing customers on the new system. Maybe we could have managed this with savvy negotiating. We did not manage it. The key problem was that the amount we were paid was a small fraction of the amount taken in. We somehow did not realize this until we'd already told MF we were done with them.

For me online Dominion has just utterly sucked from the start. It has been a ton of work, has eaten up lots of time both on doing that work and getting yelled at by unhappy customers, and has paid worse than minimum wage.

Goko and MF could never have actually given anyone Dominion past the point at which my contract with RGG expired; RGG couldn't give them rights RGG didn't have. And they didn't have an infinite contract with RGG either, as you can see from how we have new guys as of 2017.

I don't want to get sued by even an apparent non-entity like Goko, so I will not say anyone promised anything. I bet in the fine print MF just sells funny money and that's it; enjoy pretending to spend it. It sucks that people feel like they were promised an everlasting online version of my game, by these people I didn't hire and don't have a contract with. I thought I could nevertheless keep this promise these strangers made, but I could not.
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Donald X.

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #491 on: August 26, 2016, 03:41:49 pm »
+9

In a few years' time, DXV-RGG will announce that the subscription model has failed and they're going back to purchasing expansions - and we will have to purchase all the expansions all over again. And these exact same fanbois will nod their heads happily and denounce anyone who criticises this fraud as "trolls".
If the subscription model fails, no-one who bought into it is ever owed anything, because it's a subscription! They buy a year of Dominion, they get a year of Dominion. The company, like some kind of honest entity, won't sell anyone subscriptions past where their contract ends.

For me, this is a significant appeal of subscriptions. If the model failed, people would be sad that Dominion was going away, but no-one would feel like they were owed money.

Similarly anyone who buys the new offline version still has it later; they bought it, they have it.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #492 on: August 26, 2016, 03:55:55 pm »
+4

There is no doubt in my mind that dxv and rgg have acted with absolute honesty and integrity throughout this whole mess.  Yes, the circumstances suck, but they have done their utmost to ensure the existence of a service to all that is of the quality that dominion deserves.  Including by being willing to lose out quite a lot during a migration period that was always going to happen eventually (because mf would eventually have run out of new customers and folded, as much as anything else), just to make customers, who actually weren't contractually owed anything, as happy as was possible in the circumstances.

It's probably fair to say that MF has acted with honesty and integrity throughout as well, it's just a shame that they werent capable of producing a sufficiently good product. (That's to say nothing of the fact that they probably should have been doing subscriptions from the start)

I understand that this is frustrating - it is for all of us - but I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that dxv or rgg have at any point attempted to unfairly cheat customers out of money or done anything morally dubious at all. They've done their best with a frustrating set of circumstances.
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chrisjwmartin

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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #493 on: August 26, 2016, 04:37:37 pm »
0

The key problem was that the amount we were paid was a small fraction of the amount taken in. We somehow did not realize this until we'd already told MF we were done with them.
Did no one read the contracts, not even RGG's lawyers? Honestly, it stretches the bounds of credulity to ask us to believe that you and one of the biggest designer board games companies blithely signed the contracts without reading them, never mind without getting a lawyer to look them over.

If the subscription model fails, no-one who bought into it is ever owed anything, because it's a subscription! They buy a year of Dominion, they get a year of Dominion. The company, like some kind of honest entity, won't sell anyone subscriptions past where their contract ends.
That was not my point. My point was that if the subscription model fails, and your subsequent proxy goes back to selling expansions as at present, will you and they honour the purchases that have already been made and then cast aside? If not, I don't see what's stopping you from switching back and forth between purchases and subscriptions on an annual basis. Take money for purchases. Wipe purchases and take money for subscriptions. Wipe subscriptions and take money for purchases. Wipe purchases and take money...

Here's a simple question that doesn't need you to speak for anyone but yourself. You have already taken your share of my money for purchasing the online expansions once. If a subsequent proxy reverts to expansion-purchasing, will you agree to forego your personal cut for any expansions purchased by those of us who'd already bought them from Goko-MF?
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #494 on: August 26, 2016, 05:12:23 pm »
0

The key problem was that the amount we were paid was a small fraction of the amount taken in. We somehow did not realize this until we'd already told MF we were done with them.
Did no one read the contracts, not even RGG's lawyers? Honestly, it stretches the bounds of credulity to ask us to believe that you and one of the biggest designer board games companies blithely signed the contracts without reading them, never mind without getting a lawyer to look them over.

If the subscription model fails, no-one who bought into it is ever owed anything, because it's a subscription! They buy a year of Dominion, they get a year of Dominion. The company, like some kind of honest entity, won't sell anyone subscriptions past where their contract ends.
That was not my point. My point was that if the subscription model fails, and your subsequent proxy goes back to selling expansions as at present, will you and they honour the purchases that have already been made and then cast aside? If not, I don't see what's stopping you from switching back and forth between purchases and subscriptions on an annual basis. Take money for purchases. Wipe purchases and take money for subscriptions. Wipe subscriptions and take money for purchases. Wipe purchases and take money...

Here's a simple question that doesn't need you to speak for anyone but yourself. You have already taken your share of my money for purchasing the online expansions once. If a subsequent proxy reverts to expansion-purchasing, will you agree to forego your personal cut for any expansions purchased by those of us who'd already bought them from Goko-MF?

Donald has already said that he doesn't really bring any money in for Dominion Online, which is why he has also said that he wished it didn't exist sometimes.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #495 on: August 26, 2016, 05:16:56 pm »
+1


Okay, how about you go buy a house from someone, pay off your mortgage ... and then the seller announces that you have to pay rent.

That exists already (at least in USA), it's called property taxes.  You're always paying rent.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #496 on: August 26, 2016, 05:20:14 pm »
+1

Property taxes don't go to the seller.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #497 on: August 26, 2016, 05:35:21 pm »
+3

Legally speaking Goko was also a subscription right? You were subscribed to use Seaside for say, a day, then added onto that, however long Goko chose to give you with it using their right to terminate your account whenever.  (I'm kinda making up a day but if you bought Seaside and only got to use it for fourteen hours and didn't get your money back I feel like a small claims court judge would give you your money back probably).


When you buy a subscription based on trust like that you should kinda decide how much you trust the company, how much you believe in it, and whether it's worth the risk, and etc.  That's kind of what you have to do.  When you buy Spotify you know they're a big fish so there's some trust there.  Spotify could totally terminate your service on the basis of "one of your favorite artists asked for higher royalties and it's stressing us out", I bet seven nickels their ToS is written liberally enough to allow it, and then they could save some money, but you know they won't do that because reputation etc, and if they did I bet you would switch to Apple Music.

It's up to you to as a consumer to decide what level of transparency you expect from MF about the license expiration possibility, and how much compensation you think you deserve for losing the service.  MF has other products, so it's totally within their power to offer you an equal amount of financial credit matching your Dominion purchase on their other products, but they have chosen not to, as far as I know.  They could also give you some sort of refund.  But it sounds like you want to forgive MF more than that, that's fine.  But they knew the license might expire, and the revocation they are doing is analagous to the Spotify example.

There was no trust going on with Rio Grande Games when you bought the MF Dominion though.  I don't really see it.  There's no agreement with them.  I actually have a lot of sympathy for the notion that buying the physical board game and RGG also being able to sell and restrict an online license is double dipping, and most of the forum thinks I'm crazy for that, but blaming RGG for when MF stops extending your 1 day of seaside as generously as you'd hoped, I don't get it.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #498 on: August 26, 2016, 05:55:51 pm »
+2

I was very sad when I could no longer play Mario Kart 7 online. Nintendo just abruptly discontinued the service. Now, did I pay for an absolute right to Mario Kart 7 online forever and ever when I bought that game? No. Even though I hoped it would last forever and ever, Nintendo had the right to discontinue it at any time.

I guess I could play Mario Kart online still. It would just require me to buy an entirely new console, a new game, and even then, Nintendo can discontinue THAT version at any time.

Same thing with Online Dominion. That is the nature of this type of product. The online service, even if you pay for it once up front, is good for as long as the provider provides it. That's it.
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Re: Creating Dominion
« Reply #499 on: August 26, 2016, 06:07:34 pm »
0

Again I'm at one of these points where I can't tell if this is trolling or a serious conversation.
I'm not sure if you're a troll or just a raging asshole.
Oh of course, anyone who disagrees with you is "trolling". Because your opinions are so perfect, pre-ordained by the gods, that the only conceivable reason anyone could have for disagreeing with them is malice.

Someone creates a new account expressly for the purpose of posting an inflammatory complaint in a thread.  They fail to understand the purpose of the thread, fail to understand why many people think their opinion is wrong, and then accuse Donald of greed when he has said--possibly in this thread!--that he makes so little off the online version that he sometimes wishes it didn't exist.

Then when called out for trolling or being an asshole, they respond with an even more inflammatory post?  Yeah, that's trolling, dude.  And now I shall disengage entirely.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.
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